quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Now fellas, this is a "Friends of the .458 Winchester Magnum" thread. No need for jackaloping with seriously fundamental ballistic science.

Gustavo should be forgiven for being overzealous but well-intentioned in the .458 Winner Magnum Camp.

Of course Alf and 416 Tanzan are getting the better of this tagteam on Gustavo.

SD is all important.
Gerard's article has tongue-in-cheek elements.
SD drives BC for given bullet shapes and velocities.
SD drives penetration of solids for given velocity, bullet construction, nose shape, etc.
SD drives expansion of softs at any given velocity and thus puts the brakes on the penetration it creates.
The higher SD bullet will expand more than the lower SD bullet, all other factors same.

But, do not limit the .458 Win.Mag. to only 2400 fps with a 400-grainer.
And remember this cartridge is special.
If you sight it 3" high at 100 yards, that is about as high as it is going.
3.14" maximum ordinate is not obscene, though it is for adults only.
Those who cannot deal with that are offered a Nikon SlugHunter dead-on at 100 yards, that is 0.00" at 100 yards,
and use a cheatsheet for reticle hold at longer ranges.

Or just sight it like Finn Aagaards's iron sighted .458 Win.Mag. ...


Rip ...

Ron, I'm just second to you when it comes to watch the honor of the Almighty

But...let me say this about some considerations made by the tagteam

In order to avoid hijacking this thread anymore, with a lengthy argument over ballistics, SD; etc I'll likely join the new thread just opened or will start a new one.

The Fun is all about to begin since we are far from being done

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

The maximum point-blank-ranges (PBR) above, are based on a 12"-diameter vital zone.
IIRC, Gustavo suggested that,
and it sure makes the PBRs for the .458 Win.Mag. impressive.
Even a Jungle carbine can do 2150 fps with a 500-grainer.

Rip ...

Yup...that was me, guilty of charges

The .458/400-grain GSC HV bullets are supposed to be produced and shipped to me in the coming week.
Some extenuating circumstances have delayed the order.
The weather needs to cooperate for test firing, so the chronograph works outdoors.
I want to chronograph every shot.
Should be most interesting.
More interesting than some ol' 500 Jeffery or 425 WR.
The .458 Win.Mag. has no equal.
There can be only one winner in a beauty contest.
The rest are runnersup.

Rip ...

quote:

The .458/400-grain GSC HV bullets are supposed to be produced and shipped to me in the coming week.

Go, team-Gina, Go!

Even us 416, light-DG advocates want to see the 400gn GSC do its paces. Probably similar to the .416" 330gn GSC, a couple hundred fps slower. I'm sure RIP can find a way to hot-load up the remaining 200fps.

The GSC HV is a remarkable bullet design that really comes into its own in the larger calibers. Not that it doesn't work in small calibers, but the price tends to restrain from small-caliber shooting practice. The big bores have their own restraint mechanisms (like occasional head-snapping recoil ? ) so that the price is much less of an issue.

PS on GSC-HV

quote:

Not that it doesn't work in small calibers,

For example, my wife hunts California deer with .277" 110gn TTSX. It's a great bullet, sub-MOA in her rifle, and about half-price ($0.59/b) of the GSC-HV's ($1.20/b). The same is true for a 243 I load for. The 69gn GSC-HV costs enough ($0.94/b) that the 80gnTTSX ($0.57/b) or even 100NP ($0.59/b) become bullets of choice. But the GSC-HVs are great bullets. I suppose I would just need to find a sub-1/2MOA sweet spot with the GSCs to justify a switch.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .458/400-grain GSC HV bullets are supposed to be produced and shipped to me in the coming week.
Some extenuating circumstances have delayed the order.
The weather needs to cooperate for test firing, so the chronograph works outdoors.
I want to chronograph every shot.
Should be most interesting.
More interesting than some ol' 500 Jeffery or 425 WR.
The .458 Win.Mag. has no equal.
There can be only one winner in a beauty contest.
The rest are runnersup.

