CTF, haven't yet decided on a name for my 458 yet. Piss Elm King, maybe....all the good trees are taken.

I might call my replica "Spruce King"... reminds me of devil's club and tangled willows ... so ...
either "Lord Club" or "Willow Blaster."









STAR TREK premiered on this date in 1966, September 8, 1966,
when the .458 WinMag was only 10 years old,
and 5 years before Dirty Harry (1971) used a Winchester M70 .458 WinMag as his sniper rifle of choice for overwatch duty.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Dirty_Harry



Model 70 in 458 Win Mag - this is the screen used rifle carried and fired by Clint Eastwood in the film Dirty Harry. © Copyright MPM2008 - 2009 Licensed to www.imfdb.org

Is that a pushfeed with the Pre-'64 African rear sight?
Or is that a bona fide Pre-'64?
The pushfeed M70 .458 I bought new in 1984 had a fold-down rear sight. XTR model variant, IIRC.
When did Winchester stop using that rear sight on the .458 WinMags?
Wisner made my copies of it.
Weatherby uses a copy of it on their DGR-style rifles.
Some research is needed.
Or sumbuddy who know?

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Looking back at your Nikon shotgun scope, RIP, I was surprised at the minuscule field of view at 3x of 25.2 feet. I realise this is partly a consequence of the long eye relief but suspect it has something to do with their overdoing the field stop, as they did with my 4-16x42 Monarch, which only has about 25ft FoV at 4x, despite a large ocular. Yes, that one has a good long eye relief, too, (about 90mm) but when I was a boy scopes were expected to have FoVs closer to 30 feet at 4x.

A good thing about long eye relief often forgotten, of course, is that it gives you increased 'field of view' outside the scope, something of enormous importance when hunting dangerous game like buffalo, which are often found in herds.

Whether the new scopes really can stand a lot of recoil will remain to be seen (or not seen since lifetime warranties are a great way to bury the duds) but since long-time scope makers like Leupold have taken decades to get it right, I will be surprised if a camera specialist can solve the image-movement susceptibility overnight.

quote:

Is that a pushfeed with the Pre-'64 African rear sight?
Or is that a bona fide Pre-'64?
The pushfeed M70 .458 I bought new in 1984 had a fold-down rear sight. XTR model variant, IIRC.
When did Winchester stop using that rear sight on the .458 WinMags?
Wisner made my copies of it.
Weatherby uses a copy of it on their DGR-style rifles.
Some research is needed.
Or sumbuddy who know?

RIP,

Yes the sights were the same as the pre-64 Africans. The stock was the same too. This per Roger Rule's fine book the Riflemans Rifle.

I have a 1965 m70 Magnum in .338 that has the same sights, recoil pad and stock shape of the pre-64 Alaskan but has the "lovely" post-64 pressed checkering. It's a shooter too regardless of what people think about them.

quote:

Whether the new scopes really can stand a lot of recoil will remain to be seen (or not seen since lifetime warranties are a great way to bury the duds) but since long-time scope makers like Leupold have taken decades to get it right, I will be surprised if a camera specialist can solve the image-movement susceptibility overnight.

well, as an individual even my lifelong anecdotes won't prove something.
However, I believe that Nikon really has gotten it right. The first bit of anecdotal support is in this very forum. In the "Terminals" thread Michael McCourrey reported on the problems he was having with scopes on all of his big bore testing. He sent back boxes full of Leupolds that did nothold up. That statement was not hyperbole. He was able to solve his scope problem by switching to Nikons. He has not needed to send back one Nikon up to now.

My own stumbling into the Nikon line came from watching the prices of my old Leupold favorite 2.5-8 continue to rise. The Nikons, like the Monarch 2-8 Compact, appeared to fill the gap. Nice glass, nice size, nice balance, good 4" eye-relief. They already had a good rep a decade ago. However, finding out that Nikon had scopes with constant 5" eye-relief really caught my attention as I was playing with loads over 6000 ft-lbs. The Nikons have held strong and now sit on most of our rifles, from 270 to 500. I've had scopes from various brands fail over the past 35 years on rifles with 'normal' recoil, like 270's. I can't say that those were, or were not, the result of poor mounting, etc. I'm just a self-taught hunter, not a gunsmith. But I am a happy Nikon owner.

My only "complaint" on the Nikons is the difficulty in getting good mounts on the CZ 550 magnums that will hold the relatively short mounting space 4.73" of the long-eye-relief Nikons. CZ does make such a mount, but Beretta does not market them in the US. Rugers are easy to mount because they offer a reverse front mount, and Ruger mounts are as solid as mounts get.

