What about discussing hunting DG with the .458WM?

Barnes TSX or CE bullets could be a good starting point.

Gustavo,
DG hunting with the .458 WinMag and proper bullet selection: That will eventually add many pages to this thread.
Working on it.

Natural sunlight does make the WinCzechster LOOK "better."
She SHOOTS better in good sunlight too, of course.


416Tanzan,
Barrel length is not involved in characterizing the .458 B&M as a "toy."
It is the strict limits imposed on it by action length, magazine box length, cartridge overall length, and net case capacity.
If you do not like calling the .458 B&M a "toy"
let us just call it a "dwarf."

.458 B&M Dwarf:

Game of Rifles:
To be continued. Up next: 400-grainers
Rip
.

Are we settlers?
Wouldn't a non settler want a 458 based on the 404 case?
Maybe a 400 Whelenesque cart based on the Ruger case?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Are we settlers?
Wouldn't a non settler want a 458 based on the 404 case?
Maybe a 400 Whelenesque cart based on the Ruger case?

You would give up an extra round in the box with a 404J-basis,
even the .458/.375 Ruger might be too tight, let alone the tiny shoulder versus the most positive
headspacing of a belt.
Yep. Call me a settler and proud of it.
My family has been doing that since 1607 in Virginia, and since 1790 in Kentucky, when it was still a county of Virginia.

Rip
.

RIP,
Thanks for the tip on Wipe Out. Fantastic for copper. No more Sweets and elbow grease!
JRN

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
Besides the obvious, I like the Ruger Hawkeye action with the frame-mounted 3-pos safety and integral scope mount...and my specs called for a real SS CRF action, and as far as I can tell, no other manufacturer can provide it and being affordable did not hurt either.
Only drawback is you have to give up 2 cartridges in the magazine, when compared to the venerable CZ...but to be honest I can live with the Ruger the way it is.

Gustavo's requirements for his "Jungle Carbine"
are really the same as CTF's requirements for his "Spruce King," I reckon.
They both ended up with stainless Rugers with 3.4" magazine length.
My likes are the same as theirs, except I want to have either/or/and longer magazine lengths:
3.6" and 3.8"

The Ruger M77 and the Winchester M70 both can be opened up to 3.6" length.
Both are available as stainless.
The Ruger has integral scope bases, the Winchester does not.
Attaching a Picatinny to the top of an M70 with 8x40 screws and epoxy:
I can live with that, integral enough for me,
and I value the ability to accept many more scope&ring combos.
Offsets any disadvantages to me.

The CZ can be re-worked to all requirements except stainless, for the .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.8".
The chrome-moly might be stronger gun steel than the stainless.
Both are strong enough.
Corrosion resistance will just have to be "covered" by a finish like Cerakote on a CZ.
Or get an MRC PH for the 3.8" box.
The PH goes over 4.0" inside the box.
Alas, that is more than enough!

Rip
.

Well don't settle! Get on your covered wagon and adventure forth to manifest destiny!!!! You just need a 20 round Mag or stripper clips that will feed those fat sausages. Bolt action Mag fed 450-404 2 1/2"!!!! Better yet, mount a 45-70 crank turned Gatling gun on a howdah. Nothing like a Gatling off the back of a pachyderm on a Safari.

quote:

Originally posted by jrn:
RIP,
Thanks for the tip on Wipe Out. Fantastic for copper. No more Sweets and elbow grease!
JRN

jrn,

Welcome. I could not live without Wipe-Out, since I mostly shoot monometals and jacketed.
Did you get any of the Wipe-Out Accelerator?
(edit, NOT "BreakFree Accelerator", brain fart)
It is a liquid you soak a patch with and push down the barrel before using the Break-Free foam.
With that, I hardly ever have to do more than 2 half-hour to 1-hour soaks with the foam to remove the worst copper/brass/jacketed fouling.

