quote:

416Tanzan,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell, even though you resist singing along with the .458 WIN tune, which I just can't get out of my head.

Hey, the 458 is a great calibre. To what may this continuing saga of 458 and 416 be compared?

It is something like the 30-06 debate with the 270 and OConnor. Except that there is no writer who has taken the 416 to heart like OConnor documented the 270. Anyway, a person who prefers a 270 to a 30-06 for deer may be predicted to prefer a 338WM to a 375 for elk, and, perhaps a 416 to a 458 for all-around Africa. I think that OConnor himself would probably have taken the side of the 416 Ruger in this generation since he thought quite highly of the 416 Rigby in the past. Meanwhile, I've still got my 500 AccRel.

I'de have wanted to slap the guy . He prolly has a financial stake in some other 40 and over cart.

If you want the best on "whatever" don't go to SHOOTING TIMES! It's not "timeless"!

So, Allan Jones is still around, is he... I had a phone conversation with him at SPEER about twenty years ago! He was very polite and somewhat knowledgeable, at "the time", I thought, but maybe he got stuck "in time" after leaving SPEER?

I read another recent article on the .458 somewhere on the NET, and it too was stuck in time.

I would have thought by now that "the MISSION bell" would be ringing across America, Africa and Australia, the AAAs of the shooting world.

But the old saying is perhaps true enough when truth is at issue: "A lie circles the globe while truth is getting into its running shoes" -- or something like that!

Haven't tried 84 grains A1680 behind the 300 TSX yet, as the range was closed yesterday, but expecting about 2890 fps. At 83 grs and 2856 fps there was no case expansion.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

416Tanzan,
I like the .30-06 more than the .270 WCF, that must be it.
When it comes to the .458 WIN versus the .458 Lott,
it is more like the .300 Win.Mag. versus the .300 H&H,
and I like the .300 Win.Mag. more.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I'de have wanted to slap the guy . He prolly has a financial stake in some other 40 and over cart.

CTF takes a break from home building now and then.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
... Haven't tried 84 grains A1680 behind the 300 TSX yet, as the range was closed yesterday, but expecting about 2890 fps. At 83 grs and 2856 fps there was no case expansion.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
If you do that I will have to try it in the 22" .45-100 SWT or maybe the braked 25" .458 WIN.
A powder that burns that fast will not lose much velocity in a shorter barrel, surely.
It has been unseasonably hot and raining most days here.
I am sitting on some loads as planned for both Bobbarrella and Bobbee.
Burning the midnight oil reading Hoyem Volume 4 that I got in the mail yesterday.
The .458 WIN heritage is expanding more into Americana with a more Winchester twist.

Dr. Maynard had an experimental ".46 Rimless" with .460-caliber bullet in 1846 or 1856 (Hoyem gives both dates, one must be a typo),
fired by his tape-primer system, through a hole in the bottom of the case,
for his breechloader that was "almost a centerfire."

April 10, 1866: Sylvester H. Roper got a patent for the ".40-2-7/16-inch Roper" with a steel cartridge case center-fire primed with a percussion cap pressed into it,
and belted like the H&H case of the next century.

Winchester got a patent January 1, 1867 for a ".46 O. F. Winchester" with a unique centerfire primer in a two-piece copper case. Bullet was .468-caliber.
Oliver put his initials on this one?

1884: Winchester Experiment for U.S. Government was the .45-200-500 with a fat, boxer-primed, 3.15" long, bottle-necked (very short necked), rimmed case. Rim diameter .778", head diameter .677", COL 3.80".
It had a .458-caliber bullet of 500 grains propelled by 200 grains of BP!
The .460 Weatherby of the 19th century!

1912: The .46 W.C.F. had a .458-caliber bullet and a bottle-necked case of 2.406" length, .536" head diameter, .632" rim diameter.
Never marketed.

The .458 WIN is a GREAT AMERICAN.
Happy Fourth of July.

Rip ...

In Barnes #4, A1680 and H4198 are about identical in charge and results for the .45-70, except that 1680 is such a fine-grain ball powder that it only displaces about 75 - 80 % space in the case as H4198.

H4198 is a tad too slow for max results when employed for the 300 TSX in the .458 Win. So, 82 grs of H4198 is a compressed load when either the 350 TSX or 300 TSX are in use.

IF the same load (82 grns) of H4198 is safe for the 350, then the 300 should be safe with a couple more grains -- except, of course, case capacity won't allow it! But, one could use up to 85 grns A1680 behind the 300 without compression -- IF PSI permitted it! 83 gave no expansion to the case head, so I've loaded three at 84 for testing purposes.

