RIP,

I am headed up to the Slope for two weeks (assuming I don't have to hold over for a third) but have a bunch of 400 Whelen loads to test when I get back. I have four different 350-360 grain bullets loaded with IMR 3031 and RL15. IMR 3031 is on the faster end of powders and RL15 on the slower end for the 400.

I also have some of the Barnes Super Solids, 400 grains and .411 diameter over H4895 to test.

To start, I am doing three shot test loads and depending on the accuracy and velocities will test the best loads further. Once I get this portion of the test completed I will try the H4895 with the same bullets. I don't have enough Norma brass to test all three powders in one session.

The bullets are Hawk 350 grain, Swift 350 grain A Frame (.4095), North Fork 360 grain and Speer 350 grain (resized .416)

I will be using 61, 62 and 63 grains of each powder. Elmer Keith recommended 63 grains of 3031 with a 350 grain bullet. I have tried up to 60 grains so far. I'll be using the same charge weights with RL15. I know it's slower than the 3031, but 63 grains of RL15 is the highest recommended load I've found so far for the 400 with 350 grain bullets. Sixty three grains is about as much as the case will take without pretty heavy compression.

It's a bit spendy doing these bullet tests so have to make the most of the components. After the H4895 loads I'll have 20 bullets each to test the best loads with.

I start my new job on the Slope tomorrow. After 14 years of dealing with inmates I'd had enough and hung it up Friday. I am looking forward to a full day at the range when I get back from the Slope. I've got a bunch of 308 and 30-30 to test for my wife's rifles as well.

Mart

Mart,
Congrats on the new job.
Will look forward to your results to post at ammoguide.com for the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003.
Yes, Elmer Keith had a longish free-bore on his, so a grain less than his load with 3031 and 350-grainer is reasonable.

Mart,
glad to hear about your new job... "bigger & better things", God Bless.

leverevolution is hard to beat in 30-30.

one day... when it stops rainin', i'll get back
to fireforming some .400 W. brass.

thanks for the load data guys.

I just received a notice from UPS that Quality Cartridge is shipping a package that will be here Monday.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
I just received a notice from UPS that Quality Cartridge is shipping a package that will be here Monday.

Hot-diggity-dog!

Rusty:

I see now that the proper "Resize Neck Diameter" is 0.008" smaller than the cartridge neck maximum diameter, for a 40-cal.
I will keep that in mind before ordering any custom dies for the 400 Whelen Berry 2013.

I learned this from looking at the JGS .408 Chey-Tac reamer drawing:



BTW, would you consider building a sub-9-pound .408 Chey-Tac on a CZ action for me if I sign a waiver of liability for you.
You know, hold harmless if the rifle you built goes kaboom on me?

Rusty has been at it again, his load was more accurate today, with RL-7 and the 300-gr TSX.
Mine was a little bit faster with H322, but not as accurate.
The ammoguide data entry asks for COL but does not show it when the load is displayed.
This makes me forget to mention COL in comments, expecting it to show up after entering it in the basic load info.
I should also mention that these velocities have not been corrected to true muzzle velocity, they are 15-feet-from-muzzle velocities.
Maybe I will get them all updated with COL's and corrections to true MV one of these days ...

COL on this load was 3.250":



COL on this one was 3.270":



So here are the loads to date:



It seems we are stuck at 2400 fps with 300-grain TSX.
Most accurate loads with 300-grainers seem to land around 2300 to 2350 fps.
A most universal COL seems to be about 3.250".

Looking into my crystal ball, Ramshot TAC powder might be the next one tried.
Hoping for 2530 fps with 300-grain TSX.
TAC?
It is a top powder to deliver top velocity with heavy bullets in the .223/5.56 Nato.
Maybe that will carry over to the 400grTSX in the 400 Whelen?

There is still a possibility to get a longer throat and seat the bullets out a wee bit more,
and some other minor changes ...
It is going to be an RIP-off of the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003.
So I better call it the 400 Whelen Petrov Berry of 2013: 400 WPB-2013.

It seems that Rusty has identified 3.250" is an accurate COL for the TSX 300-grainer in the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003.
I am going to stick with that:

TAC QuickLOAD for TSX 300-grainer and 3.250" COL:



Fingers crossed on that one, I know Rusty has an 8-pound jug of that powder.

I am just going to cram and compress as much H4895 as I can get into the case for my next loads with the 300-grain TSX.

IIRC, Michael Petrov got some high velocities with H4895 and a 300-grainer of some type.

Then maybe H4198 until I get some pressure signs of some sort.
From slow powder to fast powder, that should bracket the range pretty well.