Wipe-Out does squat on lead fouling in the bore, however.
Shooter's Choice Lead Remover and a copper or bronze bristle brush for that.
20 strokes of the rod. Patch. Repeat if fouling is severe.
Not a problem since discovering powder-coating with lead bullets.
Harbor Freight Red.
I wonder if the Harbor Freight Matte Black works too?

I like to finish up, after either of the above two sorts of cleanings,
with the same plastic bristle brush used with patches and the Wipe-Out foam,
as follows, superstitiously done after the bore is spotless:

1. Hoppe's No.9 on a patch and then a dry patch.
2. Spray some Action Blaster down the barrel until it starts dripping out of the down-pointing barrel then patch dry.
3. BreakFree CLP on a patch and then a dry patch.
4. Knock wood.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by aephilli:
only five pages to go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4YrCFz0Kfc

aephilli,

Great Youtube clip.
Thanks for that help with THE MISSION of the Four-Five-Eight Brothers.

boom stick,

You too.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,
DG hunting with the .458 WinMag and proper bullet selection: That will eventually add many pages to this thread.
Working on it.

.

Teaser... I cannot wait!

Will love to read what Ray has to say about.

RIP,
good intel on the shooters choice and since there is a horrible freight down the street I am seriously considering powder coating

This is the after wipe out report:

Admittedly I have not cleaned the barrel in approx. 50 shots with various TSXs(lazy), including a three shot 100yd group of .892 (450gr) two days ago to verify for bear season. After this I used the wipe out(noted in the post above) and was going to fire a single fouling shot before the season opener. But as you know, heavy rifles are rife with gremlins. And mine was a loose scope base. Re-secured everything and back to the range to check zero.

Results as follows(all at 100yd) - 5 shots after 1 fouling shot (all 450gr TSX, 3.50 oal, 72.0gr H4895, 4x fired Hornady brass - approx. 2190fps)

5 shot overall group, (including 3/4" adjustment after the 1st 2 shots) - .992

3 shot group after 3/4" adjustment - .492

That is a two thumbs up for Wipe Out

Hopefully I will be able to write a report documenting the terminal effects on a black bear in the next few days

JRN

jrn,
I had a brain fart and said "BreakFree Accelerator" (nonsense) when I meant Wipe-Out Accelerator in above post. Corrected.
Yep, Wipe-Out works.

Thanks for your load data. Good shootin'.
A black bear report would be good shootin' too.

Rip
.

About the .458 B&M Dwarf:

It would be better if done in a 3.4"-action and throated longer.
Then it could compete with the .458 WinMag.
But there is that pesky little rebate on the RUM rim,
that would require the 425 WR treatment of retaining lips on the receiver, etc.
That .425 Westley Richards was an odd duck too.

Rip
.

Working up from 300 grains to 600 grains with the jacketed bullets,
my rifle has two recommended loads so far:

Jacketed Load #1:
.458/300-grain TTSX and 71.0 grains of H4198 >>> 2640 fps MV >>> 4642 ft-lbs KE >>> 0.54-MOA (3-shot) <<< BC = 0.236.
Recoil Impulse = 5.0 lb*sec

Jacketed Load #2:
.458/350-grain TSX and 75.0 grains of H4198 >>> 2590 fps MV >>> 5212 ft-lbs KE >>> 0.33-MOA (3-shot) <<< BC = 0.278
Recoil Impulse = 5.6 lb*sec

Compare the above
to my working .375 H&H load,
let us call that "Jacketed Load Zero":

Jacketed Load Zero:
.375/300-grain TSX and 72.0 grains RL-15 >>> 2530 fps MV >>> 4263 ft-lbs KE >>> 0.75-MOA (3-shot) <<< BC = 0.357
Recoil Impulse = 4.9 lb*sec


Rip
.

After a nearly 30-year hiatus, this Ol'Fart, yours truly, is resuming loading of the same +30-year-old bullets.
They might make them pointier now?

