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I found that a cow moose was harder on the old 1980s Hornady .458/500-grRNSP than either Finn's softpoint test medium or an African lion. I could not speak as highly of it as he did, but the cow moose did die instantly, from the bullet fragments, one of which was an empty jacket. Interesting to read that Finn noted how squirrely the roundnose solids were, on both elephant skulls and in his test media. He later helped Jack Carter develop the flatnose solid, Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer. Table from above scanned from the 1984 magazine:   Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip . | |||
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I gotta go rake leaves, clean rifle, load ammo (not done with 400-grainers yet), eat turkey, go shootin', and give thanks for the .458 Winchester Magnum. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip . | |||
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thank you RIP for that article and making that thread still alive. | |||
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Im thinkin I,ve read all this stuff in magazines and books, but it took me 50 years, if I had just waited and read it all at once..The thread should be published, it would create WW3...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Apart from Saeed, RIP absolutely leads the parade when it comes to posting pictures. And as a bonus he puts up articles. Much appreciated. | |||
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So best I can tell after scanning this thread, and remembering all the articles from the past; the end of the matter is obvious. The 458 Win Mag is a morally inferior choice. Even though the ammo issues have been fixed for the last 4 or 5 decades, and it has reliably killed thousands of dangerous game animals, and it has been a common choice of PHs, and it matches the velocities of the 450 and 470 NEs which have a stellar reputation on DG; the 458 Win is still a poor choice. The morally superior choice is the 458 Lott and because the Lott adds another 100 fps, it is VASTLY superior to the 458 Win. Did I get all this right?  | |||
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No, you did not get it right  Simply, the Lott does the 2100 with ease, room to spare and with more powders. And of course it can do the 2100 with what amounts to backed off loads. I know this hard to believe but not all shooters live in America a land of all sorts of powders and brass.In Australia there is way more 375 brass than 458 brass and it is 100 times easier to make cases for the Lott from 375 than it is for the 458. In short, if you like a challenge then the 458 Win is better than the Lott or 450 Ackley. If you prefer maximum loads instead of backed off loads then the 458 Win is the answer. Apart from replicating the the450 and 470 Nitros etc. that 2100-2150 is also important for another reason and that is recoil ... and the simple fact is the 458 Lott/Ackley does it with ease and room to spare. Now I know RIP (and other desperates )will talk about seating bullets out in the 458 Win to an OAL of 3.6" and thus have a Lott. but what a fucking pain and a piece of shit to look at. What if you use 500 rain Hornadys and others and want to crimp your ammo?In addition seating the 458 Winchester to 3.6" OAL is completely negated if your action is limited to standard length. I could go on but RIP will already chastise me | |||
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Mike, I could seat my Lott to 3.8” in my CZ, so wouldn’t that overwhelm any 458 Win advantage? | |||
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That would have been my next stage and also a Mark V in 458 Lott/Ackley. A 458 Win with OAL of 3.8 would be real good and especially with 400 grain lead core bullets. | |||
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Maybe they could glue in the bullets? | |||
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When RIP returns from MIA I am very sure he will have a special glue. You simply can't keep a good man down. | |||
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Alf, Great post, much biltong to chew there. Pass me a Tusker.  As for a couple of miscreants' posts preceding ALF's, you have given me much material to work with in correcting your distortions and misconceptions. I'll get to it later, add to the page count here. But I got some other stuff to do right now, Mama always said I was a "busy baby." Here is a busy image:  Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip . | |||
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In the seemingly mad rush to generate quantity over quality I will contribute to the thread. Besides, I like Tusker.