Cougarz,

Thanks for that bit of history. I meant to get out the Roger Rule book, will do.

I am convinced of the quality and ruggedness of the affordable Nikon scopes, ditto 416Tanzan.

I dug into my parts stash and put these together. A tale of two Nikons and two Whitworths:









Mounting the 1.5-4.5x20mm UCC Shotgun/rifle scope any lower is impossible due to the ocular bell blocking the working of the bolt handle.
Medium QRW must be used.
Low QRW rings are usable with the tiny ocular bell of the Leupold 2.5x20mm Ultralight.

The High Weaver 4x4 rings barely allow the large objective bell to clear the barrel,
and the extension ring itself,
with the 3-9x42.5mm Slughunter.
Whew!
Can't go any lower.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Looking back at your Nikon shotgun scope, RIP, I was surprised at the minuscule field of view at 3x of 25.2 feet. I realise this is partly a consequence of the long eye relief but suspect it has something to do with their overdoing the field stop, as they did with my 4-16x42 Monarch, which only has about 25ft FoV at 4x, despite a large ocular. Yes, that one has a good long eye relief, too, (about 90mm) but when I was a boy scopes were expected to have FoVs closer to 30 feet at 4x.

A good thing about long eye relief often forgotten, of course, is that it gives you increased 'field of view' outside the scope, something of enormous importance when hunting dangerous game like buffalo, which are often found in herds.

Whether the new scopes really can stand a lot of recoil will remain to be seen (or not seen since lifetime warranties are a great way to bury the duds) but since long-time scope makers like Leupold have taken decades to get it right, I will be surprised if a camera specialist can solve the image-movement susceptibility overnight.

I would say Leupold got it ok. Better than Burris was. I would say Leupold scopes are serviceable. That's about the best I would give them. Kinda high dollar for what ya get.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Model 70 in 458 Win Mag - this is the screen used rifle carried and fired by Clint Eastwood in the film Dirty Harry. © Copyright MPM2008 - 2009 Licensed to www.imfdb.org

Is that a pushfeed with the Pre-'64 African rear sight?
Or is that a bona fide Pre-'64?
The pushfeed M70 .458 I bought new in 1984 had a fold-down rear sight. XTR model variant, IIRC.
When did Winchester stop using that rear sight on the .458 WinMags?
Wisner made my copies of it.
Weatherby uses a copy of it on their DGR-style rifles.
Some research is needed.
Or sumbuddy who know?

The M70 Supergrades my mate and I bought about 1970-71 had a rear sight with no elevation adjustment, just windage....at least I am 99% sure of that.

There also drilled and tapped for the Lyman receiver sight and the stock exposed the two screw holes.

Supergrade was how the 458s came back then, there was no "standard grade".

Of course given they were purchased in Australia they might have been 1969 rifles.

Mike,

Your 1970-71 African was newer than Dirty Harry's, eh?
Rule's THE RIFLEMAN's RIFLE has a picture at the bottom of page 316 with caption:

"A 1964 Model 70 African, serial number 700,484, .458 Win. Magnum.The front and rear sights did not change initially from the Pre-64. Courtesy Olin Corporation."

There's more details in this book than I can shake a stick at.

Page 67:
Table 3-1, Winchester Model 70 Catalog Symbol Numbers:
African .458 WIN. MAG.
Symbol No.: G7055CN
Barrel: 25" C-2
Rear Sight: Win. Express Micro ("Micro" as in micrometer adjustable)
Year Introduced: 1956
Last Year Offered: 1963

Page 76:
"In 1956, the .458 Win. Magnum was introduced. Boxed and tagged as a Super Grade, it was priced much higher and marketed as the African (Photo 3-5) ...

($295.00 in 1956, when the .375 H&H Super Grade was $184.65)

Page 79:
A glorious 9-inch wide color photo (Photo 3-5) with caption:
"The Super Grade sub-style: African, serial number 381,346, .458 Win. Magnum. Author's collection. Photo: Ed Prentiss"

Page 96:
"... In November, 1955, the .458 Win. Magnum was developed by Winchester for the Model 70 rifle. First shipments of these were made in May, 1956. Loaded with both 500 and 510 grain bullets, these rifles became the first commercial American combination suitable for the World's most dangerous game ..."

