quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
RIP has left the 458 Win to languish in the backwaters

Nope, just waiting for the GSC .458/400-grain HV.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Nope, just waiting for the GSC .458/400-grain HV.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Nope, just waiting for the GSC .458/400-grain HV.

Rip ...

Some magic sauce that cannot be done with a Barnes TSX? Really hard to swallow.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Well, actually, yes.
Barnes quit making the 400-grain X-bullet, and I do not think they ever made it as a TSX with multiple grooves.

The GSC with true driving bands and small bearing surface might allow compounding of magic:

.458 Win.Mag. LongCOL magic
plus
GSC HV magic: Look out!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

I would never trade a .458 Win.Mag. "Jungle Carbine" for a .416 Ruger "Alder Queen" unless I become infirm of body, unsound of mind, or both.
Nothing new to post until I get some GSC HV 400-grainers.
The .458 Win.Mag. is the undisputed "Champ."
Politically incorrect as this fact may be,
it is the truth.
Not every carttridge can be THE WINNER.
There can be only one like the .458 WINNER Magnum.

Rip ...

quote:

I would never trade a .458 Win.Mag. "Jungle Carbine" for a .416 Ruger "Alder Queen" unless I become infirm of body, unsound of mind, or both.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Yes, when I decide to step down from a 500 Nyati (we've nicknamed it the Kichaa "crazy") it will be for easier recoil and a 416 Ruger. It's hard to guesstimate how many years from now.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Yes, when I decide to step down from a 500 Nyati (we've nicknamed it the Kichaa "crazy") it will be for easier recoil and a 416 Ruger. It's hard to guesstimate how many years from now.

Bear with me, I know it's not the thread goal to compare the almighty .458WM to any other cartridge, but I'm curious.

What is the .416R can do that cannot be over accomplished with the .458WM?

Like I said before, I considered it at the time, but ballistically speaking there is nothing special about it. And while popularity may be growing, I sincerely doubt it can even reach or scratch the universality of the proven stomper.

Both Ruger offerings still suffer, after so many years of being on the market, lack of factory rifles, lack of brass, lack of factory ammo, etc.

The .375 and .416 calibers don't have nothing special when it comes to hunt DG.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

I would never trade a .458 Win.Mag. "Jungle Carbine" for a .416 Ruger "Alder Queen" unless I become infirm of body, unsound of mind, or both.
Nothing new to post until I get some GSC HV 400-grainers.
The .458 Win.Mag. is the undisputed "Champ."
Politically incorrect as this fact may be,
it is the truth.
Not every carttridge can be THE WINNER.
There can be only one like the .458 WINNER Magnum.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

What can the 416 Ruger do better than the 458? It can provide an easier recoiling round for most hunting situations while still having the diameter and authority for buffalo as needed. If my average game animal was an impala or hartebeest, wildebeest or eland, then the 416 loaded with either a 330GSC or a 245GSC would be excellent. And the 416 typically comes in standard (medium) length actions.

As for availability of components and rifles, the 375 Ruger continues to expand.
You are correct about the 416 Ruger, it appears to have peaked. That probably reflects a diminishing need for an African-based rifle, while the 375 continues to grow in popularity in NA and Alaska, SAfr too. However, I am pretty good at cannibalizing ammo should the need ever arise and the 416Rem can be disassembled and used almost as is (dropping one grain of powder). I'm not worried about components this generation. I think that I will wait a few years for purchasing a 416 Ruger. If it has truly peaked, then there should be some great deals in about five years as clearance 416s and safe queens are offered for sale. Maybe Ruger will do a special run with a laminate stock and 20" stainless barrel.

quote:

Havig said that, if you do some numbers, recoil is about the same, since both cartridges can launch the same bullet weight at about the same velocity, so if fired from similar rifles, recoil shouldn't be discernible among them to the point of making one "gentler" than the other.

quote:

I can't imagine what in hell this old combo wouldn't handle, that includes any plains game animal out to 250 long yards using the scope which is set for the Partitions to hit 3 inches high at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

But in a 416 I wouldn't choose a 400-grain bullet. The bread-and-butter load would be a 330 GSC. Hence flatter, easier carry, easier recoil. As O'Connor used to say, one should compare bullets of similar SD as the starting point.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

With due respect ! BULLSHIT !

If you deny SD you deny the whole premise of how projectiles fly and interact with their surroundings whilst in motion.

