adamhunter,
When they find out you own a 400 Whelen, women will swoon and glow in your company. Men will be envious and sweat until they too possess one.

I would like to let everyone know that my chamber reamer and headspace gauge is still available for loan.

Rules are simple you pay postage, you break it you buy it. It has chambered several rifles and still sharp and in good shape.

mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

Michael Petrov, The Guru himself has spoken, er, uh, written!

This is a generous offer toward balancing the karma of the world.
A 400 Whelen in every riflecrank's hands, and a chicken in every crockpot might do it.

But a single reamer taking two years to return to Mr. Petrov is forseeable, and not good for world karma.

While the Michael Petrov 400 Whelen reamer is circulating, there will be another option:

Rusty McGee, Gunsmith has the same reamer:



Send your barrel and action/donor rifle to Rusty McGee. A Mauser, Ruger, Winchester, etc., anything capable of handling a 30-06 will do,
but there will be feed work necessary with most.

I can say with certainty that a Ruger Hawkeye chambered at the factory for 35 Whelen is already set up to feed the 400 Whelen very well.

Third option: Order your own 400 Whelen reamer from Dave Kiff at PT&G,
specifying that it must be the one with drawing marked "Michael Petrov" from March 2003.

Meanwhile, I had to resort to ordering the .411/300-grain TSX directly from Barnes. On backorder everywhere else.
Sumbuddy has snatched them all up, either for their 405 Winchesters or their 400 Whelens.

Barnes cat# 41130:


Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

quote:

Meanwhile, I had to resort to ordering the .411/300-grain TSX directly from Barnes. On backorder everywhere else.
Sumbuddy has snatched them all up, either for their 405 Winchesters or their 400 Whelens.

Or we ordered some to try in our "Unnecessary" 411 wildcats. Sorry couldn't resist.

Just a heads up as of this morning both Grafs and Midway list the Barnes 300TSX FB as instock.

ramrod340,
Glad to hear that Graf's and Midway have restocked since I looked and found the cupboard bare at both those places.
I always look there first.
I have been very good for Larry Potterfield's business in particular, over the years, and he has been very good to the NRA.

2.65"-long brass in the 400 PDK, eh?

Is this it, just right of the .375 H&H below, and then the 380 PDK and 340 PDK:



86 grains overflow water capacity, for the 400 PDK, eh?

Who made the basic cylindrical 30-06 brass that AHR was supplying, that which you used, I presume?

I figured the Remington 35 Whelen brass would hold 79 grains of H2O if it could be extended to 2.490" max brass length for the 400 Whelen.
At about 2.435" length it holds about 77 grains H2O.

It will be interesting to see what the Quality Cartridge basic cylindrical holds when it is formed and trimmed to max length.
I will try to ask Peter Cardona of Quality Cartridge who makes the basic case he headstamps to 400 Whelen.

The 400 PDK and Ye Olde 400 Whelen Proper can both be loaded as long as the 3.4"-long magazine will permit,
and both will have near identical effective or net case capacities when so loaded,
if chamber throating and bullet ogive relationships allow it.


Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
adamhunter,
When they find out you own a 400 Whelen, women will swoon and glow in your company. Men will be envious and sweat until they too possess one.

So true my friend so true. Those of us who not only own a 400 Whelen but shoot and/or hunt with one are the shooting fraternity's version of the world's most interesting man. We also shoot 16 gauge shotguns, 45 Colt revolvers and 220 Swifts in favor of any other varmint rifle. Women find us more captivating, men want to be us and our bird hunting buddy's dogs hunt better for us than they do for their owners. . It's a mighty responsibility.

Mart

RIP, mart, all 400 Whelen owners and all future owners I want to stress that I think the 400 Whelen is a good cartridge. It is a shame that all the wrong negative crap over the years basically killed it. I think we all owe Michael a great vote of thanks for helping to put much of that garbage to rest.

