quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

Have you been eating your vegetables?

When Ross left Wolfe it was like:
"Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building."

Rip
.

Always! and Ross, honestly, killed (with me) all the credibility he had achieved previously. In just one single piece...The article is just full of BS. Biased? no...just sheer stupidity.

At least he addresses one of the reasons to bash the .458WM at the very beginning...playing smartass perhaps?

I expected a good, down-to-earth, argument...but no, just a lot of unsupported hate.

Since that piece Ross wrote on the 458 was a response to, and an attack on, an article I had written I was informed by the management that Ross diatribe generated the most hate mail in the history of the magazine!

Phil,
Thanks for the insights.
You are my hero.
So is Ross.
But Ross is also my anti-hero.
(insert Ennio Morricone spaghetti western music here)

Rip
.

Lemmeeseeifahkenturnannutherpage:

Excellent uniformity on the .458/300-grain TTSX load with 71.0 grains of H4198. This will correct to an MV of 2641 fps:



Stay tuned for proof of BC = 0.236, close enough.

The first three shots on the chrono printout above:

Then the scope was adjusted and the 4th shot fired,
then the scope was adjusted and the 5th shot was fired.
I considered the scope zeroed after these two one-shot groups:

Now at 300 yards:

So the Nikon "Spot-On" program for the SlugHunter BDC-200 reticle ought to work,
and indeed it did.
I was less than 2" high at 300 yards by turning the power setting to 7X and selecting BDC circle #2 according to the handy field-reference chart.
The wind was not blowing too bad, no Kentucky Windage was applied:

Turn the power setting to 8X and select BDC circle #1 for 200-yard gong,
creeping Kentucky Windage:

There is copper in this crater:

A couple of 300-yard hits holding a little into the wind:

The Hornady 325-grain FTX with the same powder charge, 71.0 grains H4198, and COL of 3.300": About 2.0 MOA for 5 shots at 100 yards.

The Hornady 350-grain RNSP was not good at all at 3.100" COL: About 3.5 MOA for 5 shots at 100 yards.
I can't blame it all on wind.
Weather report said 10-15 MPH gusts out of the NE.
I waited for a lull now and then:

I will load the Hornady 350-grainer longer, use the CH4D Can-Tool.
And try H322 as well as H4198 for that, and the Barnes 350-grain TSX.
Chimera WinCzechster and her SlugHunter do not disappoint so far.

Rip
.

My .458 WinMag CZ 550 Magnum that was re-chambered to .458 Lott is going to have its barrel swapped,
for a .458 WinMag CZ 550 Magnum take-off barrel, from another rifle that got turned into a .338 Lop'wah Magnum wildcat.
The .458 WinMag Longclaw,
it might get a Shoemaker-style Picatinny rail sticking out of the forend tip,
buried in the barrel channel, under some epoxy.
Might need to attach a flashlight under the barrel,
or a laser.
Winter is coming.


Rip
.

Rip
.

RIP
I may have posted this before. The 350 TSX shoots well out of my Tupperware discount store blaster.

77.2 grains h4895 3.44 oal 2410fps (I know the velocity is slightly anemic) .87 group (3 shots at 100yd). I want to seat these out to 3.50 oal as I suspect it will tighten the groups up.

fyi this was a quick load dev. for a hog hunt this summer. The terminal effects were impressive.
JRN

Loaded up a few 350 tsx's. 3.50 oal, 77.3 gr h4895(bumped 1/10 of a grain since it was seated longer). Results - .852 3 shot group at 100yds. arguably the same as when seated at 3.44(see previous post).
JRN

jrn,

More good information, thanks.
H4895 no doubt will be better with heavier bullets.

To review your numbers:

With the 300-gr TSX you lengthened COL by 80-thou and cut group size from 2.62" to 0.792".

With the 350-gr TSX you lengthened COL by 60-thou (also increasing powder charge by 0.1 grain of H4895)
and had diminishing return on already good group from 0.87" to 0.852".

So, long enough is long enough, for the good-accuracy-bullet COL. An endpoint before running out of bullet.

But in a poor-accuracy situation, a fairly small COL lengthening improved accuracy greatly.

Did I get that right?

I am hoping that seating the 350-grain Hornady RNSP out by 65-thou more to 3.165" will show some improvement.
That is a good, tough bullet I hate to relegate to the short-throated 45-70 Govt.
I have a significant supply of "old stock" on that one.
I will load H4198 and H322 for some baseline velocity/charge graphing for the Hornady 350-grainer,
before going to the "X" bullets.

I have only two boxes (only 20 bullets per box) for each of the 3 different generations of 350-gr Barnes Xs:
X
X-Cannelured
TSX
The oldest "X" came in a 50-count box, but I have most of a box left of them.

