quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Been thinking about an old idea. With that .458" shoulder diameter it got me thinking it would be interesting albeit highly impractical unless a custom cast bullet for regular use but in a test of concept to take a 300 grain 458 Raptor and reduce the solid bore rider end to about .430" and you could fire a .458" projectile on an 06 case with a custom bullet. Like the 22 LR but a much larger centerfire.

Boomie I think you need another cup of coffee!

You don't like a super size 22 LR?

I think I also better butt out on the rebated .458 "Butt-Tail Bullet" propelled by a .30-06 case.
Will be loading and shooting CEB 237-grain tipped ESP Raptors in the 1:10" twist .375/404JS-2012, while waiting for 400 Whelen brass.
I also have a new 500 Bateleur to work up loads for.
I want to get the .510-cal/535-grainer started slow and finishing fast.

Here's hoping Rusty does some more load development with the "400 Whelen Petrov 2003"
meanwhile.
I am feeling psychic.
I predict AA 2230 to be his next powder with 350-grainers.

quote:

I predict AA 2230 to be his next powder with 350-grainers

That is amazing. If you can "see" the results, it will save a lot time and money.

I predict that your next prediction will be the arrival of 400 gr. Hornady DGX bullets.

Oops. Crystal ball just went on the fritz.
Guess I'll just have to wait for report of results on Rusty's time and money,
at least that saves some of mine.

Looks like you can get 4200 ft-lbs easily with about any 350-grainer and about any medium fast powder suitable for .223 Rem. or .458 WinMag.
The 400 Whelen is not finnicky, eh?
About 2325 fps is all that is needed with 350-grainer.
That sized-down Speer .416/350-grainer Mag Tip should be quite the all-around big game bullet at that velocity.
Ditto the Swift, but you will need to add some compressed RL-10x with the Swift .4095"/350-grainer, since so much gas is blowing by the undersized bullet?
Still worked pretty good, eh?

Heck, why not just stick to .416-caliber bullets sized down?
Quite the variety.
I see I am going to have to get a bullet sizer.
If yours is a .411" sizer and they spring back to .412", then maybe I will get a .411" sizer and a .410" sizer.
Or is yours a .412" sizer and they stay at .412" after sizing?

BTW, the sample of sized-down mag Tips you gave me seem to be closer to .411" than .412",
but maybe my caliper is not as accurate as yours.
I have about half a thousand of those Speer Mag tips from a local shop close-out years ago.
I bought them for only about $10 for a box of 50.
So they are going to find some good use finally.

So here's hoping the Hornady .410-cal/400-grainers will be actually .410"-diameter, at least.

400 grains at 2150 fps: That's only 4104 ft-lbs. KE, already bettered by the 350-grain load, but classic killer ballistics.
Duplicates the 450/400 NE.
400 grainer at 2200 fps would be 4296 ft-lbs.
Come on Rusty, you can do it! I am taking notes.

When you get done with that, how about the Barnes TSX .411/300-grainer?
300 grainer at 2530 fps gives 4260 ft-lbs.
300-grainer at 2550 fps gives 4332 ft-lbs.
You can stop there, that beats classic .375 H&H ballistics.

This sure is fun! Your time and money!
BTW, I really like Hodgdon Extreme and Alliant/Reloder powders.
Gotta keep my inventory down.
But I do allow AA powders too.
And Winchester 748 might be magic in the 400 Whelen, so I got some of that too, hint, hint.

RIP,

I have been sizing the Speer .416 down to .411. I started out with a .411 Lee sizer that i got from Ranch Dog when he was still in business. I had trouble with them springing back to .412-.4125 making for a snug fit. I just got a .410 sizer. They are all holding at .411 after a week of sitting.

As for powders that are perfect in the 400 you are right in that it is not finicky. Anything in the 4895/3031 burn rate area is good. I think one would be hard pressed to find a better powder than H4895 in the 400 Whelen.

Mine has shot well with H4895, IMR 3031, RL15, and IMR 4198. It did well accuracy wise with IMR 4064 but the velocities were pretty low. I was having trouble with getting good reading due to the light one day when I was chronographing RL15 loads. It came in on the slow side when I did get some readings. I need to do more testing with it.

