quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Most things are relative. If you are an excellent, cool shot such a Pondoro, a light rifle in .450/.400
is plenty for most purposes but ...

Brothers of the Four Five Eight, we must have picked the winner.
We are catching it from both sides.
First, the .458 Win. Mag. is inadequate for chest-beating braggadocio.
Now, it is too powerful for a gentleman's purposes, might make him sweat or bruise him, whether he just carried it or actually shot it!

Two packs of varmints have treed a hunter who has the ultimate varmint rifle slung, and is looking down at them, counting his bullets,
waiting for them to tire of their nonsense!

Rip ...

I appreciate everything that you are doing with the 458 Winnie
and I reserve the right to claim everything and the same for
the 416 Ruger, with the game field dominating .416 330gn GSC.

I will probably wait until entering my eighth decade before making a personal choice for a personal, best, all-purpose, walk-the-forest rifle.

416Tanzan,

Thanks for the reply. For my octagenarian years (if I live that long) I will keep a .416 Ruger as a backup to my .458 Win. Mag.
By then, they can be a matching pair, 3.4" boxes and happily SAAMI all the way.
But an old geezer could still slip a LongCOL load into the chamber now and then just for kicks.
Spare Depends or adult diapers could be used as disposable sissy pads.
If on safari, any wet adult diapers created by firing the LongCOL load can be secretively shoved down a warthog hole while I am off in the bush
doing my business.

Rip ...

Here's how you get rid of the wasp-waist on the 3.495" COL with 400-grain GSC HV:



The RCBS plug goes deep enough to iron out the wasp waist.
This would also allow a wee bit more room for powder.
I will do that in the future.

I have never even used that set of RCBS .458 Win. Mag. dies.
Its belling die is identical to the one in my RCBS .458 Lott die set, which has been well used also.
Screw it in 0.3 inches deeper for .458 Win. Mag.
Screw it out 0.3 inches shallower for .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

octagenarian

octogenarian is 80-89
while
the eighth decade is 71-80.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

octagenarian

octogenarian is 80-89
while
the eighth decade is 71-80.

Some of us are made of sterner stuff, would not consider stooping to a .416 Ruger until beginning ninth decade, but only if we have to.

That is going to give me at least 50 years with the glorious .458 Win. Mag. that I started shooting at age 30.

I won't mind being dead when I cannot handle a Four Five Eight.
.
.
.

Rip ...

I ironed out the wasp waist on the brass that had already been worked by the Redding FL-size and belling dies.
Just ran the same brass through the RCBS FL die then used the RCBS belling die.
Voila! More aesthetic and room for more powder: Add one more grain.

I used the drop tube, which seems to give about 1/8" of compaction of the 83.0-grain charge of AA-2230.
I then seated the bullets to 3.495" COL using the Lee seater die which marks the bullet nose less than the Redding seater does.
Minimal if any compression noted, I'll call it a 100% load.
Cartridges do not grow if left uncrimped for a half hour of observation.

So I crimped them with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
These are 3.495" +/- 0.002":



This is good.

Rip ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

That wasp-waisted load is beautiful to me. It is going to sting like a KILLER BEE.

Rip ...

RIP, all I can say is beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Those last ones are beautifully loaded indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Recoil for two verified loads in a 10.0-pound .458 Win.Mag. rifle:

500-grain Barnes TSX, 78.0 grains AA-2230, 2250 fps, COL 3.785"
Free Recoil:
Vel. = 21.3 fps
KE = 70.6 ft-lbs
Impulse = 6.6 lb-sec

400-grain GSC HV, 82.0 grains AA-2230, 2502 fps, COL 3.450"
Free Recoil:
Vel. = 19.8 fps
KE = 60.9 ft-lbs
Impulse = 6.2 lb-sec

Recall that the SAAMI (3.340" maximum COL) 500-grainer at 2150 fps had impulse of 6.3 lb-sec.

This 400-gr GSC HV at 2502 fps has slightly less recoil than the old standard 500-grain load in the .458 Win.Mag.

At 2300 fps, the old 400-grain X-Bullet had a lot less recoil and was more effective than any 500-grain softpoint on test media and big brown bears.
That is with SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. loads, according to Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker.
At 2500 fps the GSC HV 400-grainer might well be the ultimate game getter.

Rip ...