Page 99:

International shipments of .458 Win. Magnum rifles from 1955-63: Only 227

U.S. domestic shipments of .458 Win. Magnum rifles from 1955-63: total of 999
1955-57: 671
1958-60: 210
1961-63: 118

Grand total: 1226


Page 111, Table 4-17.
Standard Barrel Bore Specifications
.458 Win. Magnum
No. of Grooves: 6
Twist: 1 in 14"
Bore Diameter: .452"
Rifling Diameter: .458"
Groove Width: .1400"

I have more than a dozen more book marks and I am highlighting the word "African" as I go ...

AND, I have a 1950-year/vintage (by SN) Winchester M70 (formerly a .30-06)
that it appears will be successfully re-barreled with a CZ .458 WinMag take-off barrel.
That should be a shop mule par excellence for some .458 WinMag-A (3.4")
load testing.




For the .458 Longclaw Whitworth with Nikon, I cannot use the usual flip-up lense caps,
since the ocular bell clearance of the bolt handle is so tight with QRW mediums.
I was shocked to find this ANDERSON GUN SHOP memento in my parts stash.
Is this one of James Watts ideas?:



For the .458 WinMag Woodie Whitworth with Nikon Slughunter scope in ye olde Weaver 4x4 rings,
I have another bit of history, a Star Trek promotional token that is 1.5" in diameter,
it makes a great pocket tool for tightening slotted Weaver nuts:



Whiskey, cigars, and guns, the fountain of youth:





Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Did M70 458s always have cut chequering, even during the 'waffle-iron' years after 1964? I am no expert on the M70s but remember lots of ads from the old days. White-line recoil pads were one fad that was very late-'60s. The attached ad from 1963 shows sights and stock shape similar to the Dirty Harry rifle but the barrel looks a little shorter on Clint's, which sports what looks to me like a Whelen target sling, presumably aftermarket. I would guess about 1967, if they still did hand chequering on the African then.

https://fr.pinterest.com/pin/A...KRpVpdULJPhK5z3y5ls/

Regarding the Nikon scope, the weeny FoV is even stranger if the ocular lens, and not the housing, is indeed 42.5mm across. Assuming the usual fat rubber eye piece (another factor in tunnel vision) around that, it's no wonder high mounts are needed.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

Did M70 458s always have cut chequering, even during the 'waffle-iron' years after 1964? I am no expert on the M70s but remember lots of ads from the old days. White-line recoil pads were one fad that was very late-'60s. The attached ad from 1963 shows sights and stock shape similar to the Dirty Harry rifle but the barrel looks a little shorter on Clint's, which sports what looks to me like a Whelen target sling, presumably aftermarket. I would guess about 1967, if they

The two 1970 48s my mate and I ad were very deep wrap around cut checkering. The forend tip was not the angled type like other M70s but round as was the forend itself. The XTR M70 in all the other calibres (including 375) were very Wby like.

Back then copying Wby was big. Later in the 70s (and still so today) Sako copied the tapered type bolt shroud of a Mark V. A Sako Deluxe looked very much like a Mark V.

The 375s were the same stock as a 270 but with the bigger barrel, two exposed cross bolts and open sights. There priced midway between a 270 and the 458. The 458 was just a little cheaper than the Mark V 300 Deluxe. Of course this was in Australian gun shops, might have been different in America. The 458 Super Grades when compared to other rifles were a fair bit higher price than the current Super Grades.

The push feed actions on the 458s were the slickest actions I have ever felt.

As best as I can remember the Pre 64 in 264 was called The Westerner and the 375 The Alaskan (and maybe also the 338) and the 458 The African.

After the Pre 64 a change to the M70 (and Rem 700) was I think in 1968 and that was the slot cut in the right locking lug to act as a bolt guide and it was very effective.

One thing many shooters are not aware of is the Pre 64 was a shorter action by maybe a 1/4" or 1/3rd" and this was supposedly for the 375 and not having to cut out the front of the action.



The two 458s had Super Grade on the floor plate.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Did M70 458s always have cut chequering, even during the 'waffle-iron' years after 1964? I am no expert on the M70s but remember lots of ads from the old days. White-line recoil pads were one fad that was very late-'60s. The attached ad from 1963 shows sights and stock shape similar to the Dirty Harry rifle but the barrel looks a little shorter on Clint's, which sports what looks to me like a Whelen target sling, presumably aftermarket. I would guess about 1967, if they still did hand chequering on the African then.

https://fr.pinterest.com/pin/A...KRpVpdULJPhK5z3y5ls/

Thanks for that link to the M70 African related material. It will take some time to digest all that.

