As most of you know, Alasken-Oz came down for a visit a few weeks ago, and Brent also was here one day during that visit. Oz has a 50 B&M built on a Ruger Alaskan. Here it is, we have shown it previously.



Now the one thing that intrigued me from the beginning about this rifle is it's 3.4 inch magazine. What this means is that Oz can load any .500 caliber BBW#13 NonCon, add the new Talon Tips, and they work slick as can be in the magazine. Pretty neat! And if I were not such a hard headed bastard over a Winchester M70, I would have myself one of these! But, I am just that hard headed, so this has been bugging me since Oz was here, until this morning I could not contain myself any longer!

My first thoughts were that I could take one of my coveted long action RUM Winchesters, the ones that the 500 MDM are built on, and just build myself a short 50 B&M on that long 3.6 inch magazine action! Easy! I already tried running 50 B&M through a 500 MDM and they feed and function perfectly, retain, the works, zero issues.

Then I started thinking, maybe I can seat the BBW#13 NonCons out further, to that first groove, crimp them in and increase case capacity this way. So I made up some dummy rounds.



Worked through a 500 MDM like butter, slick and easy. OK then I decided, why not make up some live rounds, and go ahead and shoot them in the 500 MDM and see what happens? I suspected the LONG bullet jump from a 2.25 inch 50 B&M to the 2.8 inch 500 MDM chamber might cause an accuracy issue, but let's try and see what happens.

So I did just that this morning. I started with the same exact loads high end for the 500 BBW#13 Solid and the 450 BBW#13 NOnCon, only seated out long like you see above. I new that velocity would have to drop on these because of the added case capacity, along with pressures as well. I used the tips throughout this test as well.

With 70/H-4198 (gives 2250 fps in standard 18 inch 50 B&M) gave me 2200 fps in the 500 MDM. 66/H-4198 gives me 2150 fps in the 18 inch 50 B&Ms, and seated out further gave me 2050 fps in the 500 MDM. Accuracy was very good--I am most likely responsible for the 500 gr SOlid being hi and slightly right here. 3 rds each.



OK--Encouraged by this accuracy which I did not expect, I loaded everything up two grains. Tried again. This time, the 500 Solid increased to 2100, and the 450 NonCon to 2250. Accuracy on the Solid held rather well--but the 450 was not so good, and POI between the solid and NonCon appeared to be more drastic?




OK, so I dropped the solid at this point out of the tests, as I was pretty sure as I increased velocity my accuracy was going to hell. I might have been shearing bands for all I know, with that much added bullet jump, over a 1/2 inch. So I went back, 2 more grains in the 450 to 74/H-4198. This should take it over 2300, and it did to 2307 fps. Accuracy still an issue.



So at this point I gave up on actually using the 500 MDM and shooting 50 B&M ammo through it. I figured that accuracy was going to be an issue, as I have done this before shooting 50 B&M Super Short in the 50 B&M rifles. Accuracy was poor there as well.

So then I got to thinking about that extra magazine length I had in the Win M70 RUM rifles, and decided that a 2.5 inch .500 caliber case would work out really nicely, and be able to use any of the standard NonCons available in .500 caliber, put the Talon Tips in, and it would work through the magazine just dandy. So I made a few dummy rounds up a little while ago, and I think there is going to be yet another .500 caliber cartridge available-- let me introduce you to the;

500 B&M

2.5 Inch RUM Case 450 BBW#13 NonCon with W-Talon Tip Added COL---3.50 Inches, room to spare in the magazine. Matching 500 BBW#13 Solid works, feeds slick as can be.



I figure 19 Inch Barrel here on this one. 450 BBW#13 NonCons at 2400 fps easy, followed with the 500 BBW#13 Solids at 2250-2300 easy. More than enough, and maintain a fairly small package. Will use a smaller contour barrel than comes on the 500 MDM to reduce weight as well. Same barrel contour as the 50 B&M.

I think I will put a reamer in the works Monday!

Just FYI
Ya'll have a good weekend!

Michael

So...after...ummm...2 years more or less you're going to do the reamer you talked me out of for the original 50 MDM case specification! These Talon tips do cause some interesting things to happen...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
So...after...ummm...2 years more or less you're going to do the reamer you talked me out of for the original 50 MDM case specification! These Talon tips do cause some interesting things to happen...

Yeah, but 2 yrs ago we were playing with that straight basic 375Ruger Brass for this.

Once again, Yes, the Talon Tips do cause some intriguing thoughts! LOL...... I am very intrigued with that extra 150 fps impact velocity at 50 yds with Talon Tips installed! Which, of course one can easy load first round up with a Talon tip, followed by solids or standard NonCons, which is exactly what I would do in the other B&M cartridges and the 500 MDM. But having a magazine full of Tipped NonCons is interesting to me.