I'll have to stick around 2400 fps with the 400 grainers. BUT , there is a fair chance that I may gain velocity with the GSC HV. beins it's got the pressure relief valves( ok, there not actual valves)
I was rockin the 400 gr X bullet at 2400 fps with no problem. And they didn't have any pressure relief system or coatings on em. Iirc The 400 gr X bullet was going 2420 fps with no problems . But I detuned the load to 2380 fps. Never noticed any loss of killing power with the game I killed with that load.
Heck O Billy, I might get mid 2400s keeping the charge of 80 gr 2230. And length of 3.340 "
KaBango !

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

That wasp-waisted load is beautiful to me. It is going to sting like a KILLER BEE.

Rip ...

RIP, all I can say is beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Those last ones are beautifully loaded indeed!

Gustavo,

Thanks for the input. Your comment may have been akin to "the Emperor has no clothes," stating the obvious to the oblivious,
but it has spurred me to perfect the load, and add 5 more shots to the next outing.
25 shots to be reported here whenever I can get to the range.
The flood waters are receding, the mud is drying, my coughing abates.
This has been the worst bout of "flu" I ever had.
When I can go 5 minutes between coughing spasms, I will head to the range.
I am guessing the load with 83.0 grains of AA-2230 and 3.495" COL will be most outstanding,
like "the Emperor has clothes!"

Rip ...

CTF,

The short COL crowd will benefit from this bullet for sure.
Remember that you can load it a little longer than the 3.340" SAAMI maximum and it will still work well in the Ruger 3.4" box length.
Hells bells! 3.495" COL is all I want, and that will easily work as a single-loader to top off the chamber of your Ruger,
with a box full of SAAMI-COL FN solids of 450-grain weight, or whatever bullet you want.
I hope y'all will order some of these GSC HV bullets to keep the pipeline flowing.
You cannot go wrong there.

https://cheytac.com/gs-custom-bullets/

"Read here why GS Custom Bullets are superior.
There are 2 categories of GS Custom Bullets, stocking bullets that you see below, and custom bullets. Stocking bullets will ship within one week of paid order. Custom bullets will be made in batches as orders are received and clients will be informed of lead times.
More popular bullets will be manufactured on a regular basis and will become more readily available. We will continue to add bullets to the stocking category as demand warrants. If you wish to order a custom bullet, please see what we have available here. For more information, email info@cheytac.com or call 1-844-398-9101."

Or just order on your 'puter here:

http://www.gscustomusa.com/orderhvusa.html

There may be a switch-over going on with the listings of technical data on the bullets.
Here ia s a link that still has most of it working, to look up a BC, etc.,
it is linked at the CheyTac page on GSC USA bullets under "HV Bullets READ MORE":

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/hvtech.html

May the Four Five Eight Bros turn the .458/400grHV into a "stocking bullet" instead of its previous "custom bullet" status.




Rip ...

Thanks for the link !

I do need to try some of the 315 gr HV. See which my rifle prefers. My experience with the 300 gr X and TSX on Brown bear never left me wanting more bullet weight from a performance stand point anyway.
The gun nut side of me was another story all together. Always searching for that mythical perfect bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
My, all that velocity. 2500 fps with a 400 gr bullet. That's a bunch. Kinda moves the Fun part of the shooting equation farther away. I think the 2380 fps is sufficient for my needs . My rifle has proven itself very well with the 400 gr X @2380 fps so I'll stick with that vel. It kicks plenty enough for me.

Cold TF:
Fun is still obtainable, just farther away, as you say.

Like many things in life, if one learns to shoot 400grainers at 2600fps (e.g., with a hand loaded 416Rigby) then 400grains at 2500fps would feel comfortable. Jack O'Connor might have been coaxed to believe this, since he accepted that 400grains at 2400fps was reasonable, manageable and not abusive.

Now I haven't tried such loads prone, yet, for the simple reason that I don't get many prone opportunities in flat-land Africa. Sitting is usually necessary to shoot over bushes and grass, and comfortable. My personal motto is always keep a piece of cloth/leather between a forearm hand and the side of a tree/rest. Then hold on for a little ride, a smile, and good eating.

It's not that I can't handle that amount of recoil. Just that I have no Need to. Or want to.
Its kinda like. If a 458 Winchester, 500 gr bullet at 2150 will provide all the killing ability a guy needs. Why would a guy want to shoot a 460 Whby.
By the same token, I've never been hit so hard in a fist fight that I was even severely dazed. Doesn't mean I want to go find a bigger guy and let him plant one on my chin. If the 416 Whby kills any faster than the 416 Rem, I've never heard about it. Maybe it can , I've just never heard of it. And I know of a good bunch of bear that have been kilt with both the Rem and Whby. Seemed to require the same #of shots from either. Usually 1.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
It's not that I can't handle that amount of recoil. Just that I have no Need to. Or want to.
Its kinda like. If a 458 Winchester, 500 gr bullet at 2150 will provide all the killing ability a guy needs. Why would a guy want to shoot a 460 Whby.

