quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ah ha! I see!

I want to keep the standard SAAMI chambers, for the two standard cartridges,
and put the cartridges in any action length that will accept both,
either 3.6" or 3.8".

But you want to quibble over easily changing the throats?
That creates a new cartridge, which steals the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.'s "Longclaw" thunder.
You want to make a Non-SAAMI .458 Lott "Longclaw," eh?

I've got a couple of those, and one of them is getting turned back into a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.,
with a 3.8" box length.
Standard SAAMI chambers only.

I will keep the 3.6"-boxed .458 Lott "Longclaw" as a conversation piece, a reminder of what not to do to a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag., maybe use it as a gunshow exhibit to educate kids.
And besides it is so ugly it is cute.




Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

We had Somchem and Somchem powders only and that brought about a plethora of 458's based mostly on 404 and 416 cases, long ones short ones and inbetween.
The search was one for a 458 Win alternative that could achieve the magical 2200 and if it could be done in a standard Mauser action the better

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
A long throat on a Lott, or any other chambering, is extremely easy to do and does NOT make it a different chambering. Specifying throat dimensions is a COMMON part of building a rifle and tweaking a factory rig. When I measured the throat on my Lott and found .375” freebore with the 500 TTSX and .500” with the DGS, I asked Wayne a AHR if that was odd. He said it was common.



OK, I stand corrected.
As long as that "special throating" is longer and/or wider than the SAAMI or CIP "MINIMUMS" for the chambering,
it passes. Make it shorter or narrower and you have violated the standard, and that would be a "new cartridge"
that should be so designated as a "special" on the rifle's chamber identification.
For example, ".458 Winchester Magnum Special" for a tight-throated rifle meant for cast-bullet accuracy.
That is just common sense, basic safety.

Sometimes a picture best illustrates a concept for quibblers like yourself. This is the most favorable situation for 458 Win Mag vs the Lott. The round on the left has a 2.49” case (Win Mag) and the round on the right has a 2.79” long case (Lott). Both have a 500 grain TSX seated. The one on the left needed to be seated to the fourth groove (your numbering) in order to seat straight, as I have come to expect from TSXs in straight walled cases.

Sheep Crap or just BS?
You can seat the 500-grain TSX on the 5th groove and "straight" in the .458 Win.Mag.

The one one the right needed to be seated at the third groove to fit the magazine. The one on the left has a COL of 3.665” so it’s iffy if a M-70 could not take this round without a new magazine box. The round on the right has a COL of just under 3.85”, easily fitting my CZ magazine.

Some more BS here. If the Lott brass is 2.79" in length, and the TSX is seated on the third groove, it is going to be longer than 3.840".
That is not functional in the CZ 550 Magnum box, which is not 2.85" long inside.
It is closer to 2.84".
When I use 2.775"-long Lott brass and seat as deeply as possible on the third groove of the TSX,
COL is 3.840" and it hangs up in the box, rubs the front wall of the box if you force it in.
This would be a malfunction waiting to happen.
You need more than 0.000" clearance of COL by the box length to function.



So the Lott wins again. More case capacity, no fussing with a minimally seated bullet, etc. With conventionally shaped bullets and lighter weight bullets the Lott spanks the Winny even more.

Not so fast! You are wrong again. That is baaaa-aaa-d poop.
I am not a sheep that will allow the wool to be pulled over my eyes just because you say so!
The longest COL usable in the CZ .458 Lott, due to box length and groove locations on the TSX is crimping on the second groove.
That is 3.730" COL with 2.775" brass, and 3.755" COL with the maximum allowable 2.800" brass length.
The .458 WinMag brass at 2.495" can have the same bullet crimped on the fifth groove, and crimped STRAIGHT,
for 3.780" COL, or 3.785" with the maximum allowable 2.500" brass length.