That said yes my case is 2.65" my shoulder starts at 2.18" and my shoulder dia is .46. Load my case and the 400 Whelen to the same OAL and my case yields a net capacity gain of 7%. If due to bullet shape, the need to use the cannelure or simply for looks then I can add around 19.5%. So my gain is from marginal to significant depending on the circumstances. Depending on bullet, oal etc my case yields a min of 100fps gain. Like RIP said in most cases not a deal breaker.

Yes that is my 400PDK in the above picture next to the 375H&H. The bullets is the 300gr Hornady flat point. Next to it is my 380 & 340PDKs. Since that picture was made the 380 has been altered to use cylinder brass at 2.60". Not really any net gain simply easier to form over the parent 280Rem brass. It also allowed my buddy to simply use 380Howell as parent brass. I have gotten cylinder brass from Z-hat which is R-P 35 Whelen headstamp brass as well as Howell basic Brass from AHR. I don't know who AHR uses to make it for them. We could ask Wayne. The 86grs gross is a full case of the R-P brass.

Prior to Michael doing his Whelen research I had built a 416PDK using 280 rem brass necked up to 416. While we loaded the bullets to 3.34" we had to form a new cannelure because the .28" neck didn't always hold the bullet under recoil. It looked a lot like the center cartridge in this picture. My buddy has used it now for 15+ years but for the most part with 340gr Woodleighs.

In the picture from left to right are my 400PDK with 400gr a case the length of the 400Whelen. Since I have no Whelen dies I could only mark the shoulder on the center case. Right case is my 400 with a 300gr FP. Loose bullets left to right are a 350gr speer resized to 410, 400gr DRX and the 300FP.

As you can see in the case of the 400gr there is no issue of loading to the same OAL except exposed cannelure and appearance. In the case of the 300gr FP load to the same OAL I question if there is enough bullet in the Whelen length case. I don't have a SP or the Barnes onhand to check. At least with the 350gr I again question if you could get by loading to the same OAL.

So can you load both to the same OAL that answer to me is yes and it depends.

The 400 Whelen load short or long will pretty much kill anything you want to shoot. I for one don't like the long bullet exposure. Often that is simply appearance. Even with the normal Whelen case I think it looks better with a longer neck. Is the 400PDK or longer neck Wheln a classic NOPE!!. Just anouther way to skin the cat.

As to the Whelen attracking women since my wife can shoot as well as I can with anything I'll pass.

I want to leave with if you like a 400 Whelen that is fantastic build and shoot one you will love it. I simply built something a little different. Since I designed my first PDK as a 280PDK the neck was .28" but the time I necked that up to 380 or 411 the neck was in my opinion too short. The longer neck gives me more control and in my opinion better lines.

Rip,
On the serious side I really don't understand why you have that problem..that load comes a bit under half way up the neck for me..Mike Brady did some sufisticated testing with his test barre and my loads and his loads and had no trouble..His test barrel got 2500 plus something, very close to mine, he called it a very safe max load and no compaction to worry about..I used that load to test his bullets on buff and sent them all to him to test..I suggest that there are no real specs on the 404 are were not at the time. Maybe the reamer used on my gun was larger. Not that it makes much difference but just curious like I said.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
adamhunter,
When they find out you own a 400 Whelen, women will swoon and glow in your company. Men will be envious and sweat until they too possess one.

So true my friend so true. Those of us who not only own a 400 Whelen but shoot and/or hunt with one are the shooting fraternity's version of the world's most interesting man. We also shoot 16 gauge shotguns, 45 Colt revolvers and 220 Swifts in favor of any other varmint rifle. Women find us more captivating, men want to be us and our bird hunting buddy's dogs hunt better for us than they do for their owners. . It's a mighty responsibility.

Mart

That's great Mart!
I'm gonna use that too!
BTW, I have a well preserved 16 gauge Ted Williams semi-auto shotgun
and an old Winchester single shot in 16 gauge, my Grandpop's favorite for quail, rabbit and squirrel.

Archetypal 400 Whelen shooter:



Notice the scar at the top of his nose: From his youthful infatuation with poorly scoped Weatherby rifles.
Then he found the 400 Whelen. Then he started making beer commercials.

