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I still love that picture of a buffalo taking a hit. Baaaammmm, smack! Ahooouch! Yes, I have noticed the SD and think that .272 is about ideal with monolithics and buffalo. But so is a .510" entrance wound. As for plains game, my AR Nyati shoots the 360tippedCEB about 2" higher than the GSC 450gn, and the 360gn leaves the barrel at 2800fps. Pretty awesome. Don't need a range finder out to 300 yards. But you are correct about the easier recoil. I'm still over two years to 70, but I'm thinking about the day when I will want to step down a bit. The 400grainGSC in a 458 is definitely a "player." But so is the 330gnGSC in a 416Ruger. We'll see what happens in a few years and what politics will have to say about East Africa. I will admit that a 400gnGSC in a 458 is a FORMIDABLE all-around load for East Africa. But you must admit that a 330gnGSC 416 Ruger also makes a FORMIDABLE all-around load. AN eland won't notice the difference of either, though I would choose the 458 for a buffalo. I always choose the heaviest, most-powerful, ACCURATE load for a buffalo. And the 330gn at 2600-2650fps is comfortable. Sweet. You know that. PS: FTR--the 500ARNyati can push the 450gnGSC at 2675fps, safely. (Yes, the Mbogo can go far beyond that.) However, 2675fps is just more than is necessary for hunting oribi, impala, and hartebeest. And 2600fps vs 2675fps makes things a smidgin more comfortable for all-around hunting. 100grains of H322 pushes the 450gnGSC at 2604fps in a 22" barrel. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yea, verily, it is as 416Tanzan says. And a rifleman has got to know his own limitations too.  Rip ... | |||
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This is post #28 on this page. I removed my shoes for that count, and was on fingers again (middle finger of left hand) to get that total. 12 more posts and we move on to page 34. Summary: 1. Over 2150 fps with 500-grain RNSP or FMJ (conventional bullets) in a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. with 24" barrel is easy. With 72.0 grains of AA-2230 the pressure is 53,808 psi for 2,159 fps and there is no powder compression. COL 3.305". Lightly compressed loads of AA-2460 (74.0 grains) will go faster (2,192 fps) at lower pressure (52,864 psi), COL is same 3.305". Above is Western Powders data, a source that I have found reliable. I consider them to be starting loads in my WinCzechster. Of course that Western Powders data was probably done with a minimum-SAAMI-spec barrel. Shorter-length barrels or longer-throated and wider-grooved barrels may take what they get from those loads or add more powder. 24" and longer barrels can add more powder too, if they want 2250 fps. Add LongCOL loading for 2350 fps. 2. In the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag., 450-grainers of all types can be run at +2300 fps MV, easily. That will do nicely for anything needing doing. 3. The SAAMI .458 WinMag is tricky with cast bullets. Some rifles are easier than others to get cast bullets shooting accurately at good speed. I think it probably has to do with length of throat. Some have SAAMI minimum throats, and some do not, tight bores versus looser bores, etc. But even the slightly longish 3/4" throat jump and .459"-groove (Meets SAAMI minimums! Can be greater, not less than minimum, for safety!) can be made to shoot cast bullets sub-MOA and plenty fast, with a little effort. 4. LongCOL (non-SAAMI) loading in either a 3.6" box or a 3.8" box length allows one to beat a .458 Lott with same box length. It is the magic of the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat, and the handicapping in the SAAMI .458 Lott throat, that allows this. 5. Some have said that 2500 fps with a 400-grainer is excessive in a .458 WinMag. I hope to prove that wrong with the GSC HV.  Rip ... | |||
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I think this was about where I got so inundated with work that my brain drizzled. Sorry for not replying sooner. Now I have a bunch of pages to catch up. With a new 338 winny Kimber Montana coming home soon . It looks as if I'll semi retire my 9.3x64 and stick with a 3 gun battery of 6.5 Creedmoor, 338 Winchester and 458 Winchester. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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three-gun options are nice. Jim Carmichael wrote a piece once on 458, 338, and 280 as his three to do the world. The 338 winMag makes a great middle number. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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So in 33 pages we have learned that the 458 Win easily matches the ballistics that Jack Lott desired. And Joe Smithson has built one of the classiest and quick handling .458's ever ! Not sure I am quite ready to trade Ole Ugly for one, but gave it some serious consideration. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Well, I have a 1917 action with the ears already ground off and a G.R. Douglas .458 1-14 twist blank, a .458 WM might be in order! What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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When you test the 400 grain GSC, please start it in a 3.4" configuration as a benchmark. 100-yard and 300-yard groups would be nice, maybe a penetration test of your choosing. You are going for gold, remember? Then some of us will try to figure out if the 416 Ruger with a 330 GSC at 2650-2700fps is silver, platinum, or gold, too. Here is a penetration index comparison for bullets of approximately equal construction and remarkable weight retention (momentum/diam^squared): 400grainx 2.500/.458^2 = 4767 penetration index. 330grain x 2.7/.416^2= 5149 penetration index. I will let Alf calculate an index for expanded GSC's, at this stage I'm just assuming that it would be proportional. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yep, will shoot them shortCOL and then show how only slightly longer COL allows greater speed and accuracy. Rip ... | |||
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We will need penetration, too.