Note that the minimum nose projection of the 500-gr TSX is about 0.840", seated on first groove.
If you add that to a 2.800" case, you get 3.640" for a COL, and that violates the SAAMI COL for the .458 Lott.
You need to trim the brass down to make it fit, like with Hornady's factory .458 Lott ammo.
With the .458 WinMag at spec trim-to-length of 2.490", the COL with first-groove seating is 3.330",
no violation of SAAMI 3.340" maximum COL.
Right at 3.340" if maximum brass length of 2.500" is used.
A very minor, inconsequential "win" for the .458 Win.Mag. vs the .458 Lott.
Not nearly as big a win as the longer COL and better throat conformation derived from using the 500-gr TSX
in a .458 Win.Mag. CZ 550 Magnum, instead of the Johnnie-come-lately .458 Lott.


So the moral here is beginning of time level “hat”. More case capacity equals more velocity, and we need a long magazine box and proper throating to take full advantage of case capacity with really long bullets.....that actually me be before the dawn of time “hat.”

You are going to have to design some new bullets and resort to seating to longer COL than the CZ box allows
if you ever hope to beat the .458 Win.Mag. with the .458 Lott. It cannot be done with the 500-gr TSX.
That is reality, no "hat" required, just a brain.

Oh yeah, I am pretty sure someone who chooses a 458 Win over a Lott and then claims the Winny has better performance is morally inferior, but since I have only found ONE guy who tries to say that, it may be more of an insanity issue than a moral failing............

Sir, I may resemble that remark, but it is just a resemblance that only denial of reality, i.e., ignorance, allows.
You are wrong. It is just the truth, that is the only "morality" involved here.
Insanity? What is wrong with a little crazy? We all must be crazy about something to enjoy life in this crazy world.
Crazy is good.

In seriousness, good discussion. It shows how it’s pointless to take an M-70 in 458 Win, rechamber it to Lott, and use 500 grain TSXs without also installing one of Kevin Wyatt’s 3.85” M-70 boxes and one of his modified extractors. If a shooter is unwilling to do that he would gain nothing over the Wnny. CZ 550 Safaris are a different matter as are the big Mk-5s, big Rugers, etc.

I have one of those boxes or something like it purchased from Brownells', extra long and windowed.
"Winchester 70 Extended Magazine Box" part# 100-000-568 on the plastic bag label.
It is a tight 3.840" length inside the box.
Just like the CZ 550 Magnum.
3.840" COL would be too long to work in that one too.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP bud, you gotta quit sniffing the Cool Aid man !

The whole "seeking" for the holy grail in 458 cals in the good old RSA sprung from one little overlooked issue and that issue alone! :

The lack of suitable powders to achieve the mythical 2200 fps on a 500 gr 458 bullet !

The aim of the exercise was always this 2200 fps ! Whether there is really merit in it or not ?

No matter how much you now tout the “modern 458 Win” fact is the original rifle offerings and their original factory loads did not achieve the claimed paper velocities they were sold at !

Ollie Coltman formerly of Rhodesia later to settle in the Northern Transvaal chrono'd randomly selected Winchester Western ammo from various batches and not a single load achieved the advertised velocities. Most barely broke 2000 fps and many were below ! ( After Rhodesia Ollie moved to the Northern Transvaal where he was the go to guy for magna porting . He modified my 44 Ruger Redhhawk for me )

The anecdotal reports from various sources about WW's red and yellow packs of ammo with the big red W, velocities on the box were not wrong ! There was a lot of urban myth bandied around in gun shops about how poorly the 458 Win did, most were a gross exaggeration but so was the claimed velocities in the ads. ( and if you believe this not to be true PMP ran into the lack of velocity problem with their PMP Super ammo to the extent that they dropped the bullet weight to 480 gr to bring the velocity up)

Now nowhere does it say your 458 cant kill at 2000 fps but for the time in place and the "rules of the bush " at the time the grail was 2200 fps on a 500 gr bullet, not a 480 gr bullet not a 400 gr bullet , the lack of SD of the latter two was sharply criticized.

