quote:

I've actually had all three of the big Whelens, the 35, 375 and 400. Load development and practice for all three pushes my round count north of 2000, with never a failure to headspace, never a failure to fire

While I happen to use my own PDK case for my 35, 380 and 400s I'm way past 2000 on the 3 and like Mart no issue. Done correct the 400 has as much shoulder as a belt gives you. Can't remember anyone saying the belt doesn't give you enough for head spacing

Does anyone know what became of the original Petrov reamer that Michael was so kind as to loan out -- the one Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool made for him?

Mart ; How do you really feel about it .

Aklester has fresh thoughts, they're just not in strict regard to the 400 Whelen. He offers a different base-case as a solution to the potential problem regarding the minimal shoulder.

And, there is no question that the shoulder is minimal - sufficient, but minimally so. I also think that making the comparison to the area of a belted case is misleading because a belt is backed by much thicker brass than what is up near the mouth of the case. The .400 I had (that is now making tracks in Waterrat's hands) gave me some trouble with misfires due to my own fault. Chamber, brass, and die dimensions were correct, I just oversoftened some cases after expanding them upward and when I slapped them into the chamber, it would occasionally set the shoulder back.

I now know better and the proper solution is to just use the .400 as designed by Whelen (who was no slouch when it comes to considering the whole system) and that includes not only following proper dimensions but using brass in the proper state. If you neck up a smaller caliber case "Stress relieve" the shoulder and neck - don't anneal it!!! And better yet, obtain cylindrical brass and give it the appropriate neck.

I point this out only so that others can avoid my mistake.


FWIW, in my thread regarding CH4D having six sets of 400 Whelen "G&H" die in stock - I would have said they had seven but one set has freshly arrived on my loading bench!

I wonder if McGowan has gotten things figured out with the 400 Whelan ? I like sending an action to them to chamber up a barrel and screw it on. . I bet with a minimum o.d. barrel screwed onto a stainless Ruger action and a LW fibreglass stock. A guy could end up with a 19" barrelled 400 Whelan that didn't weigh over 7 lbs.

I don't know anything about McGowen barrels now. They used to be a solid company but I haven't heard anything about them in years. I used a Shilen barrel for mine and a local gunsmith who has a reamer. He also is using an old lathe of McPherson's and was trained by him.

A few years ago when I put my 400 Whelen together Shilen was the only barrel maker that had the correct twist and bore diameter for my project.
My first choice was Pac Nor, then I contacted McGowen as I said neither had the barrel.
I have recently used McGowen for a 6.5x55 Swede barrel and a 6x45 barrel for an AR15. I am more than happy with both, the Swede barrel is amazingly accurate.
Reasonable price, and on both barrels I ordered they beat their delivery estimate...

McGowan did the barrel on my last 416 Rem. Contoured it as a factory CZ 550 Magnum. With the rear express sight base and under barrel recoil lug and had them chamber it and put their muzzle brake on it. It wasn't bad on the price , the work was done timely. The rifle shot great and killed lots of game. ( wish I still had that rifle) . I am somewhat opposed to dealing with gunsmiths. Just tired of it. Thats the reason I don't already have a 400 Whelan. And the fact that Ruger doesn't make it in a stainless M77.
Not that gunsmiths are bad . I just want to think up the rifle , have it built and pay for it. Every time I look at the barrel on my 458 I get mad at gunsmiths all over again.

My build is officially in the pipeline, in the capable hands of our very own dpcd.

Way to go Bill you will love it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
My build is officially in the pipeline, in the capable hands of our very own dpcd.

Well tell us about the build? You know, all the pertinent stats.......

Dave, it is going to be very basic. I sent Tom a 1903 Springfield Mark 1 barreled action made in February of 1920 that already has a Redfield aperture rear sight fitted. Barrel will be a Douglas .400/.410 1:14, chambered with a reamer to Petrov/G&H specs. Stock will be a simple Boyd's Classic laminate with Decelerator. I put the Boyd's classic on my late father's Springfield and it feels great and fits me well. Add an ivory bead front and she'll be ready for bear, so to speak.

Sounds great Bill
You are going to love it.
H4895, IMR 4895 and TAC powders work real well in mine. Brass from Qualcart or you can neck up 30/06 but they will be slightly short.
I'm shooting .410 diameter Hornadys ( 300 grain with TAC) (400 grain with 4895) and .411 diameter Woodleighs (also 4895).
It doesn't know the difference between the Hornadys and Woodleighs.

I'm doing a 400 Whelen on one of my Satterlee actions right now. Just finished the feeding work today. Interestingly, I was able to borrow Petrovs reamer, gage and dies for the barrel work and production of dummy ammo and also some test fire ammo. Morris Melani of Alaska Arms LLC. did a stunning job of machining an ovate barrel with integral front sight and sling perch, extremely happy with his impeccable work.