The index points above have dropped the velocity by 1/1000 to get more manageable numbers. what is predicted above is the greater SD of the 400gn.458" will be more than compensated by the extra velocity of 330gn.416". (In the real world this might be modified by different rates of expansion for the otherwise similarly constructed bullets.) The extra velocity for the .416" is more than would be expected from simply changing bullet weights and is not overcome by the "diameter" factor where wider bores can convert more powder-pressure into muzzle energy. This is because the .416Ruger has an additional 10 grain case capacity even though they are similar-length cases. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The Penetration Index touted by Art Alphin is just as reality-based as the Bwana Saeed Index touted by Ronnie B. Higher velocity gives greater aqueous and visco-elastic tissue resistance, and all which that entrails, er, uh, entails. Post #36 here, only 4 more to go before starting page 34, thanks for the entertainment y'all. Rip ... | |||
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Thank You ! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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And for rambling around my 375 Whelen A.I. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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the answer is 'yes', that will need checking out. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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My, all that velocity. 2500 fps with a 400 gr bullet. That's a bunch. Kinda moves the Fun part of the shooting equation farther away. I think the 2380 fps is sufficient for my needs . My rifle has proven itself very well with the 400 gr X @2380 fps so I'll stick with that vel. It kicks plenty enough for me. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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RIP, how many rounds do you have on the Slug Hunter scope now? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Cold TF: Fun is still obtainable, just farther away, as you say. Like many things in life, if one learns to shoot 400grainers at 2600fps (e.g., with a hand loaded 416Rigby) then 400grains at 2500fps would feel comfortable. Jack O'Connor might have been coaxed to believe this, since he accepted that 400grains at 2400fps was reasonable, manageable and not abusive. Now I haven't tried such loads prone, yet, for the simple reason that I don't get many prone opportunities in flat-land Africa. Sitting is usually necessary to shoot over bushes and grass, and comfortable. My personal motto is always keep a piece of cloth/leather between a forearm hand and the side of a tree/rest. Then hold on for a little ride, a smile, and good eating. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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CTF, Only 359 shots fired with the Nikon SlugHunter on the .458 Win.Mag. WinCzechster. And it just keeps getting better. Last session produced a 0.19 MOA 3-shot/50-yard group with the 500-grain TSX at 2250 fps, and 1.45 MOA with same bullet and conditions at 2344 fps. Still not maxed out. Recoil with fast 400-grainer: Old standard .458 WinMag DGR load (comfortable in non-braked 10-pounder): 500-grain Hornady RNSP 71.0 grains IMR-3031 (tested true in my rifle, moose killer load certified comfortable by me) 2150 fps Recoil Impulse = 6.3 lb-sec .458 WinMag, Western Powders Reloading & Load Data Guide Edition 6.0: 400-grain Barnes SSSP bullet 76.0 grains AA-2015 2468 fps Recoil Impulse = 6.0 lb-sec (even more comfortable in non-braked 10-pounder) When I get the powder charge weight for the 400-grainer at 2500 fps tested true, I will run that number for recoil impulse and free-recoil KE&velocity in a non-braked 10-pound rifle. It is going to be mighty close to a standard 500-grainer at 2150 fps, maybe less. A lot of macho men will consider that to be plumb puny recoil. Not worth beating their chests about it. Rip ... | |||
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A 34-page diatribe on the 458 Win Mag? We must all have cabin fever! | |||
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Dear Biebs, This is no brief and bitter diatribe. Your one-liner there is a diatribe. This is no simple, desultory philippic either, but just the opposite. We sing the praise for the .458 Winchester Magnum here, and demonstrate the truth and dispel the false. We recount the historical and legendary events and exploits of the .458 Winchester Magnum here. This is the "Saga of the Four Five Eight" and then some. Thanks for adding to the thread. This is reply #6 of page 34. (34 more replies and we start page 35) Rip ... | |||
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What would the ideal .458 WM look like(Barrel length, action, weight, ect.)? What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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RIP, I love the 458 WM, so keep singing the praise :-) | |||
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Interesting - A scope wearing in! Let's hope it takes at least as long again to wear out. | |||
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Nah, the excellent Nikon scope is unchanging, the loads got better and the excellent Nikon scope allowed this to be observed. Nikon scopes do not get easily destroyed. Rip ... | |||