The 458 was exclusively used as DG rifle or back up for DG. It was not seen as a kudu gun or a wildebeest gun or some rifle to shoot mice with ( ammo was simply to expensive and to scarce to waste on bullshit )


We had Somchem and Somchem powders only and that brought about a plethora of 458's based mostly on 404 and 416 cases, long ones short ones and inbetween.
The search was one for a 458 Win alternative that could achieve the magical 2200 and if it could be done in a standard Mauser action the better

Every dog and their mate was on a roll to get their cartridge immortalized, there were even duplications of the same thing bearing different names.

The 3 inch 458 was simply the logical end result of where one could go with a 375 type cylindrical case ! Then also likely the limit because the charge mass for the 458 reached the pressure limit for the case ! The 458 in 3 inch then also reached the limit in how long a bullet bearing surface this genre of cartridge could bear given this pressure limit.

Mono's without grooves or ribs or whatever you wish to call them very quickly added to the pressure limit so 500 gr was the absolute limit.

Trying to add bullet mass meant the velocity had to be dropped and any benefit to the long case was lost.

Ted Whitfield in the KNP was turning 458 bullets for their use ( they were singularly likely the biggest institutional users of the 458 Win in the RSA) These bullets were very long a produced a whole whack of added pressure ! PMP in Pretoria later took this bullet and dropped the weight to 480 grain to compensate for the loss in velocity brought about by having to load to pressure.

The overriding issue was always pressure and not just theoretical pressure real time cases sticking and primers popping pressure.

Loads that would work fine on the highveld and then produce pressure issues in the low veld.

With advice from Johan Laubscher at Somchem ( formerly as he now works and resides in the USA ) we went duplex on our loads in an attempt to get the right burn profile .



The cartridge on the right Prof Koos Badenhorst's 3 inch ( I believe he is now very old and is not doing well ) Koos worked and lived in Pietersburg where met him when I was a medical officer in the government hospital



On the left Jurie Majoor's Short Majoor. That short Majoor was a 2200 fps cartridge but very prone to pressure using Somchem powder.

The pre "480 gr" 500 gr PMP bullet showing the problem of the long brass bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

We had Somchem and Somchem powders only and that brought about a plethora of 458's based mostly on 404 and 416 cases, long ones short ones and inbetween.
The search was one for a 458 Win alternative that could achieve the magical 2200 and if it could be done in a standard Mauser action the better

Alf,

Firstly, I know Ron is having some fun with the 458 thread. However, lots of people reading the thread won't know that.

Mike:I am dead serious about all this, and having fun too. Truth, Justice, and the .458 Winchester Magnum Way!.

You highlight powder. Ron has to bear in mind that there are people who shoot and don't live in the great US of A and great it is, if not for the US of A I would be typing this Japanese.

I knew that mention of South African reprobates,
with no mention of the powder issues, would draw Alf out to add some insight to the subject of the .458.
Yep, 2200 fps with a 500-grainer, that is what the .458 Win.Mag. does easily nowadays, short or long COL.

As a side note, the Hodgdon powders as you know are made in Australia but are cheaper and much more available in American than Australia. Gun law bullshit.

That is a pity!

But even if you have the powders the 458 Lott/450 Ackley just do the 2100 plus easier.

Easy is easy for the .458 WinMag too. Like pregnant is pregnant. No half-way about it.

Having a 458 Win with 3.6" magazine and seating bullets way out is a pain if someone wants to shoot say 500 grain Hornadys and crimp them. Even if they don't want to crimp the loaded ammo will look like shit.

Not a pain, and look nifty. CH4D Cantool if bullets don't have the correct cannelure location, and don't forget the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

at back in the thread D'Arcy Echols said he had made dozens of Legends in 458 Lott but not one in 458 Winchester and because no one had requested one.

Now THAT IS FUNNY!

Blokes that have bought Echols Legend rifles have been well down the rifle road. After spend in that much money .... and for a fibreglass stock gun ... they don't want to stuff about with 458 Win with bullets seated way out or worry about powder selection etc. and etc.

