quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP it just dawned on me that you have actually proven in 30 pages that all those years ago everyone who had doubts about the 458 were right all along. Wow who would have thunk !

The case capacity is to small so you have to McGiver it by loading long and load with light bullets

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP it just dawned on me that you have actually proven in 30 pages that all those years ago everyone who had doubts about the 458 were right all along. Wow who would have thunk !

The case capacity is to small so you have to McGiver it by loading long and load with light bullets

not bad: "to McGiver it".
That is what I lot of people do, before getting or designing a new caliber.

Hear here!

For example, 40-60 years ago people seemed to play more with 'freeboring'. A person could upgrade a caliber by adding freebore. Recently, Ray Atkinson in several threads seems to like a 338WinMag loaded and throated close to a 340Weatherby. The idea of a long leade rather than a parallel sided freebore might have some merit in preserving accuracy as the freebore/leade lengthens. I don't know if this was explored as much as free-boring back in the day, before my time.

Don't know either, but I assume the experiments with throats like on the .458 Win.Mag. were rare.
It seems that if you gave the .458 Lott a throat like on the .458 Win.Mag.(SAAMI Minimum) but truncated the bottom of that cone by only about 0.2",
you would have a tighter start of the leade, and the leade would allow a THROAT JUMP of only 0.4725" to start of .458"-diameter rifling.
Probably about the same effect as using a .450"-long parallel-sided free-bore (of 0.0008" diameter, less than 0.001")
followed by a 1.5-degree leade.
That sort of free-bore would "Weatherby-ize" the .458 Lott.
That sort of free-bore can be super accurate, pressure-relieving, and velocity-increasing, if enough powder is added.
Just like with a .458 Win.Mag.
If one can get get a .458 Win.Mag. with a throat that is close to the SAAMI-minimum in length (rare it seems),
one would have a great rifle:
Super accurate, pressure-relieving, and velocity-increasing, if enough powder is added, and you load it just a little Longcol.
3.6" box would be excellent.
It would not get red in the face like a .458 Lott does.

We can do some interesting thought experiments down at the 30-cal level.

Think of a lightweight rifle like a Tikka. They do the 308 in their standard-length action. A person could take a Tikka in 308Win and fit it with a 30-06 magazine, adjust the bolt stop, run a throat reamer into the bore, and voila: a 308 long-COL. Great for heavier, longer bullets. It would make the 308 into a real elk gun, etc. etc.

I actually thought about doing something similar once.
My first ever bolt-action rifle was a Ruger M77 30-06. Very accurate despite the fact that the base of the chamber is oval!
Fired brass is a little bulged on one side.
I was going to have it set back and rechambered to .308 WCF and re-throated as needed
to allow use of 200-250-gr. bullets loaded long to fill the 30-06 box.
Sentimental value prevented this "improvement."
It still shoots great. I just use new, unfired brass in it, like factory ammo only for that baby.


One I did do: My 400 Whelen-Petrov-B (3.6", Longcol) arrived similarly to your scheme, from a a 3.4" 270 WCF Winchester M70 Classic donor rifle.
Pop out the spacer in the back of the magazine: Voila! 3.4" box becomes 3.6" box.
Shorten the ejector to function properly with the longer case. Voila! Ejects at the end of the longer slide of the bolt.
I only added 0.122" to the PSFB-throat of the Petrov/G&H version (.188" became .300" of PSFB), and reduced the wasteful neck taper from .004" to .001".
That made the shoulder .003" stronger.

If history were reversed and the 308 preceded the 30-06 I wouldn't be surprised if people would do something like the above. As it is, the 308 gets pretty close to the 30-06 with lighter bullets, 130-150gn, loaded to max pressures, while the factory 30-06 rounds tend to be underloaded and are SAAMI defined to lower pressure, IIRC. If the 308 preceded the 30-06, it would need to wait for a Lott-2nd to come along and design a 30-06. Of course, Winchester and Wetherby could improve on both with a magnum case, not so different from the way in which the 450Rigby and 460 Weatherby improve on both the 458Lott and 458Win by going to a bigger case-head.


So we have a pretty nice parallel in case-size and bolt-face from
308Win >> 30-06 >> 300 WinMag
parallel to
458WinM >> 458Lott >> 450Rigby (throats adjusted as desired or appropriate).

All of this takes us back to the lesson that was learned after the free-boring movement/fad of yesterday-year. Find the rifle platform that a hunter wants or can afford, and choose a caliber that does what one wants. If a person wants more power, get a bigger cartridge.

