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Matt the right hand rifle was fitted with swift bottom metal Joe milled out the box appreciably then threw away the floor plate and built a custom floor plate with 40-60 tho more depth making the stack large enough to take five down with one in the tube -- 5 belted 458's so if I remember with all the cutting thinning and a deeper belly pan the box area was 120/000 tho deeper and appreciably wider this all took work time and best guns skill It was incredible to watch Joe work his magic fitting all five in and watch em feed out like slick snot under high pressure -- when you lean in and jack on the bolt guys like Brett [Joe's boy the number 2 gun maker here in the shop], can have all six in the air before the first one hits the floor -- I will see if I can get and post a video here of the flash of brass -- bet you folks get a kick out of that one the left hand was built I called Dwayne Webie and he sent Joseph one of his last bottom metal kits for the mauser well when it first came in we could see we were going to like it bit bigger -- every little bit counts on a project like this -- took some cutting trimming fitting and on and on but in the end no new custom floor plate build and one hell of a lot less shoehorning in to get the five down to fit and flow you can make either of them work but if you are doing five down on a small action Wiebe bottom metal is by far the best way to go Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I don’t know how they did it, but Allison & Carey built a 458 that held 6 down and 1 up. This was for PH Brian Herne. He describes the box as widened, so I think it must be like Duane does with the trapezoidal box. | |||
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stradling, Buy a donkey for the explanation. Hope to see that six shooter unloaded on video.  Rip ... | |||
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xausa; I fired a few dozen rounds of heavy loads after purchase of the Lead Sled without a problem. So I dismissed the comment of a fellow member that the Lead Sled had a "reputation" of cracking stocks of Big Bores. Actually the Lead Sled comes in several (about three) formats: light loads from light calibers, average loads for most rifles, and one for magnum loads. The differences being that the frames and other pieces, including the cradle where the butt stock fits, vary in size, weight and strength. Each has an attached pan for adding weight, such as a bag(s) of shot. Mine was the mid-weight one. I put an eight lb bag of shot in the pan and the severe recoil did push me and the whole contraption back almost one foot each time the trigger was squeezed. I then added another bag of shot -- this time a 25 lb bag. With the approximate weight of the Lead Sled at 15 lbs, plus 33 lbs of lead shot, plus the weight of the rifle at over 10 lbs, and my shoulder against the cradle, the front of the Lead Sled did "jump" off the cement table surface by about one inch or so, and the whole affair still moved slightly rearward but not by much -- maybe 3 - 4 inches. It was a very light push on my shoulder that reminded me of the recoil of a .223Rem. So the added weight held the three legs with their rubber feet tight to the cement table creating a lot of friction. Therefore, the rifle butt stock itself bore the near full force of recoil and cracked the stock, despite what some might think. Of that I'm certain and entertain no doubts. Not everyone's experience and conditions are the same. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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When I fire a rifle using the Lead Sled, I am holding it with both hands and firmly pushing it back into the cradle, as you refer to it, while at the same time pushing the cradle into my shoulder. Failure to press the buttplate firmly into the cradle can give the rifle just enough momentum to crack the stock, if everything is not held firmly together. I believe some shooters use the bench rest technique of holding the rifle only with the trigger hand, which can cause the situation I describe. | |||
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Good! I do the same. I was about to add that. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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IMHO, Bob is absolutely correct. The huge, solid guy who experiences recoil pain more so than the lighter fellow who moves more with the recoil means that his rifle is also experiencing more pain. Dissipating the recoil impulse in lesser length of space and time is going to put more stress on that rifle stock. There is just no other way it can be. I do not think that requires quantum mechanics to understand. Newtonian is good enough. Bob's last statement above is a pregnant one about those who have not cracked a stock with a lead sled ... yet. Rip ... | |||