Sheep.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Well you caint say Ole Rip don't show his cards alongside his money and say "What'ca got?"
Well done sir.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The problem with the 458Win is that it uses a skinny little .511" case body (Lott too).

MAGAZINE CAPACITY, MAGAZINE CAPACITY, MAGAZINE CAPACITY.

Now think about a 458AccRel in a CZ Safari, seating long (like a 338Norma, 6.5Creed, 458Ripper-claw). Or short, Rigby-size caseheads. You do the math.

7 - 1 = 6

I can see the advantages of a big, relatively heavy CZ when the energies are over 6000ft#.

Picture of sub-9-pound CZ .458 Win.Mag.-to-be here, the SUPER-LONG-THROATED, factory-chambered .458 Lott CZ is a different one, in a black stock, but it weighs the same as this one:



Come to think of it,
if for some strange reason one simply must have a CZ .458 Lott,
one is better off buying a CZ .458 Win.Mag. and having it re-chambered to .458 Lott,
with a short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott reamer,
than to buy a current factory .458 Lott straight from CZ.
With the re-chamber you get a .458 Lott with a slightly extended leade, a Longclaw Lott.
With the CZ factory job you get a .458 Lott with a leade that stretches 0.300" longer from breech bolt face than a .458 Win.Mag. does.

The reasonable aim here would be 500grain at 2400 or 450 grain at 2525.

In the .458 Win.Mag. we shall see ...I have not even warmed up yet, all low pressure work so far.
I will put the pedal to the metal eventually.

Incidentally, I'm toying with those levels for my 500. Something comfy. I'm not sure I want to always have to shoot 450gn at 2654fps for impala and wildebeest. Kawabunga, buffalo Bob.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
A long throat on a Lott, or any other chambering, is extremely easy to do and does NOT make it a different chambering. Specifying throat dimensions is a COMMON part of building a rifle and tweaking a factory rig. When I measured the throat on my Lott and found .375” freebore with the 500 TTSX and .500” with the DGS, I asked Wayne a AHR if that was odd. He said it was common.



OK, I stand corrected.
As long as that "special throating" is longer and/or wider than the SAAMI or CIP "MINIMUMS" for the chambering,
it passes. Make it shorter or narrower and you have violated the standard, and that would be a "new cartridge"
that should be so designated as a "special" on the rifle's chamber identification.
For example, ".458 Winchester Magnum Special" for a tight-throated rifle meant for cast-bullet accuracy.
That is just common sense, basic safety.

Sometimes a picture best illustrates a concept for quibblers like yourself. This is the most favorable situation for 458 Win Mag vs the Lott. The round on the left has a 2.49” case (Win Mag) and the round on the right has a 2.79” long case (Lott). Both have a 500 grain TSX seated. The one on the left needed to be seated to the fourth groove (your numbering) in order to seat straight, as I have come to expect from TSXs in straight walled cases.

Sheep Crap or just BS?
You can seat the 500-grain TSX on the 5th groove and "straight" in the .458 Win.Mag.

The one one the right needed to be seated at the third groove to fit the magazine. The one on the left has a COL of 3.665” so it’s iffy if a M-70 could not take this round without a new magazine box. The round on the right has a COL of just under 3.85”, easily fitting my CZ magazine.

Some more BS here. If the Lott brass is 2.79" in length, and the TSX is seated on the third groove, it is going to be longer than 3.840".
That is not functional in the CZ 550 Magnum box, which is not 2.85" long inside.
It is closer to 2.84".
When I use 2.775"-long Lott brass and seat as deeply as possible on the third groove of the TSX,
COL is 3.840" and it hangs up in the box, rubs the front wall of the box if you force it in.
This would be a malfunction waiting to happen.
You need more than 0.000" clearance of COL by the box length to function.