Anyway, those old Barnes Originals will get started off, handloading tonight,
with the maximum COL that I reckon will work through the magazine box of the WinCzechster, 3.395" and flawless functioning.
The initial powder charges (grains) to be tried with 400-grain bullet:

H4198: 68, 69, 70
H322: 73, 74, 75
H4895: 76, 77, 78
AA-2230: 79, 80, 81

Kids: Don't try this at home without adult supervision.

Rip
.

I loaded 3-dozen cartridges with 400-grain bullet and 3.395" COL shown above, working up with 1 grain increments, 3 charges with each of 4 powders,
3 shots each charge.

I do not do QuickLOAD anymore.
After doing so many QuickLOADs on a computer,
I can now do it all in my head.
Don't even have to take my shoes and socks off for counting on fingers and toes.

For estimating volumetric fill percentage of a cartridge,
I use this method:
1. Look inside the charged case before seating the bullet.
2. Shake the loaded case beside my ear after seating the bullet to proper COL, even though I cannot hear the powder shaking anymore,
I can still feel it.
3. Estimate the volumetric status as either compressed (C) or not compressed (NC).
4. 100% fill is midway between where a 1-grain increment causes NC to become C.
5. Use arithmetic to estimate volumetric fill percentage based on the above.

H4198: 68.0, 69.0, 70.0 grains
70.0 grains H4198: NC

H322: 73.0, 74.0, 75.0 grains
75.0 grains H322: NC but mighty close to 99% fill

H4895: 76.0, 77.0, 78.0 grains
77.0 grains H4895: NC
78.0 grains H4895: C
Therefore 77.5 grains H4895 = 100% volumetric fill.

AA-2230: 79.0, 80.0, 81.0 grains
81.0 grains AA-2230: NC, eye-balled and shake-estimated to be about 95% fill.

Rip

I do not wax nostalgic for this one:

I sure wish I had kept my first big bore:



Rip
.

Trajectories rounded to the nearest inch:

.375 H&H: 300-grain TSX (BC = 0.357) MV 2530 fps (4263 ft-lbs KE), Trajectory:
Range
(yds)... drop
100 ... 0"
200 ... -5"
300 ... -18" (10 mph X-wind drift = 11", retained KE = 2296 ft-lbs)

.458 WinMag: 350-grain TSX (BC = 0.278) MV 2590 fps (5212 ft-lbs KE), Trajectory:
Range
(yds)... drop
100 ... 0"
200 ... -5"
300 ... -19" (10 mph X-wind drift = 14", retained KE = 2340 ft-lbs)

Rip
.

Each dot on the graph below for the 4 powders shown represents 3 shots chronographed: 36 shots fired today.
I should have worn more than a sweatshirt for warmth,
like maybe some gloves would have helped the cold fingers, my only discomfort.
This is a powder survey for velocity potential, and any hint at accuracy potential, or lack of either.
I blame the bullets or my shivering ... Winter is coming!

Top velocity was with AA-2230, 81.0 grains gave 2455 fps.
Lots of air space left with that dense ball powder.
85.0 grains might be a full case and give over 2500 fps with 400-grainer.

H322 is promising too.
75.0 grains is about a 99% fill.
76.0 grains might get about 2410 fps, 100% full case, and maybe even better accuracy.

H4198 is great with the 300 to 350 grainers but not too good with 400-grainers.

I am guessing AA-2230 will rule the roost with 450-grain and heavier bullets.
I might even be able to get a full case with AA-2230 and the heavier bullets.

Rip
.

Hodgdon data for .458 WinMag shows 400-grain Swift SP (A-Frame) at 3.220" COL, WW brass, CCI-250, 24" barrel:
H322 76.0 grains (Compressed) >>> 2407 fps <<< 51,100 CUP (my guess is about 58,000 PSI)
With my bullet and COL shown above, 76.0 grains of H322 just barely fills the case, ~100%

Western Powders data for .458 WinMag shows 400-grain Barnes SSSP at 3.140" COL, WW brass, F-215, 24" barrel:
AA-2230 80.0 grains (Compressed) >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 PSI
With my bullet and COL shown above, 81.0 grains of AA-2230, does not fill the case, there is room for a few more grains of powder.

