Always a good question, Gustavo.
The Ruger case, fit into a 458 Win platform, will add about 100 fps over the Win Mag.

That translates to about the difference between a 20" and a 24" barrel. A 24" barrel would do about 100fps more than a Win Mag, while the 20" barrel would duplicate the 24"-Win-Mag performance, in a 20" barrel. All of these could be relatively expanded, depending on the size of the action used, from standard length to magnum.

The shallow shoulder is still a shoulder, and "the price of doing business." It is the shoulder that is left when coming down from the Rigby-size case (.585-.590") to the Ruger/magnum dimension (.532"). The neck will be quite nice if using Ruger-basic brass.

My Rugercat dummy collection:

The .264 Ripmoor actually exists, as does the .395 Max, working rifles.
The .264 Ripmoor has shoulder set back to make the neck exactly caliber length.
The ".395 Max" is a straight neck-up of the .375 Ruger for .395-caliber,
for us Mad Max types.

Necking up the .375 Ruger increases neck length appropriately as bullet diameter increases.
Necking down the .375 Ruger shortens the neck more than desirable for the bullet diameter decrease.

For any bullet caliber below .375-caliber I would use the "Ripmoor" shoulder distance from base.
Above .375-caliber I would use the SAAMI standard .375 Ruger shoulder location:




Rip ...

Two .458/.416 Ruger dummies side-by-side:



Not a bad shoulder and neck at all, even with just necking up the once-fired .416 Ruger brass.

416Tanzan's assessment sounds good, as educated guesstimation,
but it would require throating like the SAAMI .458 Win. Mag.
Using a throat like on the SAAMI .458 Lott would be a handicap.
I threw in the 3.590"-COL dummy along with the 3.340"-COL dummy as a reminder of the magic possible with this cartridge too,
.458 Winchester Magnum Meat Loaf Magic.

Rip ...

Those shoulders look fine. Very fine.

They are probably about an extra 50% more shoulder over the skinny 400 Whelen (about .030" diameter vs. 0.021"), so good to go.

And you are correct about the neck-length. Although on the short side it is more than adequate these days, as the 300WM long ago proved. Still, if one had Ruger Basic, a longer neck is possible with the same shoulder.

Ruger themselves already set the 375 and 416 with short necks around 81% of bore diameter, so you are probably good just to keep the same shoulder. The only remaining reason for the Basic would be to have rounds without a head-stamp.

Reamer minimums:

400 Whelen-Petrov (G&H) PT&G: 23*, 0.4580" Shoulder diameter, 0.4410" Neck-1 diameter

.416 Ruger SAAMI: 30*, 0.5161" Shoulder diameter, 0.4450" Neck-1 diameter

(.458" - .416" = 0.042", add this to Neck-1 diameter of reamer minimum spec)

.458/.416 Ruger: 30*, 0.5161" Shoulder diameter, 0.4870" Neck-1 diameter

Actual neck diameter measurements on .458/.416 Ruger dummies:
0.484" Neck-1
0.483" Neck-2

That will work, for the .458/.416 Ruger:
Reamer Neck-1 minimum = 0.4870"
Reamer Neck-2 minimum = 0.4860"

Everything else is same as .416 Ruger and .375 Ruger, except for the throat, which is same as .458 Winchester Magnum.

The brass maximum length is 2.580".
The chamber minimum length to start of the Neck-2 "chamfer down to throat" is 2.590".

The .458/.416 Ruger is 0.008" longer than the .458 Winchester Magnum. How's that for some extra pepper in the meat loaf?

400 Whelen-Petrov shoulder step (per side) = 0.0085" with 23* semi-angle
.458/.416 Ruger shoulder step (per side) = 0.0146" with 30* semi-angle, rounded to nearest 1/10,000th inch.

That is 72% greater shoulder step and 30% more angle.

Therefore, by thumb suck: The .458/.416 Ruger has a 102% more effective shoulder than the 400 Whelen.
102% of effective is EFFECTIVE.