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Hey guys, After looking at all these beautiful .458's I thought it was time I posted an ugly one! FOR THE MISSION!!! Here's my 5th and last .458WM. lt's a Zastava M70 that has been fitted with a full-aluminium bedded Hogue stock with Leupold steel mounts/ rings and fitted up top with a Leupold 1.5-4x20 scope. This rifle was created with a strict budget in mind (l'm broke!) and with everything purchased brand new it owes me the grand sum of $1543! AUD Now, living in Victoria, Australia we have no Scrub-Bulls or Asiatic Water Buffalo. But we do have the large Sambar deer. Plus we also have Red deer and the smaller Fallow deer. Also, weather and terrain can get a little rough and rugged in Vic, so I kept that in mind when choosing a stock for this rifle. So my elephant gun is now a deer rifle! But l'll be using full power 450-500gn loads in it because deer hunting with a fully loaded .458 is just plain fun. Trust me, l've done it before!  You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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But not all my .458WM's were ugly. This is a CZ550 that I gave the custom touch... I had the following done: Fore-end shortened and a buffalo horn tip fitted. Barrel shortened to 21" Barrel band fitted Dual crossbolts fitted Feed ramp etc... polished This was probably the nicest looking rifle l've ever owned and I miss it a bit... l sold it to buy a well worked over Winchester M70 also in .458. l'm desperately trying to find a good pic of this Winchester, as l think this was my favourite rifle that l've ever owned. Although l must say that my new 'ugly' Zastava is really growing on me!  You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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California gun maker Lon Paul builds CZ 458 Lotts that hold six down and one in the chamber. And they are popular with African PH's. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Exactly. Key word being ... YET! | |||
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if a 458 win mag gun nut [ not unlike most of us posting on this thread] wanted a six down on the wiebe bottom metal it is quite possible to accomplish this all you would need to acquire and employ - would be, J.P. Smithson Gun Maker's hands God and Stradivari's Violin that left hand Zastava up thread is quite THE VERY dam close, as built -- add a fat belly pan and the sixth down would fall right in -- new custom bottom floor plate -- actually not such a small thing -- HOWEVER Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Bob's last statement above is a pregnant one about those who have not cracked a stock with a lead sled ... yet. Rip ...[/QUOTE] Exactly. Key word being ... YET![/QUOTE] ……………...……...……...…. ABSOLUTELY!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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On one heartbreaking morning some more than a few years back, I took my brand new 300 wby mark V fancy wood stock rifle and the new to me lead sled to the range at the duck club. the idea that morning was to dial her in on a dime. The custom load was sizzling hot as is mandatory in the famous 300 wby. We are not shooting a 300 win mag here are we ? Beautifly arnate figuring in the stock carried right up in to the grip, now! that 10 o'clock high bright morning sun, showed it off in absolut grander. Seven shots in and nowhere near the dime I now hold in my shaking hands, a 2 piece stocked 300 wby. Still quite fancy wood but somehow just not quite the same any more -- it took an expensive restocking to get her back and get her on the dime, which happened some months later absent the lead sled so :; all that I read above on this subject I know to be true. Having said all that about all this -- just this last spring -- shooting 3 inch floating wood cubes on the river with the 416 rem mag a mark V weatherby with stunning wood. A stiff but not extremely heavy loaded 400 grain bullet jumped the wood bricks 30 feet straight up when fired upon properly. We were playing a game to see if each of us could unload our ''big gun'' shooting the brick again and again, as it fell back to the fast flowing river. After I ran the rack on one river run, Ted noticed something going on [not right] w my gun. The stock was split down the middle in the forend, broke 1/2 in two sideways at the center, and separated back down through the grip. Looking at the fiasco made me wonder if just one more shot-- would ''a --, speared a piece of fat meat. Point being that it can happen to a dry highly figured grain wood right up there on the shoulder. Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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I know its not a 458 Magnum but its my Sako Brown bear in 450 Rigby top with a Aimpoint hunter dot sigh I only shoot cast bullet in it and is used for moose hunting I have ad many winchester 458 some push feed some controlled feed and a ruger 77 reading this interesting thread I missed my mold 70 control feed....  | |||