Timan; do you have any pics of the barrel work ?

Bill,

Glad to hear you're going forward with the 400. You won't regret it. It's my favorite rifle and would be the last one I'd part with. A .411 400 grain Hawk or Woodleigh will work on anything in North America. The 400 grain Hornady .410 would do the same. And you'll be able to eat the bullet hole.

I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of the rifle and the game you'll take with it.

Mart

Mart, if can tag a moose with it, I will be one happy José. It will likely have to be a B.C. moose, as your Alaska "mooses" are incredibly expensive for a Lower 48 guy like myself.

It'll work equally well on elk, deer and black bear down there in Orygun.

Bill, just finished the chamber yesterday afternoon and I'm headed to the PO to return 4D's reamer as soon as I get off the computer. Should be available for turnaround next week if dcpd is ready.

I left the barrel 27" long and plan on doing a chrono and cut session in the next few days: shoot three rounds and record the speed, hack off an inch and repeat. The plan is to see how short I can go and still maintain 300gr@2400, 350@2300, and 400@2150. I'm hoping that 22" will be plenty of barrel and will post the results.

The LGS didn't have any IMR3031 so Benchmark will be used with the 300s, IMR8208 for the 350s and H4895 with the 400s.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Mart, if can tag a moose with it, I will be one happy José. It will likely have to be a B.C. moose, as your Alaska "mooses" are incredibly expensive for a Lower 48 guy like myself.

Bill; Not that I'm trying to undercut anyone Thats guiding. But, If you can apply some sweat equity . Alaskan moose don't have to be overly spensif .

PWS; very much looking forward to your velocity report. If you still have the 4k ft lb velocity at 22 " , will you go shorter ?



.a.



!!?

quote:

Originally posted by mart:


The fact is the 400 has enough shoulder to headspace upon. Try pushing a .454 diameter brass tube through a .430 hole and let me know how well it works. Without some significant mechanical or hydraulic assistance (more than can be generated by closing a bolt) it ain't gonna happen.

Mart:
Excellent point. Heck, my 6 Hagar AR failed to chamber a round because the shoulder was bulged several thousandths. If I don't squeeze down the bell mouth on .45 ACP, they don't chamber. I know it isn't the same thing, but conceptually it is. Chambers are not sloppy.

I have experimental evidence that the secondary, fire-forming shoulder on the neck of the cartridge above is inadequate for headspacing.
Firing pin just shoves the cartridge deeper into the chamber.
Above neck bulge is only 0.0065" step and 7* 35' 0" per side.
No good headspacer.
That is on the .410/404 Jeffery.
I have to neck the 404 Jeffery up to accept a .458 bullet before necking it down to accept a .410-caliber bullet, to get it to work in fire-forming.
Live and learn.
DO NOT try headspacing on the bullet by seating out to touch the lands.
If you are ever tempted to do that with the 400 Whelen: DO NOT!

You might get by with a couple of shots of nicely formed brass and then the unhappy might happen,
even to brand new, never-before-fired brass:





The 400 Whelen has an abrupt and wide shoulder that headspaces very positively by comparison:



It may be possible to use a flat-based, reversed bullet to head-space on, and I and others have gotten away with that before.
But I am not even going to think about it now.
Still scratching my head over the primer cup turned to tinfoil.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

My first case forming was done by blowing the case out with COW then using a 41 mag die to neck size. That was all prior to having the correct dies. Today I either use Qual Cart brass or Norma cylindrical and set my die to where I create a shoulder that gives just a touch of resistance in chambering. Or I use an expander die with 30-06 brass to go from 30 to 35 caliber then from 35 to 416. Then it's the same again, a pass through the 400 die to create a shoulder with a touch of resistance.

Since I have a few hundred cases made up now I just set the die to barely kiss the shoulder, anneal the necks every couple of firings and my cases last forever. I've yet to loose a case to separation.

The COWboy rides again.



I used 15 grains of Universal Clays (roughone's recipe) in the 400 Whelen.
I'll just scale that up .410/404J case volume.

Another great tip from roughone:
Avoid "Instant COW" the regular, slow-cooking COW produces proper velocity needed for fire-forming.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

Rip.
An excellent point about the head spacing.

For years I had used a bullet to provide head spacing and it worked. UNTIL I tried it on forming my PDK cases. They are like a Gibbs improved and shoulder moved forward. Like your pictures simply using a bullet or in one attempt using COW and just the extractor to hold the case resulted in drastic thinning just in front of the Web. While I didn't have a failure during forming I had several separate on the first firing. Now days I simply form a false shoulder and have no further issues.