SD is not some mathematical whim it is a direct result of the application of Newtonian laws of motion.

The problem is that everyone erroneously misrepresent SD for what it really is.

SD is central to the whole ballistics event it is part of what defines our ballistics system in all 3 phases ! ie internal, intermediate and terminal.

As it derives directly from Newtonian laws of motion is is only proper that its definition has to be seen as part of motion ie the ratio of a projectiles mass to cross sectional area in direction of motion

So in reality at any given point of observation / reference in the projectiles trajectory from start of motion to end of motion in target given as the mass at that point of reference to the presenting surface of the projectile at that point of reference. !


SD defines from the projectile side of the two way street what resistance it is going to meet when in motion ! it is defined by mass ( ie that part that defines inertia to change in motion) and secondly by what surface area it presents itself to the world it meets on its path in motion ie drag.

For this very reason why BC is defined as ( the dummied down version ) the ratio of SD to form factor ie BC = SD/i

This derivation forms the basis the methodology of our ballistics system.

What it is not is the SD that is calculated and printed on the bullet data sheet.

SD is dynamic !

The bullet is in motion, its interaction with the air it finds itself in or the target it finds itself in is dynamic. It may loose mass, it may deform or fragment and moreover its presenting surface whilst in air changes as it moves downrange !

quote:

About the "flatter" trajectory let's run some numbers, using Barnes' BC data for both TSX bullets the .416 and .458 of 350gr

.416 BC 0.345
.458 BC 0.278

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

About the "flatter" trajectory let's run some numbers, using Barnes' BC data for both TSX bullets the .416 and .458 of 350gr

.416 BC 0.345
.458 BC 0.278

Well, I don't consider the .458" 350gn TSX a buffalo bullet. It is not a 'from all practical angles bullet". For that, I would want at least a 400 grain bullet in .458", like the 400gn GSC. That bullet should be compared to the 330gn GSC in .416". If you sight-in 2" high at 100 yards there will be several inches difference at 300 yards.

.458" 400GSC .272SD (.372BC) 2400fps 5115ft# 2.1" high/100 yards, -13.7" at 300 yards. 10.7" wind drift in 10MPH crosswind.
.416" 330GSC .272SD (.368BC) 2600fps 4953ft#, 2.1" high/100 yards, -10.2" at 300 yards. 9.2" wind drift in 10MPH crosswind.
Yes, I'll take that extra 3.5" at 300 yards and with better wind resistance. A ten-inch drop is much easier to hunt with than a 13.5-14" drop. The 416 can still be pushed 100fps in a 3.4" magazine, too, acc to GSC. That faster load would only drop -8.8" at 300 yards with a 2.0" sight-in.

If you really want a 350gn .458" for plains game (and it is not recommended for buffalo), then I will load the next GSC bullet down, the .416" 245 grain. It still has a .307BC, probably better than the 350gn .458 TSX and its .278 BC. (GSC warns that BC comparisons are approximate because of the different ways in which manufacturers determine them.)

More importantly, the 416 load only drops -6.4" at 300 yards when sighted-in 2.0" high at 100 and 2975fps muzzle velocity. (Not a max load but a reasonable expectation for a hunting load.) I can hunt really easily with a -6.4" drop. And the recoil is down in the 338-340 range.

Back to the 350gn TSX .458". It's .278 BC is poor and at 2550 fps (5050ft#, which is quite a bit for the smaller case) it drops -12.5" when sighted-in 2.1" high at 100 yards. That is a -6" extra drop below the 416. No thank you.

But you are free to walk the forest with such a 458 just like I am free to roam with a 416.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

"If you own a .458 WM rifle though, rest assured you already have one of the best elephant calibers ever designed".
.

quote:

Second, if the Barnes 350gr TSX is not good enough for Buffalo, why the .416 350gr is?

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Because of SD? I don't buy that argument. Sorry. The SD of the .416 350gr is only 21% larger which won't make any practical difference in the real world.

quote:

Like we all know, bullet placement will define the deal, not SD

On the other hand, if we are going to compare ballistics performance side-by-side, then we must use the SAME bullet weight from the SAME brand in order to ensure same design and construction. In such a way, we can compare apples to apples.

Meaning your comparison cannot be taken as a valid one, unfortunately. On the other hand, while the GSC bullets are very good hunting pills, I'd take their BC numbers with outmost care. Who knows how they were determined? This alone is the Holy Grail of true Long Range shooting.