Engrave the barrel ".458/.416 Ruger" and the .416 Ruger headstamp is good.
Just like Saeed gets away with ".375/404 Jeffery" using 404 Jeffery brass.

Uh oh.
I need to go lie down and see if if this urge will go away, like it did in 2007.

Rip ...

You know, 400 grains of a GSC at 2654fps would thump a lonely mbogo. But anything over 2600fps is pushing things, hard.

Still, 2600fps is my ideal of a rifle for roaming an African forest. Between the trees, across a meadow, one load to rule them all. Maybe it's modern inflation from the old 2400 standard. But today we have better bullets and can run them a little flatter at 2600.

I dunno, I think having a rifle and the constant ability to shoot offhand for most game to 200 yards is more important than running 6k ft lbs with a rifle that is tireing to pack around.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
You know, 400 grains of a GSC at 2654fps would thump a lonely mbogo. But anything over 2600fps is pushing things, hard.

Still, 2600fps is my ideal of a rifle for roaming an African forest. Between the trees, across a meadow, one load to rule them all. Maybe it's modern inflation from the old 2400 standard. But today we have better bullets and can run them a little flatter at 2600.

416Tanzan,

There you go again, contributing to the delinquency of the elderly.
I had to get out the abacus to check your numbers.
They are pretty close to mine,
for 24-7/8" CZ barrel, and once-fired Hornady brass:



The abacus says the .458/.416 Ruger at 3.4" COL is only 2.1 grains of water smaller than the .458 Lott at 3.6" COL.
If you load them both to 3.6" COL:
The .458/.416 Ruger is 6.2 grains of water greater in capacity than the of the .458 Lott,
according to the abacus.

At 3.5" COL which loads off the top of the box and ejects as loaded or spent ammo, from the 3.4"-boxed Ruger M77,
the .458/.416 Ruger betters the longer, 3.6" .458 Lott by 2.1 grains,
according to my abacus.

So, yes, a 20"-barreled .458/.416 Ruger ought to equal a 24"-barreled .458 Win. Mag., even with 3.340"-COL loading.

Due to the Magic Meat Loaf Throat on the .458/.416 Ruger, at 3.4" COL it will at least equal the .458 Lott at 3.6" COL when barrel length is same for both.

Load both of them to 3.6" COL with same barrel length, and the .458 Lott will eat dust for sure.


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I dunno, I think having a rifle and the constant ability to shoot offhand for most game to 200 yards is no (sic) (more?) important than running 6k ft lbs with a rifle that is tireing to pack around.

Yep,
With the .458/.416 Ruger top loads, recoil is worse than the old standard 500-grainer at 2150 fps in the .458 Win. Mag.
But reduced loads could be used, even with fillers!
Play with LongCOL loading for accuracy.
You sure won't need to use a drop tube, nor powder compression.
Lots more versatile on the powder selection.
Any .458 Win.Mag. rifle can be rechambered.
Uh oh, I seem to be talking myself into this.
CZ 550 Magnum or Ruger M77 Mark II/Hawkeye, Winchester M70 or Mauser 98.


Rip ...

Really Need to proof read my typing mo bettah.
Thanks for the catch.

For me it comes down to brass availability . And nostalgia/ familiarity. I built The Spruce King to hide behind and hunt with for the rest of my life. It never let me down yet.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

On 270/7mm, I'll take the 270Win and 280Rem over the magnums. (Yes, really. If I want over 150 grains I would prefer a larger caliber. With light bullets the 270 acts like a magnum.)

The 257Roberts over the 25-06. (Just 'cuz the Bob is cool. )
The 243Win over the 244Rem, but the Bob over the 243

Blah, Blah, Blah


Except for these, these I agree with.

The .458 Win. Mag. has spawned the .458/.416 Ruger.
By golly, about all of the excellence of the .458 Win. Mag can be performed by the .458/.416 Ruger.
It does crowd a magazine a little more at the front end, but it is roomier in the powder chamber.
Is this the last reply on page #38.
Will there be a page #304?

Rip ...