So -- I claim that the 458 WM is an ineffective oribi, impala, and hartebeest gun at 200-300 yards, especially those folks that use irons instead of a 5"-eye-relief Slughunter or Inline. Oh, you can make the 458 work, but the same 350grain bullets aren't usually the best for buffalo, too.  +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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RIP, will shortly put you in your place. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475, Nice article in Dec. 2017 American Hunter, congrats on the .454 Casull "Lucy" mountain lion. I have decided to let some of the dotards of this thread go unchallenged. That sort of "quantity" is really not worth the depreciation in "quality." Some of them are my elders and I do not want to be accused of elder abuse. Besides, if you wrestle with a dotard, they usually spill their drool bucket on you. do·tard [ doh-terd] NOUN 1. a person, especially an old person, exhibiting a decline in mental faculties; a weak-minded or foolish old person. 2. doater. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dotard Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip . | |||
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The H322 is great with 400-grainers. AA-2230 is a little faster, but not as accurate. Adding a 1/8"-thick foam wad over the 80.0 grains of AA-2230 seems to have no effect, except preventing the 95% full load from moving inside the case. Such a trifle is meaningless. If I get some .458/400-grain HV bullets, I will resume with 80.0 grains of AA-2230 and work up to a 100% volumetric filling load, or pressure signs, whatever comes first. Likewise resume with 76.0 grains of H322 and work up with compressed loads. I have had only low-pressure loads so far. The rifle is still sighted dead-on at 100 yards with the 300-grain TTSX at 2640 fps, a fun load, great for deer hunting, and most accurate so far. If I get a 400-grain HV to do 2500 fps and 0.5 MOA for 3 shots, I will re-zero the rifle. Of course a 450-grain North Fork at 2400 fps and 0.5 MOA would be worth a re-zeroing too. Let the lighter and heavier bullets impact where they may. 450-grain North Forks are next. GSC makes a .458-cal/450-grain HV also ... Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip . | |||
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I am way late to this thread, but it isn’t really complicated. The 458 Win works great and the Lott adds another 100 fps and with that a little more flexibility in load development. I just don’t see what the argument is about...... | |||
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It is an Internet forum. Like the 270 Vs the 280 Remington etc. | |||
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Without getting into the discussion between the .458 WM/Lott comparisons, I've always wondered if the real reason Winchester made their .458 the length it is was because it's made to fit into the .30-06 length pre 64 model 70 action without alteration? Yes I know they also chambered the .375 H&H in it but since they likely also had in mind even in 1956 a family of short magnums ( .264, .300 & .338) that would be introduced later. No gun manufacturer ever dumps several new cartridges on the market at once. It also makes on wonder what they would do today with the new m70 classic's that fixed several limitations of the pre 64's, one being the action length? Food for thought. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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I wonder. RIP, were you born before or after the mid-mark of the last century? I landed on the watershed year. Anyway, for me the thread pre-sages a decision that I may face in 5-10 years. If one uses one rifle in a forest, and 6000ft#-muzzle-energy-and-up starts to feel excessive, then how does one downsize? Does one take a 458WM? Or does one grab a 416Ruger? Or does one go all the way down to a 375Ruger? (You can see that I value simple practicality and portability over nostalgia. We all make our choices.) I've assumed that the 416Ruger would get the nod, but I'll wait until the time arrives. And I will have the memories of this thread to help with the choices. The 458 isn't a bad caliber. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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That should keep them in line for a while. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Welcome to page 26.