Do you really think a mere 6" drop will make one cartridge better than the other? C'mon...let's get real here. Like I said before, PBR difference is ONLY 10 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Over the holiday season I was re-reading some of the old books I keep at our cabin in Central, Alaska and found a quote in Richard Harland's book NDLOUVU- The Art on Hunting the African Elephant.
I think Richard has killed many times more elephants than Karamojo Bell and John Taylor combined and on page 363, when discussing the recoil and performance of rounds like the 458 Lott, Watts and the 460 G&A and Weatherby, he stated that
"If you own a .458 WM rifle though, rest assured you already have one of the best elephant calibers ever designed".

I know I feel the same way about it for stopping our biggest bears.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Second, if the Barnes 350gr TSX is not good enough for Buffalo, why the .416 350gr is?

Since both bullets will hold their weight, the thiner bullet (say .8" expansion vs. .9" expansion) will penetrate farther, on average.

quote:

Because of SD? I don't buy that argument. Sorry. The SD of the .416 350gr is only 21% larger which won't make any practical difference in the real world.

Actually, that 21% difference will retard penetration in the .458" to the point where I would not trust it from any angle.

quote:

Like we all know, bullet placement will define the deal, not SD

On the other hand, if we are going to compare ballistics performance side-by-side, then we must use the SAME bullet weight from the SAME brand in order to ensure same design and construction. In such a way, we can compare apples to apples.

Meaning your comparison cannot be taken as a valid one, unfortunately. On the other hand, while the GSC bullets are very good hunting pills, I'd take their BC numbers with outmost care. Who knows how they were determined? This alone is the Holy Grail of true Long Range shooting.

Do you really think a mere 6" drop will make one cartridge better than the other? C'mon...let's get real here. Like I said before, PBR difference is ONLY 10 yards.

Suit yourself. But for me, -6" at 300 yards is a very big difference. And as mentioned previously, that 10 yard PBR was invalid calculation or comparison. A -6" drop calculates to a whole lot more than 10PBR.

quote:

10) I ran my previous example again, and the drop difference at 300 yards is 2.3 inches...far from your 6 inches, isn't it? So, I wonder what numbers are you comparing? Like I said before...apples to apples, but if you are going to select a different bullet weight with different designs and construction, different MV, etc it's obvious you can make your numbers suit you in any possible way. That is the wrong way to do this and unfair, to say the least.

For the record, I used a 2" sight height and a 100 yard zero, under ICAO STD conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Your first comparison for PBR was 350gn.416" vs 350gn .458. That was and remains invalid.
The 350gn .458" will not penetrate as far as a 350gn.416 unless you run the .458" faster than the .416, which is not going to happen at same pressures given the Ruger's 10-grain capacity advantage over the 458 diameter advantage. For DG apples to apples you need to compare the 330gn .416 vs the 400gn .458".

Now you may notice that the larger capacity 416Ruger will run the 330 gn bullet quite a bit faster than the 458 will run the 400gn and it will do it will less recoil. GSC recommends 2700fps for the 330gn and 2475fps for the 458.

So when loaded with a light DG bullet, the 416R drops -8.8" at 300 yards [330gn], a good and respectable plains-game load, while the 458WM drops -12.2. That is 3.4" and most hunters consider that a significant difference out at 300yards, specifically because things are not 'bench-rest' and a person may need to 'eye-ball' the distance rather than laser it. Yes 3.4" is significant.

Having said all of that, I agree with you that the 458 is the better DG rifle and load. Diameter counts. Diameter transfers more wounding-energy, faster.

But the 458 is not the better plains game rifle, nor equal to the 416R. Nor is it within 10 yards of the Ruger for PBR.

I tend to use a 2.1" vital-zone radius because I hate to shoot over a plains game animal. That is typically 1.9"-2.1" sight-in at 100 yards, depending on muzzle velocities.

On the other hand, a 6" vital-radius is going to wound a few animals out at 150 yards near the max arc because a person has to add wobble, wind, and time pressure. (I've hunted with 4" sight-ins, 300-yard zeros, aiming low at most animals. I've switched to 2.1" max arc and find it psychologically much easier and satisfying.) For the record, the 458 and a 6" radius has a PBR of 321 yards, while the Ruger is 348yards, same atmosphere/elev. Yes, it is only 27 yards. At realistic hunting sight-ins it will even be less difference.