Regarding the Nikon scope, the weeny FoV is even stranger if the ocular lens, and not the housing, is indeed 42.5mm across.

The objective bell is 50mm in diameter. The lens must be truly 42.5mm.

Assuming the usual fat rubber eye piece (another factor in tunnel vision) around that, it's no wonder high mounts are needed.

Mediums would work regarding the ocular bell. It is just the huge objective bell that requires the high rings.

And I do not mind the field-of-view or the eye-relief one way or the other, nor the high rings. I am adaptable.

sambarman338,

We will have to read some more of Roger Rule to sort out the African checkering post-1963 ...

Here is my next .458 WinMag-A, at the parts stage, it is a 1950-M70 that is a .300 WinMag currently.
Looking like it will end up with a 25" barrel,
like the Pre-'64 African.



Some balled-up aluminum foil covered by epoxy bedding might be used to fill that hollow, Tupperware forend.
Steel all thread behind the barrel lug.
How's that for an "metal bedding block?"


Rather than depend only on Mike's recollections from Oz,
we need to get some more pictures posted here of the Pre-'64 and Post-'63 Winchester M70 Africans ...

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Excerpts for book review purposes.
Book review:
Good'ol GunDigestBooks.

This one takes us up to 2007 publishing date:



"Model 70 African Super Grade .458 Magnum" on page 115, would be a Pre-'64.
".458 African (Built in Super-Grade only, 1956-1963)
Exc. 7000, V.G. 5250, Good 4000, Fair 2750, Poor 1350" in 2007 USD:



One version of the Post-'63 "Model 70 African" is shown on page 124, "Chambered for the .458 Win. Magnum cartridge this rifle is fitted with 22" barrel with open sights. Magazine capacity is 3 rounds. Weight is about 8.5 lbs. Built from 1964 to 1971.
Exc. 650, V.G. 500, Good 350, Fair 250, Poor 150" in USD 2007:



Though the blurb above says the barrel was 22", picture does not look it.
The Pre-'64 African had a 25" barrel.
Roger Rule's book states the Post-'63 Africans came with 22" barrels, at least through 1981,
and the first ones had the original African sights,
the ones formerly used, starting in 1956, on the .458 WinMag only.
Here is the Dirty Harry African again: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Dirty_Harry

From Roger Rule, an excerpt for book review purposes, the earliest production Post-'63 African, the model of 1964:


Book review: It's a gold mine!
By Roger C. Rule, 1982:



Details on changes in the cross bolts, bedding, checkering, finishes, sights, barrel lengths, etc., up to 1982, may be mined there.
Here is Roger Rules own rifle, made in 1956,
first year for this rifle:



BTW, those early Africans weighed 9.0 lbs with 25" barrels.


Callahan is presented the .458 Magnum Model 70 by The Chief (John Larch), which is said capable of killing an elephant. For someone like Callahan, this is an obvious choice since "overkill" is pretty much his middle name.


Callahan fires the Model 70 at the Scorpio killer. This gun's maximum capacity is 3+1 yet he manages to fire off six shots in total without reloading.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Did M70 458s always have cut chequering, even during the 'waffle-iron' years after 1964? I am no expert on the M70s but remember lots of ads from the old days. White-line recoil pads were one fad that was very late-'60s. The attached ad from 1963 shows sights and stock shape similar to the Dirty Harry rifle but the barrel looks a little shorter on Clint's, which sports what looks to me like a Whelen target sling, presumably aftermarket. I would guess about 1967, if they still did hand chequering on the African then.

https://fr.pinterest.com/pin/A...KRpVpdULJPhK5z3y5ls/

Regarding the Nikon scope, the weeny FoV is even stranger if the ocular lens, and not the housing, is indeed 42.5mm across. Assuming the usual fat rubber eye piece (another factor in tunnel vision) around that, it's no wonder high mounts are needed.

Yes the post-64 .458 Africans had cut checkering. I guess even Winchester couldn't bring themselves to press checker their most expensive non custom m70!

Ron,

That second rifle down with the angled forend tip is not a 458 or a 375. The 375 XTR had the same cross bolts as the 458s but as for the rest it was like the pictured rifle but heavy barrel.