Perhaps.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .458 Win. Mag. has spawned the .458/.416 Ruger.
By golly, about all of the excellence of the .458 Win. Mag can be performed by the .458/.416 Ruger.
It does crowd a magazine a little more at the front end, but it is roomier in the powder chamber.
Is this the last reply on page #38.
Will there be a page #304?

Rip ...

RIP (van winkle),
If you hadn't fallen asleep back in 2011 I might have built a .458/.416Ruger.
But as it is, I have a .510" that is comfortably downloaded to 2600fps with a 450gnGSC. Boom!
They're all good. 6000ft#, 6750ft#, whatever.

quote:

At 3.5" COL which loads off the top of the box and ejects as loaded or spent ammo, from the 3.4"-boxed Ruger M77,
the .458/.416 Ruger betters the longer, 3.6" .458 Lott by 2.1 grains,
according to my abacus.

This is a good reason for loading solids under the top round. Solids are shorter and allow more powder capacity and can probably duplicate the MV and POI of the top round out to about 150-200 yards, after which the flat-nose solid really starts to lose steam. But those are only follow-up shots anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
For me it comes down to brass availability . And nostalgia/ familiarity. I built The Spruce King to hide behind and hunt with for the rest of my life. It never let me down yet.

No problems with brass,
and there are no flies on your Spruce King. Put in a 400gnGSC and romp around from the tundra to the islands.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stradling:
one might just get that done

cost up- no belt -more volume - more recoil - wild cat rig

question is why
what can you hope to achieve over a standard 458 win mag OF SIGNIFICANT PURPOSE
the world asks

550 grain woodleigh in the 458 win mag hits hard enough to kill you in not very many shots

I guess I like hunting at 2600fps over 2500fps, having spent a lifetime at 2800fps+.

I like the 338Wm over the Federal and 338-06. Almost flat to 300 yards.
I like the hand loaded 416Rigby over the 416Ruger. (But I'm willing to reconsider if I get tired of the recoil and heavy rifle.)
On paper, I prefer the 30-06 over the 308. (The 308 is great for impala and such, but 30-06 does better with heavier bullets for larger animals.)

We may be closer than you think on smaller bore.
On 375 I prefer the Ruger over the 378Weatherby.
In 33 I really like the 338WM, but you could talk me into something bigger if the rifle was light.
On 30-cal I am happy with a 30-06 over a 300WM and prefer the 338WM for larger animals.
On 270/7mm, I'll take the 270Win and 280Rem over the magnums. (Yes, really. If I want over 150 grains I would prefer a larger caliber. With light bullets the 270 acts like a magnum.)
The 260 and the Swede over the 264.
The 257Roberts over the 25-06. (Just 'cuz the Bob is cool. )
The 243Win over the 244Rem, but the Bob over the 243.
The 223 over the 22-250. The 223 does spur-wing geese just fine. (Back in the day we used 222.)[/QUOTE)

I've proven to myself too many times that a 400gr to 465gr in .458 (.45-70) is more effective on bears than anything else I've had success with to deny reality.

Approximate equal bears at the same location on different seasons (100 yards over bait): a 405gr Remington leaving the muzzle of my Marlin Classic (22") at 2110 fps impacted bear behind right shoulder and made exit in offside flank. Bear dead on the spot. Never moved 1". No CNS involved. My friend shot a good bear at the same bait a year or so later with his .338 Win Mag (26") using a 210 NP at 3000 fps. The bear bawled several times and I found it about 40 yards behind the bait headed for the huge bog. It was a good shot.

In 2015, I shot a good bruin at 85 yards (over bait), from a tree stand so the angle was downward. The 250gr AccuTip from my 9.3 x 62 was exiting the muzzle at 2700+ fps. A good shot was made high in the ribs and bullet blew the heart to jelly, making exit low in chest behind left front leg. Loss of blood was massive. The bear died in stride but still made 25 yards. In the same field/property, in 2013 I shot a nice bear using the 9.3 x 62 by employing the 286 NP at 2622 fps at 67 yards. It was a frontal shot and the bullet fell out of the right flank on skinning. Bear went 40 yards. Impact was about 2500 fps/4000 ft-lbs. From the same treeline in 2011, I shot a slightly larger 6' bear frontally using a single-shot NEF .45-70 employing a 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps at about the same range (70 yards). The bear dropped so fast I lost sight of him in the tall grass. Again, no CNS hit. He was dead on the spot. That 465gr hardcast was never found.