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Nice looking rifle you got there! Deadly too, or so I hear. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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the bullet a left is a 545 gr. gas check center is a 465 gr. gas check right is a 350 gas check the  is used for moose hunting and it runs a 1900 fps | |||
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the 545 is used for moose hunting at 1900 fps | |||
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Some CZ 550 Magnums came from the factory able to do that, most only hold 5 down in .458 WIN. I cannot explain it.  Just an extra 0.1" from a drop floor plate will make them all 6 + 1 sevenshooters. Rip ... | |||
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Great support of THE MISSION, y'all ! Those model rifles are great suggestions for .458 WIN builds. Much appreciated. I have one that I wish I had been smart enough in 2012-2013 to have done as a .458 WIN instead of a wild-assed wildcat, .500 Bateleur. It used Wiebe 500 Jeffery bottom metal that holds 5 down in the box with .458 WIN instead of 3 down with .500 Jeffery or .500 Bateleur. A coffin or pocket plate on the drop belly here would also make it 6 down, as stradling described.    Formerly a Herter's .30-06 (FN "Mauser"), after 7 years I have finally had a real GUNSMITH install the front sight. Surely I could find a new M98 bolt and a new barrel for turning it into a .458 WIN-V-3.5" ! I like the drop-box hanging below the standard-belly stock. Just like Saeed does it on his .375/404 Jeffery Dakota M76 African in a synthetic stock. Rip ... | |||
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  Plenty of patridge for filing down there. The higher the front sight, the less drop in the comb necessary to make it useful with a rear aperture sight replacing the scope. I had to do this after I found out the B&C Medalist is shootable with my not-too-fat face using iron sights: Patridge and peep. Yes it is a tight fit, a new band size offered by NECG that was not available 7 years ago. Fits that No.6 sporter Pac-Nor 24" barrel perfectly if slid back to a Westley Richards type location. Some might like it better if the barrel was shortened to 23". The barrel is 0.790" diameter at 24", .510-caliber. About 0.800" diameter at 23" length. The rifle now weighs 8#-13oz as shown above. Front sight added 2 oz. A No.5 contour with the smaller .458-caliber rifling might get it closer to 9.0 lbs. Standard weight for a Four Five Eight. A No.4 sporter contour of 23" length and .458 caliber might get it close to 8.5 lbs. with that Wiebe bottom metal, built like a brick dunny. Rip ... | |||
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RIP, I solved all your problems.... http://coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm Put all your casting stuff to good use and cast a bullet from some old gaudy jewelry you have around the house or from all that gold you got from Alaska. What was a 300 grain cast lead bullet would now be around 550 grains as a gold one. You could probably get a 500 grain bullet @ 2300 with a normal 458 WM OAL. Get that pot hot! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boom stick, That is rich ! Actually 300 grains of lead converts to 510 grains of gold by volume displaced, according to your SG list. Winchester 510-grain soft point made of gold !  As you were. This Dakota M76 African will hold 6 down in the box with .458 WIN, easily a sevenshooter:  Rip ... | |||
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I wonder if Dakota have sold many of those in 458? If my neck and back would let me re enter the world of heavy kickers then a 458 and 460 would be on board and of course a pair of 378s and for the 458 I would be heading non stop to the M70 and fucking big bunch of 400 grain Speer flat nose. For me, the 458 loaded with those 400s and either 70 grains of 4064 burn rate for 2000 or 79 grains of 3031 burn rate for 2100 just may have been the nest things I have owned in the world of guns. I reckon, in fact I know from experience, if more people saw and used that load then there would be a lot more 458s out there. | |||
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.298 SD, 437.5 grains or one ounce is enough especially at $1,500 an ounce. Recover the bullet and wear it as a pendant or just melt down again and keep shooting really large animals to catch that bullet!