1966: To resolve stock-cracking issues, in the Post-'64 stocks, countersunk, nickel-plated rivets, filled with bakelite plugs, one for standard calibers and two for magnums, were installed. About mid 1966, "the .375 and .458, which had previously been supplied with two rivets, were changed to over-sized threaded cross-bolts. As an extra measure for these two chamberings, epoxy bedding was added to the forward recoil lug mounted on the barrel. And recoil pads were switched from the thin red webbed Pre-64 version to a heavier one with a new waffle design, still red." (Rule, p.318).

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Rule pp. 321-322 (remember this only goes through 1981, from the 1982 book):

"The African. This rifle followed a different course, with respect to stocking, than the Standard style. Offered from 1964-1981 with hand checkering (contracted with an outside agent), the stock received very little change during the entire period. The plugged-rivets to cross-bolts improvement, in 1966 (with glass bedding for the barrel recoil lug), and the few recoil pad variations noted, were nearly the only departures from the Pre-64. For the final 1981 African there was one other recoil pad change, from a black waffle to a solid red version similar to that used on the earliest Pre-64s. And, for a short time (1970-1975) the black forend tip was upgraded to genuine ebony.

"Although most metal parts followed the trends of other styles, the trigger guard and floorplate assembly were blued steel. And like the earlier Africans, the sights took a special course: the front bead ramp and hood were the same as that used on the Pre-64. The initial rear variation was the same as that for the late Pre-64 Africans; in 1968 this changed to a less sophisticated version that was ultimately adapted to other styles as part of the 1978 XTR improvements.

"The only chambering for the African was .458 Win. Magnum with a barrel length of 22". Its nominal weight was 8-1/2 pounds."

I must now assume that all post-1963 Africans had 22" barrels, at least through 1981, maybe even through 1984 and beyond.
But at some point they stopped calling the M70 .458 WinMag "African."
Then came the Classics from Connecticut ...

When I bought my first .458 WinMag M70 in 1984,
it had the same fold-down XTR rear sight common to many Winchester rifles.
It seems that rear sight got it's start on the African in 1968.
It had a sling swivel stud base on the barrel.
It had the over-sized, exposed, double crossbolts.
The barrel was 22" long.
It had OK walnut and cut checkering.
It was a lovely rifle.
If it hadn't been a pushfeed I would have kept it.

I think Dirty Harry was using a circa 1967 African.
Looks like it had cross-bolts instead of bakelite-plugged rivets, definitely started by 1967.
It had the original African rear sight that got replaced in 1968 with the XTR-style fold-down.
And the barrel was a 22-incher, not a 25-incher.
A pushfeed!

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
RIP
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
1966: To resolve stock-cracking issues, in the Post-'64 stocks, countersunk, nickel-plated rivets, filled with bakelite plugs, one for standard calibers and two for magnums, were installed. About mid 1966, "the .375 and .458, which had previously been supplied with two rivets, were changed to over-sized threaded cross-bolts. As an extra measure for these two chamberings, epoxy bedding was added to the forward recoil lug mounted on the barrel. And recoil pads were switched from the thin red webbed Pre-64 version to a heavier one with a new waffle design, still red." (Rule, p.318).

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Ron,

I don't think that second rifle, with the angled forend tip came out until at least 1970.

As best I can remember that second rifle would be a 300 or 338 Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If it hadn't been a pushfeed I would have kept it.

Being a push feed is why you should have kept it

Mike,
I think you are right,
about the erroneous picture,
not about the pushfeed issue.

The GunDigestBook screwed up the picture in this case, it is not a 22"-barreled African:



Yep, looks like a .300 WinMag, maybe a "Model 70 Deluxe" built from 1964 to 1971, 24" barrel for the magnums?
Hey, it's a pushfeed, so who cares, eh?

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Six Tenants of Bolt-Action Operation

Begin bolt manipulation as soon as the rifle fires
Keep the butt of the rifle on your shoulder
Keep eyes on the target
Cycle the bolt fully and with authority
Regain shooting grip immediately after closing the bolt
Place sights back on target as soon as possible

by Richard Mann

https://www.outdoorhub.com/how...g-bolt-action-rifle/

Rip,
These folks have several .460 bullet choices including a 450 long flat nose.
http://www.beartoothbullets.co....htm?category=23&id=

http://www.accuratemolds.com/b...bullet=46-500L-D.png

Maybe something like this . His molds are very nice. And you can get about any thing you can think up.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip,
These folks have several .460 bullet choices including a 450 long flat nose.
http://www.beartoothbullets.co....htm?category=23&id=

450-grainer:



Well!
I might rather go up to their 525-grainer:



They designed the 525-grainer to work through a Marlin 45-70, say this is the longest and widest nose possible for that.