Rip ...

Ron, have you considered the MagnetoSpeed chrono?

I use it and have replaced all of the optical ones I had before. No need to fiddle with the light or ambient conditions and to true velocities to the muzzle. It's really amazing. You can get the Sporter model for less than $200

https://store.magnetospeed.com...magnetospeed-sporter

One more time, your words of wisdom about the .458WM left me speechless.

Gustavo,
I have 4 optical chronographs here, and need to destroy them before I get any new systems.
It is not all about lighting and wind and rain and snow, sleet, or hail conditions.
I would not trust any of the electronics systems in freezing, outdoor temperature conditions,
even Magnetospeed.
Winters are short in Kentucky.
Though I could sure use my own indoor range,
I won't be getting one.

Rip ...

the ph custom 458 is done just need to get the photos to post it cross bolts and all buttoned up

so soon posted here

It sure is easy to stir up caca on the .458 Win.

stradling,

Good show Ol' Chap.
For The Mission!
We'll have to time this to head the top of page 33 for easy reference on the thread,
to your PH Custom .458 Winner Magnum.
This is post number 35 of 40 allowed on this page.
5 more posts after this, then page 33 starts.

Rip ...

There was a death in the Schultz family, family travel back to RSA, mourning.
Condolences and prayers.
The 400-gr/.458 HVs are still in process ...
Rip ...

Atkinson ya shuda come down it was the 7 month gun build an odyssey of ''great'' adventure

its light - its wood - its well appointed - it runs six slick - 550s or 500s she slaps stuff around at 2,150 and could do more for a better man the reflex mounting smithson system - well nothing out there even close it is old holland and holland style w lines to die for - will out shoot a lott 5 days a week and that's enough cause the government guys don't work weekends [ built for the professional hunter ] and the custom trigger w 2 rollers and set screws aint simple aint cheap - just tough reliable and smooth at 3.5 pounds---so unless you go to the show you may never have a chance to run her lines

your hand down her waist and beyond if you get my drift Ray

This is reply #39 of page 32.
Next reply on this page will be #40, and then page 33 starts.
Ahem ...
I am still awaiting the GSC HV .458/400-grainer.
Its competition is the Barnes TSX .458/500-grainer:



Only 78.0 grains of AA-2230 and 2250 fps MV was most accurate.
83.0 grains gave 2342 fps, and only 5 fps SD for 3 shots,
but it was not as accurate as the above "winner" load.
And the Nikon SlugHunter is still going strong:






Rip ...

its light - its wood - its well appointed - it runs six slick - 550s or 500s she slaps stuff around at 2,150 and could do more for a better man the reflex mounting smithson system - well nothing out there even close it is old holland and holland style w lines to die for - will out shoot a lott 5 days a week and that's enough cause the government guys don't work weekends [ built for the professional hunter ] and the custom trigger w 2 rollers and set screws aint simple aint cheap - just tough reliable and smooth at 3.5 pounds---so unless you go to the show you may never have a chance to run her lines

rifle comes in right at 8.5 lb snap on the reflex site shove 5 500 grain ers down the silo plus one up the stack and she breaks right at 9 lb its long lean light and

hot to the touch Ray --

makes the guy strutting around camp packing a blockie big old over powdered CZ 458 lott - look like a fool

posted Jan 29, 8:12 AM Hide Post
its light - its wood - its well appointed - it runs six slick - 550s or 500s she slaps stuff around at 2,150 and could do more for a better man the reflex mounting smithson system - well nothing out there even close it is old holland and holland style w lines to die for - will out shoot a lott 5 days a week and that's enough cause the government guys don't work weekends [ built for the professional hunter ] and the custom trigger w 2 rollers and set screws aint simple aint cheap - just tough reliable and smooth at 3.5 pounds---so unless you go to the show you may never have a chance to run her lines

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
its light - its wood - its well appointed - it runs six slick - 550s or 500s she slaps stuff around at 2,150 and could do more for a better man the reflex mounting smithson system - well nothing out there even close it is old holland and holland style w lines to die for - will out shoot a lott 5 days a week and that's enough cause the government guys don't work weekends [ built for the professional hunter ] and the custom trigger w 2 rollers and set screws aint simple aint cheap - just tough reliable and smooth at 3.5 pounds---so unless you go to the show you may never have a chance to run her lines

If Joe has that rifle at the show it will have my paw prints all over it !

just wait till you get your hands on her Phill bet ya Joe can't get er back short of a fist fight--- Ha!!