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20 to 25 inches of barrel. 3.4" to 3.8" boxed M98 Mauser, M77 Ruger Hawkeye, M70 Winchester, or CZ 550 Magnum. +/- 10.0 pounds field ready. Stainless or Robar NP3+ Chrome-moly. Synthetic stock. I could not possibly settle for only one ideal, I will need at least three different .458 Win.Mag. rifles. It is afterall such a versatile cartridge ... Rip ... | |||
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Well, I have an old Douglas .458 blank inbound that I may pair with my 1952 FN Action. I'm thinking 25 inches long but as light a contour as reasonable. What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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Sounds perfect and a lot like my WinCzechster, one of the most "interesting" rifles I own. That rifle is 8#2oz naked.  Mighty close to 10# when fully dressed.  Ms. Chimera WinCzechster: CZ 550 Magnum barrel (set back a mere 1/8", re-threaded and re-chambered) installed on a Pre-'64 M70 Winchester action. Barrel 24-7/8" long and 0.670" diameter at the muzzle. That is equivalent to about a Douglas No.4 Sporter contour. About as light as you should go IMHO. Common wisdom is to make the muzzle diameter of a .458-caliber rifle >/= 0.708". But a little smaller than that has been used by many makers, with excellent results. 25" length? Well, that was the length of the original "African" in 1956. Legendary.    I'd love to pattern one exactly like the "African" above except with a 3.6"-magazine-length. That is more than enough magazine length for the GSC HV .458/400-grainer, the "Game Field Dominator Bullet" loaded long as possible. Rip ... | |||
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25"...good for dual use, shooting and fly casting!   I'd never go beyond 20" after all, who doesn't like a "jungle carbine" ?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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We have some mighty serious trout up here! What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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Then you will be well served by a 25" barrel for fishing. I'd take a stainless Ruger Hawkeye .458 Win.Mag. with a 20" barrel along too, in a shoulder holster, just so you don't have to risk cutting the line if you have a fish on and a bear attacks. A monster trout tugging on the barrel of the 25-incher might throw your aim off at the moment of truth. Yep, I need one of those Rugers too. It ought to hang just right in a Bianchi Ranger Rig on the left side, or maybe a cross-draw scabbard like for a sword, stuck down the left leg of my tundra tennis shoes (hip waders), while I fish with a 25-incher. Rip ... | |||
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BTW, y'all, I am tracking my package of .458/400-gr HV bullets, shipped within the past 24 hours. This is reply # 17 of page 34. Rip ... | |||
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Cant' wait to see you bearing a 20" jungle carbine on a M77 Hawkeye. Call it the .458 Vampire!  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Gustavo, .458 Vampire? I don't get it. The .458 Win.Mag. does not suck. So it could not possibly suck blood. The Ruger .458 Jungle Carbine would wear either a canoe paddle "Zytel" stock or a laminated birch one with handguard, jawohl K98 style. Either one could be handy on a fishing trip. #19 Rip ... | |||
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 The Game Field Dominator Bullet has arrived. 1:14" twist, standard on most .458 Winner Magnums, is well within sufficient, not too fast for good accuracy out to 500 yards, with this bullet. Anyone building a .458 Win.Mag. would do well to just go with the conventional wisdom of 1:14" twist, IMHO. Halfway through page 34. Rip ... | |||
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41 F and raining right now. Elvis sings it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU2U3QAUGak It was in the 70s F and drizzly yesterday and the cicadas were chirping.  Faked out by a false spring. Looks like sun and 50s F on Sunday coming up, otherwise rain for next two weeks if the weather predictions are correct. Unlikely! Better be ready to shoot some of these Sunday:  Summer is coming! Rip ... | |||
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 What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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I like the 14" twist. That Douglas barrel should make an excellent fishing rod. Rip ... | |||
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Think about it, a Vampire is always thirsty, eternal and owns the field. Fears no one and is always up to the task. And the .458 sucks blood indeed like no other one  Zytel is perfect!
Mixing up a fishing trip with a hunting outing is, well, not a bad idea though not my idea.  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Gustavo, I sort of get it, but I would rather call it the ".458 Vampire Hunter" not the evil sounding ".458 Vampire." Remember "Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter" the book and movie? That had a cool ring to it.      I am hoping to shoot the HV tomorrow, if the weather prediction is correct. Taking some sandbags to hold a ProChrono down if the wind blows:  I also have some .475 Linebaugh LongCOL loads to try. .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw: The Bastard King in the North .475 Linebaugh LongCOL: The World's Most Powerful Dwarf Game of Rifles. Summer is coming. Rip ... | |||
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