If the Barnes TSX .411/300-grainer has a BC of only .280, then if it is traveling 2400 fps at the muzzle it will lose 15 fps of velocity in the first 15 feet after exit from the muzzle.
So to correct the latest TSX loads to true MV, add 15 fps to the 5 yard chronograph velocity ...
Then there is the matter of the other bullets' BC's ...

Never mind, I'll just leave everything in the table at chrono velocity instead of correcting it 5 yards to muzzle.
But I do need to make sure the COL for each load shows up in the comments section, if it is shown nowhere else ...

BTW, my excuse for Rusty shooting better than me Saturday:
He was using my reloading die set from CH4D, and I was using a seating die (Hornady) for a 405 Winchester as a make-do.

Of course his powder selection and COL also had something to do with it.

I reckon a package of 400 Whelen brass from Quality Cartridge has landed at Hilltop Gun Shop.
A review from roughone is anticipated.

I stopped by Rusty's shop yesterday.
The 400 Whelen brass was sent back to Quality Cartridge.
Reason: Internal donuts in the distal neck, just like pictured from the sample that gordief had, pictured again, above.
Also, Rusty tried working the brass with some neck turning and fired one piece of it twice.
After the first firing the primer pocket was loose.
After second firing a new primer could be seated by finger tip, no tools needed.

Just my gleanings from a few terse comments by Rusty.
Apparently the "final draw" was not done on this brass.
That could fix the donuts and I assume it would make the brass a bit longer if not trimmed.
Could it also produce some work hardening of the brass and prevent the loose primer pockets,
a sign of soft brass?

Rusty?

We wait some more for some reworked QC brass.
Rusty did decide to try the 280 Remington virgin brass and had good results.
280 Remington brass starts off longer than 2.500".
280 Remington: 2.540" max brass length spec
35 Whelen: 2.484" max brass length spec

280 Remington brass fire-forming makes for a case about .020" longer than what you get from the 35 Whelen brass fire-forming: Still short.
Maybe 2.450" instead of 2.430" after squaring up the case mouths?

Rusty?

I don't know what the 280R case neck wall thickness is after fire-forming to 400 Whelen.

Rusty?

Pics of the 280 Remington brass:

Loads with TAC are pretty good, not as fast as QL said.
Interesting finding is that use of a magnum primer really improves the uniformity of the load, and increases the velocity a little.
Spy camera work. Photographing documents. I felt like James Bond. Secret Agent Double-Naught-Nine.

quote:

Rusty did decide to try the 280 Remington virgin brass and had good results.

I used 280 brass blown out to 416 when I was loading for my 416PDK. Sorry can't tell you how much the neck thinned. No longer have one to measure either.

Paul,
Now I am sure that a .416/30-06 is possible.
Thin neck, minimal case body taper, and no case neck taper, could make for a shoulder better than that on the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003.
I am getting impatient with the 400 Whelen. Until I can get about 200 pieces of brass that will go a full 2.494" length,
I will just stick with 2.430" brass, made from 35 Whelen RP brass in the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003,
until suitable brass is available.
Last ditch: Cram all the H4895 I can get into an R-P case with F215 primer and 300-grain TSX.
If that is not better than 2400 fps then ...
I am getting really hot for a 9 or 10-pound .408 Chey-Tac now: 9-pound CZ 550 Magnum, 10-pound MRC PH.
Though it may be a tight fit, it should be fun, and with proper precautions, not too dangerous.
Sizing .411 bullets down to .408 should be no problem.
Maybe even .416 bullets could be sized down to .408 with a little extra work.
But there are plenty of .408 bullets now ...

Sporty!

I have some more TAC loads to try when the weather permits.

The 280 brass, expanded with a series of expanders comes out at 2.45. This afternoon I used the COW method to expand 52 new cases. I used 15 gr. of Universal Clays, filled the case with COW, compressed with a steel rod, and plugged with some cast bullet lube. I thought the slower Universal, as compared to Bullseye, would only partially expand the case. I would then anneal and refire for finished dimensions. To my suprise, the first firing was sufficient. Cases were lubed with RCBS case lube prior to firing. The length of the case was not measured, but after sizing there was plenty to trim to get to 3.484. The case neck is .008 thick. I included a once fired factory loaded 35 Whelen case(after annealing) and it gave approximately the same length, with a thickness of .009. This will be the way I form cases from now on. The only problem is case loss. There were 6 cases that partially disintegrated and one with a crack that would not trim away.

The results take the pressure off finding a good basic case. I can now sleep well, knowing that .060 of bullet will not be exposed to a harsh environment.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
I have some more TAC loads to try when the weather permits.