What a beauty! If Hugh Hefnet was A rifle nut, he'd have had a couple of those made! A rifle that fine deserves a ring and a wedding.

This has been a very informative thread. I can certainly see how the .458 Win Mag has advantages (for a reloaders who is willing to experiment a little) over the .458 Lott in any current production magazine rifle, especially when using long, banded, homogeneous bullets. I was unaware that the Win and Lott had different throat dimensions and styles, with a noteworthy advantage going to the Win Mag. If I were buying a new .458 bolt action, I'd probably choose the Win Mag, given what I've learned here.

With all that said, my only .458 is a ss/lam Ruger No. 1 in .458 Lott that I call "The Bisonator". It is throated to accept 500 gr Barnes TSX and Banded Solids crimped to the last cannelure. My 500 gr TSX's are loaded to 4.080" col and can easily be driven to 2400 fps with either TAC or X-Terminator/AA2230. If you have a rifle in .458 Lott that will safely chamber the 500 gr TSX at 4.080" col, I'd start at 87 gr of TAC or 85 gr of AA2230 and increase 1 gr at a time until desired velocity and accuracy is reached. 2400 fps is no problem and even 2500 may be doable. 2400 and moderate pressures are good enough for me in a .458 "Lotts More".

My favorite load in my No 1 .458 Lott is the Barnes 450 gr TSX, with a col of 3.960", at 2500 fps. I use TAC to get there and would again recommend starting at 87 gr and carefully working up 1 gr at a time.

I prefer the 450 gr over the 500 gr because I get better accuracy and expansion from it. I will probably try some different combinations with the 500 gr this spring and see what happens.

I'm also considering rechambering the rifle to .460 Wby. It would be interesting to see how fast it would push a 500 gr TSX when loaded to about 4.180" !!!!


I didn't mean to turn attention away from the .458 Win Mag. I just thought my experience with loading the .458 Lott might be applicable in a conversation about loading big bores to a longer col than normal. I do this with my BFR in .500 S&W as well but that info belongs in another discussion.

Unless you have a single shot that's throated for a longer col than the .458 Win Mag can manage or a similarly throated bolt action and want to single load it, there's no advantage that the Lott has over the Win Mag. In my Ruger No 1, I figure my best Lott loads would probably beat the best Win Mag "long" loads by about 100 fps with 450-500 gr bullets. I say probably because I've never tried such an experiment. I'm basing this on standardized published data and what I believe the Lott's extra .300" of case capacity will yield.

If you are a reloader and you are feeding your cartridges from a bolt action's magazine, the .458 Lott has no apparent advantages and appears to actually have a few disadvantages. Again, this has been a truly informative read!!

stradling,

She is a beauty, but is she still in the white, or is she polished stainless, nickle-plated, or Robar NP3 Plus?


Rip ...

srshooter,

You get it.

I agree that the 450-grainer is the best compromise in any of the .458 "Magnums."
But if a lighter or heavier bullet works best in a specific application,
let's keep some of those on hand too.

Any SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag, whether with 3.4" magazine box length, or 3.8", on a bolt-action, or with a single-shot action,
can be long loaded to improve accuracy and velocity, and in a few special cases,
the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. can equal or exceed a .458 Lott.
Might be limited to single-shot loading,
if long magazine not used.

I had a .458 Lott stainless/laminate Ruger No.1 like yours, but mine got re-chambered to 450 NE 3.25-Inch Thin-Rimmed.