Good point about adding more powder as COL is lengthened.
I need to pay attention to that too.

Rip
.

Rip
.

Same load, two chronograph checks:

ProChrono (Competition Electronics, Inc.)
57 degrees F, cloudy day, instrument looked at clouds (white plastic diffuser screens removed)
3-shot MV average = 2638 fps


Oehler 35P, 59 degrees F, sunny day, instrument looked at the orange plastic diffuser screens:
5-shot MV average = 2641 fps

No significant difference.
Both of these "low tech" devices are still good enough for my purposes.
I drag them both to the range for backup.
And keep that spare, fresh 9-volt battery that powers both.
I killed a ProChrono once with the plastic wad of a shotgun shell that went astray, at supersonic speed,
it veered down right into the front of the ProChrono.
Made a mess.
Might need to put up a shield for the ProChrono if testing sabot loads in the .458 WinMag.

Rip
.

RIP,
Yes, it looks like your numbers are correct in reviewing my numbers(a quick glance with rounded calculations in my head).

I'm thinking that the 2x7 leup might not be best for accuracy testing. I do have an unused leup mark IV straight 10x that would be perfect

Also, since the Savage is limited to 3.50 oal due to the magazine I may have to break out the Ruger No. 1 for the long for caliber bullets(just to see). (unfortunately, for carrying, the ruger feels like a pig balanced on the end of a shovel )

JRN

jrn,

The 10X Leupold might be good FOR THE MISSION.
Ditto the Ruger No.1 .458 WinMag.

Or single-shot load that Savage.
I'll be doing the same with the WinCzechster,
until that CZ .458 Lott gets re-barreled to .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.8".
I have moved that one ahead of the Rugersoli No.1 .458 WinMag with 28", full-octagon, straight-zero-taper, 1:18"-twist barrel.
That one will balance like a hippopotamus on the end of a shovel.

Rip
.

Yes the mission!

I'll have to keep the Leup 2x7 on for the next few weeks till I get past bear and deer rifle season. After that I'll need to get serious and have been toying with welding up a new mag as there is space to get to 3.60.

fyi - the savage was built just to see how 'cheap' it could be done. With a new donor savage 110 in 7mm mag with 50.00 rebate and er shaw 458 clearance barrel at 120.00, I have less than 500.00 into without optics. Amazingly, knock on wood, the savage Tupperware stock has withstood over 350+ varied 458 rounds.

fyi + - those CZs are pretty good. I have one in 375 H&H that will shoot MOA or under with most anything - even the blue box Feds and the Rem core loks. So not surprised with the results from your hybrid.

JRN

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Since that piece Ross wrote on the 458 was a response to, and an attack on, an article I had written I was informed by the management that Ross diatribe generated the most hate mail in the history of the magazine!

Phil, good choice of word "diatribe" to the point exactly!

At least Ross beat a record hands down...and single handed!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
jrn,

More good information, thanks.
H4895 no doubt will be better with heavier bullets.

To review your numbers:

With the 300-gr TSX you lengthened COL by 80-thou and cut group size from 2.62" to 0.792".

With the 350-gr TSX you lengthened COL by 60-thou (also increasing powder charge by 0.1 grain of H4895)
and had diminishing return on already good group from 0.87" to 0.852".

So, long enough is long enough, for the good-accuracy-bullet COL. An endpoint before running out of bullet.

But in a poor-accuracy situation, a fairly small COL lengthening improved accuracy greatly.

Did I get that right?

I am hoping that seating the 350-grain Hornady RNSP out by 65-thou more to 3.165" will show some improvement.
That is a good, tough bullet I hate to relegate to the short-throated 45-70 Govt.
I have a significant supply of "old stock" on that one.
I will load H4198 and H322 for some baseline velocity/charge graphing for the Hornady 350-grainer,
before going to the "X" bullets.

I have only two boxes (only 20 bullets per box) for each of the 3 different generations of 350-gr Barnes Xs:
X
X-Cannelured
TSX
The oldest "X" came in a 50-count box, but I have most of a box left of them.

Good point about adding more powder as COL is lengthened.
I need to pay attention to that too.

Rip
.

Rip, out of my "too purty" (according to Phil ) Wayne-build .458 (20") I've managed to only get an average of 2170fps with the Barnes 350 TSX under a load of 82.0gr of R12. Cartridge OAL is 3.349"

Is this velocity reduction in line with your barrel length? Or would you go a little bit higher on the charge?

I assume your CZ is a 25" job, right?

Gustavo,

Call it a "diatribe" or a "simple desultory philippic" you got that right in your initial reaction to Ross's "Defiance" article.
No substance to it.
Just Ross's pet peeve, and he was only shooting a moon as the door slammed behind him.