Or, if you have a .458 Win.Mag., well ...

If a person wants a handy rifle (just like the 308s) then a 458WinMag makes a lot of sense, they come in smaller platforms than the Lotts and Rigbys. If someone is happy with a larger platform, then the .458 Win.Mag. Longcol 3.8", Lott and more-so the Rigby are still the caliber of choice. They do it in their sleep, just like a .458 Win.Mag. Longcol .

So what have I done?
I thought about a little 416Ruger. It's a sweet little platform, whether 23" African or 20" Alaskan, and a decent African caliber, the ballistic equivalent of the factory 416Rigby and 416Remmie. A 416Ruger would be lighter than carrying around a big CZ 416 Rigby or 450 Rigby. But we already hunt with a "super 416 long-COL", a hand loaded 416Rigby, 350TTSX at 2820fps. And I'm still young enough to have considered up-sizing rather than down-sizing. So imagine the 'aha' moment when I heard about putting a 50-caliber at Jeffrey-energies into a little Ruger rifle. Wow. Small-platform relative to big bores, wider bore, and as much thump as I wanted to handle. And I'm doing something quite similar to what RIP seems to want in a 458: shooting lighter monolithic bullets and turning the rifle into an awesome one-gun forest-walker.

Yup, +6000 ft-lbs with 500-grainers from .458 Win.Mag.
Those can be single loaded for insurance shots after the varmint loads do the job.
Or just use that .412 BC of the 500-grain TSX on everything, near and far.
Just calibrate that Scope properly.

Here is what I loaded up for Africa:
(loads are safe in a 22" barrel, Ruger Hawkeye, 500AccRel Nyati [.255" parallel freebore])

50 rounds 360gn tipper-CEB (350 lever-raptor, tipped) with 95 grains[Compressed] H4198 for 2805fps and 0.4" accuracy;
40 rounds 450gn GSC-HV with 100 grains H322 for 2605fps*;
10 rounds 400gn CEB-FN solid with 92 grains H4198 for 2690fps.

(*PS: following up from two years ago when I cracked my stock, the 450gn GSC does 2665fps with 103 grains H322 safely and accurately for 7100ft# energy, but why push it?)

So for the moment, I'm not in the market for a small-platform 458. Let's see how this 500 carries itself while I'm young.

I must be aging prematurely.

This thread has made the 458 into a future contender, but I would be going 'small-platform' and that makes the 416 Ruger, and even the 375 Ruger, to be outstanding options, especially without needing to MacGiver things.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
What is wrong with the 458 the way it is.

Yup, not a thing wrong with it,
but it can do so much more!

Probably 5 years ago we found the match with Accurate 2230 powder that offered results that many looked to achieve since the cartridge was developed. 500 gr bullet at ~ 2150 FPS with no compression with a lead jacketed bullet. No you cannot seat a 500 grain mono bullet or even a 500 grain spire in the case wit 72 gr of Accurate 2230 and have it fit in a standard magazine.
The cartridge is best suited with a 450 gr.
Swift ahead of 74 Gr of 2230 or a 500 gr woodleigh, Hornady DGS, or even perhaps the new Hornady bonded DGX if it pans out.
Unless hunting something that required a solid, I think the 450 swift @ close to 2300 FPS ahead of 74 gr. of 2230 is a great combination. It is an accurate combination as well.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Sir Alf, Much admired by this writer so I write this delicately.
Context: This discussion is about the 458 today and tomorrow. In that Context, there is nothing wrong with the 458 WM.
In history, there is something wrong with about every cartridge of any type. Even the Great and deadly 375 H&H has it's closet with bones. It's not very big admittedly and there is only a small femur in there that looks like a Winchester bullet or two but...

quote:

If someone is happy with a larger platform, then the .458 Win.Mag. Longcol 3.8", Lott and more-so the Rigby are still the caliber of choice. They do it in their sleep, just like a .458 Win.Mag. Longcol

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Sadly "Ballistics in Perspective", however well intentioned will not withstand even the smallest measure of peer review or scientific scrutiny.

Its only redeeming value is that it has anecdotal evidence from a very accomplished and experienced game control officer. ie level 5 evidence.

The rest sadly is worthless. What is more the references cited in his bibliography all are from lay publications written by ordinary folk.

The only apparent "expert" citations comes from a series of articles written by one Fifi Hundt in Magnum Magazine in the early 80's.

What is interesting is that Game Laws were based on some of these recommendations and I have always wondered what would happen if the veracity of the law itself were challenge in a Court by experts in the field.