My .458 Lott CZ 550 Magnum Kevlar model got traded in on a Ruger No.1 .475 Linebaugh, for further practice with LongCOL loading,
which seems to work wonders there too.

I allow a couple of .458 Lotts to hang around still, a CZ 550 Magnum and a Whitworth MkX.
Those two are allowed becaused both were re-chambered from .458 WinMag with a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer.
That Lott throat is swallowed by a SAAMI .458 WinMag throat.
This effectively allows 3.8" and 3.6" .458 WinMag LongCOL performance, despite the 2.8" .458 Lott brass used in the respective rifles.

I have 3 other .458 Win.Mag. rifles, all with 3.4" box.
But I will not quit until I have .458 Winchester Magnum rifles with 3.6" and 3.8" magazine box lengths,
and not butchered to .458 Lott!

Rip ...

still in the white needs a good blue en

Rip, my gunsmith lengthened my Lott's throat to .750", so I could squeeze all I can from the 2.8" case, while having the ability to shoot standard Lotts and Win Mags. I'm happy with the results thus far. With a 450 or 500 gr TSX (in a .458 Lott rethroated like mine) loaded and crimped on the bottom cannelure and a full case (not compressed) of TAC, the Lott proves its worth. An EASY 2400 fps with 500 grainers and 2500 with 450's, plus the ability to shoot any .458 Win Mag loads makes for a very versatile setup. You just have to shoot a rethroated single shot, or single load your bolt action. Is it worth it? Opinions will vary.

Btw, that 450 NE 3-1/4 sounds pretty cool!!!!

stradling,
I like the walnut and stainless look, Robar NP3 Plus?

srshooter,
Good on you.
That is the way to un-handicap a .458 Lott.
Yep, about 3/4" of throat-jump from case mouth to lands.
Then it can run with the big dog.
I can single load my bolt-action, re-chamber Lotts similarly, as you say.



The 450 NE 3.25-Inch Thin Rim of 1898 has a throat with zero free-bore, just leade, cleaned up the old Lott chamber completely.



Really just a curio, better for cast bullets and pinky-finger erections, but otherwise cannot compete with a .458 Lott LongCOL in a Ruger No.1.




Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
stradling,
I like the walnut and stainless look, Robar NP3 Plus?

srshooter,
Good on you.
That is the way to un-handicap a .458 Lott.
Yep, about 3/4" of throat-jump from case mouth to lands.
Then it can run with the big dog.
I can single load my bolt-action, re-chamber Lotts similarly, as you say.



The 450 NE 3.25-Inch Thin Rim of 1898 has a throat with zero free-bore, just leade, cleaned up the old Lott chamber completely.



Really just a curio, better for cast bullets and pinky-finger erections, but otherwise cannot compete with a .458 Lott LongCOL in a Ruger No.1.




Rip ...

Hahaha! Pinky finger erections! Good one! I guess I'll have to wait until I am an official member of the English Tea Sipper Society before I acquire a .450 NE!!

I was hoping that only applied to the Loyal Fraternity Of Double Rifle Enthusiasts!

As I stated in an earlier post, I am considering rechambering my Lott to .460 Wby. With a 500 gr TSX loaded to about 4.180" col, I bet it could break 2800 fps. That would be a frigging meteor!!! I don't know what useful purpose such a load would serve......but wow!!

Kinda doubtful I'll do that unless I get pretty bored of my Lott. For a bolt rifle, I really like the idea of a CZ in .458 Winnie, with new bottom metal for 6 down, 22" spotter weight barrel (maybe octagonal), McMillan stock (maybe camo), 2.5x Leupold in Warne qd's, ghost rear and barrel band front sourdough, Timney trigger, plus all the extra fat taken off. That would make a near perfect bear and buff rifle and a fun plinker to boot!

My first two big bores:




Saeed had a Ruger No.1 .458 Win.Mag. re-chambered to 460 Weatherby.
He had a video of somebody shooting that, and he laughed in the background live narration of that "Champion" video too.