He really should be commended for handling the reveal of the .458 Lott testing. He was getting so much hate mail from the Lott lovers,
why not just piss off the WinMag lovers too, and be done with it?

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
(About his 20"-barreled .458 WinMag)
I've managed to only get an average of 2170fps with the Barnes 350 TSX under a load of 82.0gr of R12. Cartridge OAL is 3.349"

Your RL-12 load is slow.
Didn't they quit selling that powder?
You need a faster powder.

Your 20" barrel might be about 100 fps slower than a 24" barrel, at most, maybe less,
and the faster the powder you use, the less the difference with your short barrel.
You ought to try RL-7 or H4198, and see how close to 2400 fps you can get with the 350-grain TSX,
in your .458 WinMag Shortclaw 3.4".
About 68.0 grains of either RL-7 or H4198 is the maximum "book" charge for the Shortclaw loads,
work up from five grains below that, 1-grain increments, in your rifle.

My rifle will take more than 68.0 grains of H4198, I am pretty sure.
My groove diameter is .459".
With my 24-7/8" barrel,
71.0 grains of H4198 gave 5-yard chrono of 2498 fps with the 350-grain Hornady RNSP.
MV correction for that would be for BC = .189:
Add 23 fps,
MV = 2521 fps.
That was my starting load.
(Do as I recommend, not as I do, please.)
If your rifle is tighter, it might take less powder than mine.

I'll be checking H4198 and H322 with those above pictured 350-grainers, including the TSX.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo,

Call it a "diatribe" or a "simple desultory philippic" you got that right in your initial reaction to Ross's "Defiance" article.
No substance to it.
Just Ross's pet peeve, and he was only shooting a moon as the door slammed behind him.

He really should be commended for handling the reveal of the .458 Lott testing. He was getting so much hate mail from the Lott lovers,
why not just piss off the WinMag lovers too, and be done with it?

Your RL-12 load is slow.
Didn't they quit selling that powder?
You need a faster powder.

Your 20" barrel might be about 100 fps slower than a 24" barrel, at most, maybe less,
and the faster the powder you use, the less the difference with your short barrel.
You ought to try RL-7 or H4198, and see how close to 2400 fps you can get with the 350-grain TSX,
in your .458 WinMag Shortclaw 3.4".
About 68.0 grains of either RL-7 or H4198 is the maximum "book" charge for the Shortclaw loads,
work up from five grains below that, 1-grain increments, in your rifle.

My rifle will take more than 68.0 grains of H4198, I am pretty sure.
My groove diameter is .459".
With my 24-7/8" barrel,
71.0 grains of H4198 gave 5-yard chrono of 2498 fps with the 350-grain Hornady RNSP.
MV correction for that would be for BC = .189:
Add 23 fps,
MV = 2521 fps.
That was my starting load.
(Do as I recommend, not as I do, please.)

I'll be checking H4198 and H322 with those above pictured 350-grainers, including the TSX.

Rip
.

Fortunately enough, Ross is history now. What a shame

You are right, RL12 is gone but just happens I have handy 3 cans and since I got no other use for this powder it went to the .458

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, I have to get RL7 or H4198.

And to be honest, you made me to relax, 100 or less 100fps will do my day, despite Ross genius concepts!

By the way, same 82.0gr of RL12 under the 450 TSX did on average 2192 fps, while with the 500gr Hornady SP I got 2050 fps. No pressure signs, no sticky bolt, nothing at all to set off the fire alarm.

Not bad, even for Ross standards

In a 20" barrel this is excellent:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
By the way, same 82.0gr of RL12 under the 450 TSX did on average 2192 fps, while with the 500gr Hornady SP I got 2050 fps.

Compared to this:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
Wayne-build .458 (20") I've managed to only get an average of 2170fps with the Barnes 350 TSX under a load of 82.0gr of R12. Cartridge OAL is 3.349"

Use that RL-12 with the heavier bullets.

Yep,
I miss Ross at Wolfe.
Looking for him in The Double Gun Journal
makes me feel like I am puttin' on airs.
Just ain't the redneck way.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
In a 20" barrel this is excellent:

Use that RL-12 with the heavier bullets.


Rip
.

Will do Rip! you are some sort of .458WM Obi-Wan Kenobi

What's not OK about this?



Some things you just happen upon at Imgur ...
Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
What's not OK about this?



Some things you just happen upon at Imgur ...
Rip
.

Besides the nickel plated brass?

Didn't Jack Lott try something like that and write it up for Peterson's? If I remember it didn't work as well as planned.

RIP--

Is your enthusiasm here meaning that you are giving up on 450grains at 2654fps? (I am citing your 2010-ish safari load in 500Mbogo with .510" 450-grain GSC.)