So the Lott wins again. More case capacity, no fussing with a minimally seated bullet, etc. With conventionally shaped bullets and lighter weight bullets the Lott spanks the Winny even more.

Not so fast! You are wrong again. That is baaaa-aaa-d poop.
I am not a sheep that will allow the wool to be pulled over my eyes just because you say so!
The longest COL usable in the CZ .458 Lott, due to box length and groove locations on the TSX is crimping on the second groove.
That is 3.730" COL with 2.775" brass, and 3.755" COL with the maximum allowable 2.800" brass length.
The .458 WinMag brass at 2.495" can have the same bullet crimped on the fifth groove, and crimped STRAIGHT,
for 3.780" COL, or 3.785" with the maximum allowable 2.500" brass length.

Note that the minimum nose projection of the 500-gr TSX is about 0.840", seated on first groove.
If you add that to a 2.800" case, you get 3.640" for a COL, and that violates the SAAMI COL for the .458 Lott.
You need to trim the brass down to make it fit, like with Hornady's factory .458 Lott ammo.
With the .458 WinMag at spec trim-to-length of 2.490", the COL with first-groove seating is 3.330",
no violation of SAAMI 3.340" maximum COL.
Right at 3.340" if maximum brass length of 2.500" is used.
A very minor, inconsequential "win" for the .458 Win.Mag. vs the .458 Lott.
Not nearly as big a win as the longer COL and better throat conformation derived from using the 500-gr TSX
in a .458 Win.Mag. CZ 550 Magnum, instead of the Johnnie-come-lately .458 Lott.


So the moral here is beginning of time level “hat”. More case capacity equals more velocity, and we need a long magazine box and proper throating to take full advantage of case capacity with really long bullets.....that actually me be before the dawn of time “hat.”

You are going to have to design some new bullets and resort to seating to longer COL than the CZ box allows
if you ever hope to beat the .458 Win.Mag. with the .458 Lott. It cannot be done with the 500-gr TSX.
That is reality, no "hat" required, just a brain.

Oh yeah, I am pretty sure someone who chooses a 458 Win over a Lott and then claims the Winny has better performance is morally inferior, but since I have only found ONE guy who tries to say that, it may be more of an insanity issue than a moral failing............

Sir, I may resemble that remark, but it is just a resemblance that only denial of reality, i.e., ignorance, allows.
You are wrong. It is just the truth, that is the only "morality" involved here.
Insanity? What is wrong with a little crazy? We all must be crazy about something to enjoy life in this crazy world.
Crazy is good.

In seriousness, good discussion. It shows how it’s pointless to take an M-70 in 458 Win, rechamber it to Lott, and use 500 grain TSXs without also installing one of Kevin Wyatt’s 3.85” M-70 boxes and one of his modified extractors. If a shooter is unwilling to do that he would gain nothing over the Wnny. CZ 550 Safaris are a different matter as are the big Mk-5s, big Rugers, etc.

I have one of those boxes or something like it purchased from Brownells', extra long and windowed.
"Winchester 70 Extended Magazine Box" part# 100-000-568 on the plastic bag label.
It is a tight 3.840" length inside the box.
Just like the CZ 550 Magnum.
3.840" COL would be too long to work in that one too.

Some pics that show THE TRUTH:






Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I don’t think I don’t think I have ever seen anyone go to such lengths to claim the exception is the rule. Then again, when you start with a faulty premise all of your conclusions will be faulty—as you so aptly illustrate. You are simply not worth the effort........

quote:

The problem with the 458Win is that it uses a skinny little .511" case body (Lott too).

MAGAZINE CAPACITY, MAGAZINE CAPACITY, MAGAZINE CAPACITY.

Now think about a 458AccRel in a CZ Safari, seating long (like a 338Norma, 6.5Creed, 458Ripper-claw). Or short, Rigby-size caseheads. You do the math.

7 - 1 = 6

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I don’t think I don’t think I have ever seen anyone go to such lengths to claim the exception is the rule. Then again, when you start with a faulty premise all of your conclusions will be faulty—as you so aptly illustrate. You are simply not worth the effort........