The Canadian Open is on this weekend at our range for shotgunners. It's a big deal, so the range is getting prepared for literally hundreds of shooters, and so it was closed for the rifle range as well. I should be able to shoot again next Tuesday.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Ditto the .458 WIN, of course. Use a sissy pad or muzzle brake at the bench.
Recoil will not be noticed in the field if the rifle fits the shooter and has a decent recoil pad.
I am the elderly poster boy for this.
The original Pre-64 M70 African with 25" barrel was 8.5 pounds.
And it did more for African Hunting than Peter Hathaway Capstick.
For Africa, the .458 WIN still has more to offer than any other rifle,
and it ain't just because it is the most bang for the buck,
though that is another of its advantages.

Rip ...

Mine weighs at 8 lbs with a 20" barrel...you sure the African was 8.5?

.458Win is King of Cool

Gustavo,

Thanks for the correction, "The Watcher" should speak more often, for THE MISSION.

My boo-boo.
It was the Post-'63, 22"-barreled, pushfeed M70 African like Dirty Harry used that was 8.5 pounds:



The Pre-'64, 25"-barreled M70 African weighed 9.25 pounds:




I could say I made that mix-up just to flush you out of lurking.
Truth is, it was just my brain farting.

I have a notion that Bob's AA-1680 loads will be excellent in short-barreled rifles
like your 8.0-pound, 20"-barreled .458 WIN bolt-action, Ruger Mk II Jungle Carbine,
and in my 7.25-pound, 22"-barreled .45-100 SWT single-shot, Ruger No.1.
Makes me want to see what QuickLOAD says about velocity loss from 25" to 20" barrel with such a fast powder.
Negligible?

Rip ...

Obi-Wan Bob,

Thank you for guidance in the ways of The Force-458.
AA-1680 for 300-grainers is a master stroke of the enlightenment saber.


Rip ...

QuickLOAD says there is no free lunch.
Even with a powder as fast as AA-1680, and with such a light bullet as 300-grainer, chopping barrel from 25" to 20" loses 100 fps in a .458 WIN.
If that means you are going from 2800 fps to 2700 fps with a 300-grain bullet, at reasonable pressures, thanks to the throat,
yep, that is a pretty neglible loss for the handiness of a short rifle.

So, I will forget the too-bulky H4198 for now.
By ROT I know what it will do in my .45-100 SWT.
I will try AA-1680, soon, with a foam wad filler, starting at 85% fill with AA-1680 and working up.
in both .458 WIN and .45-100 SWT, ballistic fraternal twins.
No powder compression in the .458 WIN with AA-1680.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

Thanks for the correction, "The Watcher" should speak more often, for THE MISSION.

My boo-boo.
It was the Post-'63, 22"-barreled, pushfeed M70 African like Dirty Harry used that was 8.5 pounds.



The Pre-'64, 25"-barreled M70 African weighed 9.25 pounds.

I could say I made that mix-up just to flush you out of lurking.
Truth is, it was just my brain farting.

I have a notion that Bob's AA-1680 loads will be excellent in short-barreled rifles
like your 8.0-pound, 20"-barreled .458 WIN bolt-action, Ruger Mk II Jungle Carbine,
and in my 7.25-pound, 22"-barreled .45-100 SWT single-shot, Ruger No.1.
Makes me want to see what QuickLOAD says about velocity loss from 25" to 20" barrel with such a fast powder.
Negligible?

Rip ...

Obi-Wan, Master of the Mission, Keeper of the 458WIN Truth,

I've come to never trust QL predictions for straight-walled cases...not even close.

The velocity loss from 25" to 20" is, according to some authors, around 60/70 fps depending on powder burning rate, bullet weight, etc... neglibile for any creature walking on this planet.

Now, that my broken shoulder is getting better, the Jungle Carbine will aim its eyes on a nice Water Buff!

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
I've come to never trust QL predictions for straight-walled cases...not even close.

Aye, and QL makes no allowance whatsoever for throat differences.
Hence we must load and shoot over a chronograph.
But surely it is useful for some relative comparisons of some basics
like how much of what powder gets burnt in what length of barrel,
+/- 10% on results due to their data for properties of the various powders, versus lot-to-lot variations of our powders.

The velocity loss from 25" to 20" is, according to some authors, around 60/70 fps depending on powder burning rate, bullet weight, etc... neglibile for any creature walking on this planet.

The "lightness" of the 300-grainer would counteract some of the "fastness" of the powder burn.
QL says you do not get a 100% burn of AA-1680 with 300-grainer in a 25" .458 WIN until you get up to about 62,500 psi, like .458 Lott pressure MAP.
For a 20" .458 WIN it takes over 70,000 psi to get a 100% burn before bullet exits the 20" barrel.
Yes, always take QL with a grain of saltpeter, especially with the .458 WIN.
Undeniable: For the minimal velocity loss in a short barrel, use a heavy bullet and as fast a powder burn rate as possible within pressure limits.
But 2700 fps from a 20" barrel with a .458/300-grain bullet would be quite the varmint load.
Unknown until test-fired, not just 'puter simulated.