The 450-grainer has a longer nose, but ogive looks like it would jump further to engage.

One of those might be used to push the envelope of accuracy in the .458 WinMag.
Thanks for the tip.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/b...bullet=46-500L-D.png

Maybe something like this . His molds are very nice. And you can get about any thing you can think up.

"Bullet Notes:
This design is intended to fill a very deep chamber throat. It will not fit all chambers!"

CTF,

Great! I would rather be able to cast my own.
I gotta order that mould.
The .458 Longclaw is the .458 Lott with a superimposed .458 WinMag throat,
a .458 WinMag rechambered to .458 Lott with no barrel setback.
It effectively shortens the .458 WinMag throat by about 0.3" and sets it on top of the brass that is 0.3" longer.
It will be more forgiving with cast bullets,
but require more filler.

Maybe better with cast bullets than the unadulterated .458 WinMag.

So, CTF, take heart in your ownership of a CZ .458 WinMag re-chambered to .458 Lott.
It is not a total mutilation.
I have one too.
I am going to use mine as is, call it a .458 Longclaw 3.8".
Ditto the Warthog, but will call it the .458 Longclaw 3.6".
The follies of the past, re-weighed to correct any errors of memory:





There is a Pachmayr Decelerator pad under that slip-on Pachmayr pad, double recoil pad and proper LOP for me.
Hopefully will reduce gun headache caused by 400-grainers at +2500 fps, and 500-grainers at +2300 fps.
It is, afterall, a .458 Lott with almost a .458 WinMag throat.
Might allow the .458 Lott 3.6" more than a measley 60 fps advantage over the .458 WinMag 3.4" loaded to same pressure.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Six Tenants of Bolt-Action Operation

Begin bolt manipulation as soon as the rifle fires
Keep the butt of the rifle on your shoulder
Keep eyes on the target
Cycle the bolt fully and with authority
Regain shooting grip immediately after closing the bolt
Place sights back on target as soon as possible

by Richard Mann

https://www.outdoorhub.com/how...g-bolt-action-rifle/

Could I add the following?

Make sure the bolt doesn't hit you in the face, however unlikely your body angle might be in a tight spot.

(Short stocks, long actions and Mauser 66 rifles should be approached with caution.)

Rip; That guy can make a mold to your exact specs. Also he can do 2 different boolits in 1 mold .
I'm in the process of figuring out the exact specs for 2 boolits for my 480 Ruger. 4 gang mold 2 different bullet designs . Alas, I can't decide on the weights I want. I was thinking 360 for one and 420 for the other. But I'm also strongly considering the 48-380V for one. And a 440 gr with a .4" meplat. 4 cavity mold 2 boolits of each design per cast.
Decisions, decisions.
As to the 458 . I hadn't really looked at the designs in this caliber and so I'm thinking Ill wait on your outcomes. That mold I linked does look like a dandy. @ 1300 fps it would get a lot done . even 1200 fps. Easy shooting too.
One of the great things about the Accurate Molds is their affordability. Say a guy wanted to try a none lube grooved boolit for pc and a conventional lubed boolit but both with the same nose and body design forward of the case mouth. He can do that right up.

I have this one from Accurate Molds for the 470 NE, a gas-checked .477"-size/530-grainer:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/b...bullet=48-530E-D.png

Excellent service, high-class operation.

I started to order the Accurate Mold bullet suggested by CTF, but noticed my Hornady gas checks may not work:

"Gas check notes:
Hornady 45 caliber GCs measure .460" outside diameter (OSD), with a bell mouth of about .461". They are intended for use with both rifle and handgun. If you are going to size your rifle bullets to .460" or larger they will probably not crimp on. The rifle sized Gator gas check is recommended. It takes the same shank size but is extra thick for a larger OSD."

Need Gator gas checks. I don't have any for .460-sizing, will look into that.
Might need another sizing die too.

I still have other work to do first:

See if the .459"-size/409-grain Berry's Hard Cast will shoot accurately at 1330 fps, duplicates 1873 45-70 Carbine load.
30.0 grains of AA-5744 hoped to do that.
26.0 grains >>> 1184 fps: excellent accuracy
36.0 grains >>> 1578 fps: keyholer on the verge of making round holes.