Live and learn, INTJ.
Don't be a sore loser.
I derive no joy from crushing your argument.
I just like winning another one for THE FOUR-FIVE-EIGHT BROTHERHOOD, for THE MISSION.


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I don’t think I don’t think I have ever seen anyone go to such lengths to claim the exception is the rule. Then again, when you start with a faulty premise all of your conclusions will be faulty—as you so aptly illustrate. You are simply not worth the effort........

Live and learn, INTJ.
Don't be a sore loser.
I derive no joy from crushing your argument.
I just like winning another one for THE FOUR-FIVE-EIGHT BROTHERHOOD, for THE MISSION.


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip...

You misunderstand. You are making a foolish argument based on erroneous info and a false premise, and that argument has been repeatedly refuted. I say that as I close my CZ bolt on a 500 grain TSX round loaded to 4.100” COL, something you said isn’t doable in a CZ Lott. Crud, 3.84” clears my magazine, and you said 3.84” wouldn’t work.

Now if you were saying the 458 Win Mag is underrated and unfairly maligned, I would agree with that. But to say the 458 Win outperforms the 458 Lott is rubbish not to be taken seriously.

Perhaps that helps you better understand why I have lost interest in what you say. You are wrong and have been shown to be wrong, yet you persist with the fool’s idea anyway.

I just hope no one pays serious attention to you and gets hurt trying make a 458 Win run with a Lott........

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
RIP, this isn’t a new concept, shorten brass the enhance bullet seating in the constraints of the magazine. The 338 Norma is an example, despite the shortened case the bullet seats farther out and the ballistics equall the 338 Lapua.
This should not be difficult to under stand.

quote:

For a man of your age, I'd think you would appreciate a 500-grainer at an easy 2200 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

RIP, this isn’t a new concept, shorten brass the enhance bullet seating in the constraints of the magazine. The 338 Norma is an example, despite the shortened case the bullet seats farther out and the ballistics equall the 338 Lapua.
This should not be difficult to under stand.

No not at all !

The original 458 Win was not designed with this in mind !

The case was designed to be 63.5mm long with a COL of 84.8mm

The cartridge was originally offered with a 500 gr solid and a 510 gr Soft and nothing else !

The bullet had a cannelure set so that when the bullet was seated and crimped ( they were all crimped to prevent bullet extrusion under recoil ) it did not exceed the COL of 84.8mm !

This meant a fixed pre determined powder capacity limit and not this claimed larger capacity because of short seating of the bullet ! There is no where to go with this ! Unless of course you make shorter bullets which was and is still done !

This in essence was the 458's achilles heel and is stil to this day its limiting factor ! The majority of factory offerings currently in production in the USA from Federal, Winchester and Norma still do not break the 2200 fps barrier ! Some reach it most do not ! The 2040 fps number is the norm and the minute you go short on the barrel the velocity drops to below 2000 fps

Now reloaders can do as they please factories who are bound by conventions can not ! So after 61 years nothing has really changed. The majority of factory offerings bar 3 are exactly where they were 61 years ago !

Now this does not equate to the cartridge being less effective. a 500 gr bullet at 2000 fps will and does knock the snot out of anything that walks or crawls this earth !

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Heck yes I would choose a .458 Winchester Magnum! One with 3.6" box on a Model 70
and another with a 3.8" box on a Magnum Mauser 98.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .458 Win.Mag. Longclaw says to the .458 Lott:

"Bring it on."

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .458 Win.Mag. Longclaw says to the .458 Lott:

"Bring it on."

You need to add a couple hundred fps.

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
Why anyone would buy a 458 Win today ....excluding a particular rifle they might just love ... I have no idea.

Can any 458 Win promoter give me any reason ANY REASON ... why if you were getting a rifle made ... like an Echols Legend ...why you would choose a 458 Win over the 458 Lott? Really a simply question.