Do I believe in .458-cal? You betcha! Less KE but much more momentum and much larger frontal cross-sectional-area is the key.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only

I've proven to myself too many times that a 400gr to 465gr in .458 (.45-70) is more effective on bears than anything else I've had success with to deny reality

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I certainly agree and have long asserted that the more I experimented with big bores, up to and including the 505 Gibbs, the more impressed I became with the standard 458.

I do believe the most effective loads noted by Phil and Finn in the standard .458 Win. Mag. were 400-grain X-bullets at about 2300 fps, more or less.
Easy to do with a 20" barrel nowadays.
2500 fps with the 400-grain HV from a 24" barrel is more than enough.

I am hereby bailing on the .458/.416 Ruger again. For the adventurous, or the guys who want to match the MV of The King of Big Bores in a 20" barrel,
the .458/.416 Ruger design specs are posted above, released to the gun trade.

The .458 Win. Mag. is still The King of Big Bores IMHO too. It is also a good pairing with the .30-06 as a ballistic twin, training rifle.
The .30-06 vanilla ice cream is for dessert after main course of .458 Meat Loaf.
Practice with cheaper .30-cal bullets will save on expense of 400-grain HV bullets.
I just need to find a .30-06 bullet with a G1 BC of .372, whatever the 200-ish-grain weight and load it to 2500 fps MV.
then slap a couple of Nikon SlugHunter scopes on a couple of Ruger M77 Mark II or Hawkeye stainless & synthetic rifles.
A Leupold scope for each as backup.
One custom-chambered as SAAMI .458 Win. Mag., the other in .30-06, straight from factory, tuned up of course.

That is an ultimately practical "2-rifle battery."
They could also go their own way for trajectories,
with the .30-06 possibly adapted for smaller game.
Captain Obvious here.

I have plenty more rifles,
more powerful, less powerful, faster, slower, bigger-bored, smaller-bored, exotic, weird, more expensive, cheaper,
prettier, uglier, some really ugly, fancy walnut stocked galore safe queens ...
But none more practical.
Get my drift?

Rip ...

quote:

I am hereby bailing on the .458/.416 Ruger again. For the adventurous, or the guys who want to match the MV of The King of Big Bores in a 20" barrel,
the .458/.416 Ruger design specs are posted above, released to the gun trade.

But you've had enough sleep. It's time for a bright sunshiney morning.

I was looking forward to at least one rifle shooting a few groups at 2600fps+.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Always a good question, Gustavo.
The Ruger case, fit into a 458 Win platform, will add about 100 fps over the Win Mag.

That translates to about the difference between a 20" and a 24" barrel. A 24" barrel would do about 100fps more than a Win Mag, while the 20" barrel would duplicate the 24"-Win-Mag performance, in a 20" barrel. All of these could be relatively expanded, depending on the size of the action used, from standard length to magnum.

The shallow shoulder is still a shoulder, and "the price of doing business." It is the shoulder that is left when coming down from the Rigby-size case (.585-.590") to the Ruger/magnum dimension (.532"). The neck will be quite nice if using Ruger-basic brass.

Tanzan you certainly made a good point on the shoulder, not my ideal but close. And if all I get is just 100fps over the Almighty, enough said. No need to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I do believe the most effective loads noted by Phil and Finn in the standard .458 Win. Mag. were 400-grain X-bullets at about 2300 fps, more or less.
Easy to do with a 20" barrel nowadays.
2500 fps with the 400-grain HV from a 24" barrel is more than enough.

I am hereby bailing on the .458/.416 Ruger again. For the adventurous, or the guys who want to match the MV of The King of Big Bores in a 20" barrel,
the .458/.416 Ruger design specs are posted above, released to the gun trade.