Paul,
Can't diasagree with any of that.
I am hoping the 300-grain Barnes TSX will fit the 400 Whelen throat at max COL, inside my +3.4" Ruger Hawkeye box.
You might make use of a +3.6" box on a Winchester M70 with the 400 PDK, if your throating allowed it.
Thanks for answering all my questions.
One more?
What is your 400 PDK throat, or is the reamer drawing available? A picture is worth a thousand words.

Ray,
I was just yanking your chain. It was Alf that had the problems with your load.
Sure I could use a drop tube and compression,
but in my "loose" McGowen barrel, your IMR 4831 load gave velocities way below 2500 fps with 400-grainer in the 404 Jeffery.
McGowen advertises their groove diameter as 0.425".
Your velocity is from your tighter barrel on the 404 Jeffery.
That might have given you some high pressures, not me.
I found Varget (or RL-15) worked much better with all bullet weights in my 404 Jeffery:
From 400-grainers at +2400 fps to 340-grainers at +2700 fps, and sub-MOA with all for three shots out to 300 Yards.

I used a non-compressed load of H4831 for 2200 fps with 400-grainers to mimic the old classic ballistics of 404 Rimless Nitro Express.
Hey! The 400 Whelen will do that, with a faster powder!

Now back to 400 Whelen, or 400 PDK, which is close enough to be pertinent.

quote:

400 Whelen

A 40-06, is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:

quote:

400 Whelen

A 40-06, is it not?

Nope,
More like a "forty-bore of circa 1922" so that would be a "40-22" if we want to play the "Thirty-Aught-Six Springfield" nomenclature game.

However the .395 Tatanka is closer to a 40-06 in numerology, as it is the "40-07" since it is the "Near-forty-bore of 2007."
But it is the .416 Rigby with shoulder angle changed to 20 degrees and necked down to .395, nothing more.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:

quote:

400 Whelen

A 40-06, is it not?

Perhaps a 40-06 Improved... Biggest problem with the 400 Whelen was yahoos who just necked up the -06 case without blowing out the shoulder diameter; then they'd complain about insufficient shoulder for seating headspacing purposes...

Corrected Thanks RR340

quote:

Biggest problem with the 400 Whelen was yahoos who just necked up the -06 case without blowing out the shoulder diameter; then they'd complain about insufficient shoulder for seating purposes...

(headspacing)

RIP yes you could take it out to 3.6 assuming the bullet is long enough to give you enough in the case. Actions like the 700 or M70 would be easy enough. Per QL says at 3.6 you could be in the 2400fps range with a 400gr. As to reamer drawing I simply use my 280PDK reamer with a neck & throater or neck/throater depending on caliber for everything larger. In the case of the 400 it was a neck/throater I rented from 4D. Dies are on file at Hornady so a throat could be set to anything and still work with the dies.

I show the 300 TSX as 1.27" so you should have no issue with 3.33" and still give you a caliber in the case. I'm sure you could get buy with less.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
adamhunter,
When they find out you own a 400 Whelen, women will swoon and glow in your company. Men will be envious and sweat until they too possess one.

That happened when i built my 404J. Now those are pretty common, so I need some new swoon factor!

As I am a lefty, I would need to start off with a 30-06 action. Do you think there would be any feeding difficulties with that as opposed to the 35 Whelen. Same parent case..sort of.

adamhunter,

I built mine on a left handed model 70. The only bullets I've had any issue with feeding have been the Hornady 300 grain both flat and spire point and the 300 grain Hawk. The 300 grain Barnes, 350 and 400 Hawk, 400 Woodleigh, 350 Speer (416 sized to 411), and 400 grain Hornady (410) have all fed wonderfully. Both the 320 and 400 grain cast bullets I have, feed fine. The Hornady 300 grain bullets shoot extremely well in my gun but then so do the Barnes, Speer and Woodleighs. I need to do more work with the Hornady 400. I have only tried a couple of loads with it but it shows promise. I bought a bunch of them as blems from Midway.

Right now my hunting load uses the 400 Woodleigh at 2150 and so far it has taken one caribou. I'll probably be shooting 400 grainers for a while. If I run out of Woodleighs I've got two boxes of these Hornady 400's. I do plan to spend some time this winter with the Barnes 300 TSX. I haven't had the chance to shoot 200 and 300 yards with it yet and would like to see what it does for bullet drop.