The most glaring "mistake" if you may is to correlate projectile physical attributes of kinetic energy and caliber to a probability of killing a animal..... the concepts are worlds apart and drawing correlations can be shot down by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of science..... anyway was just musing !

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
What is wrong with the 458 the way it is.

Yup, not a thing wrong with it,
but it can do so much more!

Probably 5 years ago we found the match with Accurate 2230 powder that offered results that many looked to achieve since the cartridge was developed. 500 gr bullet at ~ 2150 FPS with no compression with a lead jacketed bullet. No you cannot seat a 500 grain mono bullet or even a 500 grain spire in the case wit 72 gr of Accurate 2230 and have it fit in a standard magazine.
The cartridge is best suited with a 450 gr.
Swift ahead of 74 Gr of 2230 or a 500 gr woodleigh, Hornady DGS, or even perhaps the new Hornady bonded DGX if it pans out.
Unless hunting something that required a solid, I think the 450 swift @ close to 2300 FPS ahead of 74 gr. of 2230 is a great combination. It is an accurate combination as well.

EZ

I like the .458/450-grain North Fork better than the Swift 450-grainer. It is groovy man!
Also has a bonded nose core and a solid copper base cylinder.





Drive it faster than 2300 fps impact and the expanded front folds back to smaller diameter
and it will penetrate deeper with that solid cylinder of copper backing it.
No funny base-bulges or pressure spikes out of the blue, as is so common with Swift A-Frames.
The grooves reduce bearing surface and start pressure. Also provide perfect Longcol loading with crimping.
I load it to 3.600" COL, and then it will do over 2400 fps, in the .458 Win.Mag.
At that COL, you can eject unfired ammo from the chamber.
That works great in my Whitworth MarkX, Winchester M70, and WinCzechster, all with 3.4" box length.

Pair that with the CEB .458/450-grain Brass Safari Solid at 3.360" COL,
fill your 3.4" box with that, at an easy + 2300 fps, and you have one bullet weight for everything.

Rip ...

quote:

The facts are however that there is an awful lot of anecdotal evidence from a large number of highly experienced and respected Control officers and PH's from Mike Lagrange and Richard Harland to John Kingsley Heath, Harry Selby and Finn Aargard to simply discount the 458 as ineffective.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Again the issue of context comes up:

The 458's reputation or lack thereof was not founded on its ability to knock down "soft skinned " DG like lion or bear or even buffalo but rests solely on its perceived lack of ability on Elephant.

If Phil has trust in his 458 win to keep his clients safe from Bears who are we to judge him and to be honest I would never dream of doing so because he has the experience and I not !

Other than Jack Lott's account of failure on a single event on Buffalo ( and that would require some investigation as to was to whether it was really the 458 Win that failed or simply the shooters inability to hit the animal in the right spot )

Its intended and traditional role was and basically still is as a short range DG stopper !

The interesting point is that there are few if any accusations of failure or lack of performance on large soft game when it comes to the 510 gr soft no matter what the velocity !

This in itself warrants attention because what this means is that when a Soft nosed bullet fired from a 458 win deforms and flattens out it becomes stable then in this form it is very very effective on soft skinned game , most satisfyingly so !

There are no indictments that it is not a good choice in the hands of a trained PH or trails ranger as a back up gun when guiding DG hunts for everything else other than Elephant.

The operative word was elephant !

One could argue we are pontificating about a concept that will soon be something we read about on history books only as elephant hunting or shooting is becoming a rarity . And those who are shooting them are actually shooting relatively small specimens. Even in the now historical concept of culling the traditional DG rifles was ousted by the use of military weapons of far lesser caliber ! Their effectiveness in that realm far supersedes that of a bolt action large bore.

Whether it was in fact the lack of velocity or more importantly the then unknown and unexplored issues pertaining to the behaviour of RN solid bullets in dense targets those who used them at the time did not understand why the 458 showed such erratic behaviours. And if they did they never mentioned it or alluded to it in their writings on the issue !

The fact that there is a simple remedy to greatly enhance function of a 45 caliber Solid by simply blunting the nose to a FN attests to this fact.

We now know that a FN monometal Solid fired from far lesser platforms than a 458 Win and at kinetic energies far below the mandated minimus required by law in the case of Zimbabwe ( Rhodesia) is very very effective ! It is also testimony to what is wrong with LaGranges book and why the theory behind anecdotal evidence put forth by many many experienced hunters we so love to site is also wrong

It goes to prove why I make the statement that even the law would not withstand challenge.