I am pretty close to the "Company Data" above with my H322 and AA-2230 loads tried so far.
My longer COLs are done with hopes of improved accuracy, but they do require a little more powder to fill the air space.
They might allow a higher velocity at similar pressures too.
AA-2230 has the most potential for highest velocity at 100% volumetric load: Not Compressed.

Rip
.

400-grainers at +2400 fps in a .458 WinMag are too easy,
even with a "Shortclaw"/shortCOL of < 3.4", SAAMI 3.340".
I will wait for the GSC HV 400-grainer to go for +2500 fps.

How about 450 grainers at +2400 fps, possible?

More 400-grainers later.
Onward to 450-grainers in the .458 WinMag LongCOL/Longclaw ... with AA-2230 ...
Winter is coming!

Rip
.

Whoa.
A little more on 400-grainers, before moving on to 450-grainers.
How about a little sliver of foam caulk-backer rod to fill that empty air space with 80 grains of AA-2230?
That seemed to be a load hinting at accuracy in my rifle.
It was pressure-tested by Western Powders at only 53,690 PSI with ShortCOL load, 3.140".

I have about 10,000 PSI to play with for adding filler and switching bullets.
Even the Swift A-Frame .458/400-grain Pressure Spiker.
And my LongCOL loading technique makes that pressure margin even greater.
What a breeze.

Rip
.

Pros and cons, nobody is wrong, just have a different opine on the .458 Win. A lot of words are being put in other folks mouth that didn't say what they have been quoted:

In my case I said the 458 Win. is a proven killer, I would hunt any animal on earth with it, but its never been my choice..

1.In my opinion it needs to be handloaded to satisfy me.
2. If I were to build one for myself it would have at least a 24 inch barrel, but mine would have a 26 inch barrel.
3. Like the 357 shooting 38 Specials, The 458 Lott can shoot either 458 Win. or the more powerful 500 gr. bullet at 2300 to even 2400 FPS, in a STANDARD MAUSER 98 or MOD. 70 ACTION.
4. The Lott is now a factory option.
5. Whats not to like about my thinking??
6. Most of all for my part, I can load the Lott down to a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 to 2100 FPS without a packed case, with less pressure, and less recoil than a regular Lott load, but I have the option to go either way..

I will always prefer the Lott over the 458 Win that was designed by the bean counters who think only in terms of cash flow and a cheap way of saving the factory bucks, and it worked well in some cases, one being the 458 Win which at the time was the only whore in townv, thus its fame...

This post is my contribution to 25 pages, YOu guys are on your own from this point on.

Atkinson,

Thanks, from THE MISSION of the Four-Five-Eight Brothers.

Meanwhile, I am trying fillers with AA-2230 and 400-grainers aiming for a 3-shot-sub-MOA 2450 fps ...



Next post starts page 24.


Rip
.

Page 24:

Finn Aagaard published some penetration tests on softpoint ammo in the .458 WinMag.
He found that the 400-grain Barnes X-Bullet at 2358 fps (ShortCOL loads) was tied for tops in penetration,
and had the best wound channel of all the bullets he tested.
That is the same, slick-sided first generation X-Bullet pictured at bottom of last page, the added shallow cannelure is CH4D-Cantooled:



Closest competitors were a 465-grain A-Square Dead Tough at 2190 fps,
and the 500-grain Speer African Grand Slam at 2150 fps.

Phil Shoemaker has also remarked similarly that the old 400-grain X-Bullet (and/or the second generation version of it with one cannelure)
was tops in the field of big bear perforation,
as good as or better than any other, including all 500-grain bullets he has used in the .458 WinMag.

At one time Randy Brooks was quoted as saying the 400-grain X-Bullet was the most popular weight in their .458-caliber offerings.
It was subsequently discontinued, when the third generation, multi-grooved/cannelured versions came along. I wonder why?