The .458 Win. Mag. is still The King of Big Bores IMHO too. It is also a good pairing with the .30-06 as a ballistic twin, training rifle.

Rip ...

As usual Phil and Finn are right on the money. Who may need more speed for a job well done provided recoil is starting to become an issue for us non-lovers of braked guns.

Yeah! King is and will be for ever. Only the ".458 Ruger" (in case Hornady makes it happen) could be laid out as crown prince.

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the forum, although I've read and learned a lot over the past couple of years. I've followed this thread from the first, and have been gratified to see Bob Mitchell's work with this caliber acknowledged here. He and I have corresponded about heavy loads in 9.3x62 and wildcat ideas, among others, and he was instrumental in my first .458 Win Mag rifle purchase. I recently bought a New Haven Super Express 22" M70 controlled feed, and am wanting a bit more out of it. I have a couple of questions...

First, can any of you suggest a good smith to open the box to 3.6", modify the extractor, and reinforce the stock? I'd like the flexibility in COL for experimenting with monometallic bullets.

Second, and only out of curiosity (Bob convinced me not to rechamber this rifle to Lott, Ruger, or AccRel), if a hunter had a .458 Ruger, in a pinch and out of ammo, could he throw in a Win Mag cartridge and safely fire and eject the case? I understand that it's not close to optimal, since velocity would suffer, the case would be expanded beyond salvage, and headspace would be entirely on the extractor, since case length of the Win Mag is shorter and there is no shoulder and no belt support in the chamber.

Thanks for your help and for all the informative posts here.

Hi bc elliott,

Welcome to the forum.
With your help we can get this thread to page 304 and beyond.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the forum, although I've read and learned a lot over the past couple of years. I've followed this thread from the first, and have been gratified to see Bob Mitchell's work with this caliber acknowledged here. He and I have corresponded about heavy loads in 9.3x62 and wildcat ideas, among others, and he was instrumental in my first .458 Win Mag rifle purchase.

Bob has done some excellent work. Do you have a copy of his reloading manual on the .458 Win. Mag.? We need a second edition!

I recently bought a New Haven Super Express 22" M70 controlled feed, and am wanting a bit more out of it. I have a couple of questions...

First, can any of you suggest a good smith to open the box to 3.6", modify the extractor, and reinforce the stock? I'd like the flexibility in COL for experimenting with monometallic bullets.

All that is very basic work. I have done it myself as a bubba, with faultless results.
I did it to convert a 400 Whelen 3.4" to 400 Whelen 3.6" on an M70.
Any local gunsmith will consider it bread and butter.
Maybe someone in your neighborhood will chime in.

You mean "ejector/bolt stop" not "extractor" above.
The Winchester M70 CRF extractor is fine.
The ejector merely needs to be ground, filed and polished to shorten it enough to allow the bolt to travel rearward about 0.2" more
and to eject the longer round at the end of that travel.
The exterior of the action (ejection port) needs no work, it is big enough to eject a loaded 3.6" COL.
Your current magazine box merely needs the block at the back of it removed. Just drill out the 4 spot welds and pop out the blocker.
Cross bolts and glass bedding are also bread and butter for any gun doctor worth his salt.
See one, do one, teach one, just like medical practice.
The Winchester M70 post-'64 actions are the easiest of all I can think of to change from 3.4" box to 3.6" box length.
They are blocked off .375 H&H-length actions.
The Pre-'64 M70's are .30-06-length actions that were opened up expertly at the factory if chambered for the .375 H&H length cartridges.
A much bigger chore.

Second, and only out of curiosity (Bob convinced me not to rechamber this rifle to Lott, Ruger, or AccRel), if a hunter had a .458 Ruger, in a pinch and out of ammo, could he throw in a Win Mag cartridge and safely fire and eject the case? I understand that it's not close to optimal, since velocity would suffer, the case would be expanded beyond salvage, and headspace would be entirely on the extractor, since case length of the Win Mag is shorter and there is no shoulder and no belt support in the chamber.