Be careful there. If the factory drilled those quarter rib screw and pin holes too deep,
you might need a new barrel.
Better to stick with a long-throated .458 Lott, or the skinny 450 NE Thin Rim 3.25".
Prior to 2002, CIP .458 Lott chamber had the same throat on it as the .458 WinMag.
Current CIP and SAAMI .458 Lott throats are the same, short, handicapped.

Rip ...

Very nice rifles !

Rip, I only have a few medium to big bore rifles (.375 Wby and up) and I like my No 1 the way it is. Rechambering to .460 is just an idea that I doubt I'll ever go through with. Thanks for the heads up though on the quarter rib pins!!

My largest current cal is a .500 A2 built on a CZ 550. I have some pics floating around that I posted a few years ago. You could say it quenched my thirst for power, at least temporarily. To me it's about the largest caliber that is truly versatile. That said, I might do a .600 OK or .585 HE on a CZ one day soon before I'm too old and brittle to shoot it.

A CZ .458 Win Mag like I described sounds awfully appealing too and would surely get more field and range time than a "super bore". Keep spreading the .458 Win gospel. I'll bet most future .458 Lott buyers are unaware of the advantages that the .458 Win has over it. I know I was!

I think I purchased my No1 Lott in 2003. It definitely had the short throat.

srshooter,

My first gun was a 20 Gauge single-shot.
My last one might be too.
I tried to have it built on a Ruger No.1, rim just a little too big.
Rebooted to a Pedersoli Sharps 1874, to be turned into a 20 Gauge Ex Purgatorio 3.5", re-named to 62-240 Sharps Straight 3.5", aka "Sharps Big-Sixty" aka "Badder Poison Slinger."
From the BPCR forum:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Action and wood for the 62-240, barrel for 40-90:



VC barrel came from Ed Hubel:



To Sir Samuel "Quigley" Baker then:

Still waiting on the GSC .458/400-grain HV.


Rip ...

quote:

Still waiting on the GSC .458/400-grain HV.

Give gina a call. GSC are good people.

416Tanzan,

Gina's Mom and Pop , Elmarie and Gerard, are back here in USA now, after recent trip to RSA for death of Mrs. Elmarie Schultz's Father.
I have been corresponding with Elmarie by email.
Gina does not seem to be involved in correspondence on orders right now.
Condolences and prayers sent.
And I am praying not to be too much of a pest at such a time.
But secretly praying to get hold of those .458/400-grain GSC HV bullets.

Maybe a flood of orders for that bullet would get them sitting on the shelf for immediate shipping next time.

Elmarie said I am the only person who has ordered that bullet since they have been making bullets at GSC-USA, here in the USA.

Rip ...

I went to the oldest/longest-running Indiana gunshow Saturday afternoon. A pleasant, small affair at the 4-H expo building in Booneville, Indiana, the locals are keeping it on life support.
I went there on a tip received via a contact from a member here.
I bought out the .458 WinMag bullet and brass stocks of a dead man. His widow was not interested in continuing to handload for his .458 WinMag.
Three boxes of Barnes X-Cannelured 400-grainers were included with original price tag of $15.95 per box of 20 bullets.
They don't make those anymore.
That is the bullet that Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker said worked as well or better than all 500-grain soft points tested.
On artificial media by Finn, at about 2350 fps, the 400-grain X-Bullet gave deeper penetration and bigger wound channel combined, to outstrip any 500 grainer at 2150 fps, from the .458 WinMag.
Apparently Phil noted performance as good or better than any 500-grain soft, on the big brown bears of Alaska.

Now, if 200 fps extra for the 400-grain X-bullet, and its structural integrity, gives it the edge over any and all 500-grainers,
the .458-cal/400-grain GSC HV at up to 2500 fps might be a wunderbullet.