Go back and look at the drawings of the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. throat superimposed on the SAAMI .458 Lott throat. You will see that you can WinMag-ize a .458 Lott by adding some leade to the Lott, simply by running a .458 WinMag reamer into the Lott. A .458 WinMag re-chambered to .458 Lott is similarly gifted. You can beat any .458 Lott load in a .458 WinMag, if the bullet is long enough. I have proven that some short, light bullets, and even cast bullets can be used with sub-MOA accuracy and good, gamefield velocity in a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. I just don't see how the .458 Lott is more flexible for load development, when you can load the .458 Win.Mag. to longer COL than you can a Lott, and you can certainly load the .458 Win.Mag. to shorter COL than you can a Lott.  Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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What if you use the 458 Win brass in the Lott? | |||
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Mike, Do you really need that explained to you? I think you are smart enough to figure that one out for yourself.  I do think Hornady used a trick out of the .458 Win.Mag. bag for their factory .458 Lott loads. Lo and behold, the factory ammo brass (.458 Lott) after firing and re-sizing once, is only 2.775" long. Hornady shortened the case to give the bullet a little longer jump, to keep pressures down. The Hornady handloading data for a .458 Lott shows 24" barrel attained only 2250 fps (500-grainers) with one powder: Win 748. TAC and H335 got 2200 fps. All other powders tested maxed out at 2150 fps or less. (see previous Ross Seyfried article on the .458 Lott). Most factory ammo ballistics on the package are a bit on the optimistic side, usually explained away by "tight barrel grooves" or "26" barrel" or longer. In most .458 Lott rifles Hornady factory ammo does a bit less than the 2300 fps that they claim on the package for 500-grain softs and solids, which I have found to be more like 2200 and 2250 fps respectively, in a 25" CZ-USA, factory-chambered .458 Lott. Guesstimate that at 2175 and 2225 fps respectively for a 24" barrel. Maybe the CZ barrel is loose, .459"-grooved? That great early reporting on the wonders of the .458 Lott was derived from early rifles reamed from .458 Win.Mag. to .458 Lott with no setback. They still had that long leade from the original .458 Win.mag. chamber. Probably same applies to .450 Ackley, etc., me-toos. They all rode on the coattails of the .458 Win.Mag. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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My Lott has more than enough lead to allow a magazine length 3.85" bullet seating depth with the 1.6" long Barnes 500 grain TSX. It has even more lead with a conventionally shaped bullet like the Hornady 500 grain DGS.
At best the 458 Win could EQUAL the Lott if the bullet is long enough and the magazine short enough. The longest bullet I have is the 500 grain TSX. They are about 1.6" long. In a 3.6" magazine box a 1.6" bullet leaves 2" for powder. In the Win Mag there is .5" of bullet in the case and in the Lott there is .8" of bullet inside the case. In this scenario velocities should be the same and each cartridge has adequate bullet grip. Now in a 3.85" magazine like with my CZ there is 2.25" for powder, and seating to magazine length will give the Win mag .25" of bullet in the case and the Lott .55". In this scenario the Win mag does NOT have enough bullet grip while the Lott is fine. The Win mag would need to be seated at 3.6" while the Lott could be seated to 3.85" and thus the Lott--having more powder, will produce a higher velocity. If we run the numbers with a more conventional length bullet, like the Hornady 500 grain DGX which is 1.375" long, the Winny can't even take full advantage of a 3.6" magazine while the Lott can. Let's take this further. A 45-70 vs a 458 Win in a 3.34" magazine, which is what the 458 Win was originally designed for. Using the 500 grain TSX, there is 1.74" of powder space available and the 45-70 has a 2.10" long case. The first groove on a 500 grain TSX is at .36" so it could be crimped there. So in a 3.34" magazine (Pre 64 M-70 "short" magnum" or a post 64 with the stupid magazine spacer not removed), the 45-70 should be able to equal the 458 Win Mag with a 500 grain TSX.
458 Win Mag velocities are indeed acceptable. Because the Lott has more case capacity it is able to achieve acceptable velocities with a wider range of powders, and can if desired exceed Win mag velocities at the same pressure levels. All that said, I can't imagine that someone else hasn't already pointed all this out in this thread. I think what likely bothers you, along with the old articles that trash the 458 Win, is how the data for a 458 Win is based off a 3.34" magazine box that few people will limit themselves to. That extra .26" x .45" of powder space is not insignificant in an underbore chambering like the 458 Win, so factory ammo and handloading data understates the 458 Win Mag's true potential. BTW, they do the same with with the Lott, also an underbore chambering, by limiting it to a 3.6" magazine. | |||
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A better drawing has been found than that hand-sketched one by Jack Lott, previously posted on this thread: (Nick Harvey, GUNS AUSTRALIA "The .458 Lott - A Whole Lotta Gun" October/December 2001, pp. 64-67.) 