The 280 brass, expanded with a series of expanders comes out at 2.45. This afternoon I used the COW method to expand 52 new cases. I used 15 gr. of Universal Clays, filled the case with COW, compressed with a steel rod, and plugged with some cast bullet lube. I thought the slower Universal, as compared to Bullseye, would only partially expand the case. I would then anneal and refire for finished dimensions. To my suprise, the first firing was sufficient. Cases were lubed with RCBS case lube prior to firing. The length of the case was not measured, but after sizing there was plenty to trim to get to 3.484. The case neck is .008 thick. I included a once fired factory loaded 35 Whelen case(after annealing) and it gave approximately the same length, with a thickness of .009. This will be the way I form cases from now on. The only problem is case loss. There were 6 cases that partially disintegrated and one with a crack that would not trim away.

The results take the pressure off finding a good basic case. I can now sleep well, knowing that .060 of bullet will not be exposed to a harsh environment.

Rusty:
See the bold above. Typo?
Did you mean 2.484" for the trimmed length of the 280 Remington brass?
If so, then I will switch to that method too.

You did not anneal before the COW/Universal Clays/hard-lube-plug fire-forming?

6 lost out of 52: Maybe annealing the new 280 Remington R-P brass before fire-forming it would improve that.
Old saw: Anneal before necking up and after necking down.

Taking notes:
280 Remington brass
(anneal neck and shoulder?)
15 grains of Universal Clays
(disk of paper over powder?)
top off with COW
compress with 1/4" steel rod
hard-lube-plug in case mouth
fire-form

quote:

Paul,
Now I am sure that a .416/30-06 is possible

Did you type something? I keep seeing yellow.

Went through my bag of mistfit toys and found a 280 Rem (Norma) case necked to 416. Length was right at 2.5" Wall thinkness was .0085 if I read it correctly. Wasn't that too thin?

I used 3 tapered plugs and annealed before and after if I remember correctly.

I never tried using the extractor to headspace and fire forming the 416. I did try that on smaller PDKs and had some issue with thinning.

Paul,
Yes, brass is yellow. And some Mustangs.
I think messing with a .411/30-06 of any flavor is brave enough.
Thanks for the Norma measurement.
.008 to .009" seems to be what we are going to get.
I think Captech said they expect .0085" neck wall thickness at 2.5" length of their basic cylindrical, in 2014 AD.
Necking that down won't make it any thinner.
Might make it closer to .009".
I'll count on it.

Extractor headspacing: Wonder if Rusty had any protruding primers?

Neck up the annealed R-P 280Rem brass just eough to seat a backward .410 pistol bullet into it and jamb it into the rifling?
Here we go again ...

Blank-basic-cylindrical Captech brass sure would be nice.

Which CH4D dies are you guys using?
I checked their website and the list is extensive, I'd like to order dies but want the right ones.
I'm using the Petrov reamer, can any one lend a hand?
Rifle and reamer are at the Gunsmith right now, brass and bullets are in the mail. I may be shooting by the first of April if I can get the dies sorted out.
Thanks to all.

quote:

I'm using the Petrov reamer, can any one lend a hand?

So you decided to go Whelen vs PDK. I'm so hurt. Whelen For sure has a classier name. Good luck with the die choice I got confused as I went through the thread. How much more does CH$D charge to match the die to your neck thickness?

RIP the 416 version worked. I wasn't happy with the short brass and some of the longer bullets eating so much case. I was going to part it out and my buddy talked me into loaning it to him as he moved to Alaska. That was around 15yrs ago. He still uses it every year. Bullet of choice is the 340 Woodleigh. Since then lot more 410/411 bullet options. I prefer the 411 over the 416.

Snellstrom,
CH4D dies labeled "400 Whelen JGS" seem to match the PTG-Petrov reamer.
I have used them, and Rusty is using them now.
The specific JGS reamer drawing for the 400 Whelen that I posted above does indeed match the PTG-Petrov Reamer. Here it is again:



And here is the PTG-Petrov reamer that JGS wisely copied for their reamer 3 years after PTG-Petrov based it on a chamber cast of a Griffin & Howe rifle:



However you can never be too sure with CH4D.
The Dave of CH4D said his "400 Whelen" set that Rusty ordered was a match for the PTG-Petrov reamer.
Apparently it was not as Rusty has sent them back and is waiting to get the correct shoulder angle on his next set from CH4D.

When Rusty ordered that first set, The Dave at CH4D said BTW, to paraphrase,
"I have some 400 Whelen JGS dies here and they are identical to what you want except 0.010" short in the headspace."



I got those dies.
I set them using the headspace Go Gage and they were far less than .010" off the shellholder in the press.
They worked.
Rusty is using them now while he waits for his CH4D dies to be "fixed."