I have truly enjoyed this project. It has been the most fun of any gun build I have done. I have only done a couple of others but they were for standard chamberings. While they were enjoyable and I have some good shooters in them, the 400 Whelen has been truly fun.

Mart

adamhunter,

I have a Winchester M70 that was rebarreled from 270 Winchester to 35 Brown Whelen.
It feeds well, but I was not smart enough back then to pay much attention to what the gunsmith had to do to get it to work: Kevin Jenkins

It is a Classic Stainless Connecticut Winchester.
I will try it with 400 Whelen dummies and report back, see how it behaves in starting to feed from the box.

Same for a Ruger M77 Mark II in 30-06, that is also a prime donor if Shilen will make a stainless No. 4 sporter barrel.
I don't think Krieger will make a stainless 400 Whelen barrel that light.
Krieger says No. 5 CM barrel is as light as they will go, and Krieger does not show a stainless .411/.405 barrel,
but they usually demand to go one or two contours bigger on stainless in same caliber as CM.

I like the Shilen .411/.404 spec better anyway.

This will give me something else to riflecrank about, later ...

Rusty McGee did mention that his rebarreled 30-06 Mark X Mauser needed some feed work in becoming a 400 Whelen.

My Pre-64 M70 Winchester rebarreled from 30-06 to 35 Whelen is a slick feeder, but it is not a 400 Whelen,
though it is going to stay a 35 Whelen.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

Thanks Gents,
My 338/06 is a Ruger M77 Hawkeye that I had rebarreled with a McGowen barrel. It feeds great with no work done, but that is not that big a step up from 30/06. Anyway I would probably look for a used one of those as a donor. Speaking of McGowen, I like their barrels and they make a stainless 405 with a bore/groove of .402/.412. Quite the spread on dimensions between barrel makers for the 405 and Yee Olde 400 Whelen.

adamhunter,
You are right about the variation in barrel specs: McGowen's is the most extreme.
I do love it when McGowen has the specs I like,
I have many excellent McGowen barrels, more than any other maker.
And they are the only barrel maker in the world to supply .395-caliber barrels.



But for 400 Whelen, there is only Shilen, IMHO, same specs as the original: .411/.404

I like this 4 degree shoulder on the 44-40
Also had a .458" shoulder diameter.

boom stick,
That is some interesting trivia.

With your lead to trivia, consider this:
The 10.75x68mm:



Sort of like a 400 PDK on steroids.
Maybe Ray should wildcat that case.

Uh-oh ... 10.75x68mm Mauser necked down to .411-caliber,
with shoulder moved out to give .421" long neck when trimmed down to 2.650" long in the case ...
Or just keep shoulder in same place,
and change shoulder angle to 20 degrees instead of 25 degrees ... And see how long that neck will be when trimmed to 2.650"...
Call it the 400 Whaler ...

Just kidding. No need for that, when the 400 Whelen does the job with less fuss.

I am a riflecrank.

quote:

only barrel maker in the world to supply .395-caliber barrels

Who uses a .395" barrel? .395-06 too?

Y'all boys have a lot of extra time.

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:

quote:

only barrel maker in the world to supply .395-caliber barrels

Who uses a .395" barrel? .395-06 too?

Y'all boys have a lot of extra time.

If you must ask, you don't want to know.
The revival of the long dead .395 caliber is a long and sordid story.
But it lives! Just barely!
5 rifle chamberings certified by R.I.P.:



Left to Right, as pictured above:
400/.395 Nitro Express 3" Aboriginal
.395/.375 H&H aka .395 H&H (easy headstamp conversion)
.395 Ruger Max (easy headstamp)
398 Lapua Magnum (easy headstamp)
.395 Tatanka aka 40-07

Some of us wildcat in the wee hours while the disinterested are sleeping.


Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

I thought the 10.75x68 needed Whelenizing for a while.
Lately I have been thinking that a .400" version of the Whelen would be interesting and the use of 38-40 and 10mm 40 cal bullets. Custom .400" rifle bullets. Maybe just necking up the 9,3x62 brass with its .454" shoulder. Could fit a short action with pistol bullets. Same shoulder as the 10.75x68. 10x62? .400 Whelen? 395x62? .400-308?

Alas, the .395 Ruger max beats any .395/10.75x68mm Mauser.
Recall that .395" = 10.03mm.
.400" is way over 10mm.

Here is a nice format for a 400 Whelen on a Pre-64 Winchester M70, something manly like this could be done to a 30-06,
though this one is actually a .395 H&H:

quote:

this one is actuallay a .395 H&H

That thing is hideous, wanna sell it?

Don't tell anyone but I'm still amazed at all the attention the .400-Whelen is getting.

Honest I was only trying to set the record straight. After my first article I was taken aback at all the mail and phone calls that followed. There were so many questions that I had to build a rifle just to be able to try to give some good information.

Hindsight being what it is there are a few things I wish I had maybe written differently but that's life. Maybe someone will write a article on the .400-Whelen using some of the more modern powders.

Excellent thread Gentleman !! Thank you to all who contributed.
SM

Malloy805,
The fat lady has not sung yet, more to come.

Michael Petrov,
I know what you mean about those IMR-3031 loads of old.
Better powders nowadays.
I have some .411/300-grain Barnes TSX bullets begging for attention with a more efficient powder.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

Seems the 6.5x55 with its .480" case head would be good for a Euro mini Whelen AKA 10.4x55
This would give about 15 more thou to play with.

Looks like the Barnes TSX bullet is going to work.
The 400 Whelen throat handles it, bolt closes on it when the Cartridge Overall Length is 3.315".
When I get full length brass, I will be able to crimp it just where I want to, at similar COL.
Shown with the short brass:
What a nice fit of bullet in case neck and chamber throat, eh?
It might be as accurate as that Rusty McGee load with 300-grain Hornady SP at 2300 fps,
and this tougher bullet will tolerate more speed.

Suppose a .308-400 would work? Guess that would be another .376 Steyr, sorta.

Do you mean like this?

Yup. Is there any body taper left? Maybe a .395" version would be better?

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:
Yup. Is there any body taper left? Maybe a .395" version would be better?

Just did a quick QD look at this one and only thing needed is to expand the neck diameter... Case taper stays the same and more than double the shoulder to headspace against vis-à-vis the 400 Whelen…

All you need to know about a CORRECT 400 Whelen is in the whole chapter by Mike Petrov in this book.



Available from Amazon. That's my R.F. Sedgley 400 Whelen on the left.

It will shoot three new 300 TSX, 400 gr Woodleighs or Swifts as well as my hoard of "old Xs" of 325 & 350 into one inch with only a 2.5X Leupold Alaskan.

It also kills very well even at 250 yards (350 old X)



It's also a ton of fun with cast bullets.

45-70 Shooter,

Thanks for posting that.
I have that book, 2005 First Edition, LR Books.
Great book.
Every wildcatter ought to have it in his library.

The Michael Petrov articles on the 400 Whelen are here also:

http://finegunmaking.com/page33/page51/page51.html

http://www.finegunmaking.com/p...3/page52/page52.html

How about telling us a good load for the .411/300-grain Barnes TSX in the 400 Whelen?

Here are some interesting Michael Petrov loads for the 400 Whelen from Part II artcle:
**********************************************************************

.400 Whelen 24" Barrel
Bullet/Powder/Velocity/Yards/Group


Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2260 100 1.100

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2260 200 1.080"

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2260 100 0.880"

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2260 100 0.855"

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2260 100 0.415"

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 61 2312

Hornady 300 IMR-3031 62 2337

Winchester 300 IMR-3031 61 2260 100 1.650

Hawk 300 IMR-3031 60 2210 100 0.960" 1.700

Barnes "X" 300 IMR-3031 56 2040

North Fork 300 IMR-3031 60 2385 100 0.400" cold & clean barrel

North Fork 300 IMR-3031 60 2385 100 0.482" 22 º F

North Fork 300 IMR-3031 60 2385 100 0.618" 22ºF

North Fork 300 IMR-3031 60 2385 100 0.848" 15ºF


Hornady 300 H-4895 60 2543 100 1.145" 22ºF


Hornady 300 IMR-3031 60 2282 100 0.971" 15ºF

Hornady 300 H-4895 61 50 0.410"