Difference between the throats by SAAMI, measured simply as distance from breech bolt face: .458 Lott: The leade reduces to .458" in diameter at 3.0143" from the breech bolt face. .458 Winchester Magnum: The leade reduces to .458" in diameter at 3.1725" from the breech bolt face. That is a Whole Lotta Throat on the .458 Win.Mag. A SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. can be loaded longer than a SAAMI .458 Lott. Dang the torpedoes, full speed ahead! I cleaned that last line up a bit. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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I obviously spoke past you—magazine length is CRITICAL to understanding each cartridge’s potential. Throats are easy to change and thus not as limiting. The bottom line is the Lott will generate more velocity at similar pressure levels as the Win do to the Lott’s increased case capacity unless you maximize the Win and constrain the Lott. There is no more “ancient hat” than concept of increasing case capacity to increase velocity and it is silly to quibble and say otherwise. When both are throated properly with optimum length magazine boxes, the Lott has about 10% more powder capacity and in these very efficient underbore cases that seems to give the Lott another 100 fps over the Win. That isn’t anywhere near the 400 fps claimed in Cartridges of the Word, but more case capacity equals more velocity in all but carefully configured scenarios. | |||
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Ah ha! I see! I want to keep the standard SAAMI chambers, for the two standard cartridges, and put the cartridges in any action length that will accept both, either 3.6" or 3.8". But you want to quibble over easily changing the throats? That creates a new cartridge, which steals the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.'s "Longclaw" thunder. You want to make a Non-SAAMI .458 Lott "Longclaw," eh?  I've got a couple of those, and one of them is getting turned back into a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag., with a 3.8" box length. Standard SAAMI chambers only. I will keep the 3.6"-boxed .458 Lott "Longclaw" as a conversation piece, a reminder of what not to do to a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag., maybe use it as a gunshow exhibit to educate kids. And besides it is so ugly it is cute.  Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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RIP, has this figured out he has the spec’s, the facts. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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RIP, what if your rifle is chambered for the 458 Watts? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp, Flattery will get YOU nowhere, but keep it up. I am just trying not to be a sheep. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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Then I will be able to fire .458 Lott ammo in a pinch. That extra .050" of case length on the .450 Watts Magnum chamber gives it that sort of "flexibility" anyway. Some truly wild claims were made about the .450 Watts: "400 grain Barnes bullet, 2943 fps" "500 grain Barnes bullet, 2563 fps" according to Harvey B. Anderson, Sr., in a 1950 advertisement. "These loads give well over 7,000 lbs. muzzle energy. Pressures are at or below 50,000 lbs. per square inch, which is normal, with the bolt action." Harvey was a snake oil salesman and talented gunsmith. He was also landlord of James Watts. James Watts was the guy who invented almost everything, with half his brain tied behind his back. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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I understand that all 3 458 Lott, win mad and Watts could be fired in the Watts chamber. My question pertains to loading the Watts case and firing in this chamber, is there any gain to be made? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475, Thanks for your enhancement of THE MISSION of the Four-Five-Eight Brothers (page count). Probably many of the .450 Watts Magnum rifles (2.850" brass) out there are converted from .458 Win.Mag. factory rifles. They are indistinguishable ballistically from a .458 Lott made the same way with 50-thou-shorter brass. You just have to be sure not to pinch your case mouth by loading Watts brass into a .458 Lott chamber. I have never seen the ORIGINAL .450 Watts Magnum reamer drawing to look at the throat specs. I am beginning to wonder if Winchester copied the original Watts throat to come up with that wild, wide, long, leade-only-funnel throat. Only amateurs such as Watts and Anderson could come up with something so daring, eh? Maybe, maybe not. Well, it worked out well, however it happened, and it is better now than it used to be, and that is pretty dang good. The stated goal in development of the .458 Express (3") by those reprobates in South Africa: To re-chamber .458 Win.Mag. rifles of the BRNO and CZ ilk. The performance levels they got were no different than a .458 Win.Mag. LongCOL/Longclaw. Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness. Rip... | |||
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