M

Actually the .375 Ruger basic came after you nixed the shortened RUM case cause you figured there' be to much work to modify a non-RUM M70 to shoot the RUM case. But that's ok, the original 50 MDM was spec'd at 2.57" length with the 500's shallow shoulder...so ok I agree the 2.5" case is new.

Here's an idea we've discussed previously... Why not have the new reamer cut the 2.8" MDM length but as a straight case without the shallow shoulder...then you can shoot shorter cut cases in the new 50 B&M XL (Extra Long) chamber with the Talon Tips. Much like shooting a 458 WinMag in a 458 Lott chambered rifle. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. Spec the freebore at 0.252" and then cut your RUM cases somewhere between 2.5"-2.72" length...whatever length works best so that you can easily fit the Talon Tipped shorter case through the standard M70 RUM magazine. One multi-purpose chambering that'll eliminate any potential high velocity band abraiding that the 1"+ long freebore rifles seem to be having. All you'll need is 2.8" 50 B&M cylinder brass and your good to go. Keep it long, trim it shorter for Talon Tipped Raptors or standard FB NonCons, or trim it to 2.24" for your M70 WSM auctioned rifles.

Though this is not a voting issue...I vote for the 50 B&M XL...

Hmm

So the new plan is bigger, longer, faster?

That fits the B&M premise----



SSR

Yep... .500 caliber B&Ms to fit whatever magazine length your rifle has!

I have the dies for the 500 Kill All. It's the belted rum to .500"

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have the dies for the 500 Kill All. It's the belted rum to .500"

Belted RUM?

Jim
I can't remember what I did, or was thinking yesterday, much less longer than that?

Well, regardless of anything the 500 B&M is a few months down the road. First reamer--Which Dave owes me one now! HEH........ Rifle, then with the bigger action, smaller barrel contour will most likely need to send rifle to Wes for proper stock dimensions, since it is out of spec for both B&M and 500 MDM, which AI has already. So I am afraid stock will be the hold up and the longer wait--Wes?

Now moving back to tipped bullets working the magazines and blah blah blah

Here is a target the other day that I shot with my one of my 18 inch 458 B&Ms and the 295 BBW#13 LG seated deep, with the tips added. If I could shoot as good as RIP, then they would have all been in a smaller hole than this.

Michael,

Is 500 B&M going to be number one in the new series of 2.5" cases.

A "9.30 B&M" or "366 B&M" (2.5") would put a 210 Raptor over the "magic" 3000 fps.

My quest for a Winchester RUM needs to be stepped up a couple notches, or I may never find one.

CW

Michael,

The 500 B&M will be a very nice addition to your stable of cartridges regardless of what length you make the case.

I'm warming to the 2.5" case length as that would work very well in the M77 Ruger and M98 Mauser standard length actions and would allow the owner to shoot the 50 B&M cartridges with the bullets seated long in the same chamber.

Plus...the 430gr CEB MTH Copper HP Spitzer bullet would seat at the Seal Tite Band with plenty of room in the standard length action's magazine.

Your idea is a idea.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,

Is 500 B&M going to be number one in the new series of 2.5" cases.

A "9.30 B&M" or "366 B&M" (2.5") would put a 210 Raptor over the "magic" 3000 fps.

My quest for a Winchester RUM needs to be stepped up a couple notches, or I may never find one.

CW

Coyote;

For sure there won't be anything between 375-.500---In particular 458/474 is Jeffes AR territory, and would be a waste of time on the B&M part, as Jeffes ARs are the cats ass in those two. There is no need for a 416 as that is also Jeffe Territory, he was first, followed by Hornady/Ruger. 375? There is just no use for that caliber to begin with.

9.3? Hmmmmm? Well, there could be a place for that I suppose, and a 210 Raptor would start off at 3000, to go much further I am sure. As I am all over 3000 with the 9.3 B&M current, depending on the rifle 20 inches, 2950-2975 fps now! Yes, you might want to be on the lookout for a Win RUM action! As I will be also, as normal! Hmmmmm? Seems I already have a 9.3 Ultra, built on a RUM action, have it for sale, lost interest in the big Ultra? Maybe? I think it would have to be designated, as you suggest, 366 B&M! I like it. Very good suggestion! Could use the 255 NonCon as well, with tips added! That would probably be all over 2900 to 3000 itself.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,

Is 500 B&M going to be number one in the new series of 2.5" cases.

A "9.30 B&M" or "366 B&M" (2.5") would put a 210 Raptor over the "magic" 3000 fps.

My quest for a Winchester RUM needs to be stepped up a couple notches, or I may never find one.

CW

Coyote;

For sure there won't be anything between 375-.500---In particular 458/474 is Jeffes AR territory, and would be a waste of time on the B&M part, as Jeffes ARs are the cats ass in those two. There is no need for a 416 as that is also Jeffe Territory, he was first, followed by Hornady/Ruger. 375? There is just no use for that caliber to begin with.

9.3? Hmmmmm? Well, there could be a place for that I suppose, and a 210 Raptor would start off at 3000, to go much further I am sure. As I am all over 3000 with the 9.3 B&M current, depending on the rifle 20 inches, 2950-2975 fps now! Yes, you might want to be on the lookout for a Win RUM action! As I will be also, as normal! Hmmmmm? Seems I already have a 9.3 Ultra, built on a RUM action, have it for sale, lost interest in the big Ultra? Maybe? I think it would have to be designated, as you suggest, 366 B&M! I like it. Very good suggestion! Could use the 255 NonCon as well, with tips added! That would probably be all over 2900 to 3000 itself.

M

It would make a right smart 423 B&M as well...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

The 500 B&M will be a very nice addition to your stable of cartridges regardless of what length you make the case.

I'm warming to the 2.5" case length as that would work very well in the M77 Ruger and M98 Mauser standard length actions and would allow the owner to shoot the 50 B&M cartridges with the bullets seated long in the same chamber.

Your idea is a idea.

Jim, yes, I was also thinking about Oz's 416 Alaskan he converted to 50 B&M. That would work as well with the 500 B&M, short the tips, with the exception of a few bullets that would work easy, like the 365 Lever bullet.

I think I can cut and expand standard 300RUM brass as well, and that will be much easier to get than all 375 RUM, as for the 500 MDM.

But, the 3.6 inch magazine of the big Winchester RUM action is kicking it with room to spare. I was feeding these things through current 500 MDMs, I tried 3 of them, and they just gobble everything up slick as can be, you know it's right when you can't even feel the pickup and chambering of a cartridge, have to look and see they are so slick--they do it with the 500 MDM as well. Excellent rifles, no--Extreme rifles!

M

Michael,

There's a lot to like about the shorter cases in a longer action. Jeffe and the boys in Oz have proven the RUM based AccRel cases work just fine through the M77 Ruger actions. And there have been quite a few 404 Jeffery chambered M98 Mausers built in the last 10 years that feed slickers snot as well.

I think this is headed in the right direction.

Michael,

What you say is true...shorter case/cartridges often feed extremely well in a magazines designed to accomodate the 'next step up' in cartridge OAL.

If I measured one of the 360gr W350 Raptors with the W Talon installed correctly yesterday...the bullet seated in the 2.5" case will have a COAL with plenty of room to fit within and feed from the M77's 3.4" magazine. I think I came up with a 3.345" COAL...

Heck...it's the perfect case length to use with one of the pre-64 M70s factory chambered in one of Winchester's standard length belted magnum cartridges.

Jim

Two reamers are now in the works for the 500 B&M and the 366 B&M. Both 2.5. So we will see.

As for .500 caliber I have a 300 and a 335 BBW#13 NonCon coming, both with bands moved forward, short nose projections, will take WTalon Tips, and work like a charm in 50 B&M, 500 B&M, and of course 500 MDM. That 300 might even possibly work in a super short with tip--have to see. For sure will work with anything the 350 Raptor will work, Ruger 3.4 mags for sure.

Win Standard belted actions will not work with the fat RUM cases--Will not retain.


Cross, things for you left on Fed Ex today!

Michael

Michael,

I understand a M70 chambered in 270 is a preferred choice for rechambering to 375 Ruger via-a-vis one chambered for a standard mag. It had something to do with how Winchester cut the rails for the standard mag that made it difficult for the rails to retain the Ruger case. So if that's the choice for rail profiling for the Ruger case I reckon it would also be true for the RUM case.

Maybe that's why the M77 works so well with the shortened RUM cases...slightly larger case dimensions at base and shoulder but similar rail profiles. Just a thought...

Capo

Would that be a Pre-64 or a Classic M-70 action?

SSR

Michael,

Regarding the shorter nose profile ,500s...will we potentially have the same reduced penetration that you had with the 1st round of short nose .458 LG bullets vis-a-vis the same weight slightly longer nose profile bullets? Or am I thinking of the FN Solids rather than the HP NonCons?

quote:

Cross, things for you left on Fed Ex today!

Michael

Thanks, am waiting with bated breath.


SSR

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Regarding the shorter nose profile ,500s...will we potentially have the same reduced penetration that you had with the 1st round of short nose .458 LG bullets vis-a-vis the same weight slightly longer nose profile bullets? Or am I thinking of the FN Solids rather than the HP NonCons?

The short nose/long nose profile penetration was with the solids. I have not seen any indications that this follows with the NonCons. Only Solids.

M

SSR,

That was in reference to the longer post-64 Classic M70 action.

I'm not sure that it relates to the shorter pre-64 M70 action... But in my non-professional opinion, I would think it would be easier to correctly profile the rails of a non-mag pre-64 to either the Ruger or shortened RUM case as you'd have more of a blank slate to start with. Again, purely personal opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Regarding the shorter nose profile ,500s...will we potentially have the same reduced penetration that you had with the 1st round of short nose .458 LG bullets vis-a-vis the same weight slightly longer nose profile bullets? Or am I thinking of the FN Solids rather than the HP NonCons?

The short nose/long nose profile penetration was with the solids. I have not seen any indications that this follows with the NonCons. Only Solids.

M

That's good... I'm on my iPad and didn't have access to my notes from your many tests.

Yes still waiting on those 300 gr for the 500MDM. Really curious to see what they will on a frontal shot on zebra. Under 4 weeks now, getting pretty stoked.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Yes still waiting on those 300 gr for the 500MDM. Really curious to see what they will on a frontal shot on zebra. Under 4 weeks now, getting pretty stoked.

I think the 335 right now is better choice, at least until I get test work completed. New bullets should be here in a few days, maybe by first of next week. It won't take long to get them up to a workable speed for you either.

M

Couple of small things. Talked with Dan this morning--running the new 300 and 335 BBW#13 NonCons end of the week, .500 caliber. Will have next week, quickly getting them up to speed in both 500 MDM and 50 B&M as well. Immediately doing terminals once I have the velocity up.

Next, I have been slack on uploading data for some cartridges on the B&M site. There were actually 3-4 that needed updating, between then, and now, the only one I can remember is the 458 B&M and some of the new 295 #13 LG data. All data on the website is coded like this-- 6192012 at the end. Basically just the date-- 6/19/2012. So if looking at the website and checking the last time data was uploaded, look for the date of the data. Easy!

Seems there was something else?


Oh well!
Michael

A successful trip to the city was made, now am stocked with Federal 210s and
LILGUN.

have to order some barnes 300s then am all set.

its kinda like Christmas eve--

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
SSR,

That was in reference to the longer post-64 Classic M70 action.

I'm not sure that it relates to the shorter pre-64 M70 action... But in my non-professional opinion, I would think it would be easier to correctly profile the rails of a non-mag pre-64 to either the Ruger or shortened RUM case as you'd have more of a blank slate to start with. Again, purely personal opinion.

Thanks

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
A successful trip to the city was made, now am stocked with Federal 210s and
LILGUN.

have to order some barnes 300s then am all set.

its kinda like Christmas eve--

SSR

According to Fed Ex, they say that Christmas is Thursday, 6/21/2012?????

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
A successful trip to the city was made, now am stocked with Federal 210s and
LILGUN.

have to order some barnes 300s then am all set.

its kinda like Christmas eve--

SSR

According to Fed Ex, they say that Christmas is Thursday, 6/21/2012?????

Will make sure that someone is at ranch with milk and cookies that afternoon--------ya just never know about them damned reindeer. They show up at the strangest times.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
A successful trip to the city was made, now am stocked with Federal 210s and
LILGUN.

have to order some barnes 300s then am all set.

its kinda like Christmas eve--

SSR

According to Fed Ex, they say that Christmas is Thursday, 6/21/2012?????

Will make sure that someone is at ranch with milk and cookies that afternoon--------ya just never know about them damned reindeer. They show up at the strangest times.

SSR

One More Day and It's Christmas at the Cross Ranch!

mean while--back at the Ranch---

Santa claus's minions showed up.. All is super, its freaking tiny, and cute. Michael must feel like an OB.

With any luck will get it out this evening.



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
mean while--back at the Ranch---

Santa claus's minions showed up.. All is super, its freaking tiny, and cute. Michael must feel like an OB.

With any luck will get it out this evening.



SSR

I told you Santa was going to pitch up at your place today! Hey, no one can really understand until you lay hands on one eh?

Michael

Michael

its as light and agile as a M94 30-30 and hits harder than a 45-70

Like you said--you have to experience it to believe it

Sum-bitch this is sweet-

Boomy

stop trying to invent the Millennium Falcon and build one of these.

SSR

On first review I can load to BBW#13 solids down and a TT non con on top with another TT Non-con slipped in

that = 2 TT non -cons and 2 #13 solids or non-cons underneath






SSR

On further reflection

Tom Horn would have sold his sister for this Lil rifle--

and I am a HUGE Tom Horn fan.

SSR

So, Cross, I can assume you are pleased?

Michael

the rest of the world doesn't know what they are missing----

Shall we keep it a secret?

Seriously, In you opinion how high can you go with the 458SS On DG I know i would be happy on cats, american bison, moose grizzly and brown bear.is it an Cape buffalo and hippo cartridge? -given the CEB BBW#13 solids and non-cons?

SSR