Remember that in the .458 Win. Mag. a .458/400-grain monometal copper softpoint (HP) has been known to do better at everything than
any .458/500-grain softpoint known to man.
and it does it with less recoil and flatter trajectory.

By the same token, I've never been hit so hard in a fist fight that I was even severely dazed. Doesn't mean I want to go find a bigger guy and let him plant one on my chin.

Exactly that happened to me in my 1972 boxing class at Beast Barracks summer camp for boys. I won my first match, the second match I do not recall at all ...

If the 416 Whby kills any faster than the 416 Rem, I've never heard about it. Maybe it can , I've just never heard of it. And I know of a good bunch of bear that have been kilt with both the Rem and Whby. Seemed to require the same #of shots from either. Usually 1.

The 400-grain HV for the .458 Win. Mag.:

Better terminal results than any 500-grain softpoint.
Flatter trajectory.
Less recoil.
Seems to be the "Gamefield Dominator" for sure.

You know, at 2500 fps, you can zero it at 200-yards:
100 yards: +2.50"
Max ordinate at 117 yards: +2.59"
200 yards: 0.00"
250 yards: -4.18"
300 yards: About 1 foot low (-10.64")
400 yards: About 3 feet low (-31.77")
500 yards: About 5 feet low (-65.06")

Even Phil Shoemaker could remember that!

With the Nikon SlugHunter zeroed at 200 yards for the center of the crosshair,
there is now a precise aiming point at the "post" position of the reticle for a range of 998 yards.
This is the outer limit on 3X power.
Excellent for harassing fire.
If you set the scope on 9X power, the third BDC is exactly centered for 400 yards.
At that range a 10 mph crosswind drift is 19.20".
Time of flight of bullet to get there: 0.592 second.
That might be useful.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
But a little smaller than that has been used by many makers, with excellent results.
25" length?
Well, that was the length of the original "African" in 1956.
Legendary.

Rip ...

25"...good for dual use, shooting and fly casting!

I'd never go beyond 20" after all, who doesn't like a "jungle carbine" ??

I just grabbed those 4 loads as examples. I doubt I will ever hunt anything that needs more than a 400 gr bullet at 2400 ish fps and will probably use more lighter bullets than heavier.
In the 458 I stick with a 100 yard zero.
Depending on the optic I mount I will use either the mil marks or hold over marks for longer range.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Gustavo,

Thanks for the input. Your comment may have been akin to "the Emperor has no clothes," stating the obvious to the oblivious,
but it has spurred me to perfect the load, and add 5 more shots to the next outing.
25 shots to be reported here whenever I can get to the range.
The flood waters are receding, the mud is drying, my coughing abates.
This has been the worst bout of "flu" I ever had.
When I can go 5 minutes between coughing spasms, I will head to the range.
I am guessing the load with 83.0 grains of AA-2230 and 3.495" COL will be most outstanding,
like "the Emperor has clothes!"

Rip ...

RIP, you, the Emperor of the .458, rule this game. No one else has ever gone beyond your mark, pushing the limits to the no-limits.

The Emperor has clothes...and will always have

Looking forward to your full recovery, get on your both of your feet and get to the range. Can't wait to watch how the GS Custom saga develops.

Any future plans on rebarreling the Hawkeye to the almighty?

Gustavo,

I think my viral pneumonia from influenza is clearing out.
Left lower lobe and right lower lobe areas of lungs are alternating in diminishing painfulness,
and its getting easier to cough up the corruption.
But the wind has kicked up and I just don't feel like dealing with sandbagging the chronograph to keep it from toppling,
let alone the poor accuracy potential in the high winds today.
Otherwise I would be gone shootin' right now.

So I sit here planning the "African Queen"
a stainless Ruger Hawkeye with a 25" barrel length
and a James Wisner "African" rear sight,
in an HS Precision stock ... She is on the schedule,
I am considering finer points of design.

The Big Point: If the barrel grooves are a tight .458" minimum spec, and the throat is SAAMI minimum,
I might have to reduce my powder charges by 5% AND WORK UP AGAIN,
as should anyone else who has a rifle different from The WinCzechster,
for trying the HV and AA-2230.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

I think my viral pneumonia from influenza is clearing out.
Left lower lobe and right lower lobe areas of lungs are alternating in diminishing painfulness,
and its getting easier to cough up the corruption.
But the wind has kicked up and I just don't feel like dealing with sandbagging the chronograph to keep it from toppling,
let alone the poor accuracy potential in the high winds today.
Otherwise I would be gone shootin' right now.