So if you were facing Mr. Mbogo,
would you reach for an accurate 500 Mbogo, 450-grain at 2500-2650fps,
or an accurate 458 WM, 450gr at 2150?
(Monolithics penetrate deeper and create wider wound channels with more velocity, so the Woodleigh restrictions don't apply.)
Yes--most of the time it wouldn't make any difference.
But if you were alone, relying on yourself, which would you choose?
That is how some of us think.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Didn't Jack Lott try something like that and write it up for Peterson's? If I remember it didn't work as well as planned.

Phil, I have the piece, and to be honest, Jack never got to the lengths of Ross, not even close...indeed in several passages he speaks out very well of the .458 WM and most of his critics were about the bullets used, not the cartridge itself.

I think he was too smart to fell into the ego trap.

Jack was, after all, a real class act...unlike Ross...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Didn't Jack Lott try something like that and write it up for Peterson's? If I remember it didn't work as well as planned.

Phil,
I am keeping an eye peeled for Jack Lott articles on his decision
to go with a cartridge intermediate in length to the .458 WinMag and .450 Watts,
which he was well aware of.
Maybe I will come across is play with the Garand .458 WinMag?
We covered the Nemo AR-15 .458 WinMag early on cortesy of member stradling, IIRC.

Here is a link on the McCann Industries .458 WinMag Garand, apparently they made it work "pretty good," but it's now only a "collector's item":

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...-458-win-mag-garand/

I hope to find something on Harald Wolf's Mauser .458 WinMag Jungle Carbine also.
Written up in the defunct Hatari Times International,
that was the coolest piece he ever built.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Didn't Jack Lott try something like that and write it up for Peterson's? If I remember it didn't work as well as planned.

Phil, I have the piece, and to be honest, Jack never got to the lengths of Ross, not even close...indeed in several passages he speaks out very well of the .458 WM and most of his critics were about the bullets used, not the cartridge itself.

I think he was too smart to fell into the ego trap.

Jack was, after all, a real class act...unlike Ross...

Gustavo,
Are we talking about a Jack Lott .458 Garand?
You have the article?
Please PM me if you do, it will save me some time.
Thanks.
Rip
.

416Tanzan,

Thanks for supporting THE Mission.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
RIP--

Is your enthusiasm here meaning that you are giving up on 450grains at 2654fps? (I am citing your 2010-ish safari load in 500Mbogo with .510" 450-grain GSC.)

That 2654 fps was with only 105 grains of Benchmark.
I am going back up to 115 grains of Benchmark for 2835 fps with the 450-grain GSC HV.
That is a dual-purpose bullet, for PG and DG.
IMHO, A dedicated thick-skinned-DG bullet ought to be heavier, SD of at least 0.305 like the .375/300-grainer, well proven.

So if you were facing Mr. Mbogo,
would you reach for an accurate 500 Mbogo, 450-grain at 2500-2650fps,
or an accurate 458 WM, 450gr at 2150?

Why should I limit the .458 WinMag to only 2150 fps with a 450-grainer, or the 500 Mbogo to only 2650 fps with a 450-grainer?
They are both capable of about 200 fps more than your arbitrary limits with stated bullets.
See your reasoning immediately following.
The only reason I went with the 2654-fps 500 Mbogo load was that it shot 0.75-MOA 3-shot groups,
compared to 1.5-MOA 3-shot groups with the 2835 fps load with same bullet.
That accuracy difference would not have made a difference, as it turned out.
The first buffalo was at 75 yards.
The second buffalo was a stupid, hurried shot at 150 yards, when the spooked, running buffalo paused in a clearing.
My shooting sticks would have toppled off the side of the termite mound equally well with either load.
That's OK though. Taxidermy on a second buffalo from that trip would have been a bit much.

(Monolithics penetrate deeper and create wider wound channels with more velocity, so the Woodleigh restrictions don't apply.)

Yes--most of the time it wouldn't make any difference.

True, mainly it is a question of what is most practical overall.

But if you were alone, relying on yourself, which would you choose?
That is how some of us think.

What I would choose:

A rifle weighing about 10 pounds field ready and loaded.
.458, .475, or .510-caliber bullets:
450-grainer for .458-caliber bullet.
500-grainer for .475-caliber bullet.
570-grainer for .510-caliber bullet.
Velocity would be 2350 to 2450 fps.
I, as most hunters, would probably be most deadly with the .458.

Rip
.

Gustavo,

Since Photopucker ate your photos on this thread ...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...071088422#5071088422

... if you can email the photos to me, I will post them on Imgur,
and post them here,
for their redeeeming social value.

You might then be able to copy the links and put the missing photos back in your thread, if you wish.
Or just get signed up at www.imgur.com
free while it lasts.
Hope they don't pull a Photobucket-Photopucker.

Rip
.