Using the loads above, the 458WM sighted-in at 2.1" max arc (usually around 100 yards for slower loads), has a point blank range of 214 yards. The Ruger is 232. Only 18 yards, but I'll take those. The critical distance for hunting is 200-300 yards where distance estimation starts to become significant and mistakes are easy to make.

As for SD, the article by Gerard is not the last word although he does raise some points that diminish its importance in some circumstances. An unspoken item is that Gerard's experience seems to rely on 'blowing the petals' in some circumstances, so that the cylinder ends up penetrating really well. Otherwise, increased velocity for lighter bullets cannot maintain or increase momentum in a reciprocal fashion. Velocity is squared with energy while it is not squared with momentum.

Nevertheless, for plains-game only, the 416 can use the GSC 245 grain bullet, while the .458 can load a 315gn GSC. I had forgotten about the 315gn. The -6" difference came from a heavier bullet. Here is a comparison, both loads fairly hot:

458WMg 315gn 2725fps 5193ME 2.1", at 300 yards -8.8" PBR 232yard.
416Rug 245gn 3100fps 5227ME 2.1", at 300 yards -5.3" PBR 260yard.

You know that 315gn GSC bullet, .458", looks pretty nice, definitely huntable for plains game!
So primarily for PG the 458WM is good, the 416 better, but for DG the 416 is good plus, while the 458 is even better. (Why the 'plus', because the 416 outclasses the 375.)

Maybe we should discuss the 270 vs 30-06? (Joke)

For a one-bullet load I still lean to the 330gn (-8.8"@300) over the 400gn (-12.2@300). I guess I like easier hartebeest shots. But if someone gives me a really great deal on a 458, I'm ready to change. (Afterall, if I've been shooting 6000-6800ft# loads, 5300ft# ought to feel great.)

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

10) I ran my previous example again, and the drop difference at 300 yards is 2.3 inches...far from your 6 inches, isn't it? So, I wonder what numbers are you comparing? Like I said before...apples to apples, but if you are going to select a different bullet weight with different designs and construction, different MV, etc it's obvious you can make your numbers suit you in any possible way. That is the wrong way to do this and unfair, to say the least.

For the record, I used a 2" sight height and a 100 yard zero, under ICAO STD conditions.

Your first comparison for PBR was 350gn.416" vs 350gn .458. That was and remains invalid.
The 350gn .458" will not penetrate as far as a 350gn.416 unless you run the .458" faster than the .416, which is not going to happen at same pressures given the Ruger's 10-grain capacity advantage over the 458 diameter advantage. For DG apples to apples you need to compare the 330gn .416 vs the 400gn .458".

Now you may notice that the larger capacity 416Ruger will run the 330 gn bullet quite a bit faster than the 458 will run the 400gn and it will do it will less recoil. GSC recommends 2700fps for the 330gn and 2475fps for the 458.

So when loaded with a light DG bullet, the 416R drops -8.8" at 300 yards [330gn], a good and respectable plains-game load, while the 458WM drops -12.2. That is 3.4" and most hunters consider that a significant difference out at 300yards, specifically because things are not 'bench-rest' and a person may need to 'eye-ball' the distance rather than laser it. Yes 3.4" is significant.

Having said all of that, I agree with you that the 458 is the better DG rifle and load. Diameter counts. Diameter transfers more wounding-energy, faster.

But the 458 is not the better plains game rifle, nor equal to the 416R. Nor is it within 10 yards of the Ruger for PBR.

I tend to use a 2.1" vital-zone radius because I hate to shoot over a plains game animal. That is typically 1.9"-2.1" sight-in at 100 yards, depending on muzzle velocities.

On the other hand, a 6" vital-radius is going to wound a few animals out at 150 yards near the max arc because a person has to add wobble, wind, and time pressure. (I've hunted with 4" sight-ins, 300-yard zeros, aiming low at most animals. I've switched to 2.1" max arc and find it psychologically much easier and satisfying.) For the record, the 458 and a 6" radius has a PBR of 321 yards, while the Ruger is 348yards, same atmosphere/elev. Yes, it is only 27 yards. At realistic hunting sight-ins it will even be less difference.

