And I got some Quality Cartridge, properly-headstamped brass for it, as well as some made from R-P 300 Rum brass cases.

I measured the water capacity:

The .458 B&M brass was originally spec-ed at 2.295" max length,
but it was found to cause problems with COL unless it was limitied to 2.240" brass length.
That is so the bullets don't stick out too far to load in the compact magazine.

At that length, the ACTUAL case capacity is precisely, to the nearest tenth of a grain, 95.0 grains of water.
That is not some algorithm generated case capacity.

R-P brand .458 WinMag brass is about the smallest capacity .458 WinMag brass you will find.
At the same time as the .458 B&M brass was checked, I checked the .458 WinMag R-P brass:

The .458 WinMag brass can be allowed to grow to 2.500" with no problems seating bullets for even a "Shortclaw" version of the .458 WinMag.

At that length, it has a greater capacity than the .458 B&M by 0.3 grains of water.
With magazine length to spare in the .458 WinMag,
there is case capacity to spare:
Each 0.1-inch of increased COL in the .458 WinMag adds another 4.16 grains of water capacity to the
net case capacity,
compared to net when bullets are seated as deeply as required in the .458 B&M.

So, functionally, real-worldly, the .458 WinMag has a slightly bigger case capacity than the .458 B&M.
If the .458 B&M could go to 2.295" brass length, it would beat the .458 WinMag by 2 grains of water.
But that is not how the hype worked out in reality.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
About the .458 B&M, I got one:

Have you hunted with it?
The idea of the B&M was to equal 458 WinMag ballistics in a little run-about rifle.

quote:

functionally, real-worldly, the .458 WinMag has a slightly bigger case capacity than the .458 B&M.

My real-worldly needs more than 2% capacity difference,
5 or 10% is needed for a functional difference when hunting. Otherwise I consider the rounds essentially the same.

Dear 416Tanzan,



To me, the .458 B&M is a toy. I have played with it, but have not hunted with it.
It is not quite as good as a .458 WinMag.
I am no midget or weakling who cannot deal with a 10-pound, field-ready rifle with a preferred barrel length longer than the 19.75" length on my .458 B&M.
I asked for a 21"-22" barrel on it, but somehow the smith at SSK ended up chopping it to less than 20 inches!

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

functionally, real-worldly, the .458 WinMag has a slightly bigger case capacity than the .458 B&M.

My real-worldly needs more than 2% capacity difference,
5 or 10% is needed for a functional difference when hunting. Otherwise I consider the rounds essentially the same.

Dear Ol' 416Tanzan,
Aren't you the picker of fly poop out of the pepper.
If you want the .458 WinMag to trounce the .458 B&M by 5% to 10% of case capacity, then you do not even have to load it to 3.6" COL.
Leave it 3.4" and it will beat the 3.0" B&M by virtue of the throat differences and the usually longer barrel than the midget rifle.
Just add more powder to the .458 WinMag than the .458 B&M can handle,
whatever the COL or barrel length.
Rip
.

With the CEB Talon tip installed, the COL was 3.015"!

quote:

If you want the .458 WinMag to trounce the .458 B&M by 5% to 10% of case capacity, then you do not even have to load it to 3.6" COL.
Leave it 3.4" and it will beat the 3.0" B&M by virtue of the throat differences and the usually longer barrel than the midget rifle.

I'm not sure that you read me right.
For trouncing, I would want the 460 VanHorn.
The 458B&M is for functional, ballistic equivalency in a little rifle.

PS: I'm guessing that those tipped Raptors don't fit in the B&M. Yes?
Personally, I like tipped raptors for use 100-300 yards on "other game".

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

If you want the .458 WinMag to trounce the .458 B&M by 5% to 10% of case capacity, then you do not even have to load it to 3.6" COL.
Leave it 3.4" and it will beat the 3.0" B&M by virtue of the throat differences and the usually longer barrel than the midget rifle.

I'm not sure that you read me right.
For trouncing, I would want the 460 VanHorn.

The properly configured .458 WinMag equals 460 Van Horn ballistics.

The 458B&M is for functional, ballistic equivalency in a little rifle.

Functional ballistic inferiority in a 1-pound lighter, 5 inches shorter, muzzle-light/butt-heavy rifle.

PS: I'm guessing that those tipped Raptors don't fit in the B&M. Yes?

It's been so long, I do not recall, but they are longer than 3.0 inches.
Some short actions they will work in, some they will not, depending on the make.

Personally, I like tipped raptors for use 100-300 yards on "other game".

I like the Barnes .458/300-grain TTSX better.
71 grains of H4198 in my .458 WinMag with the 300-grain TTSX at 3.390" COL
puts the .458 B&M loads above to shame.

The WinCzechster .458 WinMag with 24-7/8" barrel AND scope bases included weighs 8#2oz.
The naked .458 B&M with 19.75" barrel and no scope bases weighs 7#1oz.
Less than a pound difference between the two.
Gustavo's Ruger Hawkeye .458 WinMag with a heavier contour (No. 5 Sporter) 20" barrel weighs 8#0oz.
Less than a pound more than the midget-actioned rifle.
I think Gustavo can handle this OK:





Rip
.

quote:

For trouncing, I would want the 460 VanHorn.

The properly configured .458 WinMag equals 460 Van Horn ballistics.

Well, we have a difference here. I would trust the 25% greater case capacity of the VanHorn in a Ruger Hawkeye. That's just me.

But I like your passion in trying to extract energy from a load beyond its primary design.

It turns out that my wife's 270 stabilizes the 180gn Woodleigh, so she may have an elk load in the US after her 375 crosses the Atlantic. It will depend on accuracy, as always.

Well, the 460 Van Horn is only doing .458 Lott ballistics in a 3.4" box.
The .458 WinMag can do more than a .458 Lott if loaded to the same length and pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Apparently the Ruger M77 MkII is easily opened up to 3.6" magazine box length.
Just like a standard "long" action Winchester M70 is easily converted to the "magnum" action length.

Dave Scovill detailed it in his "Spotting Scope" of the Jan-Feb 2004 RIFLE #211.
Apparently the Ruger RSM "magnum" .375 H&H box magazine was available from Brownell's.
Very little work was required to open up the magazine well (all rearward) of the M77 MkII.
Then the bolt stop/ejector is shortened.
That is all!
The ejection port of the action is long enough to eject loaded .375 H&H cartridges, after the ejector/bolt stop work.
No other cutting required, none on the outside of the action.
The only visible external change to the rifle was the new .375 H&H barrel of the same contour as the .338 WinMag barrel it replaced.



Rip
.

I'd rather have the more powerful 7-shooter that is only 1#13oz heavier than the 4-shooter:






Rip
.

Weather is expected to be good tomorrow.
I will load tonight.
Here comes that most interesting Harald Wolf creation ...

Harald Wolf:

"... I will deal with the .458 Win. Mag. in detail in a future issue of Hatari Times."

I wonder if he ever did?

Rip
.

Gustavo has a Jungle Carbine.
Harald Wolf opined that 20" was the right barrel length for a Jungle Carbine,
after he built one with a 22" barrel.
Vines!

Rip
.

only five pages to go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4YrCFz0Kfc

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gustavo has a Jungle Carbine.
Harald Wolf opined that 20" was the right barrel length for a Jungle Carbine,
after he built one with a 22" barrel.
Vines!

Rip
.

Good Lord! I wasn't sure until now! never thought I would find out the truth

I suspect Harald was mind reading me.

22"...why isn't it a rifle on its own right?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Harald Wolf:

"... I will deal with the .458 Win. Mag. in detail in a future issue of Hatari Times."

I wonder if he ever did?

Rip
.

First time I read Harald's ramblings on the mighty .458WM, indeed a gift RIP made to us all.

As some can guess, down here getting a Military Mauser is no big-deal, but I went with Ruger in order to avoid opening up the bolt and rails.

Besides the obvious, I like the Ruger Hawkeye action with the frame-mounted 3-pos safety and integral scope mount...and my specs called for a real SS CRF action, and as far as I can tell, no other manufacturer can provide it and being affordable did not hurt either.

Only drawback is you have to give up 2 cartridges in the magazine, when compared to the venerable CZ...but to be honest I can live with the Ruger the way it is.

quote:

Harald Wolf opined that 20" was the right barrel length for a Jungle Carbine,
after he built one with a 22" barrel.
Vines!

Rip

Rip, so 20" is OK for a WinMag but only a "toy" is a B&M"?

I might find out with my 22" 500 Nyati if I ever get into some thick stuff on a mountain. As you know, most of TZ doesn't have vine problems.

Dear Ol' 416Tanzan,

I like 23" barrels and 25" barrels.
Just call me "odd."
To me, 23" is a carbine.
To me, 25" is a RIFLE!
I will call Chimera WinCzechster my "Jungle Rifle."

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Harald Wolf:

"... I will deal with the .458 Win. Mag. in detail in a future issue of Hatari Times."

I wonder if he ever did?

Rip
.

First time I read Harald's ramblings on the mighty .458WM, indeed a gift RIP made to us all.

I'll look through what back issues I have for any further .458 WinMag poop.
Poor Harald let'er go after he hurt his back, IIRC. But I never got all the HTI issues I subscribed to before it went TU.
Hope he got back to building drillings and jungle carbines with that Ferlach training of his.

As some can guess, down here getting a Military Mauser is no big-deal, but I went with Ruger in order to avoid opening up the bolt and rails.

I have a Modelo Agentino .338-06, which I am now tempted to turn into a .458 WinMag Jungle Carbine.
I wonder if a Mitchell's Mausers laminated K98 stock could be used?
Parts is parts.

Besides the obvious, I like the Ruger Hawkeye action with the frame-mounted 3-pos safety and integral scope mount...and my specs called for a real SS CRF action, and as far as I can tell, no other manufacturer can provide it and being affordable did not hurt either.

MRC PH fits requirements: Stainless, CRF, integral scope bases, and would make a great .458 WinMag LongClaw 3.8".

Only drawback is you have to give up 2 cartridges in the magazine, when compared to the venerable CZ...but to be honest I can live with the Ruger the way it is.

For sure! I own more Rugers than Winchesters or CZs. Like them all.

And now I realize that a Ruger M77 MkII can be easily lengthened for .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.6",
Ditto the M77 Hawkeye.

Rip
.

The scope is still zeroed dead-on at 100 yards with the 300-grain TTSX at 2640 fps (71.0 grains of H4198).
With unchanged scope settings, this is where it puts the 350-grainers at 50 yards with the most accurate load tried today:



I could go faster with both bullets.
No pressure signs at all.
Thank the .458 WinMag throat,
and the .459"-grooved barrel.
Not an impediment to accuracy with the right handloads.

Rip
.

Beautiful day today, sunny and 48 degrees F with wind right into my face.
Chimera WinCzechster enjoyed a little autumn sunbathing after her workout at the range today:



I adore the matte-grey accents of the J-B Weld under the scope bases coordinating so nicely
with the matte stainless trigger guard, front action screw, and sling studs.


Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


MRC PH fits requirements: Stainless, CRF, integral scope bases, and would make a great .458 WinMag LongClaw 3.8".


Rip
.

Rip, in all honesty, MRC was the first rifle I looked in full detail, but feedback on it was almost non-existent...or not so good. Thus, the custom job with the Ruger Hawkeye.

Chimera, wow! a shooter! strikingly good-looking!

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:

Chimera ... strikingly good-looking!

Rip
.