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Hey guys, By a stroke of luck l've found a guy who has a stash of .458 ammo  So today saw me pick up a couple of boxes so I could sight in the Zastava - and when he opened up the still sealed box I got a bit of a shock! I hadn't seen this stuff for ages! What era do you guys think it is? I'm thinking '80's... Well, I can tell you for a fact it still goes bang - and it kicks like an absolute mule! I'm going to get myself a few more packets in the next couple of weeks.. I haven't chrono'd it yet but I reckon it'll be doing 1900-1950fps... will keep you posted I just thought that this was a cool find. Cheers, Russ  You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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Your 80s date might be right. From memory Winchester ammo in early 70s were a yellow like packet. About 1971 in 22" barrel M70 Super Grades I got 1960 f/s. That was on the Ohler Model 10 with paper screens. The chrono cost a little more than a Sako 270 at that time  | |||
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Rip the floor plate on Joe's rifle the right hand action has this shops 458 custom floor plate it with the swift bottom metal modified here takes 5 down be it a tight fit. We were building that rifle just about the time tanoosa started this thread asking about hornady's published loads When I say we -- well it's 99 3/4 Joe -- We used Swift metal because you could get it back then fairly reliably -- Joe having history with Ted Blackburn knew how hard it was for Dwane To keep the lights on so as to get the bottom metal building business started up his way and thank god he did that cause Blackburn was not making all that manny just then. Well after we started the left hand zastava I called swift for a box -- the guy that runs the cnc mill could not give me a hard date -- he is a great guy, dead honest, not an all that common trait these days. excited to get the build rolling Joe got thinking and came up with just maybe Dwaine Wiebe has, might sell us just what we need, I called him, he looked around, he found it, Dwain knew exactly what we were trying to do and exactly what we needed, we bought it, he sent it, Joe Put it on and it was at that point when we were running up the action feed right there in his vice that it became clear that the sixth round would go down real tight, I said Joe lets put your floor plate on it and go six. Do we really want to go through all that just to get one more in there so you can bullshit the PH at the fire with the whisky that he has got 5 but you got 6, asks Joe now wise beyond his years. Being a weak idea when I first proposed it I fell back replying Frig no let's slick it up and get it shooting - which he did do we shot it just the weekend before I posted these pictures of both rifles -- still if someone wanted six in the bottom -- just ask Joe He will build you one no matter, it be right or left, five or six down, - 20 inch [ which would fit shoemaker the far north big bear man] or 24 inch for a bit more velocity or 22 inch like the 2 in the picture. No matter the round down count, no matter the longness of the barrel, they -ALL- come out lean, clean, and to plagiarize Phil Shoemaker, as lovely and lively as the very best old british makers ever put on the rack, or in shoemakers hands 6 down in a CZ is not the best dance partner out there, a bit of a german milk maid with rather thick ankles, This petite thin waisted sister is light lethal and lovely just so long as you are man enough to run her juices hot, [remember she can go, again and again and again-and 2 more, can you ? ] and are you disciplined enough to dance with her in the thrill of the hunt, takes ---a real man. It's kinda like sex if you want to finish on top ya gotta pay attention Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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badboymelvin, You and Mike might be correct about the vintage. My two empty boxes are not pristine like yours, but they look the same as they always were since I started dallying with them in the mid-1980s.  