It was Einstein that proclaimed that repeating a error a thousand times over to prove validity does not suddenly make it valid it is in fact the definition of insanity

Historically there have been many many books written about DG rifles and their use , there have been even more articles published on the subject and in all except perhaps for work done by John Buhmiller no one seemed to have grasp of what constituted in-target bullet stability.

Every time a picture of a banana shaped RN FMJ with some measure of
" toothpasting" was depicted the words " must have hit bone" got added


Whilst not even in the realm of some of the great names mentioned the name Art Alpin comes up because in a sense he single handedly, and overlooked by many changed our thinking of the shape of the DG bullet and how it affected performance.

Up to this point the old English Doubles and the 458 Win that followed were utilizing ogived RN FMJ's with varying ogival shape and no one actually realized that this was the key to in target performance. If they did it was never mentioned.

Art Alpin introduced commercially a hemispherical solid, basically a round ball cut in half sitting at the end of a short rod. Other than shortening the rod until you have a ball you basically have the most stable configuration a conventional bullet can go other than blunting the nose to a flat surface !

And it brings us then to the issue of anecdotal evidence. It is one thing claiming trust in something that works in your hands and inducing others to do the same.... however propagating science albeit pseudoscience and doing it a thousand times over does not make it valid it is the definition of insanity

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
If the throat specs were the same regardless of the length, what is the effect if it is NOT regardless of the case length?

quote:

500 NE performance?
500 Accrel?

quote:

It is the biggest you can go where recoil is not so large that recovery from recoil becomes a distraction or even a liability.

It certainly applies to the world of handgun competition and also the modern sport of simulated DG hunting. .... and is definitely applicable to the world of real DG hunting.

Years ago SA hunters had a shooting day at the Zonderwater Correctional Facility shooting range and there was a competition to simulate DG hunting. This was before it was actually formulated as a official sport. The biggest baddest calibers never won !

quote:

as long as you do not load it to its full potential.
Throttle it back.
Load it just right.

quote:

A hunter must treat the rifle like a tool, like shooting a 270. And then the largest, accurate rifle that the hunter can treat like a 270 is best

quote:

Yup,
the .458 Win.Mag. is the Goldilocks of big-bore DGRs,
as long as you do not load it to its full potential.
Throttle it back.
Load it just right.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

quote:

And then the largest, accurate rifle that the hunter can treat like a 270 is best

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

quote:

A hunter must treat the rifle like a tool, like shooting a 270. And then the largest, accurate rifle that the hunter can treat like a 270 is best

quote:

a hunter only needs to treat a DG tool "like a 270" for a half-dozen shots on a particular da

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

quote:

a hunter only needs to treat a DG tool "like a 270" for a half-dozen shots on a particular da

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

quote:

a hunter only needs to treat a DG tool "like a 270" for a half-dozen shots on a particular day

I can see your point. However, the way I rated the 375 a couple of posts above also covers shooting from improvised rests. In other words a 375 loaded to about original ballistics and similar powder charge weights is my limit whereby I can shoot the rifle with making any allowance for recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The price is recoil impulse and specifically that part that deals with the aftermath of recoil. ie the ability to bring the rifle to bare for the next shot.

In the world of fast accurate shooting there is enough evidence to state that the biggest baddest caliber is not going to win the competition.

It is the biggest you can go where recoil is not so large that recovery from recoil becomes a distraction or even a liability.

It certainly applies to the world of handgun competition and also the modern sport of simulated DG hunting. .... and is definitely applicable to the world of real DG hunting.

Years ago SA hunters had a shooting day at the Zonderwater Correctional Facility shooting range and there was a competition to simulate DG hunting. This was before it was actually formulated as a official sport. The biggest baddest calibers never won !

Calibers with recoil so big that shooters loose control of the firearm, even if it is momentarily or the rise of the gun is so large that effort has to be expended to bring the gun to bare for the next shot basically disqualifies certain caliber choices for consideration as effective DG rifles.

When large scale elephant culling was an issue ( it is now a thing of the past ) it was proven to a point where large bores fell from consideration as weapons of choice simply because of recoil and its effects. A shooter faced with the prospect of having to deal with a herd of 20 or more animals having to shoot them under two minutes within a radius of 25 meters and having a 90 % one shot kill / incapacitation rate cannot do it with a large bore bolt gun or double period !

By own admission culling team members conceded early on in the process that recoil effect on vision and recovery is to great and that it becomes a liability. Firing a 600 double or a 500 Jeffery, 20 shots or more in quick succession is brutal ! I don't care who you are !

.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
RIP has left the 458 Win to languish in the backwaters