So I sit here planning the "African Queen"
a stainless Ruger Hawkeye with a 25" barrel length
and a James Wisner "African" rear sight,
in an HS Precision stock ... She is on the schedule,
I am considering finer points of design.

The Big Point: If the barrel grooves are a tight .458" minimum spec, and the throat is SAAMI minimum,
I might have to reduce my powder charges by 5% AND WORK UP AGAIN,
as should anyone else who has a rifle different from The WinCzechster,
for trying the HV and AA-2230.

Rip ...

Those are really good news! If the big bores can't kill much less a microscopic virus!

Except for the "dual use" 25" barrel all seems to be lined up!

Temperature at the range today: 48 F at start and finish of .458 Win. Mag. shootin'.
54 F by the time I finished shooting the .475 Linebaugh LongCOL Ruger No.1.

All loads with Hornady brass and Federal GM215M primer (same as F215) and the GS Custom .458/400gr HV.
Rifle was, of course, the 24-7/8-barreled WinCzechster with Nikon 3-9X SlugHunter scope, now with 402 rounds on the scope.
All is well.

The first shot here was the slowest and landed high and to the right.
I adjusted the scope to the left and kept shooting.
One time I changed scope power from 9X to 3X,
and jerked the trigger a bit as I realized something was not quite right as I squeezed off.
I am going to be very happy with just a little over 2500 fps.
I will get it final-zeroed for 200 yards, next time out with the 400-grain HV.
Then see where the heavier bullets land at 100 yards.

In summary,
Powder charge increase raises velocity and COL increase lowers it, as long as you do not run out of throat.
But longer COL and proper throat allows more powder to be added for higher velocity without exceeding comfortable pressures.
And the longer COl does not hurt accuracy,
usually improves it, in a long throat.

I am going to stick with 82.0 grains of AA-2230, straight-sided, no wasp-waist, and 3.495" COL with the 400-grain HV at just past 2500 fps.
That is fast enough for all-around comfort.
Shootin' for accuracy at speed, next time out.

Rip ...

Great job Rip! Your work with the .458 Win long col has been truly eye opening!

Even though I really like the 450 gr TSX , I will have to give that GSC 400 grainer a try one of these days.

Bitchin' looked pretty nice. You might want to use it as a sample, control. 2478 fps will work as well as 2510fps.

You could also try Bitchin with 80.7 grains and 3.36" if you really want 2500fps. A word of caution is to check that the speeds over 2500fps-2525fps are not approaching a 'scatter point' in your barrel, sort of an 'anti-sweetspot'.

srshooter,
You will not be sorry if you try that 400-grain HV in a .458 Win. Mag., or even a .458 Lott (ugh).

Rip ...

416Tanzan,
I agree with the accuracy node/sweet spot thing on velocity.
I think there is a one-hole, 3-shot group hiding in the 8-shot hole.
Heck, that is a one-hole, eight-shot hole.
82.0 grains of AA-2230 and 3.495" COL is my poison.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
srshooter,
You will not be sorry if you try that 400-grain HV in a .458 Win. Mag., or even a .458 Lott (ugh).

Rip ...

Haha! Don't forget my .458 Lott is really a .458 Lotsmore with proper throating to load em as long as I like!!

I made a quick trip to Parker, Colorado, got back this morning.
Of course I had to run over to the Lone Tree Cabela's Gun Library while I was there.
They had a like-new .458 Lott Ruger RSM.
It does have some subtle tiger-striping, not quite fiddle-back, factory walnut, and original black rubber Ruger buttpadd.

https://www.cabelas.com/produc...3D18&Ntt=.458%2BLott

The price on it is $1900, rounded up one cent to nearest dollar.
That is a wee bit less than price for 100% in Blue Book.
Does not come with box though.
The rifle appears to have been a safe queen.
Looks new except for a few tiny dents in stock where it leaned up against the other safe queens in the safe.
I have hefted it and measured it.
Barrel is 23" long, 0.750" diameter muzzle beyond the barrel band.
Weight is 9#12oz.
If only it had been a .458 Winchester Magnum with the RSM box length,
I would have bought it.

Rip ...

Summer is coming.


Rip ...