Mart

Mart,
Thanks, I will certainly be trying the H4895, but if Rusty saves me some time and money on that one too, I will just commence shooting proper loads with it.
I like the Lee push-through bullet sizers. Have about 10 of them from .405" down to .356", and one .510" Lee sizer. They work like champs.
Most of my bigger bullet sizers are the Lyman Lubrisizer type with nose punches, but those are for cast lead only, I reckon, not stout enough for jacketed bullets or monometal copper.
Looks like I'll be getting some more Lee bullet sizers (.410", .411", and .412") to add to my collection.
(The .412" would be for cast lead bullets too.) Three passes .416 > .412 > .411 > .410.
Then hopefully they stay at .411.
The .410" Lyman Lubrisizer I have is just not strong enough for jacketed, and too small for cast lead.

Since you have a 400 Whelen Petrov 2003 chamber,
if you have any 10-shot chronograph checks on any particular load let me post them at ammoguide.com, please, unless you want to do it.
Heck, even a 5-shot string will do. I'll start noting the number of shots averaged in comments there.
Powder lots vary.
Shilen barrels are best.
The more data the merrier.
Just need to note:

chronographed velocity and number of shots averaged
barrel length
bullet make and weight
powder type and charge weight
primer
Cartridge overall length
whether case is not full, full, or compressed
brass case make

Ditto anyone else with the right chamber, even Michael Petrov.
Post loads at: http://ammoguide.com/?catid=863

RIP,

I have things kind off tore up for a living room remodel but will get some data off to you soon. I will have to pick my way through the stuff we moved into the family room to get to my notes.

We moved everything except the computer desk, couch and TV out . Those we will move back and forth as we finish painting and lay the laminate floor.

I took last week off to finish the work and ended up getting called for interviews and training for a new job. I start a new job March 4th after 14 years in my current job. It is a little scary but I am excited and the new job will be considerably less stress. It's also a two week on/two week off schedule so will get some good off time to get to the range and do some hunting.

Mart

Perfection:





This one uses the same headspace gages as the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003.
The differences:

The max brass length is that of the 30-06, 2.494", so the chamber is lengthened 0.015" beyond that,
to allow for case stretch in firing, so chamber overall is 0.008" longer than Petrov version.

The Neck-2 is the same as the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003: .433"-brass/437"-chamber,
but the Neck-1 is tightened up from .437"-brass/.441"-chamber to .434"-brass/.438"-chamber.
This allows .001" taper in the chamber neck, for easy extraction, even if loaded ammo necks are parallel.
There is 0.004" of slop built in at both Neck-1 and Neck-2 for sporting/hunting functionality.
There is still 0.020" of shoulder step-down to neck -1 in chamber, and 0.021" in brass.
That is great. No one can badmouth that.

The parallel-sided free-bore is increased from 0.188" long to 0.300" long.
I can load the Barnes 300-grain TSX as long as I like.
Should be optimized for this bullet, and it will work well with all other bullets that I know of.

This ought to work with any full length brass.
Max brass length is 2.494", trim-to length is 2.484".

I am thinking the RCBS 400 Whelen Petrov-PTG of 2003 dies will also work just fine with this chamber reamer.
If not, I will get Hornady Custom Dies to make some to fit.

About that little bit of extra free-bore: Elmer Keith would approve, I am sure.
This should surely let the 400 Whelen beat the classic ballistics of both .375 H&H and 450/400 NE 3".
That is plenty good.

Lee is not taking any custom orders right now, apparently due to being swamped by Obama-gun-mania fallout.
They do have the .410" sizer available for only $24.98 as an off-the-shelf item.
Will have to wait on the .411" and .412" sizers, but maybe the .410" sizer from Lee is all I need.
I do have a pound-through version of the .410" sizer, found it after rummaging around.
Now getting the more refined push-through version to use in a press instead of with a hammer.

Mart,
Here is what QuickLOAD says about H4895 and 400-grain Woodleigh, should be similar for 400-grain Hornady DGX, if Rusty ever gets any.
100% powder burn and near 40% thermodynamic efficiency with H4895 is outstanding!



Looks like impossible to get excessive pressure with H4895, because you could not compress the powder that much.
But take the prediction with a grain of salt, as QuickLOAD itself disclaims.