Using the loads above, the 458WM sighted-in at 2.1" max arc (usually around 100 yards for slower loads), has a point blank range of 214 yards. The Ruger is 232. Only 18 yards, but I'll take those. The critical distance for hunting is 200-300 yards where distance estimation starts to become significant and mistakes are easy to make.

As for SD, the article by Gerard is not the last word although he does raise some points that diminish its importance in some circumstances. An unspoken item is that Gerard's experience seems to rely on 'blowing the petals' in some circumstances, so that the cylinder ends up penetrating really well. Otherwise, increased velocity for lighter bullets cannot maintain or increase momentum in a reciprocal fashion. Velocity is squared with energy while it is not squared with momentum.

Nevertheless, for plains-game only, the 416 can use the GSC 245 grain bullet, while the .458 can load a 315gn GSC. I had forgotten about the 315gn. The -6" difference came from a heavier bullet. Here is a comparison, both loads fairly hot:

458WMg 315gn 2725fps 5193ME 2.1", at 300 yards -8.8" PBR 232yard.
416Rug 245gn 3100fps 5227ME 2.1", at 300 yards -5.3" PBR 260yard.

You know that 315gn GSC bullet, .458", looks pretty nice, definitely huntable for plains game!
So primarily for PG the 458WM is good, the 416 better, but for DG the 416 is good plus, while the 458 is even better. (Why the 'plus', because the 416 outclasses the 375.)

Maybe we should discuss the 270 vs 30-06? (Joke)

For a one-bullet load I still lean to the 330gn (-8.8"@300) over the 400gn (-12.2@300). I guess I like easier hartebeest shots. But if someone gives me a really great deal on a 458, I'm ready to change. (Afterall, if I've been shooting 6000-6800ft# loads, 5300ft# ought to feel great.)

quote:

Why? because you keep playing the same tune all over again. Indeed, your comparison is apple-to-oranges.

So far, it's clear enough you are not goint to realize that comparing different bullet weights is the wrong way to go, when it comes to analyze balistics performance.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I am old and simple and for the game that actually requires a 458 I have always found my trajectory "table" for the 500 gr RN works well
Hold Dead-on at 100
1 foot high at 200
3 foot at 300
And double the drop each 100 yards past that

It's not technically perfect but under field conditions on large animals with a 2 1/2 X scope it is easy to remember and work!
I have made first round hits on wounded game out past 400 yards

quote:

Originally posted by KY Nimrod:
There are people who can argue ballistics with the best the MIT doctorate in applied physics program has to offer and there are those who can shoot.

In all my career as high power competitor I never once saw anyone argue a winning score onto a 1,000 yard target. In point of fact I've seen many many competitors outshoot people who arguably had the best BC's and SD's behind their weighed powder charges, turned necks, and highly tuned rifles...

At the end of the day you can hold the ten ring, know how to dope wind, make the corrections and know your come ups or you don't/can't. And I could almost guarantee you the guys who were always in search of the perfect load, the best BC/SD, or the most velocity were never the guys shooting in master class.

Arguing which .458 or .416 bullet is better at 400 yards is like arguing how many 18 year beauty queens you will sleep with next weekend...in your dreams

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Why bother with a 500 grain bullet? A 400 grain flat nose solid 458 bullet of .272 SD should be good for almost anything you want with a 458 Win Mag, right? How many pachyderm you all shoot? Even then, I would not want a 500 grain soft bullet.

Sincerely,
Jackelopestick

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Here is the generic .458/500-grain bullet at generic conditions for your choice of sight-ins, consider it generic for scope sighted or iron sighted rifles,
as it is for 1.5" sight height,
exactly average for the extremes between 1" and 2" sight heights:

0.00" at 100 yards, preferred by Phil Shoemaker:



+2.00" at 100 yards, preferred by Finn Aagaard:



+3.00" at 100 yards, preferred by Rip, it never goes higher than 3.00", and that is absolutely no more than "a few inches":



Note that +3.00" is the maximum ordinate at 99.61 yards and, for all practical purposes,
the .458 Win.Mag shoots flat as a laser beam for 0.39 yards.
That is 14.04 inches.


The maximum point-blank-ranges (PBR) above, are based on a 12"-diameter vital zone.
IIRC, Gustavo suggested that,
and it sure makes the PBRs for the .458 Win.Mag. impressive.
Even a Jungle carbine can do 2150 fps with a 500-grainer.

Rip ...