To explain why in the world all this is the way it is would take some detailed detective work.

I have concluded that one is best just paying his $300 and waiting his 3 to 6 months to get some dies from RCBS. I ordered some.

Or, roll the dice and try CH4D for half the price, but you better call and see if The Dave at CH4D has figured out what he does actually make.

Tell him you want some that match the PTG-Petrov reamer.
That is what Rusty did and you see what that got him and me, so far, still waiting for the final resolution.

Hey Paul
I did go with the Whelen and the deciding factor was the "400Whelen" stamp on the barrel and the ability to match headstamped brass to it. I think the PDK has some definite improvements over the Whelen but after weighing it out I went that way.
By the way Paul how are you healing up these days?
I'll start having some more free time in a couple weeks, let me know when your up to it and I'll connect up with you.

RIP
When I posted this question here I had already e-mailed Dave at CH4D the same question. I sent him the drawing of the Petrov reamer as well. He responded this morning with the same print you showed above number 5156.
Thanks RIP for all your enthusiasm on this topic and thanks Paul for all your help and an alternate look at the .400 equation.
I've been thinking of this project for many years now and I'm finally within weeks of having one up and running.
Thanks to all who have contributed on all the .400 threads over the last few years!

Snellstrom,
Good idea if The Dave at CH4D is now on the same page as JGS reamer print #5156.

Here, again, is the cartridge drawing that did not exist until I simply translated the Petrov-PTG reamer to brass using accepted tolerances.
It is what is posted at www.ammoguide.com with a growing list of loads from "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003" users on this forum:



Now that I know that the "Resize Neck Diameter" for a 40-cal rifle should be .008" smaller than the max brass neck diameter,
I am wondering if the die makers have taper in their neck-sizing area of dies, or do they just make a parallel-sided neck sizer based on neck-2?

Neck-1 = .437" at shoulder-neck juncture
Neck-2 = .433" at case mouth

Resize Neck Diameter ought to be .433" - .008" = .425"
But brass springs back some after resizing.
Is that .002" or .004" spring-back?

So to get a Resize Neck Diameter of .425", does the sizer die need to be .423" or .421"?
How about a nice even 0.422", split the difference?
Size neck down to .422" and it springs back to .425"?

If using thin necks walls like (.008"-.009", average .0085") the loaded brass diameter with .411" bullet will be: .411" + .0085" + .0085" = .428"

Chamber Reamer neck-2 minimum = .437"
Cartridge Brass neck-2 maximum = .433"
Actual Loaded Cartridge neck-2 = .428"

Chamber Reamer neck-2 minimum = .441"
Cartridge Brass neck-1 maximum = .437"

It is possible that you will have an actual loaded cartridge neck-1 diameter of .428" sitting in a chamber with neck-1 diameter of .441".

That seems more than sloppy enough for hunting rifle function, and it throws away a lot of useful shoulder, but it works.

Having brass that is .040" to .060" short of desired adds a lot of wobble in the neck area of the chamber that is about .437" diameter,
for a .411" bullet to wobble through when it is released on firing.

The "400 Whelen Petrov 2003" works,
but it could work better.
That means a new reamer, and new dies from Hornady Custom, if workable full-length brass is ever available.

I actually emailed this reamer drawing and cartridge drawing to Dave Manson about a month ago. No response.
I sent it again 2 weeks ago. No response.
Better try to call him and see if he is swamped, on vacation, or what?





Above "Resize Neck Diameter" was corrected to: 0.425"
There is still lots of slop in the neck diameter to allow use of any brass neck wall thickness from .008 to .011".

I just finished annealing the 280 brass. The reason I did not anneal before fire forming is that the factory anneals the brass after forming. It doesn't show the annealing because it is polished off.

There were no protruding primers. The "secret" is to lube the case before firing. This keeps the case from sticking to the chamber. I took my lube pad with me and lubed every case just before firing, body and neck. The only primer problem I had was when one round repeatedly did not fire. I finally removed it to check any primer strike and found that someone had not seated a primer in that case. No matter how hard I pulled the trigger, it would not go off.

I used the 280 brass because it was longer than 35W brass. With the results of this test, I am going back to 35W brass since the fire forming will produce a case with adequate length for the 400. It will work the brass less, and also give me a .0005-.001 thicker neck(woo-hoo). I was reluctant to use COW because it is against my nature to pull a trigger and not put a hole in something.

Ron, thank you for pointing out my typo. If gone uncorrected it may have caused mass confusion and led to anarchy.

Rusty,
Yep, OK, I will stick with the 35 Whelen RP brass too and just shoot it regular-like in the 400 Whelen Petrov 2003.
When proper brass ever arrives, it will be time for a new rifle chambered for 400 Whelen Berry 2013,
if you and I are both still kickin'.
Live long and prosper.

By "adequate" I meant that the 35W brass is long enough to give a trim length of 2.486. Except for the headstamp, this will be the best version I have seen so far. If QC brass comes back new and improved(doubtful), then it would be the one to use. One can only hope that the Captech brass will be high quality and properly marked.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
By "adequate" I meant that the 35W brass is long enough to give a trim length of 2.486. Except for the headstamp, this will be the best version I have seen so far. If QC brass comes back new and improved(doubtful), then it would be the one to use. One can only hope that the Captech brass will be high quality and properly marked.

Rusty:
What?
35 Whelen R-P brass that trims out at 2.486"?
Is this some from Buffalo Arms that has been expanded and drawn longer by them, then necked down to 400 Whelen?

I can only get about 2.435" trim on the 35 Whelen R-P brass that I fire-form, blow out to .411, and it shortens.
Max SAAMI brass spec on 35 Whelen is 2.484".

Do I need to start getting it from Buffalo Arms?

If you can get it trimmed to 2.486" to start you are there.
Max length in my wildest dreams is only 2.494", trim-to-length is only 2.484", in my wildest dreams.

Captech brass: It will be blank basic cylindrical over 2.5" long and likely of highest quality, 0.0085" at 2.5" length and thicker when necked down.
Blank basic cylindrical siphoned off from what they use to make other 30-06 based stuff.
To get proper headstamp from them (400 Whelen) might cost 5 figures for a special run.
Maybe Peter Cardona who already has the tooling and apparently needs better quality basic to work with will start getting it from them.
Where he gets his basic now is a proprietary secret.

Or maybe I will get my own bunter for 3 figures and a hydraulic jack and start stamping my own,
like Dave Estergaard did with 500 Mbogo in the begining.

When used with COW the 35W brass expands and lengthens.

quote:

35W brass expands and lengthens

The brass to lenghten has to come from somewhere. I found mine coming from just in front of the web.

Rusty:

I fired one of the 35 Whelen R-P cases in my rifle with 15 grains of Universal Clays, your COW recipe.
I started with a new case that was 2.484" long as 35 Whelen.
It ended up beautifully formed and 2.465" long, looking square and only needing a chamfer-debur.

That is a great recipe. Thanks for the tip on lubing the case. Primer is flush and looks like it is sucked into the bottom of the case.
Head spacing on a Ruger extractor.
Sample of one.
But I too am amazed if you are getting 2.486" routinely with the COW method.

2.465" R-P case is the best quality 400 Whelen case so far.
Also cheapest to make with shotgun powder and COW.







I think I am going to make a bunch more of this with UniversalClays/COW.
Zero neck splits or failures of any kind so far here.
The one case was fired into a towel in a garbage can in the garage. Shredded the towel and dented the side of the garbage can.
15 grains of Universal Clays is a 20 guage shotgun charge.
Hope the neighbors didn't notice.
Rainy night here.

Just tell them you are practicing Uncle Joe
Bidens advice------------

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Just tell them you are practicing Uncle Joe
Bidens advice------------

quote:

The brass to lenghten has to come from somewhere. I found mine coming from just in front of the web.

I will check for this. In theory, the lubrication allows the case to set back without stretching. But the best laid mice and men...

Ron, my 2.486 case was a sample of one, like your 2.465 case. We need to test several more to establish an average length. I have already expanded all of my unfired 35 brass. I will try to find some more, but at first glance, it is scarce right now.

Forget that Crazy Uncle Joe kind o' guy.
I am going with Uncle Cream O'Wheat.



Rusty,
Thanks for saving me some more time and money.
I am sure I will get to measure many more of those cases.
A teaspoonful of COW and a pinch of powder is cheaper than a bullet with 4 times as much powder.

Cowboy Cream O'Wheat ordering his next batch of 35 Whelen brass from R-P,
wants to get his 30-06 Winchester 1895 converted to 400 Whelen:

That is the same COW that I have. I thought about the instant COW but decided the extra velocity might damage the cases. You have to give the brass time to move.

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
That is the same COW that I have. I thought about the instant COW but decided the extra velocity might damage the cases. You have to give the brass time to move.

Thats not a COW -- its a horse--

Rusty,
Good thinking on nixing the instant COW.
The regular COW cooks off slower so it builds up enough pressure to do the job.

CrossL,
Right, a horse, ridden by a COWboy.
Definition, COWboy: A wildcatter who uses Cream Of Wheat (COW) to fire-form his brass.