And I have a 500-grain "Government" mould from Lyman, 4 lube grooves, RN, plain base, .459"-size.
1100 fps would duplicate 1873 45-70 Rifle load.

A 475-grain Parker-Hale with 7 lube grooves, plain base, .459"-size needs a try.

And I still need to try those 485-grain, RN-gas-checked,Lyman-mould bullets with less than 44.0 grains of AA-5744.
That was a near-1800-fps, wild keyholer in the .458 WinMag ...

So I won't be going up from .459 to .460 sizer and gas-checker,
until I exhaust my current .459 supplies.
I have a lot of stuff on hand already, that I haven't tried in the .458 WinMag.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

RIP,

Sorry all for the thread drift but RIP started it.

Be careful trying to come up with an exact date using design features on Winchester M70's. They were notorious for using existing parts until we're depleted even though they had come up with new ideas.

So, their rifles can sometimes be a combination of old and newer parts. That's why the serial number is the only reliable way to determine the exact date.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
So, their rifles can sometimes be a combination of old and newer parts. That's why the serial number is the only reliable way to determine the exact date.

True, but if I were a betting man, I'd still plump for 1967.

Roger that RIP. I will be looking forward to your reports!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I have this one from Accurate Molds for the 470 NE, a gas-checked .477"-size/530-grainer:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/b...bullet=48-530E-D.png

Excellent service, high-class operation.

I started to order the Accurate Mold bullet suggested by CTF, but noticed my Hornady gas checks may not work:

"Gas check notes:
Hornady 45 caliber GCs measure .460" outside diameter (OSD), with a bell mouth of about .461". They are intended for use with both rifle and handgun. If you are going to size your rifle bullets to .460" or larger they will probably not crimp on. The rifle sized Gator gas check is recommended. It takes the same shank size but is extra thick for a larger OSD."

Need Gator gas checks. I don't have any for .460-sizing, will look into that.
Might need another sizing die too.

I still have other work to do first:

See if the .459"-size/409-grain Berry's Hard Cast will shoot accurately at 1330 fps, duplicates 1873 45-70 Carbine load.
30.0 grains of AA-5744 hoped to do that.
26.0 grains >>> 1184 fps: excellent accuracy
36.0 grains >>> 1578 fps: keyholer on the verge of making round holes.

And I have a 500-grain "Government" mould from Lyman, 4 lube grooves, RN, plain base, .459"-size.
1100 fps would duplicate 1873 45-70 Rifle load.

A 475-grain Parker-Hale with 7 lube grooves, plain base, .459"-size needs a try.

And I still need to try those 485-grain, RN-gas-checked,Lyman-mould bullets with less than 44.0 grains of AA-5744.
That was a near-1800-fps, wild keyholer in the .458 WinMag ...

So I won't be going up from .459 to .460 sizer and gas-checker,
until I exhaust my current .459 supplies.
I have a lot of stuff on hand already, that I haven't tried in the .458 WinMag.

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
So, their rifles can sometimes be a combination of old and newer parts. That's why the serial number is the only reliable way to determine the exact date.

True, but if I were a betting man, I'd still plump for 1967.

Plump for 1967, sure as Trump for 2016.
The look of the '67 African is like the look of '66 Mustang tail lights.


http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_70

According to Roger C. Rule's rules:

Possibly in late 1966, but definitely in 1967:

1. African Micrometric Adjustable rear sight, 1967 was the last full year they used it.
2. Oversize, exposed cross-bolts (instead of bakelite-plugged rivets), 1967 was the first full year they used those.
3. 22" Barrel: 1964 to 1981 and beyond.

Of course I cannot tell for sure from the low quality photo of Dirty Harry's .458 WinMag, but I am "plumping for" 1967 African,
having those three characteristics.

Enlarged photo above clearly shows pushfeed bolt.
You can almost read the serial number on the right front receiver.

Gonna have to watch the movie again,
and maybe spot the serial number in a close-up shot.


http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Dirty_Harry
Callahan takes cover while holding the Model 70.


Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Update for you fella's:
I shot the 485 today at 200 yards. Used the closest thing to a bench I have where I need it; a 1986 F250 off the hood. Blankets for my hand holding forearm and elbows. Shot 5 from a clean bore. 3 sit in 1.75 and first shot sits 2.5 low right from the center of that group. The last was a called pull 2 inches low. I saw the muzzle move at break out of my 2.5 X scope.
So as expected; I will take these out hunting deer this year. Recoil level with the 485 is up noticeably over the 433's with the same powder charge. No idea on speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I have tried not sizing the brass, did not work, and I now use my full length sizer and almost hit the shell holder with the die. So partially sized. I bell the case with a Lee die meant for the task. Load either 39 grains of 4759 or 51 AA2015, tuft of Dacron, put a light crimp on with a Lee Factory crimp die. This closes the bell back up and squeezes the bullet a bit. I have no slippage in the magazine when fired and as mentioned my accuracy is good. I think a .459 or .460 sized and well lubed bullet will shoot in a 458 WM just fine. If yours doesn't, change bullets and soften up your alloy. Lyman #2 and down to BHN 10-12 works fine at about 1800 FPS. I have not chron-ed and don't intend to. Just going off of several loading books for speeds. I have no leading. None. I wiped the bore clean of lube, carbon after each session. I shoot in 100 + degrees and down to 10 degrees. It just works. I have my 433 grain whitetail load sighted dead on at 200 yards and can hold 2-5" over sticks at that range for quite a few shots. I have not shot my 485 gain at range yet. I expect it to do just fine. I'll let you know.

Jolly good show, Fury01.

"Blessed is he that has an accurate cast bullet load for his four-five-eight, no matter the bullet weight or velocity."
(Ancient proverb.)

Bullets and rifles do vary. My mileage may vary.

I am now going to load the 409-grain plain-base and the 485-grain gas-checked bullets with 30.0 grains of AA-5744
and see if they make nice round holes in the target, hopefully continuing to avoid harming the chronograph.





Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jolly good show, Fury01.

"Blessed is he that has an accurate cast bullet load for his four-five-eight, no matter the bullet weight or velocity."
(Ancient proverb.)

Bullets and rifles do vary. My mileage may vary.

I am now going to load the 409-grain plain-base and the 485-grain gas-checked bullets with 30.0 grains of AA-5744
and see if they make nice round holes in the target, hopefully continuing to avoid harming the chronograph.





Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Hell yeah man! That's an ad. Speaks directly to the person who would buy that rifle. Good stuff! Got any with David Ommanney?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Plump for 1967, sure as Trump for 2016.

Ha ha ... yes ... except if
Trump were a rifle he'd have waffle-iron chequering

Love those old ad's. They always had a sense of the adventures you were going to have - if you bought their rifle of course!

Hornady s reloading manual published in 1973

25 inch barrel winchester model 70




note the load for the 500 grain bullet was 2.100 fps across several powders and 2,150 for 3 of then powders available at the time using an off the shelf rifle

not winchesters data

makes the urban legend smell a bit like last weeks fish





now we load up 71.5 gn,s of aa 2230 zero compression to get => velocities on even shorter tubes so

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jolly good show, Fury01.


Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Lurker pop-up...
Dollar data for that $310 rifle:
https://www.measuringworth.com...310&year_result=2017

Wookie76,

$310 in 1963, up from $295 in 1956. Outrageous!
In the 1956 ad they had that financing program, $12.45 down payment (4.22%)
and pay off the balance in 20 months, if you survived your African Safari on a shoestring.
Lessee, 15 bucks a month for 20 mos is 300 bucks ...

Stradling,

Thanks for the historical perspective with that 1973 data from Hornady.
That sure looks familiar, I might have that one in storage, buried too deep to get to at the moment.
But my old notecard from the 80s is handy.
I found this in the box of 60 pieces of once-fired R-P .458 WinMag brass,
that I am currently working through for the second firing:



The high-arched trajectory and my failure to find an accurate load over 2400 fps with 400-grainers, led me down the path trodden.

And now I am back to lusting after .458/400-grainers at well over 2400 fps,
with new powders and bullets,
Oh-my-oh-my!
The old .458 WinMag is new again.


Here is what Barnes was saying, circa 1992,
in their first little manual (Oh-my-oh-my, how they have grown!):





I had exceeded their max by one grain, but it was good in my rifle (23.69" barrel, Warthog pre-Lottization). Good with any 400-grainer,
though my rifle was a bit slower than what Barnes data claimed.
No barrel length specified by Barnes!

Here is some experimental data from today,
33 loaded rounds and two dummies,
cast bullets,
to be tested when the rain lets up:





That R-P brass is over 30 years old and still shines even though never tumbled.
It was last fired with 75.0 grains of IMR-4895 and 400-grain bullets.
Now it is coming out of retirement for cast bullet loads.
Getting old is a beach!

Rip
.