Well, with the possibility of +2450 fps loads with that bullet,
even Gustavo could get it up to top performance levels in his 20-incher (+2350 fps),
though he might have to use the LongCOL loads single-loaded,
whilst keeping his magazine box filled with 500-grain ShortCOL loads.
Hey, that works in any SAAMI .458 WinMag, either ShortCOL or Longclaw ...
It was 28 degrees F here this morning.
The dog's backyard water dish was frozen solid.
Winter is coming ...

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

The Swift A-Frame .458/400-grainer is bound to be a great Bear Perforator, Lion Load, and possibly even a Buff Buster.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

But, Saint Finn did not include any North Fork 450-grainers in his softpoint penetration tests.
We'll be on page 25 soon if I have anything to do with it.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

My fourth-degree life membership in the NRA brings benefit of subscription to American Rifleman magazine.
I signed my wife up as a first-degree life member so she would get American Hunter.
The September 1992 AR had an article by Finn Aagaard, "More Magnum Firepower" mainly about D'Arcy Echols' magazine boxes,
but it had an interesting tidbit about Finn's "semi-custom" Westley Richards .458 WinMag.
Here it is, along with some elaboration (Imgured-in by me in bold black type) gleaned from other publications:



Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

Finn's WR .458 WinMag: Reminiscent of the WinCzechster, only mine feeds prettier.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

Finn's first exposure to the .458 WinMag in Kenya came when his brother-in-law, Peter Davey, got an M70 African in 1958.
They were limited to factory loads, and were not impressed with the 510-grain softpoints, for Texas Heart Shots on cape buffalo,
unavoidable when they ran out of the better performing FMJ solids for that purpose.

But Finn was impressed enough to get that .458 WinMag M70 Pushfeed in 1967, to supplement his 1948-vintage .375 H&H M70.

Possibly his first use of his first .458 WinMag came in 1967 when he was a cattle rancher in Kenya.
He ambushed a cattle-killing lion with the factory softpoint load, a one-shot kill:

"The bullet had gone in a little way in front of the cat's hip, and had exited a hand's span behind the opposite front leg. It had expanded sufficiently to tear up a lot of the works, including one lung, and had killed the lion within a few minutes."

It was a snapshot at night on a running lion, ambushed on returning to a dead steer 200 yards from Finn's house on the ranch.
They waited by the carcass and switched on the Land Rover headlights, after the lion walked by the bakkie, close enough to touch.
Good work that.
Finn started PH-ing soon after that.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

I also liked Finn's comment that a 500 grain Bullet traveling at 2000 fps left a big, bloody hole through anything it hit!

Brian Herne had a 458 made that held 6 down plus one in the chamber. Allison and Carey of Portland did the work. I'd love to see how they did that as Brian specified it was not a drop-floor magazine, but was widened.

I find it amazing how real pros like Brian Herne and professional cullers like Richard Harland and Mike LaGrange, who have killed thousands upon thousands of elephant, prefer the 458 Win while it gets bashed by "experts" on forums.

Even Harry Selby bought a 458 after he sold his 416 Rigby !

https://s19.postimg.org/i1xjo5xhf/DSC00538.jpg
This job alone made me a 458 believer! A hunter shot this fellow in the hump and kneecap giving me a follow up in the thickest crap around. My wife handling our Karelian led me straight to him after about 1/2 mile blood trailing for a potential charge and dispatch almost within spitting distance. 458WM w/ 500 Hornady RN@ 2050.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I find it amazing how real pros like Brian Herne and professional cullers like Richard Harland and Mike LaGrange, who have killed thousands upon thousands of elephant, prefer the 458 Win while it gets bashed by "experts" on forums.

Even Harry Selby bought a 458 after he sold his 416 Rigby !

It takes near 5,000 posts to become an expert - I think I read that on the interwebz... I'm not there yet... :-(

And i do believe Harry used the 458 only while the 416 was being re-barreled, which took quite a while. He sold the 416 about the time he was retiring so I don't think he used it much (if any) past that. Still, it did its job while he used it!