Now, that my broken shoulder is getting better, the Jungle Carbine will aim its eyes on a nice Water Buff!

Gustavo,
What happened to the shoulder?
Your support of THE MISSION is appreciated.

Rip ...

It seems the US Gov started experimenting with .456-cal and .457-cal bullets (485-grain weight), prior to 1869 by necking down the .50-70 Gov. case of 1866 origin,
stretching it to 2.00" in case length with up to 75 grains of BP charge.

What came after that was far more interesting.
In Hoyem, Volume 2, I found that first-ever .458 Winchester Magnum of 1884.
It used a .458/500-grain bullet.
(cont.)

Rip ...

George A. Hoyem 's THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION is a 4-volume opus magnum.
Below is an excerpt from VOLUME TWO for book review purposes.
Book review: As outstanding in the field as it gets.

Rip ...

The third cartridge on page 58 is the First-Ever .458 Winchester Magnum of 1884, truly an All-American:



Occasional typo: "Martin" instead of "Martini."

Winchester Experimental of 1884 had a .458-caliber, 500-grain, lead bullet. Sort of looks like an RN FMJ bullet in picture above, but no,
a grease-grooved "Money" bullet for "Sharpshooters."
See specs from table in Hoyem Volume 2, page 267:




In the works since 1884, the .458 Winchester Magnum was finally perfected and released upon the world in 1956.
Still the greatest new cartridge of my lifetime.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
I've come to never trust QL predictions for straight-walled cases...not even close.

Aye, and QL makes no allowance whatsoever for throat differences.
Hence we must load and shoot over a chronograph.
But surely it is useful for some relative comparisons of some basics
like how much of what powder gets burnt in what length of barrel,
+/- 10% on results due to their data for properties of the various powders, versus lot-to-lot variations of our powders.

The velocity loss from 25" to 20" is, according to some authors, around 60/70 fps depending on powder burning rate, bullet weight, etc... neglibile for any creature walking on this planet.

The "lightness" of the 300-grainer would counteract some of the "fastness" of the powder burn.
QL says you do not get a 100% burn of AA-1680 with 300-grainer in a 25" .458 WIN until you get up to about 62,500 psi, like .458 Lott pressure MAP.
For a 20" .458 WIN it takes over 70,000 psi to get a 100% burn before bullet exits the 20" barrel.
Yes, always take QL with a grain of saltpeter, especially with the .458 WIN.
Undeniable: For the minimal velocity loss in a short barrel, use a heavy bullet and as fast a powder burn rate as possible within pressure limits.
But 2700 fps from a 20" barrel with a .458/300-grain bullet would be quite the varmint load.
Unknown until test-fired, not just 'puter simulated.


Now, that my broken shoulder is getting better, the Jungle Carbine will aim its eyes on a nice Water Buff!

Gustavo,
What happened to the shoulder?
Your support of THE MISSION is appreciated.

Rip ...

As usual, great advice from the Keeper!

A year ago, running downhill with my bike, like a champion I fell off at a vicious speed and ...broke my shoulder ...long story short... surgery, titanium plate, 3 months in a sling and therapy until now. The shoulder will never be back at 100% according to the surgeon and several other traumatologists, fact of life. But so far, improvements are being made, and I'm now ready to tame the beast, sorry the King of Cool, the almighty .458WinMag

Gustavo,

OUCH! And it was your shooting shoulder too?
Well, Arnold Schwartzenegger has had his aortic valve replaced 3 times.
Get muscled up before you go to full-power .458.
You might want to play with the light-recoiling 300-grainers first.
Work up gradually to Obi-Wan Bob speed.
May the Force-458 be with you.



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

OUCH! And it was your shooting shoulder too?
Well, Arnold Schwartzenegger has had his aortic valve replaced 3 times.
Get muscled up before you go to full-power .458.
You might want to play with the light-recoiling 300-grainers first.
Work up gradually to Obi-Wan Bob speed.
May the Force-458 be with you.


Rip ...

Obi-Wan Bob, whatever you say I'll do!

No, it was not my right shoulder, thanks God (we serve the same God ) so the problem is more with lifting and holding rifles with the left arm. Don't have 300 grainers at hand, so the Barenes TSX 350gr should do the trick. If Arnold could fight back, I'll too! The Force-458 is always taken good care of us believers

Them there 300 gr TSX or the. 320(?) gr GSC bullet moving at 2700 fps mv. Is a killer of a load !
Andy Runyon didn't have faith in it . But I've killed bears with the 300 gr X at that velocity and it just flat works !
No , it wouldn't be my preferred choice for a full stem to stern shot or vice versa. But it will pulverized the hips of a big bear from the stern and penetrate thru the entire thoracic cavity and into the guts from the bow. No telling how it will work on bovine other than bison.
As the Spruce King was my only centerfold rifle a couple different times. I had opportunity to try stuff with it IRL.