I would never do that. Too much possibility for a case rupture.

Thanks for your help and for all the informative posts here.

The Four Five Eight Fraternity welcomes you.

Rip ...

If you want 2600 fps, It's not hard to do with a 350 gr TSX bullet in the Win mag.
I'm still waiting to hear the first report of a 350 gr X or TSX bullet failure on a cape buffalo.
And the 300 gr X and now TSX are great killers @ around 2700 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
For me it comes down to brass availability . And nostalgia/ familiarity. I built The Spruce King to hide behind and hunt with for the rest of my life. It never let me down yet.

No problems with brass,
and there are no flies on your Spruce King. Put in a 400gnGSC and romp around from the tundra to the islands.

If we had a Like button I would very much LIKE this post.

CTF,
That is for sure. Bob Mitchell got the 350-grain TSX over 2700 fps in his 25"-barreled CZ .458 Win. Mag.
I stopped at 2627 fps MV in my 24-7/8"-CZ-barreled, Pre-'64 WinCzechster.

That was with 77.0 grains of H4198 and 3.440" COL.

75.0 grains of same gave 2590 fps and 0.33 MOA for 3 shots.
That's a handy load.

A trial of AA-2230 might be interesting with the 350-grain TSX.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Been following this 458 Win love fest for as long as it has been going on and i'm still confused ?

In my world the 458 Win staked its claim on a 500 gr Solid and 510 gr soft with just enough velocity to give a ME of 5000 ft pounds and some give or take, But never never below 5000 ft pounds.... that was a big no no

yes we played down with bullets made for the 45-70 and though they knocked the snot out of the likes of wildbebeest never under consideration for buffalo or bigger.

Then there was hard cast, 400 gr or thereabouts and that I must say did a number on the same but never dangerous stuff. Penetration of a 405 gr hard cast on metal plates is a rule all to itself.

Now for the confusion..... 400 gr @ 2300 fps dont make 5000 ftpounds so why the big hoopla ?

Were we/ us / they wrong all those years ago or is 400 gr the new 500 gr ?

I will buy that a 400 gr FN mono is a different animal than a old RN 500 gr FMJ but keeping all equal ie comparing apples to apples what does 400 gr RN @ 2300 gr bring that a 500 gr RN @ 2150 does not or if you chose a FN a 400 gr FN vs a 500 gr FN ?

im seeing a whole lot of back slapping but im not convinced yet not without evidence beyond paper numbers.

ALF, you are with a good question indeed, so let me ask another one.

Why do we need the magic "5000" number? Is it something carved out in stone for some obscure reason?

My point being quite simple. We all know what ME is and why it's needed, but at the same time, we all know ME is not a good indicator of lethality, not even close.

So, why then bother with ME alone? I don't have enough "cape" experience to argue about, but certainly enough on general hunting, mostly Long Range, and I can attest that ME is the least of my concerns.

Bullet construction along with bullet placement is and was my guide for years and so far, never failed me as a simple recipe for success.

A .458/400-gr X-bullet at about 2300 fps was said, summarily, to penetrate better and produce better wound channel than any 500-gr soft, according to Finn.
It killed big brown bear as well or better than any other bullet Phil has tried, I surmise.

So will a 400-grain HV at 2500 fps also work and shoot a little flatter to boot?
Is 5550 ft-lbs not more than sufficient?
Captain obvious here:


Rip ...

A big brother .458 Win. Mag. Ruger M77 Mk II is planned.
Estimated birth weight is 8 pounds.

Rip ...

5000 fpe is water under the bridge , Alf.
A holdover from the heady days of cordite and round nose bullets, cup&core or FMJ.
The .458 Win. Mag. is capable of +6000 fpe if you load it properly for whaling.
In a Ruger Mark II you load that size harpoon one shot at a time.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Gustavo:

Point well taken but those were the "rules" ! There was a lot of stuff that made no sense and yet those who made up the rules did so based on caliber and muzzle energy !