One thing for sure, the 458 win. does have a following and apparently many are satisfied with 1900 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet..

I have no problem with a 500 gr bullet at 2100 FPS, Ive always said the 458 Win is a killer, just not my cup of tea, Id rather load a Lott down than a 458 win. up..

After 36 pages or repeat posts all saying the same ole same ole..I give up, but that's my story and Im sticking to it..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
One thing for sure, the 458 win. does have a following and apparently many are satisfied with 1900 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet ... just not my cup of tea ...

Atkinson,
2150 fps is a low-pressure load with 500-grainer and 3.340" COL using AA-2230 in the .458 Win. Mag. with a 24" barrel.
No offense intended, but your comments above show outdated ignorance, or purposeful bad poop, except the part about it not being your cup of tea.
That's what happens when you crap in the tea kettle.
Right.

Rip ...

Rip,
Now that's ugly! but without substance. I read the swift reloading manual and you accuse me of pooping! shame on ya..

Not sure you can load a 500 Swift A frame with 72 gr. of 2230 and achieve seating the bullet at a depth suitable to fit in a standard length magazine.
2230 is a very small spherical dense powder that does not easily compress. The 500 swift is just too long to squeeze in 72 gr 2230.
The Hornady or Woodley soft is a bit shorter and will work.
I like 74 gr 2230 and a 450 Swift at about 2300 FPS. A great accurate compact non compressed load that will easily fit into the standard length magazine.
The 500 Hornady or Woodley ahead of 72 gr. of 2230 is not compressed either. Just about 99% filled.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Rip,
Now that's ugly! but without substance. I read the swift reloading manual and you accuse me of pooping! shame on ya..

Atkinson,

Thanks for playing straight man for my comedy schtick.

Now I suspect your reading comprehension is faulty, or your memory ...

I have the SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO (C) 2014.
I purchased it at an NRA Convention, from the Swift Bullet Company "Ballistic Manager" himself, Brad Elder.
He autographed the inside front cover. He also told me that he had fired every load tested and reported in the book, all by his lonesome.
I have yet to find his name mentioned anywhere in the book, except his autograph witnessed by me.
I drove by the Quinter, Kansas exit on I-70 last Friday evening, would have stopped in at 1001 Swift Avenue, Quinter, KS 67752 if not so late.

Swift A-Frame bullets are notoriously tough, and I suspect "sticky" in the bore, with high start pressure.
That big, thick partition also makes them slightly long for weight.
They seem to give lower velocities or higher pressures, take your pick, than some other bullets.

Nevertheless, Brad Elder has some faster loads than you would allow in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Wiseman test barrel, 24" length, 1:14" twist
Federal case: trimmed to 2.490", 2.500" maximum
F215 primer
Maximum Cartridge O.A.L. = 3.340"

Maximum loads:

400-grain A-Frame: RL-15 83.0 grains >>> 2410 fps

450-grain A-Frame: H-4895 77.0 grains >>> 2292 fps

500-grain A-Frame: H-335 74.5 grains >>> 2116 fps
500-grain A-Frame: H-4895 71.0 grains >>> 2112 fps

Brad Elder seemed sane and trustworthy to me when I met him in person. That is some of his data.
He did not test any of the ACCURATE RELOADING POWDERS, however.

See the WESTERN POWDERS RELOADING & LOAD DATA GUIDE EDITION 6.0,
if you can do it without getting angry about this repeated repetition of redundant redundancy.

Rip ...

Atkinson: To keep your blood pressure down, don't look at the below,
in case you might spot some more repeated repetition of redundant redundancy.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Not sure you can load a 500 Swift A frame with 72 gr. of 2230 and achieve seating the bullet at a depth suitable to fit in a standard length magazine.
2230 is a very small spherical dense powder that does not easily compress. The 500 swift is just too long to squeeze in 72 gr 2230.
The Hornady or Woodley soft is a bit shorter and will work.
I like 74 gr 2230 and a 450 Swift at about 2300 FPS. A great accurate compact non compressed load that will easily fit into the standard length magazine.
The 500 Hornady or Woodley ahead of 72 gr. of 2230 is not compressed either. Just about 99% filled.

EZ

eezrider,

Thanks for that.
With a Woodleigh or Hornady RNSP, do you get about 2159 fps in a 24" barrel with 72.0 grains of AA-2230?
According to Western Powders, that is a 53,808 psi load at 3.305" COL, and no compression.

I have found that a 26"-long drop tube made from an aluminum arrow shaft will compact the AA-2230 considerably, without compression by force.

Rip ...