I also have a couple of full boxes of .378 Weatherby factory loads from same time period. I bought them at a gun show last month. They have the same "rampant elephant" on them as the .460 Wby ammo I used to buy in the mid-1980s. And then there is the yellow and red box from 1956. Advertised MV for 500-gr "Full Patch" and 510-gr Soft Point was 2125 fps for respective KEs of 5010 and 5110 ft-lbs, assumed to be from 25" barrel. Source: 1957's THE GUN DIGEST:  1969: Velocity advertised was 2130 fps MV for soft and solid (5040 and 5140 ft-lbs) 1981: 2130 fps MV 1988: 2040 fps MV: Sometime between 1981 and 1987 they downgraded the factory ammo specs, to make 1988 press time with the advertising. I would have to get out the digital THE GUN DIGEST to be more precise. Above is from paper copies lying around here. I cannot find any of my chronograph data from the previous century on the .458 WIN factory ammo, but that was during the time, IIRC, that the factory spec for the 510-grainer had been reduced to 2040 fps from a 22" barrel, maybe. Anywho, I chronographed 5 of those mid-1980s 510-grainers in a 25"-barreled CZ 550 Magnum Safari factory rifle at 84 degrees F in 2002. Average for 5 rounds = 2027 fps MV (BC = .287, corrected from 5-yard velocity of 2014 fps) In 2017 I chronographed my last two rounds of same lot of 510-grainers from the 1980s in a 24-7/8" CZ barrel at 76 degrees F. Average for 2 shots = 2023 fps MV As Finn Aagaard said, 2000 fps with a 500-grainer makes a bloody big hole through anything. Hornady factory ammo with 500-grain DGS and DGX is indeed very close to their claimed 2140 fps MV nowadays, and 2200 fps with 500-grainer is no problem for any handloader of the .458 WIN, even at 3.340" COL. Rip ... | |||
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I will never understand why Weatherby stopped those animal picture packets. I think 300 Wby had a tiger and the 224 a fox. | |||
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stradling, Buy a donkey for that spiel. My Marcella holds only 3 down in the box, and that is ample for most situations, jah. I have one last Wiebe XRM sheet metal box for an M70 Winchester. It might get used yet, to make her into a fiveshooter, without detracting from her figure or handling. Field ready with 5 rounds on board, still a wee bit under 10 pounds:   The ultimate Simpson Sixshooter:   With the 22" barrel the short forend is sweet. Can you divulge the muzzle diameter at 22" ? Rip ... | |||
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I will get it and get back that there marcella looks to be a buffalo shooter for shur nuf we started to do the feed video yesterday but a high dollar guns customer dropped by and wrecked the plan believe it this is slow mo -- https://imgur.com/rtX9SEn  <img src="https://i.imgur.com/rtX9SEn.mp4" title="source: imgur.com" /> The real time is downloading HERE SHE BE -- LOOK CLOSE -- YOU MIGHT SEE SOME BRASS  your not going to get that kind of cycle time out of an off the shelf rifle -- weatherby winchester, sako, FN, Browning -- CZ I don't give a shit which one you pick or how hard you work on it -- it aint gonna happen the weather turned good out here in Utah and I am loading about 100 rounds a day by sunday night we will be 458 win mag rich and 500 grain bullets poor - gonna take those twin sisters out for a weekend dance NOT ON THE PHONOGRAPH RATHER THE CHRONOGRAPH As Finn Aagaard said, 2000 fps with a 500-grainer makes a bloody big hole through anything. Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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stradling, Buy a buy a donkey donkey for that video. Started with a round chambered and ejected 6 in just over a second, under 2 seconds by my metronome. Rip ... | |||
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Slick, but he’s not putting the rifle into battery, just cycling the bolt. Tuned rails and ramp and a RN bullet can get you that out of just about any bolt action. The most likely point of losing time is in the bolt lift after the shot and at the end of the stroke. That’s where the shooter is most likely to lose grip and slip off the bolt knob. Also, loaded rounds, especially with heavy bullets inherently eject more reliably than an empty case. | |||
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All as you say, Huvius, but you did say "tuning" is required. That rifle is obviously well tuned. Joe Simpson tuned. And it is a .458 WIN M98 sixshooter ! That rifle makes orchestra music by comparison to a .458 Lott Blaser R8 making ukulele music. Emptying a 6-shot rifle in just over a second reminds me of the story of a guy with really bad buck fever. He saw a huge buck and worked his bolt back and forth without firing a shot until his rifle was empty. Rip ... | |||
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Winchester Model 70 with its cone breach loads almost anything I had one the even loaded empty brass | |||
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The lack of a proper radius on the chamber of a mauser can cause all kinds of issues. Ask me how I know... | |||
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Yep, and the lack of a proper radius on the edges of the extractor cut in the coned breech of a Winchester M70 can wreak havoc too. Or "wreck havoc" as the average Democrat voter would say. Rip ... | |||
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