As long as I can remember the 5000 ft pound energy thing on the 458 was the issue !
There was no one but no one that would have dreamt to put a 400 gr 458 forth as a valid option for consideration and yet historically there were far more that fell before far less.... the 450-577 in BP with patched bullets for one.

ALF, you nailed it, the rules! LOL

All good points, hopefully we can now move forward with better guidelines.

I think the 5 K ft lb rule came from the original batch of 450 NE rifles. They worked great , so it became the rule. At least that's what I think , doesn't really carry much merit. Then the 425 Westly Richards produced it and the 416 Rigby did also. They worked. So it continued.
But then there's the 450/400 and the 404 and the 375.
They're 4k . Never heard of them working better than the more powerful rounds so .

With the bullets that produce the penetration and wound channels that are available today. Maybe the 5k rule is not as valid. I will probably never need the penetration of a modern hunting solid. But I sure do like how the mono metal expanding bullets work.
Then there's the shootability . the lighter bullets , producing the same kinetic energy produce less recoil. Which makes the rifles easier to shoot well.

Alf, there you go again, making up stuff to prop up a strawman-argument, and totally neglecting the very important aspect of throat.
New and improved powders too. The latest AA-2230 has only been with us since 2016.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:
Smoke and mirrors old man, smoke and mirrors !
You cannot fuck with physics ! It will not allow it !

I never buggered physics.
I was reading physics texts when I was 10 years old. I had a 99th percentile MEDCAT Science score. You just need some actual experience with loading and shooting the .458 Winchester Magnum of today,
not the one of 40 years ago.

You steal from Peter to pay for Paul !

All you have is a 63mm plus or minus case no more no less.
2.500" maximum case length is 63.5mmm, there I did the math for you.

That is what it always was that it what it always will be and to boot it will allow you a maximum allowable safe pressure ceiling !

Remember the throat, Alf. In many specific load comparisons, the .458 Winchester Magnum's long-leade-only throat gives a 5K to 10K pressure let-off
while producing same velocities as the .458 Lott does with its tight, 0.200"-long parallel-sided free-bore throat.

If you load to caliber ( which was COAL for this cartridge ) you essentially have 63mm minus 11.63mm powder column.

But now for the David Copperfield maneuver !

You steal by loading to say 1/4 caliber only !

BS from ALF.
Consider the 1.440"-long 400-grain HV.
If COL is 3.450" (my now favored COL for this bullet) and brass case is 2.495" long,
precisely trimmed,
then a 0.485" length of bullet is seated below the case mouth.
That is more than a caliber's length of bullet, for a .458"-inch diameter bullet.
Admittedly, some of that is short and blunt boat tail,
but two drive-bands are inside the case, and the bullet sits on a full case of drop-tubed powder, with minimal (if any) compression of the AA-2230, and the bullet is crimped, locked securely in place. No way is it going deeper into case.

So you have 63mm minus 2.9mm...... ie your bullet is hanging by 3mm plus or minus case grip only

Alf:

Smoke and mirrors because what you have created is the powder column of a Lott which is loaded to full caliber length give or take.

There is no magic in this! It is what it is !

Alf, I did not expect you to believe in "magic."
Can you not understand figures of speech, exaggeration as humor, sarcasm, hyperbole, and other subtle attempts at humor such as irony?



Once you have reached maximum powder charge for the case volume and your chosen bullet and you have reached maximum efficiency for your chosen powder there is nothing more you can do bar alter the force impetus of the powder, ie you can go from single base to double base no more.
Yes you can go light as you have done, again mo magic !

Yep, "mo magic."

There will be many who will frown on a bullet purchase of less than a full caliber ! Especially on cartridges that are subject to recoil effects
Yep, fret not Alf, that seated 0.485" length of the HV works fine in the 3.450" COL load.
As for the 3.550" COL, just consider that a stunt, or "magic." That was a joke.

400-grainer at 2500 fps = 5550 ft-lbs KE.
It crowds the magazine box less and feeds better than a .458/.416 Ruger.
The H&H belt is not a feeding impediment.
A thicker case diameter near the front of the magazine box is a feeding impediment: Less taper.

Rip ...