+2400 fps is easy with shortCOL loading in the .458 WinMag.
+2500 fps should be a possible with "longerCOL" loading,
as a single loader in the standard SAAMI rifle,
or as a magazine-filler in only a 3.6" boxed .458 WinMag,
which any post-'63 Winchester M70 can be easily converted to by removing the block at the rear of the box, and shortening the ejector.
Loaded 3.6" COL, unfired rounds will eject from a standard 3.4"-boxed M70 just fine, with no modifications.

Rip ...

quote:

Now, if 200 fps extra for the 400-grain X-bullet, and its structural integrity, gives it the edge over any and all 500-grainers,
the .458-cal/400-grain GSC HV at up to 2500 fps might be a wunderbullet.

I'll expect the same from a 450grain .510" at 2600fps. Others can try to push it beyond 2600.
A Wunderbullet, you say?

Even 2425-2450fps for the .458" should be acceptable, 5350 ft#, comfortable yet robust.

416Tanzan,

The "moment" (both kinds) of bullet impact:



It is true that the .510/450-grain GSC HV at 2654 fps MV is also a wunderbullet, as used on buffalo pictured above and below.
The bull above was unaware of the hunter, 75 yards away, until he took a bullet.
He bucked like a rodeo bull despite a broken shoulder and a big hole through his heart, bullet lodged in offside shoulder muscle.
He soaked up enough foot pounds to lift his weight higher than he jumped upward on three legs,
ran 50 yards and died.



SD of .510-cal/450-grainer: 0.247
SD of .458-cal/400-grainer: 0.272

In the .458 Win. Mag., the 400-grainer will be slower than the 450-grainer from my 500 Mbogo, ditto your 500 AR Nyati.

But the slightly better SD of the .458 will drive expansion better, even at slightly lesser velocity.
BC?
Less recoil.

I am happy with either.
They would make a nice, redundant 2-rifle battery for a buffalo safari.
The .458 Win. Mag. would be a better plains game and varmint/baboon rifle.
More versatile.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

The "moment" (both kinds) of bullet impact:



It is true that the .510/450-grain GSC HV at 2654 fps MV is also a wunderbullet, as used on buffalo pictured above and below.
The bull above was unaware of the hunter, 75 yards away, until he took a bullet.
He bucked like a rodeo bull despite a broken shoulder and a big hole through his heart, bullet lodged in offside shoulder muscle.
He soaked up enough foot pounds to lift his weight higher than he jumped upward on three legs,
ran 50 yards and died.



SD of .510-cal/450-grainer: 0.247
SD of .458-cal/400-grainer: 0.272

In the .458 Win. Mag., the 400-grainer will be slower than the 450-grainer from my 500 Mbogo, ditto your 500 AR Nyati.

But the slightly better SD of the .458 will drive expansion better, even at slightly lesser velocity.
BC?
Less recoil.

I am happy with either.
They would make a nice, redundant 2-rifle battery for a buffalo safari.
The .458 Win. Mag. would be a better plains game and varmint/baboon rifle.
More versatile.

Rip ...

I still love that picture of a buffalo taking a hit. Baaaammmm, smack! Ahooouch!

Yes, I have noticed the SC and think that .272 is about ideal with monolithics and buffalo. But so is .510" entrance wound. As for plains game, my AR Nyati shoots the 360tippedCEB about 2" higher than the GSC 450gn, and the 360gn leaves the barrel at 2800fps. Pretty awesome. Don't need a range finder out to 300 yards.
But you are correct about the easier recoil. I'm still over two years to 70, but I'm thinking about the day when I will want to step down a bit. The 400grainGSC in a 458 is definitely a "player." But so is the 330gnGSC in a 416Ruger. We'll see what happens in a few years and what politics will have to say about East Africa. I will admit that a 400gnGSC in a 458 is a FORMIDABLE all-around load for East Africa. But you must admit that a 330gnGSC 416 Ruger also makes a FORMIDABLE all-around load. AN eland won't notice the difference of either, though I would choose the 458 for a buffalo. I always choose the heaviest, most-powerful, ACCURATE load for a buffalo. And the 330gn at 2600-2650fps is comfortable. Sweet. You know that.