I'm thinking a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps will be quite nice for my use as primarily a non dangerous ruminate rifle.

Glen In real life (non forum) a 400gr bullet will take care of anything on earth (land), sweating and feeling inadequate because you only have a 458 is actually comical in my eyes! Quite a few guides in Alaska carried 30-06 or 338 WM and died of old age, now the norm is a Win Classic in in 375 with a 1 1/2 Leopold full of Federal Premium 300gr SWF. None on my buddies have been eaten lately.

On the A,B,C islands. Not many guides used the 06 after something bigger was available.
Where I'm at now, my medium bores are sufficient.
But life was good when all I had was the Spruce King and a day in the woods would usually produce an up close encounter with a bear.
I was at a class in Anchorage 2 weeks ago. A guy from Gustavus was there . He said he had only been to Hoonah twice, and both times he was charged by Brown bear. He said he won't go back ;-).

Damn RIP, Im just trying to get you to page 37!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Damn RIP, Im just trying to get you to page 37!!

Ray, yours are probably stuck together


And anyway, all the in-the-know cool guides are giving up their big, heavy rifles and packing 10 mm Glocks !

Or 9's

Well if all here were of the same mind and conclusions AR would become the place to waste your time, with dull and boring conversations of agreement...

keep it clean, don't shoot nay sayers, don't mess with Ray, and enjoy questionable conversations, that's as old as mankind with spears across their laps, sitting around camp fires argueing which is best a spear or bow, velocity vs. weight..small fast projectiles vs. massive heavy shards or Flint tied to a stick..

We have progressed at least, or have we? Beware of RIP, he shoots from the hip!
but he is a pretty good shot!!

Beins I'm getting close to 60 and want to go back to rambling around with my 458.
And back when my 458 was the predominate rifle I owned and had with me daily . I would load all kinds of different loads for it. One I enjoyed shooting was the 400 gr Speer flat nose at around 2150 fps. And the 350 gr Hornady rn. At 2200 ish. Just for blastin. They were cheap to shoot. And easier to load than the 300 gr hollow nose Hornady bullets. I shot lots of the Berry''s plated RSFN bullet for blasting too. Nice and inexpensive.
I would hunt with the 350 gr Speer at 2500+ as I found it to be tough enough to do anything I might need it to. And they would like a hole thru a deers ribs without blowing the he'll out of it.
So, I'm thinking a good tough 400 gr bullet at 2150 will kill well and be fun to shoot. Which will lead to more shooting .
I'm beyond to place where I think shooting a couple boxes of 500 gr bullets at 2150 fps is a fun thing to do in an afternoon.

Atkinson,

Thanks for the help with the page turnin'.
I am going to show up at the next Caveman Campfire Discussion with my atlatl,
and a light spear with fletching, like a big arrow.
Best of both worlds of spears and arrows.
That is the caveman's .375 H&H.

Rip ...

Lessee if I can move it on to page 37 with a couple of book reviews of reloading manuals, focusing on the .458 Winchester Magnum excerpts, for book review purposes.

First up, the thrilling WESTERN POWDERS HANDLOADING GUIDE Edition 1, by Rob Behr, 2017, Wolfe Publishing Company.
Good book:

Note the comment:

"Our Accurate 2460 and Accurate 2230 began using an enhanced grain geometry in 2016 that provides broad temperature stabilization. Combined with the .458 Winchester in extreme environments like Africa or Alaska, these two powders offer a new level of performance from this trusted cartridge."

THIS TRUSTED CARTRIDGE!

(Atkinson,
Please ignore the following.)

.458 Win. Mag., 24" barrel, COL 3.305",
500-grain Hornady RN:

Accurate 2230 72.0 grains >>> 2,159 fps <<< 53,808 psi (not a compressed load)

Accurate 2460 74.0 grains >>> 2,192 fps <<< 52,864 psi (mildly compressed load)

I have not tried this yet, but I predict, easy as falling off a log:
Using a drop tube and a wee bit of LongCOL, then even the AA-2460 charge is not compressed,
add a bit more powder,
and well over 2200 fps can be achieved with any 500-grainer,
and a low pressure below 55Kpsi may be obtained.

I also predict that the .458 Win. Mag. LongCOL with standard SAAMI throat can do 2300 fps with any 500-grainer,
at lower pressure than a .458 Lott with SAAMI throat using the same bullet.

Rip ...

So, it seems that Accurate 2230 is the Cat's Meow with 400-grainers in the .458 Win. Mag. LongCOL.
It also seems to be the Cat's Meow with 500-grainers in the standard SAAMI .458 Win. Mag. (ShortCOL).

Accurate 2460, a slightly slower burning powder, requires some mild compression with 500-grainers in the .458 Win. Mag. (ShortCOL).
If you can accept that mild compression, it is even better than Accurate 2230 with 500-grainers.
You get higher velocity and even lower pressures with Accurate 2460.
And both AA-2230 and AA-2460 have good TBI.
TBI does not mean "Traumatic Brain Injury" in this context.
It stands for THERMO-BALLISTIC INDEPENDENCE,
the kind of TBI that prevents the other kind of TBI amongst DG hunters,
by helping prevent them from being tossed or stomped.

Rip ...

The next book review will be just this:
MODERN RELOADING SECOND EDITION by Richard Lee, latest reprint of 2017 has enlarged format and new material added,
though they are still calling it the "Second Edition."
It incorporates the Accurate Powders data above, verbatim, and retains the notations on compression, i.e., a "c" after a powder charge that is compressed.
The notes on compressed/not-compressed are not shown in the 2017 Western Powders Handloading Guide.

The Lee book lists many other powder makes.
It is a good book.

This is the 40th post on this page.
Next reply will start page 37,
thanks to Atkinson.

Rip ...

Thsts encouraging that the new 2230 and 2460 are temp stable. Combined with H4198 for high speed 300 gr loads.

I tried Accurate 2460 in some 458WM testing about 6-7 months ago across my Ohler 35. In my specific rifle it did not meet the published data (velocity) noted in the tables. I thought it might be good load as the data suggested in this thread stated a higher velocity than 2230 with less pressure.
Not sure about the pressure but my noted velocities were closer to 2100 and I did not see the accuracy potential I have history with 2230.
Still sticking with 2230. A few grains less powder as well. No issues meeting advertised velocities and no issues with Texas August heat. Always fun to look at new options but....do you own testing.
My rifle is a Browning Safari grade with a 24" barrel.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Thsts encouraging that the new 2230 and 2460 are temp stable. Combined with H4198 for high speed 300 gr loads.

Yep, good plan.

300-gr Barnes TTSX, in the 24-7/8" CZ barrel of my WinCzechster .458 Win. Mag.:

71.0 grains H4198 >>> MV = 2638 fps, 0.54 MOA (3-shot), ~99% case fill @ 3.390" COL
74.0 grains H4198 >>> MV = 2705 fps, 1.97 MOA (3-shot), ~103% case fill @ 3.390" COL

I am sticking with 71.0 grains of H4198 with 300-grain TTSX. In my rifle, 75.0 grains showed fall-off of velocity increase to only 2712 fps MV.

400-grainers and 500-grainers: Accurate 2230
Hard to improve on perfection.

As for the slower Accurate 2460, eezrider's post

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I tried Accurate 2460 in some 458WM testing about 6-7 months ago across my Ohler 35. In my specific rifle it did not meet the published data (velocity) noted in the tables. I thought it might be good load as the data suggested in this thread stated a higher velocity than 2230 with less pressure.
Not sure about the pressure but my noted velocities were closer to 2100 and I did not see the accuracy potential I have history with 2230.
Still sticking with 2230. A few grains less powder as well. No issues meeting advertised velocities and no issues with Texas August heat. Always fun to look at new options but....do you own testing.
My rifle is a Browning Safari grade with a 24" barrel.

EZ

gives me pause on trying it with 500-grainers,
but it is claimed to be as good in ThermoBallistic Independence as the Accurate 2230.

See TBI testing of Accurate 2230 early on in this thread, by Four-Five-Eight-Bro stradling: Page 8

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
rem 798 458 win mag 26 inch barrel
71.5 gn aa2230 - 500 gn hornady solid
89 f 133 f
cold hot avg
2,175 2,180 5
2,165 2,189 24
2,188 2,193 5
2,170 2,195 25
2,156 2,182 26

2,171 2,188 17

that's the raw data some only 5 fps max 26 average 17 so

no compression

Stradling's data show velocity change for 5 shots at 89*F versus 5 shots at 133*F:

Calculation of ThermoBallistic Independence Index (TBII) for Accurate 2230:

TBII = dv/dt = (2188 - 2171)fps/(133 - 89)*F = (17 fps)/(44 *F) = 0.39 fps/*F

That is simply outstanding.

If you throw out the two pairs of shots that showed only a 5 fps change from warm to HOT:
TBII = 25 fps (ave vel. change for 3 pairs of shots)/44 degrees F (temperature change) = 0.57 fps/*F
Still an Excellent TBII for Accurate 2230,
even if 100 shots at each temperature would be a better test.
What I have seen with H4350 in the .375 Weatherby: TBII was 0.50 fps/*F.
Other TBII's I have observed in the .375 Wby:
RL-15: 1.0 fps/*F
IMR-4350: 2.0 fps/*F

Accurate 2460 might be better with 550-grain Woodleighs and the old 600-grain Barnes Originals.
The latter would be ideal for LongCOL loading just for kicks.

Rip ...

Ya , next time I go to town , I need to bring a bigger wad with me . Sportsman's Warehouse had a couple 8 pounders of 2230. Would have liked to bring at least 1 of them home with me.

quote:

400-grainers and 500-grainers: Accurate 2230
Hard to improve on perfection.

Talk like that almost inspires me to go out and buy a 416 Ruger, Alaskan 20" barrel, with some boxes of GSC 330grainers.
And your powder choices will probably transfer to the 416 Ruger directly. I'm thinking H4895 will be too slow/bulky, so A2230 or maybe H322.

But I won't need a small 416 for several years and we need to take care of grandkids' needs first.

416Tanzan,
Sounds like a worthy trial. I will keep that in mind if I make it to my ninth decade and need a step down from the .458 Win. Mag.

On one burn rate chart ranking 150 powders, from fastest (1.) to slowest (150.):

1. Norma R1
2. VV-N310
3. Accurate Arms Nitro 100
4. Alliant e3
5. Hodgdon TITEWAD
...
31. Alliant Unique
32. Hodgdon Universal
...
51. Alliant Blue Dot
54. Hodgdon LONGSHOT
...
63. Hodgdon LIL'GUN
64. H110
65. W296
66. IMR-4227
67. AA-5744
68. AA-1680
....
71. RL-7
72. IMR-4198
73. H4198
75. H322
79. IMR-3031
81. H-BENCHMARK
82. H335
84. Accurate 2230
85. Accurate 2460s
88. H4895
98. Accurate 2520
99. ReLoder-15
101. H-VARGET
102. IMR-4320
...
114. IMR-4350
115. IMR Co (Enduron) IMR-4451
116. H4350
117. RL-17
118. AA-4350
...
144. Accurate Arms 8700
145. Vihta Vuori 24N41
146. Hodgdon 50BMG
147. Hodgdon US869
148. Viuta Vuori 20N29

That is amazing how close AA-2230 and AA-2460s are on that chart.
And why the "s" on AA-2460s?

There is this published load for the .416 Remington Magnum, by Western Powders:

350-grain "Barnes X-Solid"
AA-2460 79.0 grains (maximum) >>> 2611 fps <<< 60,180 psi

In the .416 Ruger Octagenarian Rifle, I would try:
330-grain GSC HV
AA-2230 start at 73.0 grains and work upwards toward 80.0 grains in 1-grain increments.

Rip ...

I tried 2230 in both the 416 Taylor and 416 Remington.
For some reason it just wasn't satisfactory.
I wish they listed IMR4320 . Be interesting to see where it fit in with these other similar burn rate powders.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I tried 2230 in both the 416 Taylor and 416 Remington.
For some reason it just wasn't satisfactory.
I wish they listed IMR4320 . Be interesting to see where it fit in with these other similar burn rate powders.

Well DRAT! Maybe I won't live long enough to need to try AA-2230 in the .416 Ruger.

CTF,
IMR-4320 was # 103 on my older chart, # 102 on the one below, which only goes from 1-148 instead of 1-150, minor changes, everything is relative.
I'll change my listing above to match the one below.

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...ive-burn-rate-chart/



RL-16 is not on the chart above, but surely it lies somewhere between RL-15 and RL-17.

Rip ...

Great resource. Thanks !
I think much closer to 17. Like sitting on H4350 would be my guess.
I'm surprised 17 is slower than H4350.

Interesting that 4320 is slower than 4064 or Rl 15.
4320 is my go to 416 Taylor powder. If I get another 416 , Rem or Ruger. I'll give it a good tryout.

Yep RL-16 is a tad faster than H4350 it would seem, and RL-17 is a tad slower.
RL-17 may be more energetic, more compact and you can get more of it into a load than with H4350.
RL-17 has the interesting property of easy ignition.
A 209 shotgun primer is sufficient for 200 grains charge of it in a 12 Gauge from Hell shell.
Must be extra nitroglycerin content,
like LIL'GUN.

The RL-16 is supposed to have excellent ThermoBallistic Independence, a low TBII.
Better TBI than H4350 in some applications, like the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I want to try that in the .375 Weatherby where H4350 has been tops for me.
But that too might be a fool's errand, messing with success.

H4350 in the .375 Weatherby Magnum is like AA-2230 in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Rip ...

I worked up a load in my Creed with 130 gr bullets and Rl17. But use H4350 with 140 gr and heavier bullets. H4350 being the gold standard for the 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've been wondering about wether I should worry about load density with the 458/400 gr 2150 fps load I want. Wether having 95+ % load density with a slower powder will help accuracy.

quote:

... I've been wondering about wether I should worry about load density with the 458/400 gr 2150 fps load I want. Wether having 95+ % load density with a slower powder will help accuracy.

Try it. If accuracy at a sub-95% load of AA-2230 is an issue, get some caulk-backer foam rod, 1/2" diameter,
get out your fillet knife and slice off a disk of that rod to fill the case.
Velocity might go up a few fps and uniformity of chronograph readings might improve.

As for me, I am going to break out the .30-06, my first crush, and get some practice loads with 220-grainers at +2400 fps
to almost equal the trajectory of the Four-Five Eight LongClaw with 400-grainer at 2500 fps.
I'll put a Nikon SlugHunter on a .30-06 for lower-cost-ammo paractice on the gongs.

Rip ...

Foam backer rod . Good idea. I was thinking of trying Rl 7 . I have a few pounds of it.

I have been using Dacron Pillow case filler so long that "Pinch, roll, stuff" is second nature but in honor of all of RIP's fine work on the thread, I'm going to get some foam backer rod for the beloved Whitwoth 458, my Kansas Rouge Elephant rifle. I also use it to put deer in the freezer but it's main job is keeping the prairie clear of Rouge Elephants.
The grass is starting to green up so I expect to be afield looking for the migrating herds pretty soon.

Fury01,
There is no snowstorm with the caulk-backer rod foam filler.
I don't use it with cases half-full of AA-5744, get better results without it, using AA-5744, of course.