Yes, many fresh thoughts on the 400 Whelen.

Had a 98 Mauser custom build done a couple years ago.

Petrov Reamer
23" Krieger barrel
Quality cartridge cylindrical brass
400 gr Woodleigh softs and solids at 2255 fps with CFE-223 powder.

A wonderfully accurate mid-bore rifle you can hunt the world with, along with it's mild recoil, it and the 9.3x62mm will be two rifles I'll hunt with till I'm too old to walk and carry a hunting weapon.

Mine wears a 1.5-5 Leupold in Sunny Hill QD rings.

Jerry, 2255 with the 400 Woodleigh is impressive!

Jerry what is your COAL? That is my velocity from my 400PDK and I have more capacity than the Whelen.

Thanks Bill and Ramrod, it's a fun cartridge to say the least.

I selected CFE-223 for the powder because it's a bit slower burning than the old standard 400 Whelen powder H-4895 and much more compact.

I wanted max velocity and accuracy with lower operating pressures, 68 grains with the 400 soft and 67 grains with the solid puts my rifle to 2255 fps with a c.o.l. of 3.325"

I use a drop tube for uniformity and ease of loading, BTW, the 400 gr solid at 67 grains lands right into the soft point group cluster at 100 yards averaging around 2260 fps.

Jerry, thanks for the load details. Boy I would love to see your loads tested with a strain gauge. Any thoughts as to where your pressures are? You may be the guy who has made CFE-223 the new Whelen "paradigm," so to speak.

LOL Bill, I do know I segregated 5 sticks of brass for load development, primer pockets remain tight after 4 full house firings, so it can't really be that far outta safe spec.

I can do you one better if you wanna google:

South African Kudu hunting 2015

You can see that rifle and load work on a nice 56.5" Kudu bull, the shot was 140 yards.

There's more videos of the 400 Whelen working too, Gemsbok and a 24" Impala ram died hard and fast from the little 400 that could.

The Impala was near 200 yards.

quote:

so it can't really be that far outta safe spec.

Took your solid load and simply reduce the burn rate in QL until I got you velocity pressure would be around 61000. However simply using factory data your load would be right at 70,000 and 2337fps. So your rifle, powder and/or combination are calculating acceptable pressure.

Had a RL22 load that worked like that for me then bought a new lot of powder and went from a load that I got multiple loads to a blown powder. Did drive home the need to work up a load when you switch lots of powder.

Anyway sounds like you have a sweet combination for your rifle.

Jerry,

Under what name are those videos posted? I think I found them but didn't hear any mention of the cartridge.

Mart

Hey Mart,

These videos are under the Biggamehuntingblog on youtube, Mr. McAdams at Big Game Hunting Adventures was my booking agent for this hunt, a fine outfit indeed, all around.

Hit the "read more" button in the lower portion of the video contents section as Mr. McAdams explains a little about the hunt, rifle, and bullet used.

Thanks Jerry. Those were the ones I found. I'll watch them again tonight and look at the read more section. Thanks.

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

so it can't really be that far outta safe spec.

Took your solid load and simply reduce the burn rate in QL until I got you velocity pressure would be around 61000. However simply using factory data your load would be right at 70,000 and 2337fps. So your rifle, powder and/or combination are calculating acceptable pressure.

Had a RL22 load that worked like that for me then bought a new lot of powder and went from a load that I got multiple loads to a blown powder. Did drive home the need to work up a load when you switch lots of powder.

Anyway sounds like you have a sweet combination for your rifle.

Thanks for the lab work Ramrod, that's very good to know, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to load an older Mauser to these levels for decades of repeated firing.

Glad to know my experimentation is in the safe zone.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:
Thanks Jerry. Those were the ones I found. I'll watch them again tonight and look at the read more section. Thanks.

Mart

You're quite welcome Mart, if you enlarge the screen on the Kudu hunt you can actually see that 400 gr Woodleigh smack that bulls shoulder at 26.5 seconds, the little 400 packs a serious wallop for what it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCICwu_q9Rs

Jerry that is a very lovely kudu. Congratulations.

Jerry,

You are right on the wallop. My 400 has two caribou and one cow moose to it's credit so far. One caribou bull with a 400 grain Woodleigh at 250 yards, one cow moose with a Hawk 400 grain at 75 yards and a caribou cow at 200 yards with a Barnes 300 grain TSX. I much prefer the big 400 grain bullets.

Mart

Thanks for the compliment on my Kudu and posting the video Bill, that may give some who may be on the fence about a 400 Whelen build a little something to go on, my PH Kobus proclaimed that 400 Whelen to be the perfect bush veld hunting rifle, I thought mighty high praise for a first timer Africa hunter.