North Fork 300 H-4895 61 50 0.341"

North Fork 300 IMR-3031 60 2362 100 0.325" 50º F Dirty Barrel
***********************************************************************

Hopefully the 300-grain TSX can be made to go as fast as the above highlighted load,
which is probably too fast for close-range use with Hornady 300-grain SP bullets on game.

Now, back to the loading bench ...

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

Yeah too bad Barnes dropped the heavier .411 bullets. I hoarded 325s and 350s and even have 2 boxes of 400s (they are about a foot long and would need a special twist to be as accurate as the lighter ones.) Also bought two boxes (100 in all) 400 gr Swift A Frames from Cabela's back room in Sidney a few years back. Paid $15.00 a box ! They are spitzers and very accurate in the 400 W and 400 H&H. For an all around bullet, hard to beat the 400 Woodleigh (what H&H loads in their 400). It is built like a Barnes original and again, very accurate.
If you want to save money and have some laughs when fireforming 400 Whelen, use 210 gr 41 Magnum revolver bullets seated backwards so they bite the lands as you drop the bolt. Use regular 300 gr loads. You will save money and be amazed how well they will shoot out to 75 yards or so.
What they do to a Woodchuck @50 yards would make a nice PETA poster picture.

45-70 shooter:

Do you have any 300-grain TSX chronographed load data for the 400 Whelen to share?

If you look back on page 3 of this thread, you will see
that I have already used the John Kronfeld recommended method of jambing a backwards Hornady XTP .410/210-grainer into the lands for fire-forming.
Yes it works great.
That was described in his Wolfe Pub. article about the .400 Brown Whelen, a cartridge that is an unnecessary "improvement" of the 400 Whelen.

I could not get to the range yet.
However I have cooked up some QuickLOAD predictions.

First, the issue of old Reloder-10x versus the latest lot of the stuff:

Old Reloder-10x must have been much bulkier and faster than the current RL-10x.
Current RL-10x seems to be much like the old, discontinued RL-12.
Slower and less bulky.

Doc M of MIB in SC ("Terminal Ballistics" and B&M threads) has noted this change in RL-10x lots.

Rusty McGee did too. He started developing loads for the 300-grain Hornady SP with old RL-10x, ran out of it and had to switch to the new RL-10x.
He noted much slower velocities with same charge, and a lot of powder space is left in the case with the new stuff, compared to the old lot, or predictions with QL.

It may just be that more of the new RL-10x is needed to fill the case and get velocities up than was required with the old lot of RL-10x.

Consternation over H4895 loads:
H4895 is not even on the QL radar screen, because it is too bulky and slow to get decent velocities with the light but long 300-grain TSX.

Some actual shooting with latest lots of these powder will be enlightening.

Barnes 300-grain TSX:
************************
Another surprise in QL is Winchester-748 ball powder.
Velocities over 2600 fps with acceptable pressures and mildly compressed loads are predicted by QuickLOAD,
for the .411/300-gr TSX.
H335 ball powder is close behind, with 99% case-filling loads, and that one has been very accurate for me in small bores, even with thrown charges, it meters so well.
H322 Extreme is the top extruded powder in QL, a bit under 2600 fps with 300-grainer, and mildly compressed load.
I like that. It was great in the .500/.338LM aka 12.7x68 aka 49-10.

Woodleigh .411/400-gr:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A full-case load of H322 Extreme or a mildly compressed load of RL-15 gives about 2190 fps.
A 94% fill with H335 ball powder gives about 2200 fps.
A 99% fill with Winchester-748 ball powder gave about 2240 fps with 400-grainer.

All this in a 23.622" barrel.

I'll shoot some and see if this is real or pie in the sky.
Accuracy counts more than velocity.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente