AA-1680 with 300-grain TTSX at 3.395" COL: Not so good.
Three-shot averages, 81*F, 25" barrel, F-215, Hornady brass:
76.0 grains >>> 2811 fps, erratic
77.0 grains >>> 2868 fps, erratic

50-yard, 3-shot "patterns" for those two loads:
2 to 3 inches on centers.
I would feel silly using a filler in the .458 WIN with AA-1680 and 300-grainers.
Will consider, if I get bored, big bored.

BTW, the illuminated reticle of the 1-4x24mm Nikon is still working, have not busted it yet.

A .458 WIN with 3.6" Mag Box makes the .458 Lott pretty useless.
Any M70 Classic/FN-SC .458 WIN just needs its box lengthened.
Next experiment will be 544-grain FNGC and 500-grain Hornady DGX and DGS, all at 3.475" COL and 72.0 grains AA-2460,
across the Oehler 35P,
for THE MISSION.

“Cast your cares away” sir. You have won the 458 cast load battle. Slow or fast, the 458 is matchless here too. To all the folks looking for an inexpensive bullet solution that still actually works on game; here it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
“Cast your cares away” sir. You have won the 458 cast load battle. Slow or fast, the 458 is matchless here too. To all the folks looking for an inexpensive bullet solution that still actually works on game; here it is.

Buy a donkey, buy a buy a donkey, Sir!

Yes, from a Selous .461 Gibbs to a Capstick giggle, 1400 fps to 2200 fps, works great with this bullet.
Probably any other cast bullet too, if you can double-powder-coat paint it and size it to .461" for about any smokeless powder load.

Shoot all day, little fouling.
The hard polymer/plastic lube of Harbor Freight Red sure is tidy!

A plain-base with a double-coat of powder-coat "lube" needs no gas check,
might be even more accurate?

We shall see with Buffalo Arms Co.'s 545-gr .461 Gibbs "Money" bullet.
Could be a long range wonder!
Let the gongs ring!

Then those blasted modern, monometal copper 300-grainers approaching 3000 fps!!!
AA-1680 and a filler?
I'll start over with a foam wad filler that vanishes on firing,
and a Barnes, not a Sierra 300-grainer!
Just for kicks,
and THE MISSION.

Rip ...

4sixteen,
That is some great photography.
I like that "Nikon Spot On" stuff!
Have run it for the BDC's on the 1-4x24mm and the 3-9x40mm by Nikon.
Mighty cool.

Rip ...

4sixteen's mildot pics have inspired me to try to break this scope, again.
It is low and well forward on the rifle, thanks to the custom, Double-Seyfried-Schtick mounts.
The poor eye relief turns it into a tunnel-peep sight of sorts. Might help reduce parallax:



Bobbarrella is still doing shopmule work, and loving it.
That Nikon Prostaff P3 Shotgun 3-9x40 BDC 200 (4-circle) scope is my favorite, no doubt.
Best bang for the buck out there.
We'll get back to it, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
4sixteen's mildot pics have inspired me to try to break this scope, again.
It is low and well forward on the rifle, thanks to the custom, Double-Seyfried-Schtick mounts.
The poor eye relief turns it into a tunnel-peep sight of sorts. Might help reduce parallax:



Bobbarrella is still doing shopmule work, and loving it.
That Nikon Prostaff P3 Shotgun 3-9x40 BDC 200 (4-circle) scope is my favorite, no doubt.
Best bang for the buck out there.
We'll get back to it, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Forgive me if you've explained it before, RIP, but are the 'Seyfried-Schtick mount' bases mounted as one first and then cut up to save weight and give more thumb room when loading?

Are the extra crennelations inside left in case the user goes mad and decides two inches between mounts is better than four?

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Spot On app works. Results at 300 and 626 yards with my .338 WM / 4-16x42mm Mildot.

That is some very good shooting 4sixteen ! Nice rifle.
I have wondered how the 265 ABLR would work in the 338 Win. Looks like it works Great !
What powder are you using ?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:


Q: Forgive me if you've explained it before, RIP, but are the 'Seyfried-Schtick mount' bases mounted as one first and then cut up to save weight and give more thumb room when loading?

A: No problem mate ("mate" is pronounced like Americans say "might" when I use my Crocodile Dundee Australian accent).
Others just now dropping in here might want to know that too, as well as why it is called a Seyfried-Double-Schtick 2-Piece Picatinny: SDS-2PP.
Ross Seyfried's "Professional's Rifle" was a Remington M700 .416 Remington with Talley bases.
He mounted a Leupold 1.5-5x20mm scope on it, well forward, by having a custom Talley base made to stick out, forward, over the rear of the ejection port.
Since Ross was formerly working an anti-.458 WIN schtick, and I am now working a pro-.458 WIN schtick,
the Seyfried Schtick is a natural term for a scope base that sticks out over the ejection port.
I have doubled his schtick on the scope bases, front and rear.
The example seen above was originally done as a one-piece Picatinny by a real gunsmith, same one who made the 8x40 holes in the tops of the square bridges.
He shaped the recoil stops on the bottom of it for the front portion and then machined the rest of the rail flat and thin, all the way back.
I decided I wanted a two piece instead, with just a 1-5/16-inches "thumb cut" between the two bases, to aid in thumbing cartridges into the magazine.
So, I cut off the front of the one-piece, preserving the recoil stops, it is 2-7/16-inches long. Hacksaw.
Next I took a piece of virgin, stainless, Picatinny rail and cut it to exactly 2-1/2-inches long for the rear base. Hacksaw.
Then I attacked it with my eyeballs and a drill press, files, stones and a Dremel Tool.
File and measure, file and measure ...
I made that rear base myself.
Then I used J-B Weld to attach it, fill any gaps. It is screwed and glued solid, zero tolerances.
It is the most rugged scope mounting system possible, a prototype for Bubba Gunwerkes, patent pending.

Q: Are the extra crennelations inside left in case the user goes mad and decides two inches between mounts is better than four?

A: Very funny!
Of course a ring spacing of 2 inches is not recommended.
If you hang your rear ring way out over the ejection port like Ross Seyfried did ... RIFLE 185 Sep-Oct 1999 ...




... you can still get the front ring well forward too.
If it is a really short scope and the ocular bell is short too, you are able to mount it rearward enough for desired eye relief,
and still keep the front ring off of the objective lens housing inside the tube.
The extra cross-slots will also allow use of more than two scope rings for heavy kickers sometimes.
Three or four rings, instead of just two, can be used in special situations.

Bubba Gunwerkes is working on SDS-2PP scope bases for Mauser 98 and Winchester M70 rifles: SDS-2PP-M98 and SDS-2PP-WM70
The prototype Double-Square-Bridge model used on the CZ is also getting refined for use on the Magnum Mauser 98 ala Prechtl: SDS-2PP-MM98
Sponsorship by J-B Weld might get them into mass production, for the masses.

Rip ...

Ross's PH rifle used in 1983: A .416 Taylor Blaser!
And a SAAMI .458 WIN cartridge used as a prop, standing next to a .416 Taylor LongCOL,
which we know was actually the .416 Watts,
or the .416/.458 Watts Short:



Note the double-front ring of sorts used as an extension ring, single front, base attachment to rifle with double ring tops.

Ross's "Ugly Rifle" came along after the .416 Remington of 1988-1989.
He wrote about that ugly .416 Rem.Mag rifle in G&A Dec. 1990.
Must have been inspired by Phil Shoemaker's .458 WIN OL'UGLY of circa 1985.

But Ross Seyfried might have started the competition in ugly, with that .416 Taylor Blaser circa 1983.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ross's PH rifle used in 1983: A .416 Taylor Blaser!
And a SAAMI .458 WIN cartridge used as a prop, standing next to a .416 Taylor LongCOL,
which we know was actually the .416 Watts,
or the .416/.458 Watts Short:



Note the double-front ring of sorts used as an extension ring, single front, base attachment to rifle with double ring tops.

Ross's "Ugly Rifle" came along after the .416 Remington of 1988-1989.
He wrote about that ugly .416 Rem.Mag rifle in G&A Dec. 1990.
Must have been inspired by Phil Shoemaker's .458 WIN OL'UGLY of circa 1985.

But Ross Seyfried might have started the competition in ugly, with that .416 Taylor Blaser circa 1983.

Rip ...

I think Ross's UGLY rifle was incorrectly named. The photo above proves the Blaser is the true UGLY rifle. Always has been ... Always will be!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I think Ross's UGLY rifle was incorrectly named. The photo above proves the Blaser is the true UGLY rifle. Always has been ... Always will be!

No truer words have ever been typed into a 'puter than Todd's above.

That last picture of the Blaser came from HANDLOADER 204 Apr-May 2000, "Reloading the .416, Getting the best from the heavy hitters!" pp.38-45.
On page 42 Ross Seyfried wrote:
"... Thus with the help of Chet Brown, my Blaser Ultimate became a .416 Taylor ... Making cartridges was as simple as necking down the essentially useless .458 Winchester brass ..."
FIGHTING WORDS!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:


Q: Forgive me if you've explained it before, RIP, but are the 'Seyfried-Schtick mount' bases mounted as one first and then cut up to save weight and give more thumb room when loading?

A: No problem mate ("mate" is pronounced like Americans say "might" when I use my Crocodile Dundee Australian accent).
Others just now dropping in here might want to know that too, as well as why it is called a Seyfried-Double-Schtick 2-Piece Picatinny: SDS-2PP.
Ross Seyfried's "Professional's Rifle" was a Remington M700 .416 Remington with Talley bases.
He mounted a Leupold 1.5-5x20mm scope on it, well forward, by having a custom Talley base made to stick out, forward, over the rear of the ejection port.
Since Ross was formerly working an anti-.458 WIN schtick, and I am now working a pro-.458 WIN schtick,
the Seyfried Schtick is a natural term for a scope base that sticks out over the ejection port.
I have doubled his schtick on the scope bases, front and rear.
The example seen above was originally done as a one-piece Picatinny by a real gunsmith, same one who made the 8x40 holes in the tops of the square bridges.
He shaped the recoil stops on the bottom of it for the front portion and then machined the rest of the rail flat and thin, all the way back.
I decided I wanted a two piece instead, with just a 1-5/16-inches "thumb cut" between the two bases, to aid in thumbing cartridges into the magazine.
So, I cut off the front of the one-piece, preserving the recoil stops, it is 2-7/16-inches long. Hacksaw.
Next I took a piece of virgin, stainless, Picatinny rail and cut it to exactly 2-1/2-inches long for the rear base. Hacksaw.
Then I attacked it with my eyeballs and a drill press, files, stones and a Dremel Tool.
File and measure, file and measure ...
I made that rear base myself.
Then I used J-B Weld to attach it, fill any gaps. It is screwed and glued solid, zero tolerances.
It is the most rugged scope mounting system possible, a prototype for Bubba Gunwerkes, patent pending.

Q: Are the extra crennelations inside left in case the user goes mad and decides two inches between mounts is better than four?

A: Very funny!
Of course a ring spacing of 2 inches is not recommended.
If you hang your rear ring way out over the ejection port like Ross Seyfried did ... RIFLE 185 Sep-Oct 1999 ...




... you can still get the front ring well forward too.
If it is a really short scope and the ocular bell is short too, you are able to mount it rearward enough for desired eye relief,
and still keep the front ring off of the objective lens housing inside the tube.
The extra cross-slots will also allow use of more than two scope rings for heavy kickers sometimes.
Three or four rings, instead of just two, can be used in special situations.

Bubba Gunwerkes is working on SDS-2PP scope bases for Mauser 98 and Winchester M70 rifles: SDS-2PP-M98 and SDS-2PP-WM70
The prototype Double-Square-Bridge model used on the CZ is also getting refined for use on the Magnum Mauser 98 ala Prechtl: SDS-2PP-MM98
Sponsorship by J-B Weld might get them into mass production, for the masses.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, I can see Seyfied's angle on the matter, though a slim bridge to the front ring might have made it stronger while still giving some thumb room.

The third ring on the Blaser is still not obvious to me, though. Is it meant as some kind of recoil lug, to stop the scope moving 'forward'?

4sixteen shoots well, and proves the Nikon Spot On external ballistics work well for many applications.

I first discovered that program in 2017 and applied it to the .458 WIN with 300-grain TTSX at 2638 fps MV from a 24-7/8" barrel of 1:14" twist.
That is an accurate load, and a moderate load,
only 3.390" long in COL, it will work through the magazine box of most factory .458 WIN rifles of standard length.
My specifics:
WW-Super brass
F-215 primer
COL 3.390"
H4198 propellant 71.0 grains
5-yard velocity 2619 fps
If G1 BC is 0.236, add 19 fps for MV = 2638 fps
3-shot group 0.54 MOA

A handy range card that is printed from the online Nikon Spot On site, to about 2.5" X 4.25" size and laminated, two sides,
Side A:



Side B:



That is a fun load to ring the gongs with: Highlighted ranges correspond to the hundreds of yards where gongs live: 200, 300 ... 600.
On game it is a .375 H&H equivalent or better,
depending on the application.
Certainly light in recoil.

But the heavier, non-plastic-tipped, Barnes 350-grain TSX has a higher BC and can be driven faster with H4198 than the 300-grainer.
The 350-grain TSX delivers the mail mo'better.
You might be able to tell that I am still not settled on an AA-1680 with a 300-grainer, using a filler foam wad in the CAVERNOUS .458 WIN cartridge case!
Working on it.

Rip ...

Paul,

What do you make of that Zeiss scope that Seyfried mounted like that?
Is that a Zeiss variable, circa 1983?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP, I can see Seyfied's angle on the matter, though a slim bridge to the front ring might have made it stronger while still giving some thumb room.

My thinking on the "slim bridge to the front ring":
All it offers is obstruction to a thumb grip in the middle, the loading, unloading, and ejection.
Cut it down in anyway to decrease obstruction and it would become flexible and offer negligible stiffening,
and perform no strengthening of the scope attachment to the rings,
as long as the front and rear rings remain rigidly attached to the front and rear attachment points,
and the rings remain firmly gripping the scope tube.
Adhesive inside of the rings is not absolutely necessary, but never a problem.

The third ring on the Blaser is still not obvious to me, though. Is it meant as some kind of recoil lug, to stop the scope moving 'forward'?

Is that a custom 3-ring circus or the usual Blaser "extension rings?"
I would think that those two front rings are either welded or screwed together with a bolt running through their lower halves, parallel to the bore.
If not, that ring which is not attached to the rifle should certainly be glued to the scope tube,
if it is a recoil stop!
Seyfried was a big advocate of using 3M brand Liquid Electrician's Tape inside the rings to seal the scope to the rings.
Secures against penetration by lubricants, moisture, and recoil loosening.
I use silicone adhesive.
He probably had his third ring both screwed and glued, if that is not some Blaser factory concoction.
He said that his .416 Taylor Blaser "Ultimate" rifle, with Brown Precision stock, weighed only 7.75 pounds, assumed to be scoped and loaded with 3 rounds.
He said it kicked, but never noticed when hunting.

Rip ...

RIP;

My next move is to return to H4198 for the 300gr TSX. I still have some doubts and questions over the use of 1680. I'm not giving up on it, and will give it another try at 83 - 84 grains, but meanwhile the 300 TSX will be given a max load of H4198 (about 82 grains slightly compressed when seated to the bottom cannelure and crimped); MV should be 2800 + fps. Hoping for decent accuracy. Recoil will be less than the same load behind the 350 TSX at 2760 by about 41 ft-lbs vs. 48 ft-lbs; or the 300gr at around 2835 fps will only be 85% of the recoil generated by the 350gr load. Those numbers factor in the Mag-na-porting, which seems to actually work as promoted.

If the above scenario is in any way close to reality, I'll likely go with the 300 TSX for a bear hunt this fall if "all else" goes well, including accuracy. The 350 TSX is very accurate when seated "long".

You've done a masterful job using those red "painted" cast bullets! I still have a "truck load" of 465s and 470s with GCs that were very accurate in my 1895 Marlin and NEF 45-70. They didn't work as well in my CZ but I think that was due to seating them too long exposing the lube and pushing them too fast at about 2200 fps. At 1900 fps they were superbly accurate from both the Marlin and NEF single-shot. As published, I killed a very nice bear with one shot, frontally into the chest from 70 yards. The bear didn't even know it was dead when it hit the ground. It didn't have time to think about it.

Also, my intentions are to give the heavyweights more exposure at modest speeds; 1650 to around 1850 fps. That proved to be very accurate from my former Ruger 45-70 LT.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
As to the cast part of your Comments, I don't think seating them out and exposing the lube would have hurt your performance. However, in cast all things are a variable so maybe. I fill the case with Dacron on top of my powder so that adds a variable. Without Dacron groups opened. I run these bullets as long as the magazine will allow in my Whitworth and still feed. I have a lot of Lube exposed. That and I add Alox Lee Liquid type over the normal groove lube. If lube is a http://forums.accuratereloadin...es/blank.gifsealant, and it is, then I wanted all the sealant I could get. Not very scientific but it works both in the .458WM and my 35 Whelen.
For loads in the 458WM I use 51 grains of AA 2015 with either the 433 grain or the 485 grain, both with Gas Checks. Never shot them over the old, sometimes works Chrony, but should be around 1750-1800. I also use IMR 4759 from 39 to 42 grains, same speed say the databases I used.
No doubt the double Powder coat and sized at .461 is the Kitty's Meow though. If I could talk Rip into sending me 500 of those; I'd be on easy street waitin' for the elephant Migration to come by.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Paul,

What do you make of that Zeiss scope that Seyfried mounted like that?
Is that a Zeiss variable, circa 1983?

I don't know, RIP, but it looks like a Zeiss Diavari C 1.5-45x, which probably did sell in the early '80s. The C probably refers to the reticle being constantly centred and it has a fat rubber eyepiece, so it does not appeal to me. I guess Seyfried knew what he was doing but I would have been more worried about what was going on inside the scope than on how many mounts I put on the outside.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP, I can see Seyfied's angle on the matter, though a slim bridge to the front ring might have made it stronger while still giving some thumb room.

My thinking on the "slim bridge to the front ring":
All it offers is obstruction to a thumb grip in the middle, the loading, unloading, and ejection.
Cut it down in anyway to decrease obstruction and it would become flexible and offer negligible stiffening,
and perform no strengthening of the scope attachment to the rings,
as long as the front and rear rings remain rigidly attached to the front and rear attachment points,
and the rings remain firmly gripping the scope tube.
Adhesive inside of the rings is not absolutely necessary, but never a problem.

The third ring on the Blaser is still not obvious to me, though. Is it meant as some kind of recoil lug, to stop the scope moving 'forward'?

Is that a custom 3-ring circus or the usual Blaser "extension rings?"
I would think that those two front rings are either welded or screwed together with a bolt running through their lower halves, parallel to the bore.
If not, that ring which is not attached to the rifle should certainly be glued to the scope tube,
if it is a recoil stop!
Seyfried was a big advocate of using 3M brand Liquid Electrician's Tape inside the rings to seal the scope to the rings.
Secures against penetration by lubricants, moisture, and recoil loosening.
I use silicone adhesive.
He probably had his third ring both screwed and glued, if that is not some Blaser factory concoction.
He said that his .416 Taylor Blaser "Ultimate" rifle, with Brown Precision stock, weighed only 7.75 pounds, assumed to be scoped and loaded with 3 rounds.
He said it kicked, but never noticed when hunting.

Rip ...

Thanks for that. An interesting outlook. Do you think Seyfried may have had some unaccountable movement in zero and jumped to the conclusion the mounts must have been to blame?

Bob,
Thanks for the update.
So far with AA-1680 (69 to 77 grains) and 300-grain bullets, the only semblance of uniformity and a complete burn that I have had is with 73.0 grains.
3 shots had a st.dev. of 6 fps and an MV of 2756 fps.
That was with no filler and about 88% fill of powder with the Sierra vaporizing bullet.

I am wanting to try the same powder charge with a foam wad filler, using the 300-grain Nosler Partition and Ballistic Tip,
as well as the Sierra, just to compare how much faster and more uniform, hopefully, with the filler.
I will not use the muzzle brake for such a light-recoiling load.
Those Sierra bullets might vaporize if the filler makes them go faster.

Harbor Freight Red powder coat by the shake & bake method: My favorite kind of home cooking.
Thanks to Les Staley for suggesting it to me on page 12 of this thread.
Les has gone missing in action. Hope he is well.

Your hard-cast 465-470-gr bullets at 1650-1850 fps MV:
Some folks hunt cape buffalo with less.
Expect broadside pass-throughs on bear of any size.

Rip ...

Fury01,

Yes, lipstick on a pig, or the kitty's purr, that is Harbor Freight Red on lead.

LUBE: Powder-coat is the only one for me unless I am waxing nostalgic with an antique smokepole or replica of one, and want to grease the grooves for authenticity.
Ditto paper patch and BP.

Teach a man to powder coat and he will never be without bullets.
Thus spoke Les Staley, and I listened and learned.

The latest AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, August 2019, page 34, by John Haviland, "Cast Bullet Fit In Revolvers"
is about getting the right-sized bullet for the cylinder/chamber throat and barrel.

If the chamber throat is undersize at cylinder face (narrower than groove-to-groove diameter of barrel), the remedy is to ream throat to match the barrel's groove diameter.
Bullets swaged down by the chamber throat allow gas blow-by and leading of the barrel.
If you get that fixed, use a cast lead alloy or swaged lead bullet of 0.001" greater diameter than the usual jacketed bullet of groove diameter.

Gas cutting and leading may also occur due to chamber throat being "excessively larger than bullet diameter."
The remedy for that is to use larger diameter bullets to match the cylinder's chamber throat diameter.

Aspects of that are applicable to what is going on in the .458 WIN rifle.

Bigger diameter can be obtained by casting your own bullets in harder alloy, or simply by powder-coating.
Haviland says powder-coating adds 0.002" to bullet diameter.
I agree that a double-paint with the Harbor Freght Red does just about that.

Haviland also says:

"Even hard-cast bullets are elastic, and bullets a few thousands (sic) of an inch over bore (sic) diameter do not raise pressures."
(He meant "a few thousandths of an inch" and "groove diameter".)
"The only limit is these larger bullets must seat in cases without bulging them.
These bullets require a larger expander plug than normal in a case-sizing die,
otherwise the bullets will be sized down when they are seated."
BINGO!

When I got started with the paper-patch stuff and .45-100 Sharps-WT, I ordered an expander plug for 0.461" diameter bullets.
I use a .460" Lee sizer die on the powder-coated bullets that are greater in diameter than 0.461"
and they come out measuring 0.461" diameter, smooth and shiny on the bearing surfaces/bands.
Some spring back may occur in either the powder-coat paint lube or in the hard lead alloy.
I do not need any grease in my grooves!
A powder-coat-painted plain base that is 0.002" bigger than the .459" groove diameter of most .458 WIN rifles
has got to be a bit of a gas check too.
Sure cuts down on leading.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... it looks like a Zeiss Diavari C 1.5-45x, which probably did sell in the early '80s. The C probably refers to the reticle being constantly centred and it has a fat rubber eyepiece, so it does not appeal to me. I guess Seyfried knew what he was doing but I would have been more worried about what was going on inside the scope than on how many mounts I put on the outside.
Rip says "thanks" for that bit on the scope. And for the bit on Seyfried's scope mounts on the Blaser:
... Do you think Seyfried may have had some unaccountable movement in zero and jumped to the conclusion the mounts must have been to blame?

I have no idea, but hey, It was done to a Blaser, so I guess anything goes, impossible to make it worse.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
... If lube is a http://forums.accuratereloadin...es/blank.gifsealant,

Oops, forgot to ask what that vanished-image link was about?

As Archimedes once said:
"Give me some powder-coat paint and a .461" neck expander plug, and I can make any cast bullet work in a .458 WIN."

Rip ...

Another excuse for the .458 Ruger aka the .458 PRC,
straight neck-up of the 300 PRC, uses same headspace gauge:



And of course this one can be wildcatted too, by LongCOL loading in a CZ 550 Magnum, etc.
It has a throat like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... it looks like a Zeiss Diavari C 1.5-45x, which probably did sell in the early '80s. The C probably refers to the reticle being constantly centred and it has a fat rubber eyepiece, so it does not appeal to me. I guess Seyfried knew what he was doing but I would have been more worried about what was going on inside the scope than on how many mounts I put on the outside.
Rip says "thanks" for that bit on the scope. And for the bit on Seyfried's scope mounts on the Blaser:
... Do you think Seyfried may have had some unaccountable movement in zero and jumped to the conclusion the mounts must have been to blame?

I have no idea, but hey, It was done to a Blaser, so I guess anything goes, impossible to make it worse.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, I can't argue with that.

Getting back to the 458 WM long-COL (being too lazy to pore back over the story but remembering the Mission doesn't care), a friend has an old Brno 602 he has used for ever for hunting sambar.

He says the magic velocity for elephants etc is 2150 fps (probably with the old Brit 480-grain bullet), not a higher one available from the Lott or 460 Weatherby.

Am I wrong in thinking the 458WM long-COL can reach this 'no worries' and, with the extra powder space available, should not be much hotter than a tropical load?

Rip
That link is an internet/computer mystery link. I had shifted out of typing and did a search on “lube sealant” and the computer did the rest.
Maybe my computer was contributing for the mission as well?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Getting back to the 458 WM long-COL (being too lazy to pore back over the story but remembering the Mission doesn't care ... True. ...), a friend has an old Brno 602 he has used for ever for hunting sambar.

He says the magic velocity for elephants etc is 2150 fps (probably with the old Brit 480-grain bullet), not a higher one available from the Lott or 460 Weatherby.

Am I wrong in thinking the 458WM long-COL can reach this 'no worries' and, with the extra powder space available, should not be much hotter than a tropical load?

Paul,

The SAAMI/shortCOL .458 WIN can do 2192 fps with a 500-grain Hornady RN bullet in a 24" barrel at 52,864 PSI
with a non-compressed load of 74.0 grains of AA-2460, 3.305" COL, WW-Super brass, F-215 primer,
if the WESTERN POWDERS HANDLOADING GUIDE can be believed.
I think it can be trusted.

That is a tropical load in itself, without resorting to LongCOL wildcatting, or the red-faced .458 Lott.

I am on the lookout for more AA-2460 powder.
It makes my 545-grain cast bullets go 2200 fps accurately from a 25" barrel, and only 3.475" COL.
The nose of that bullet, at that COL might fit into the short-throated .458 Lott chamber,
and that .458 WIN LongCOL load would certainly give a higher pressure in the .458 Lott.

The concept of "Tropical Loading" of the .458 WIN by increasing the COL is an interesting concept, however,
worth further consideration of the pressure and velocity numbers versus COL for specific loads.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
That link is an internet/computer mystery link. I had shifted out of typing and did a search on “lube sealant” and the computer did the rest.
Maybe my computer was contributing for the mission as well?

And thus it contributes more, for THE MISSION.
About those 500 Red Death bullets:
One pound of Harbor Freight Red powder-coat paint was about eight bucks, IIRC. It will do way more than 500 bullets, thousands of bullet.
Just keep the grease away from the next batch of bullets you cast. Water drop them from the mould and use vinyl gloves to handle them until they get painted.
Your favorite hard-cast bullet painted red, sized to .461", and propelled to 2200 fps:

Rip ...

sambarman338's .458 WIN LongCOL as "tropical loading" concept:

The SAAMI .458 WIN throat allows this to work within the confines of available action/magazine box length, not a problem with a single shot or a double rifle.

Just playing with QuickLOAD for pressure and velocity changes with AA-2230 and 500-grainer
for same powder charge,
with only a COL change of + 0.100" from 3.340" to 3.440":

Pressure drops by 9,432 PSI.
Velocity drops by 43 FPS.

Big pressure drop.
Little velocity drop.
All made possible by the throat of the SAAMI .458 WIN.

Or, with the LongCOL load,
you can add more powder and get a much higher velocity with same bullet at same or lower pressure.
That would not be a "Tropical Load."
More like a "Magnum Nitro Express Load."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
... If lube is a http://forums.accuratereloadin...es/blank.gifsealant,

Oops, forgot to ask what that vanished-image link was about?

As Archimedes once said:
"Give me some powder-coat paint and a .461" neck expander plug, and I can make any cast bullet work in a .458 WIN."

Rip ...

I thot Archimedes was the lever and fulcrum guy ????

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I thot Archimedes was the lever and fulcrum guy ????

Yep, and he is also the guy who screamed "EUREKA!"

I did that too, after a batch of powder-coat-painted bullets survived a heat-treat to 475 degrees F for a half hour followed by an ice-water dunk.
They stayed pretty, just got harder.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I thot Archimedes was the lever and fulcrum guy ????

Yep, and he is also the guy who screamed "EUREKA!"

I did that too, after a batch of powder-coat-painted bullets survived a heat-treat to 475 degrees F for a half hour followed by an ice-water dunk.
They stayed pretty, just got harder.

Rip ...

Yes, but did you run through the streets sans clothing once you made the discovery?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338's .458 WIN LongCOL as "tropical loading" concept:

The SAAMI .458 WIN throat allows this to work within the confines of available action/magazine box length, not a problem with a single shot or a double rifle.

Just playing with QuickLOAD for pressure and velocity changes with AA-2230 and 500-grainer
for same powder charge,
with only a COL change of + 0.100" from 3.340" to 3.440":

Pressure drops by 9,432 PSI.
Velocity drops by 43 FPS.

Big pressure drop.
Little velocity drop.
All made possible by the throat of the SAAMI .458 WIN.

Or, with the LongCOL load,
you can add more powder and get a much higher velocity with same bullet at same or lower pressure.
That would not be a "Tropical Load."
More like a "Magnum Nitro Express Load."

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, that sounds encouraging.

So, in the case I discover another Mauser 458, would that 3.44" cartridge fit in the mag?

Yes, I know I could look it up somewhere - but that wouldn't help the Mission.

bcelliott,

Thanks for asking, for THE MISSION.
No, I was dunking hot bullets in icewater, not taking a bath when I had my EUREKA moment.
True, Archimedes is also known as the father of streaking:
"Eureka he streaka."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... So, in the case I discover another Mauser 458, would that 3.44" cartridge fit in the mag?

Yes, I know I could look it up somewhere - but that wouldn't help the Mission.

Paul,
For THE MISSION, thanks.

Well, most standard boxes are going to require you to keep loads slightly below 3.4" in length to function through the box.
However you can single-shot load up to about 3.54" COL and still be able to eject that round from the chamber if you do not fire it,
by simply working the bolt of most standard length actions/magazine boxes.

Continuing the tropical load idea transformed into Magnum Nitro Express:

The specific numeric results in QuickLOAD for pressure and velocity are meaningless in dealing with the .458 WIN throat.

This strictly relative comparison might be somewhat less suspect, though not near enough shine given to LongCOL loading:
Using a 24" .458 WIN, 500-grain bullet long enough to allow 3.300" and 3.600" COL,
100.0 % fill with X,Y, or Z powders for 3.300" COL
95.2 % fill with same powders for 3.600" COL, using whatever greater charge of powder that is required to get to that fill.
Results:

Pressure of both is near identical (for example, 14 psi lower in LongCOL with X powder), less than 60,000 PSI for both 3.300" and 3.600".
Velocity of LongCOL load is 4 to 5 % greater, close to 100 fps faster.
Basically the difference between 2150-2200 fps with 3.300" COL
vs
2250-2300 fps with 3.600" COL.

Might be that a 3.600" COL in the .458 Lott has to run at greater pressure than 62,500 PSI to equal the velocity of a 3.600" COL in the .458 WIN at lesser pressure.
In that instance, the .458 Lott has run out of throat at 3.600" COL, but the .458 WIN LongCOL has not.

Rip ...

4sixteen,
Great illustration of how good the .458 Lott is with lightweight bullets.
The .458 WIN ain't too shabby with monometal copper lightweights, even better than the .458 Lott with heavier monometal copper.
The .458 WIN does OK with the usual cast lead at under 1400 fps.
Does better with .461"-caliber/545-gr hard-cast, powder-coat-painted bullets up to 2200 fps via LongCOL.

The CamPro bullets are a new one for me, the Canadian Berry's Bullets, eh?
I like the looks of their .458/450-gr designed for the .458 SOCOM.



I would put a second cannelure on that .008"-thick copper-plated, swaged-lead bullet,
(by eyeball it looks to be about 1.18" long if it is .458" in diameter)
and see how it did at not-too-fast MV in the .458 WIN LongCOL.

Rip ...

Rip,
I just use the Lee Factory Crimp die to put a "cannelure" like holding point, wherever I want the bullet to stay in a properly tension-ed neck. Seems to work fine.
Yes that 450 grain CamPro seems like a good option should we able to get them here.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip,
I just use the Lee Factory Crimp die to put a "cannelure" like holding point, wherever I want the bullet to stay in a properly tension-ed neck. Seems to work fine.

Yes, Obi-Wan Bob does that too. No doubt it is an adequate practice.
With a copper-plated, swaged-lead bullet like CamPro it would literally press a micro-cannelure into the bullet,
if the case mouth was left square on the inside.
My canneluring of that bullet with the CH4D Cann-Tool would be little more than a light marking of the bullet about 0.285" up from the base.
COL of the load would be about 3.39",
capable of working through the common 3.4" magazine box.

You can press lightly and do one revolution of the bullet in the Cann-Tool,
or press hard and do multiple revolutions until you make a real "mark" on monometals or steel jackets.
I always use the Lee Factory Crimp die on the .458 Win.


Yes that 450 grain CamPro seems like a good option should we able to get them here.

Looks like a "Mini-Money" bullet.

And what would be the top velocity allowed with that 450-grain "copper-patched" bullet for impact on game?
I guess 1400 fps might be OK?
The copper plating of 0.008" thickness is like the thickness of a paper patch.
Copper is a bit tougher than paper,
and won't cause flyers by not being shed at the muzzle.
The Mini-Money would be good for duplexed BP loads, and all sorts of reduced loads with AA-5744, etc.,
like 4sixteen is doing with the 405-grainer.

I guess that just for paper-punching it would not vaporize at 2450 fps MV from the .458 WIN LongCOL.
I would probably want to powder-coat-paint it until I could size it to .461" for smokeless loads and try to see how fast it could go with accuracy.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... So, in the case I discover another Mauser 458, would that 3.44" cartridge fit in the mag?

Yes, I know I could look it up somewhere - but that wouldn't help the Mission.

Paul,
For THE MISSION, thanks.

Well, most standard boxes are going to require you to keep loads slightly below 3.4" in length to function through the box.
However you can single-shot load up to about 3.54" COL and still be able to eject that round from the chamber if you do not fire it,
by simply working the bolt of most standard length actions/magazine boxes.

Continuing the tropical load idea transformed into Magnum Nitro Express:

The specific numeric results in QuickLOAD for pressure and velocity are meaningless in dealing with the .458 WIN throat.

This strictly relative comparison might be somewhat less suspect, though not near enough shine given to LongCOL loading:
Using a 24" .458 WIN, 500-grain bullet long enough to allow 3.300" and 3.600" COL,
100.0 % fill with X,Y, or Z powders for 3.300" COL
95.2 % fill with same powders for 3.600" COL, using whatever greater charge of powder that is required to get to that fill.
Results:

Pressure of both is near identical (for example, 14 psi lower in LongCOL with X powder), less than 60,000 PSI for both 3.300" and 3.600".
Velocity of LongCOL load is 4 to 5 % greater, close to 100 fps faster.
Basically the difference between 2150-2200 fps with 3.300" COL
vs
2250-2300 fps with 3.600" COL.

Might be that a 3.600" COL in the .458 Lott has to run at greater pressure than 62,500 PSI to equal the velocity of a 3.600" COL in the .458 WIN at lesser pressure.
In that instance, the .458 Lott has run out of throat at 3.600" COL, but the .458 WIN LongCOL has not.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, I'm wondering now how a 480-grain bullet might fit into this conversation.

Unless the Kynoch/Woodleigh shape is pointier than than the round-nose Winchester 500, and therefore longer, it should fit into the shorter magazines with even less trouble.

Presumably the Brits knew what they were doing with 480-grain bullets - H&H/Kynoch still used that weight in the 10-thou fatter .500/.465 slugs. I looked into an elephant skull once and was surprised at the air space between the thin, wine-carton-like separations. So, once the projectile gets through the thick skin, could penetration be less of an issue than we might think?

Penetration is still the issue we think it is. Those wafers were designed to give great strength with a minimum of weight and that they do. As to putting bullets through them, we have lots of data to tell us what that takes.
We also know what happens if you miss those sweet entryway points. Having said all that, I would think your 480 bullets would be no hindrance compared to a 500 as long as shape and strength qualities are equal.
I wish I could offer you lots of elephant shooting experience to back up my opinions but alas not. I would have thought the 450 flat point solid by North Fork to have been an ideal African companion to our Beloved 458WM. For the mission.