Might be only a 105% load that gets you over 2200 fps with a 23.6" barrel.

Rusty,
If you get 400 grainers up to 2200 fps, you can quit there.

RIP,

That is interesting. The load I worked up to is 58 grains of H4895 under the Woodleigh 400 grain round nose. My barrel is 24 inches and the velocity I am averaging is 2150. Thanks for running the Quick Load. I guess I need to get Quick Load and learn to use it. I am some what of a techno tard, ambling along on the information gravel road.

Mart

Ron,
Is the .433 brass dia. for the sizing die? If the neck thickness is less than .012 there will not be enough tension to retain the bullet. I would like to see a sizing die ID of .422 and let the expander ball of .408-.409 determine the ID of the case neck. This would allow all of the known neck thicknesses to give the case enough bullet pull to retain bullets from .4095 to .412. If this much movement causes work hardening the the brass can be annealed. I think the worst case scenario is the one to design for.

Rusty

Mart,
Try placing your basic brass in a cool dark environment and see if they will reproduce.

Mart,
QL was right on your time and money there.
Now, how full was the case or how much compressed was the powder charge, in your estimate? Note 3.250" COL used in QL. Was that about like yours?

Rusty,
The reloading die tricks will follow.
I knew I should not have added that extraneous comment about ".433 Neck Resize" on the reamer drawing.
That would be the max neck-1, and hopefully neck-2 the same, on loaded ammo.

Like Paul K said, Hornady dies might be 3-die with no expander ball, just a decapper in the FL die, then the second die is a neck expander/belling die, to be applied as needed.

We'll gitterdun right eventually.
Reloading die specs are another can of worms, eh?

Great suggestion to Mart, if only Norma brass was like mushrooms:

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
Mart,
Try placing your basic brass in a cool dark environment and see if they will reproduce.

Ron,

Your sizer is now part of a 3 die set. I removed the expander ball and replaced it with decapping pin retainer from an RCBS pistol die. I already have a Lyman M die for 41 cal. This will be the way I will use it until I get my dies replaced. I like using the M die on several bottle neck cartridges that I load for. I find that not using an expander ball in the sizing die, and expanding with the M die, reduces the runout when the bullet is seated.

RIP,

I pulled a bullet to check. At 58 grains, the powder comes up to the shoulder. It is not a compressed load. Not far from it but not compressed. My OAL is 3.250.

Rusty,

I am willing to try your suggestion but have some doubts as to whether or not it will work.

Mart

quote:

I am willing to try your suggestion but have some doubts as to whether or not it will work.

So far, not much else is working on getting good 400W brass.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
Ron,

Your sizer is now part of a 3 die set. I removed the expander ball and replaced it with decapping pin retainer from an RCBS pistol die. I already have a Lyman M die for 41 cal. This will be the way I will use it until I get my dies replaced. I like using the M die on several bottle neck cartridges that I load for. I find that not using an expander ball in the sizing die, and expanding with the M die, reduces the runout when the bullet is seated.

Good work.
That will do nicely until Hornady makes the proper 3-die set.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:
RIP,

I pulled a bullet to check. At 58 grains, the powder comes up to the shoulder. It is not a compressed load. Not far from it but not compressed. My OAL is 3.250.

Rusty,

I am willing to try your suggestion but have some doubts as to whether or not it will work.

Mart

So would you call that a 99% case fill or a 100% case fill?
Can you hear or feel any powder movement in the case when you shake one next to your ear?
We see that QL is off on the case fill percentage.

That is the next load needing to be posted at ammoguide:

1. Chrono readings?
2. Brass make?
3. Primer make?
That is all we need when Mart digs out the data,
assuming this is correct:
3.250" COL and 24" barrel, 58.0 grains of H4895, Woodleigh .411/400-grain RNSP Weldcore.

Of course Rusty is dying to spend his money and time at his personal range, with some Hornady .410/400-grain DGX bullets.
At least he doesn't have to pay the range fees I do.

RIP,

The case is 98-99% full I'd say. I can feel and hear just a slight bit of powder movement when I shake it.

My chronograph readings were 2160 fps for three groups of 5 rounds. The brass was Qual Cart and the primer was the old Winchester 120. I have a lot of them. I used some Hornady 400 grain .410 blems from Midway with the same load but did not chronograph them. They shot to the same POI as the Woodleighs and with similar accuracy (1.25 inch group).

Mart

Mart,
Excellent.
I will post your load at www.ammoguide.com as the fourth load posted there, unless sumbuddy else has added more.
Now all we really need is a "fast" load with the 300-grain .411-cal TSX.

Mart,
Did I get anything wrong? Do you think I need to edit the remarks in anyway?



Great loads so far for deer, moose, brown bear, elephant ... just need the varmint load now.

RIP,

That is excellent. That load is just as you stated, a gentle giant. Out of my 8.5 pound rifle it recoils a bit more than my 35 Whelen of the same weight but less than my 375 H&H which weighs in at 9.5 pounds. Just a big solid push really.

I would love to take this load along with some solids to Africa. I would feel comfortable with it for everything up to and including elephant.

The trajectory on this load as I have it currently zeroed is +2" at 100, -2" at 200 and -21 inches at 300 yards. Not a flat shooter by any means but entirely capable of a 300 yard shot. Etta took her caribou at about 250 yards with it. I instructed her to hold 16 inches high and the shot found it's mark perfectly.

I expect the 350 grain bullets to flatten the trajectory out a bit and I would imagine the 300 grain Barnes TSX (another good grouper in my rifle) would flatten out considerably. Components are a bit pricey so these tests have to be spread out as I can afford them. Gives me something to day dream about when I should be working.

I'll keep you updated as I work up more loads. One of the tests I want to run is to wring out the 300 grain TSX at longer ranges, say 300-400 yards.

Mart

I chronographed some loads today with AA 2230 and the 350 Speer. The results show very erratic velocities, 300+ fps variation. Not going to waste time on it any more.
Preliminary testing of W748 has begun. No velocities yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Rusty,

Here is QL for your .411/350-grain Speer Mag Tip and Winchester 748 powder.
I got an average bullet length of 1.251" by measuring your product.
And the diameter I get is somewhere between .411" and .412".
I am calling them .411", as they should be.
I am also calling the seating depth 0.475" +/- .0250".
So the COL is 3.266" assuming 2.490" brass length and crimped in the middle of the cannelure.
Even with shorter brass, if you load them to 3.266" COL and don't crimp, should be roughly the same for velocity and pressure.



And you could interpolate to a midpoint between these 300-grain and 400-grain bullet loads for an estimate on your homemade 350-grainers:





From Mart's load with H4895 and 400-grain Woodleigh in QC brass, we saw that QL was very close to actual on velocity, but it was way off on prediction of case filling.
A minor foible to be checked out by actual loading and shooting,
but it still seems that the velocities and likely the pressures are good.

I was hesitating on H4895 because of the heavy compression QL was indicating to get the velocities desired.
Mart proved that the load for velocity desired was not even compressed.

Win748 (ball), H335 (ball), and H322 (extruded) seem to be among the best by QL predictions.
Add H4895 Extreme for the 400 grainers, but it is a bit slow for the 300 grainers.

H4895 with Rusty's 350-grainer, QL prediction for 23.6"-barreled 400 Whelen Petrov 2003:



It appears that H4895 is too slow for top velocity with the 350-grainer also,
unless you use an actual 105% compressed load, that might be about same powder charge as the 111%-113% compressed loads predicted by QL,
somewhere around 63.0 grains.
Kids: Don't try this at home. Rusty is an adult and does not need supervision.

Powder lots can vary a lot, eh?
Z-Hat claimed this for the .411 Hawk, which is really not significantly different from the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003:
.411 Hawk 25" barrel:
300 gr bullet ... H4895 64.0 gr ..... 2553 fps
325 gr bullet ... H4895 64.0 gr ..... 2479 fps
350 gr bullet ... IMR4064 61.0 gr ... 2366 fps
360 gr bullet ... AA2230 57.0 gr .... 2281 fps
400 gr bullet ... RL-15 57.0 gr ..... 2159 fps

But Rusty says the AA2230 is all over the place with 350-grainer ... So scratch that powder.
Looking into my crystal ball: Expect loads to be posted at ammoguide.com using W748 and 350-grain MagTip.

I shot some 350 Speers with W748 today. I worked up to 65 gr, using RP cases and WLRM primers. The pressure was not the limiting factor, case capacity was. It is mildly compressed. The col is still 3.250.
Av. vel. - 2141
SD - 21
ES - 62
Accuracy was excellent, recoil not punishing. It will take a faster powder to get 2300 fps.

Rusty:
10 round average, eh?

I will add that to ammoguide.com as a warning to others on what to expect in the "400 Whelen Petrov 2003" with Win748.

Holy cow!
QuickLOAD was way off on that one!

Don't believe I have ever chronographed any "Win748."
"Loser748" is a more apt name for the powder.

Thanks for saving me some time and money on that powder!

Loaning my dies to you has worked out great. Feeling out the powders with 350-grain Mag Tips first is a great idea.

BTW I passed the the 350-grain Speer Mag Tips that you had sized to .411-.412 through the Lee .410-caliber bullet sizer and they did not seem to change much.
They are closer to .411 than .412 for sure after that.

I cannot force the .416 Mag Tip through the .410 sizer with a standard press AmmoMaster for fear of breaking the press loose from its mounting.
I might be able to use the hammer-through version in a large bench vice instead of an arbor press, will try that ...

I am out of the 350's now. I will have to order more before any further testing.
The preliminary testing of the 300 TSX has started. I am running out of room for RL-10x due to the length of the bullet. 62 gr. is compressed about half of the length of the neck. Chronograph results so far (4 shots) are around 2450 fps. I know we all wanted 2500+, but maybe 2450 won't bounce off of a deer or elk or bear or boar or.... I have 10 loaded, will take them to the range for further testing. That is the end of my 10X for now.

Rusty,
I will drop off a hundred of those bullets next time I pass through Falls of Rough,
KY for you to resize for yourself, and another hundred for you to resize for me,
if you don't mind.

quote:

I cannot force the .416 Mag Tip through the .410 sizer with a standard press AmmoMaster for fear of breaking the press loose from its mounting.

I have the same issue with my RockChucker. What I found is I simply adjust the sizing die to about 4 or 5 locations. So a resize in 4 or 5 steps. Setting the die to allow me to use the cam over feature of the press. Yes it adds some time. But removes stress on everything. Besides I'm not doing 100s at a time.

RIP,

To get my Speer .416s through the sizing die I had to start with the die screwed out quite a ways to allow me to make use of the lower end of the lever stroke. Then screw the die in a ways and do it again. It takes me about three times of doing that to get the bullet sized. They push pretty easy at the end of the stroke but it's a pain having to back the die out and screw it back down for every bullet. Once I get my press mounted solid on my new reloading desk I should be able to push through on one stroke. Right now I have my press mounted on a stand that is welded to a truck rim.

I used to have the stand mounted to the concrete floor of the family room but since we tiled down there I don't want to put holes in the tile. My garage floor has in floor heat so I can't drill and mount anything to the floor for fear of hitting on of the heat lines.

I'll have to try my .411 Lee die. It seems like they didn't go through that hard because I had it mounted on the same stand and didn't have to move the die up and down.. Might have to do the .411 first then go down to the .410 for the final size.

I suspected when you guys started talking about trying 748 that it would come in on the slow side. I tried IMR 4064 with the Hawk 350 grain bullets and got pretty low velocities. The loads were 58, 59, 60, and 61 grains and the highest velocity was 2084 with 61 grains. Winchester 748 is slower yet than 4064 so I would expect less velocity.

I think the optimum powders are in the 3031/4895 range with 4198 on the fast side and IMR 4895 on the slow end. I have yet to try H335 but think it might do the trick. BL-C2 was a disappointment. It runs right with 748 for burn rate. It's a shame. I have a bunch of it.

My Sunday afternoon thoughts.

Mart

I made a 2 in. diameter threaded ring for my sizing die so I could use it in a 1 ton arbor press bolted to a very sturdy bench. They go through in one pass. I can do 50 bullets in about 10 minutes once they are lubed. It would be faster if I drilled a hole under the die for bullets to pass through, but since I consider the setup as temporary I hate to put a hole in the bench. Also, the punch is not attached to the ram and has to be pulled from the die each time. I have looked at modifications to the ram, but, again, it is temporary.

Ha Ha Ha!
The .410" Lee hammer-through die works great in a bench vice.
Lubed with STP Oil Treatment (tip from prof242) the .416 Mag Tip Speer bullets are easily cranked through.
And they spring back to 0.411".
I bet I can resize any .416-caliber bullet to .411 with this setup.

I'll still bring you bullets, Rusty, but you don't need to resize any for me.
I can handle it on my own.

quote:

I can handle it on my own.

Good work, grasshopper.

Went to the range today with the following results:
Load - 62 gr RL-10x, R-P case, WLR primer, 300 gr TSX
Av. vel. - 2402 (8 rnd.)
sd - 22
ES - 63
I am beginning to suspect my Chrony's veracity and reliability. The velocities are noticably different depending on location, light, and phase of the moon. I fired 10 shots today and only received 8 velocities.

A bullet fairy visited last night when I slept. Gracias. Now, if the big-bore-double-rifle fairy would take notice of my need,....

Bullet Fairy? That's a good one. Bullet Fairies don't collect teeth do they?
I'll see if the Chronograph Fairy will drop off an Oehler next time.
Thanks for the good work.
Finally some TSXs have been fired, though not quite ready to publish, eh?
The Bullet Fairy has TSX's too.

My QuickLOAD is very bad for the new lots of RL-10X.
I tried approximating it with the discontinued RL-12.
That predicts 2491 fps for 62.0 grains,
2531 fps for 63.1 grains.

Maybe H335 or H322 or cram a case as full of H4895 as you can with a TSX sitting on top?

Does the Powder Fairy need to visit?
The Powder Fairy really likes H322.
Those tiny little extruded grains meter as well as a ball powder.

(Load development by proxy.)

This keeps getting more interesting, I drop by once a week and takes a while to catch up .

You guys my be aware of this but any tough resizing job, bullet or brass I use Anhydrous Lanolin as a lube, I have a hair dryer in the shop and it helps to heat it up a bit.

Hi Michael,
For bullets, I will try the anhydrous lanolin, thanks for the tip.
There was no tough resizing of brass here,
it was just the expander ball sticking in the bottom of the AHR cases where the web of the case was so thick, the internal diameter of the case in the bottom was too small for the ball.
No problem if the expander ball is removed and a universal decapper is used in the FL sizer die,
then a neck sizing die.
In fact that is better all around for all cases for concentricity.

Now, how about a Michael Petrov load, or two, or three to post at ammoguide.com?
Your best for the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003?
With your permission, thanks in advance.

1. Barrel length.
2. Cartridge case make.
3. Primer specification.
4. Powder specification and charge weight.
5. Is the loaded case not full, full, or compressed?
6. Bullet make and weight.
7. BC of bullet if known.
8. Cartridge Overall Length.
9. Chronographed velocity for 5 or 10 shots.
10. Any comments on the load desired to be recorded for posterity, such as accuracy, uniformity, or any sort of bragging, etc.

I'll post it and show it here.

The Cartridge Overall Length for the loads below: 3.225"
These are for the Barnes TSX .411/300-grainer.

Start pressure of 4500 psi is my guess.
23.6" barrel like Rusty's and mine.

Short brass or full length brass, no matter, just COL matters:

Max loads predicted by QL:

RL-7 53.4 grains >>> 2450 fps
H322 Extreme 58.8 gr >>> 2540 fps
H335 (Ball) 62.4 gr >>> 2549 fps

The 3.225" COL is my estimate for 400 Whelen Petrov 2003 throating. Fine tune for accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
Went to the range today with the following results:
Load - 62 gr RL-10x, R-P case, WLR primer, 300 gr TSX
Av. vel. - 2402 (8 rnd.)
sd - 22
ES - 63

Above load COL = 3.280"
Compressed load, according to Rusty.
8 rounds chronographed is good enough for me to post at ammoguide.com,
as it looks valid.
5 to 10 rounds is good enough.
RL-10X is good for all weights 300-400-grain bullets.
Perfect for 350-grainers, maybe a little slow for 300-grainers.

Some other powders with the 300-grain TSX:
Being psychic, I communicate with all the Reloading Fairies,
and they say to expect some 300-grain TSX loads for the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003
to be tested whenever the weather at Falls of Rough, KY allows, using an Oehler 35P and
RL-7, H335, and H322.