The heat wave and night shift continues.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Occasional typo: "Martin" instead of "Martini."

You should have left that for someone else to note, RIP - it would have added another donation to the Mission. But, in writing this, all's not lost

Gustavo,

Great to hear it was your offside/left shoulder.
Just practicing the crossdraw of your light saber will have you back in shape in no time.


Rip ...

CTF,

Heat wave!
In July 1919 it was 99*F in Fairbanks, 100*F at Fort Yukon, according to sourdough lore.
In July 2019, 90*F in Anchorage is pretty strange at a time when it is usually 70*F.
Almost as bad as Kentucky.
I miss Alaska, spent 5 years there.
Would be moving back up there if I had my druthers.

That is a great looking flap holster for your .480 Ruger SBH. Moose hide?

Rip ...

sambarman338,

Your "Editor" past is showing.
Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

The brilliance of Obi Wan Bob is coming up:
Using AA-1680 with 300-grainers in the .458 WIN.
It is usually thought of as a handgun powder, tops in a .500 S&W with 500-grainers.
It is just a little faster than H4198, and way less bulky.
From the Western Powders Handloading Guide, Edition 1, 2017:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
CTF,

Heat wave!
In July 1919 it was 99*F in Fairbanks, 100*F at Fort Yukon, according to sourdough lore.
In July 2019, 90*F in Anchorage is pretty strange at a time when it is usually 70*F.
Almost as bad as Kentucky.
I miss Alaska, spent 5 years there.
Would be moving back up there if I had my druthers.

That is a great looking flap holster for your .480 Ruger SBH. Moose hide?

Rip ...

It's cowhide, rough out. . I make almost all my holsters and sheaths . Having the abreviated 480 on my hip at night in the brush is comforting. And being a full flap the gun is well protected from about everything. Yet readily available.

Leathercraft is a useful skill, not limited to inmates making wallets.
When I show off a piece I have made, I like to tell the admirer of my work that I learned to do it in prison, and watch their face as I say that.

Getting ready for AA-1680 as recommended by Obi Wan Bob,
I am reviewing my previous use of H4198 with 300-grainers, for THE MISSION:

No fillers or wads!
Chronographing for validation of ROT for the 3-inch shorter-barrel and ~2-grain larger H2O capacity of the .45-100 SWT, versus the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

Sierra must have stopped at 68.0 grains of H4198 because anything over 2500 fps impact velocity is too much for the 300-grain Pro-Hunter, on deer or pig.
I do not expect it will vaporize in mid air if it exceeds 2800 fps.

Rip ...

I wish we had a Like button .
I would LIKE you pursuing mare 300 gr data.

Excellent to save some money shooting Sierra 300-grainers as surrogates for more expensive bullets, to be fine-tuned later.
CEB, Barnes, etc.

Then, cheapest of all, my cast lead bullets in both the .458 WIN and .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throat.
545-grainers at 2200 fps in the former and 1400 fps in the latter, for nostalgia's sake.
I wonder if Blackhorn 209 will work with paper-patched bullets?
Accurate Arms powders might be the only powders needed for the .458 WIN and .45-100 SWT.




AA-1680 Obi Wan Bob loads for the 300-grainers in the .458 WIN, 25" barrel, might be 2800-ish fps.
300-grainers in the .45-100 SWT, 22" barrel, might be 2700-ish fps.
For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

Great to hear it was your offside/left shoulder.
Just practicing the crossdraw of your light saber will have you back in shape in no time.


Rip ...

Obi-Wan Ron,

It's a neat idea, but the crossdraw at sensible speeds is no easy task for the uninitiated!

In the meantime, while the Jungle Carbine is taking a rest, I'm practicing with a new toy purchased a month ago, a Sauer 404 Synchro XTC (.300WinMag) and hopefully she will see mountain action soon

https://www.sauer.de/en/s404-synchro-xtc/

Wow! That is a lightweight .300 WIN!
That will surely be good for getting you ready for the .458 WIN.

Here is Phil Shoemaker's "Jungle Carbine," Old Ugly:



Phil carried the rifle with no sling while hunting.
When he took over cameraman chores he had to sling his rifle while toting the camera to film daughter's and son's hunts.
Phil had to make a sling from canvas scrap and duct tape.
Did not get to show off the flush-fit sling bases on Old Ugly.
Is that like ungilding a lily or what?

Rip ...