With any powder of RL-7 or slower burn rate,
and 85% to 95% case fill, the foam wad filler has always been a good thing.
I used to use Dacron filler too.

Rip ...

Just to get Atkinson's goat, this thread may go on forever:



Will try this with a Nikon SlugHunter on a Ruger M77 Mk II.
First on a .30-06 for practice.





Then on a .458 Win. Mag. "Alder Queen."

Since Cold Trigger Finger has had such speedy delivery of bullets from a 19.5" or 20" Shilen,
I'll be needing one of those, left a little longer though.
The #5 LightWeight Varmint/Sporter comes as 28", 0.700" diameter at the 26" length for muzzle.
That would be about 0.710" at the desired 25" length.
3"-long knoxform is 1.220" diameter, and it tapers to 0.910" at the 6" line.
That is the minimum barrel for my Alder Queen,
and that would probably make it weigh less than 8.0 lbs.
I say that because a .416 Taylor with a 26" Shilen #5 weighs 8 lbs 2 oz:





I might decide to go with the Shilen #5-1/2 Mediumweight Varmint, to keep it over 8 lbs.

Rip ...

A 3.4"-long box full of 500-grainers at +2150 fps and a single-loaded 400-grainer at 2500 fps ...
Not bad.
Velocities might be even higher with one of those speedy Shilen barrels 25" long.
I might have to reduce my loads,
to keep it down to 2500 fps with those 400-grainers.

I need to get a rear extension ring. I'm thinking I will put a PST2 1-6×24 ON the Spruce King. The eye piece is a bit longer than I like . the extension ring would help me to keep a shortish lop.
I've always wanted a 16.5" barreled 458. Rob a rail off a GunSight Scout Rifle and put a scout scope on it ;-)

But I won't chop the SK . It being my gold standard.

And a Ruger M77 Mk II can be opened up to .375 H&H length. To the rear, I hope, and only if you want to.
If so, it would be more rugged and versatile than an M70 Winchester, because of the integral scope bases.
For all else there would be no functional difference between them:
CRF plus PF by Big Beautiful Claw Extractor Face Reshaping (a positive over non-PF Mauser--does not significantly weaken extraction)
Uncontrolled Round Extraction (a negative in lacking Mauser extractor tongue bevel--not a fatal flaw)
Controlled Round Ejection by Massive Fixed Ejector

The equivocal plus and the equivocal minus add up to an equal for the M70 and M77 versus the M98, IMHO.
There are no absolutes, everything is relative in horse shoes and rifles.

So, relatively speaking, the M77 beats them all by virtue of excellent integral scope bases and OEM rings.
Also available as stainless and wrong handed versions in the latest M77 Hawkeye.

Rip ...

http://www.safariammo.net/inde...-components.html?p=2

Norma 458 Win brass 25 pc $16.50 (69% off!!!)

boom stick,
I have converted to all new Hornady brass,
still have about a hundred new cases to go before I have to start on second firings.

Thank you for the contribution to The Mission
which must now set its sights on the "Terminal Ballistics" thread, for total page count.
Only 265.5 pages to go at 40 replies per page,
just over 10,620 replies needed to surpass it.
Thanks for the reply, boom stick.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boom stick,
I have converted to all new Hornady brass,
still have about a hundred new cases to go before I have to start on second firings.

Thank you for the contribution to The Mission
which must now set its sights on the "Terminal Ballistics" thread, for total page count.
Only 265.5 pages to go at 40 replies per page,
just over 10,620 replies needed to surpass it.
Thanks for the reply, boom stick.

Rip ...

You’re aiming higher inorder to not shoot low.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
You’re aiming higher inorder to not shoot low.

jwp475,

Right. Maybe. Thanks for the reply.

Rip ...

While awaiting the Ruger extension ring from Midway USA, I have rigged up another set of training wheels for the "Alder Queen" Ruger .458 Win.Mag.:

A 40-year-old rifle, my first-ever bolt action, acquired upon graduation from the Marlin 30-30: