According to this... the wealth of post WW2 America led to the 458 WM.

https://thebiggamehuntingblog....win-mag-vs-458-lott/

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
Another one for the mission guys!

https://revivaler.com/458-winchester-magnum

That one is just GREAT ! Buy a buy a donkey donkey !
Sure glad you brought it here, for THE MISSION,
I had not seen it before.
Author did himself proud, and so did the Australian farmer shooting roos with his handloaded .458 WIN so as to be humane about it:



Jon C. Branch:

'The .458 Winchester Magnum is a cartridge that has long been locked up in the “African Safari” box in people’s thinking. Its a lot more than that, and far more capable than just that. Its a cartridge that needs to be re-discovered.'


The "blog entry" link on our previous page was a authored by a committee of pajama boys by comparison.
Said commercial operation claimed the 9.3x62mm Mauser of 1905 spurred the .404 Jeffery of 1905 into existence ???
They totally ignored the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949, though thankfully did mention the .375 WBY of 1944 and .378 WBY of 1953.
They claimed the 1955 tested ballistics of the .458 Winchester Magnum were based on 26" barrels: WRONG !
General Julian S. Hatcher, USA (Retired) published the table of loads from H. P. White Laboratory showing:
"All loads tested in Winchester pressure barrel 25" long,
groove diameter .4582", land diameter .450";
6 grooves, right twist, one turn in 14".
All loads assembled in Winchester cases, primed with Winchester No. 120 primer."

A .4573"/ 500-grain FMJ-RN (by WRA) at 2160 fps with no powder compression and 3.34" COL is shown:
"...Pressure (p.s.i.) Avg. of 10: 50,410 ..."

Whether that was a typo of p.s.i. instead of CUP, that is low pressure either way.
Powder charge was 71.0 grains of HiVel #2.

That is a minor example of how the pajama boys just repeat hearsay but it gets me riled up to become picky:
Too many double negatives in their script too, they need some proof reading, or are they trying to appeal to us rednecks by sounding like one?

One egregious typo: They mentioned "... 500gr (.260 BC) Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solids in both .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott ..."
???
My Woodleigh manual shows the 480-gr HYDRO to be the maximum weight in .458 caliber.
Did a .458/ 500-gr HYDRO ever exist ?

They totally neglect to discuss the throat of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, let alone any mention of ...
blah, blah, blah ... (biting my tongue).

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Sorry for the late reply, Ron, I was doing a bit of ignoring of my own.

What about this? I'll lay off global warming if you desist from political comments (as I said, they are not necessarily the same thing).

IMPOSSIBLE FOR BOTH OF US I AM SURE !
Mental flatulence happens !
If it occurs, just say "Excuse me."
Then we can all get on with ignoring it, or vacate the immediate vicinity if it is really bad.
No need for getting into a farting or belching contest.

So, as a physician, what's your doctor outlook on these things?

As Benjamin Franklin said: "Fart proudly."
If you are not flatulent you are dead.
Lack of the occasional brain fart is not healthy.
It should be readily forgiven and move on.
It is a sign that a movement is coming after all, a good thing generally,
even celebrated in old age.
Fart proudly ! Or, LET'ER RIP !
I also concur with Dr. Fury01:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Health outlook of owning and using a 458wm:
Life is better with one than without one
On the other end of the rifle; life is Shorter when hit with a projectile from one than it would be without that happening.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
RIP - I’m watching your trials with cast bullets with interest. I’m sure others are too.

With your cast pills, I’m assuming you don’t size them initially and simply coat the pills until they reach 0.461” in diameter. Are you sizing them at any stage?

ANSWER: They are always sized after powder-coat paint is baked on.
Using harder alloy adds 1 or 2 thousandths to the softer alloy diameter.
PC-paint adds another 1-2 thou.
I find that passing the hard-alloy, PC-painted bullets through my Lee .460" sizer results in getting a final diameter of 0.461".
It is very reliable.
Whether due to some tiny spring-back of 0.001" or whether my Lee die is actually 0.461", I am not quite sure.
A happy circumstance.

For example:
My BACO (Buffalo Arms Co.) .461 Gibbs Muzzleloader "Money-style" mould
arrived from maker with a sample bullet of .461" diameter, 1.448" length and 546.6-gr weight, cast in 20:1 alloy.
Measurements by me, reported alloy used by maker.

When I use that mould with 92/5/2/1 (Pb/Sb/Sn/As) alloy, it comes out .463"/1.450"/ 536 grains.

I water drop them and use latex or vinyl gloves for any handling until after they are PC-painted TWICE with Harbor Freight Red powder.

Then I pass them through the Lee .460" die, clean and dry.
The PC paint is the bullet lube.
Sizing makes the PC-paint shine on the bearing surfaces: smooth and shiny
Final product: .461"/ 538 grains.
Just 2 grains of PC-paint on the bullet.
After PC-paint the bullet was probably .464"-465" diameter.
Maybe too big for best practices to size down that much but it works.

All my other bullets come out of the mould at .460" to .461" in 92/5/2/1 alloy.
They get painted up to .461"-462" or .462"-.463" (after two coats) before going through the .460" Lee sizer (dry, no lube) for final diameter of .461".


I might have missed it, but with the GC designs are you fitting the GC? Have you tried the GC designs without a GC as well?

The gas check is simply applied with the base-pusher rod of the Lee sizing die when the bullet is pushed through nose first,
for the one and only sizing operation.
I have never tried the GC designs without the GC.
Have you?
GUNS & AMMO latest magazine has photos of flat base and boat tail bullets, high speed,
shows bullets emerging from muzzle.
More gas blow-by with the boat tails, less chance for accuracy problems with the flat base.
A rebated base (GC with no GC) would not be good, IMHO.

Here in Oz we have limited access to different powders. We have the ADI powders which are rebranded as Hodgdon in the US, plus irregular supplies of some Alliant powders. In their wisdom Winchester has chosen to no longer import their own powders.

I’m thinking of basing my cast experiments, initially at least, on 2206H (H4895) as I’d really like to develop some accurate full power loads.


I would be very happy with the ADI powders equivalent to the HODGDON BENCHMARK and H4895. Heck throw in some ADI equivalent to VARGET too !

I recently picked some of the Hi Tek bullet coating material (another Aussie product) but need to assemble all the other gear to coat my own pills. I have lacked the inertia to go down this path but your success has spurred me into action. It does seem like an easy and worthwhile process.

Try it, you'll like it. 1 pound of Harbor Freight Red powder cost me about $8 and will do thousands of big bullets.

I have a number 458 moulds ranging from 260gr to 560gr and I will try most of the heavier ones with the Hi Tek coating. If there’s any internal space I’ll probably fill that void with polystyrene packing material.

I will use slices of foam caulk-backer rod to eliminate air space from my loads henceforth.
The irony of having to use fillers in the .458 WIN is not lost on me.

It will make an interesting reloading project for the winter.

Summer is coming here.

Rip ...

Thanks for that one, boom stick,

One good turn deserves another, by Jon C. Branch too:

https://revivaler.com/pre-64-w...8-winchester-magnum/


Rip ...

The Zastava-- Allen, sent to Joe.... is so close to Africa --- I can smell///see it from here



Dwyane Webies bottom metal gave us 5 down a hell of a lot better than [lot less work] the swift bullet bottom metal ---from you know who ---

Krikey! Who made that 458, Stradling? Joe Smithson?

no one made it --yet-- J.P Smithson Gun Maker is working on making it

yet to be blued checkered rear sight shot in and hunted

so close I am getting sea sick

Very nice rifle... whew...

thanks it's been a long quest

thing is .. at the end of the day

me Joe both of us found out early down on those Arizona ranches-- that a 458 w m was about as much as a cowboy could get that second shot from a stopping rifle -- the english found out about that early but the 450 double running at 1900 + stopping the aggressive motivated game \

we like to run the gun at 2,150 fps slinging the hornady 500 -- not the 450 N E at historically 1,950 ish fps and 480 wt bullets -- HAY A IT WORKED -- YOU WILL NEVER SHOOT AS MUCH AS IT STOPPED --- so

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Why is the 458 Win Mag 2.5” instead of 2.54”?
There is capacity left on the table in a cart that could use some. What would be an “improved” 2.54” case capacity be? lengthened and blown out capacity?

Actually, the case could be 2.6" if it was like the 300 WM. If it was blown out to the point of removing the belt, .532" case head, then you would have a 458 Ruger. That would provide Lott capacity in a short case and allow plenty of room for potential throat and length adjustments. Pretty nice all around.

IIRC most 458 rifle bullets are .8” tip to canalure so 2.54” would be the limit of benefiting returns maximizing useable case capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
IIRC most 458 rifle bullets are .8” tip to canalure so 2.54” would be the limit of benefiting returns maximizing useable case capacity.

Yes, if limited to 3.34" COL.
Magazines are often 3.4".
Then the tweaking begins.

(unrelated) "... As Lady and I look out tonight from Desolation Row." (Actually, it's a delightful rainy morning in Arusha.)

stradling,

Nice of you to drop by.
Don't be a stranger.
I noticed that Smithson scope mounts are offered on the reincarnated Rigby Rising Bite.

https://www.johnrigbyandco.com/guns/the-rising-bite/

Back in London, made out back and sold up front of the premises.
The Rising Bite was discontinued in 1910 due to expense and the times. They made a couple for a Maharajah whose money talked in 1932
Then none for 83 years ...

Since 2015 it has been back, latest price is starting at 118,200 Pounds sterling and a 3-year wait.
Lessee, currently that is $151,538.46 (US) not counting the Smithson mounts.



I have John Rigby taste and a Bubba budget.
Life is cruel.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I might have missed it, but with the GC designs are you fitting the GC? Have you tried the GC designs without a GC as well?

The gas check is simply applied with the base-pusher rod of the Lee sizing die when the bullet is pushed through nose first,
for the one and only sizing operation.
I have never tried the GC designs without the GC.
Have you?
GUNS & AMMO latest magazine has photos of flat base and boat tail bullets, high speed,
shows bullets emerging from muzzle.
More gas blow-by with the boat tails, less chance for accuracy problems with the flat base.
A rebated base (GC with no GC) would not be good, IMHO.

Many thanks for your thorough response.

In response to the question you posed about using bullets with a GC shank without a GC, I have only used them at low speed/pressure, where the lack of a GC didn’t seem to make any difference.

At higher speed/pressure I would agree that it could affect accuracy. That might be another aspect to test. Who knows such a big slug may not be so badly affected. It would certainly save the cost and extra hassle of fitting a GC.

Stradling - that lefty Zastava is coming up well. It’s been comprehensively worked over.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Sorry for the late reply, Ron, I was doing a bit of ignoring of my own.

What about this? I'll lay off global warming if you desist from political comments (as I said, they are not necessarily the same thing).

IMPOSSIBLE FOR BOTH OF US I AM SURE !
Mental flatulence happens !
If it occurs, just say "Excuse me."
Then we can all get on with ignoring it, or vacate the immediate vicinity if it is really bad.
No need for getting into a farting or belching contest.

So, as a physician, what's your doctor outlook on these things?

As Benjamin Franklin said: "Fart proudly."
If you are not flatulent you are dead.
Lack of the occasional brain fart is not healthy.
It should be readily forgiven and move on.
It is a sign that a movement is coming after all, a good thing generally,
even celebrated in old age.
Fart proudly ! Or, LET'ER RIP !
...
Rip ...

Hear also what John said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ro4DrewXHE

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Hear also what John said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ro4DrewXHE

That is a good one.
Only 15 seconds long.
Sounds like a Joe Biden response at a Democratic Party debate.
Excuse me.

Rip ...

How much case capacity is gained by another .040”? How much is gained by blowing out?

Barnes wants you to get a circumcision if you shoot the Lott.

https://barnesbullets.com/wp-c.../2014/11/458Lott.pdf

*Recommend crimping case mouth into front cannelure.
*Barnes 450- and 500-grain TSX bullets have the front cannelure positioned to maximize case capacity in the .458 Win Mag. When loading these bullets in the .458 Lott we recommend trimming the cases back to 2.760”, so that these bullets can be loaded within the SAAMI spec COAL of 3.600”. If your magazine box will handle cartridges longer than 3.600”, this step is not necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
How much case capacity is gained by another .040”? How much is gained by blowing out?

boom stick, what you're describing is the .450 Barnes-Johnson Express (B-J Express), which preceded the Win Mag, but is essentially a .458 Win Mag with a straightened case with the shoulder blown out to about .501-.502". It picks up about 5-6 grains of water, and my calculations show that it should allow an increase from both the 3.34" or 3.60" long-COL loaded Win Mag tapered case of around 50-75 fps with slow powders and heavy bullets. I have been interested in trying this at some point, but honestly, if I were going to rechamber a .458 Win Mag for any reason (HERESY!!!) such as a sloppy chamber just forward of the belt, I would rather try a .458-375 Ruger like RIP has already done. With the Ruger case capacity and Win Mag throat, slightly slower powders should come into their own and allow the WinRuger to get even higher velocities at lower pressures with heavy bullets. But realistically, it's a lot of expense for a marginal gain.

Look at page 153 of this thread about halfway down to find the .450 B-J Express: RIP posted some photos of cartridge comparisons.

Awesome! do you know what the extra case capacity or useable case capacity is gained by the extra .040”? So the BJ express which I forgot the name of has a case capacity of about 100 grains and that leaves 8 more grains to go to catch up to the Lott.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Awesome! do you know what the extra case capacity or useable case capacity is gained by the extra .040”? So the BJ express which I forgot the name of has a case capacity of about 100 grains and that leaves 8 more grains to go to catch up to the Lott.

Thanks!

You bet. If the bullet is seated to the base of the neck, you'd pick up all the extra capacity of 5-6 grains. My calculations show that even though case capacity is less than the Lott, velocities are about identical to it.

If I read you correctly, the 6 grains is the extra capacity and extra OAL to 3.34? If the BJE + .040” OAL is 100 grains vs 94 of the WM, that leaves 8 grains capacity so if all things being equal with the rule of 4 grains capacity gain gives 1% increase in speed that gives 2% increase in performance which translates into less than 50 FPS slower than the Lott with .26” OAL difference.

Buy a donkey to bcelliott for coaching boom stick.
Boomer's latest points have been dealth with here before,
including the Barnes Circumcision for .458 Lott brass:

*Recommend crimping case mouth into front cannelure.
*Barnes 450- and 500-grain TSX bullets have the front cannelure positioned to maximize case
capacity in the .458 Win Mag. When loading these bullets in the .458 Lott we recommend
trimming the cases back to 2.760”, so that these bullets can be loaded within the SAAMI spec
COAL of 3.600”. If your magazine box will handle cartridges longer than 3.600”, this step is not
necessary.


A .458"-diameter cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water per inch of cylinder length.
Loading a ".458 Whatever" to 0.04" longer COL adds this much to case capacity:

[(0.04")/(1.00")] X [41.66 grains] = 1.67 grains of H2O

This does bring up what is meaningful for COL changes in affecting pressures and velocities in the .458 WIN.

My guess is that adding 0.260" of COL will either reduce pressures by 5000 PSI for same velocity,
or increase velocities by 100 fps with same pressure,
with proper powder.
Therefore, with 3.600" COL, the .458 WIN beats the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Or maybe a mere 0.130" COL increase will add 50 fps at same pressure or
decrease pressure by 2500 fps for same velocity.
Thus a .458 WIN with only 3.470" COL can equal a SAAMI .458 Lott for velocity, yet still have 2500 psi lower pressure.
That is with 480- to 500-grain bullet.
Just a guess.

Rip ...

Summary of starting loads for cast bullets, all with 65.0 grains of AA-2230 and no filler.
I will try same charge with filler for at least a couple of these and add the 480-grain T6 HYDRA monometal copper for comparison.

Then do "starting loads" with AA-2460 also, starting at 67.0 grains PLUS FILLER.

Similar could be done with Hodgdon's Benchmark (ADI's Bench Mark 2) starting at 66.0 grains,
or start with 70.0 grains of H4895 (AR2208H).
Might be able to forget the filler altogether with those extruded powders.

Using AA-2460 allows higher velocity at lower pressure than with AA-2230, according to the Western Powders pressure data.

Just thought up the name "Mini-Money-Gas-Checked" for the 475-gr Lyman #457671: MMGC

Its shape is similar to the "Big-Money-Plain-Base" 538-grainer, the BACO .461 Gibbs Muzzleloader bullet: BMPB

Some folks with Rigby tastes and a Rigby budget:



The Mr. and Mrs. here paid $250,000 at the SCI auction for the reproduction of Jim Corbett's .275 Rigby (2016 IIRC).
The genuine antique (left, above) resides at the Rigby Museum in London. The Museum and Rigby records are at same address where guns are made out back and sold up front.
The guys in bowties are "gunmakers" at Rigby.
At least one of them listens to heavy metal while he works metal.
Jolly good show !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Hear also what John said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ro4DrewXHE

That is a good one.
Only 15 seconds long.
Sounds like a Joe Biden response at a Democratic Party debate.
Excuse me.

Rip ...

Since you insist on taking us into that murky world, RIP, may I say I think the US system leaves something to be desired? Primaries sound very democratic but the expense of campaigning for them favors rich old men with very rich friends (like Bloomberg), whereby the democracy becomes a plutocracy. It always works best for the incumbent, however, because the opposition contenders have to tear each other to pieces, publicly, getting there.

In most other countries party leadership is an internal party matter, where an inner circle who really know the contenders decide which one is best. The matter may be reported by the press but is at least decided in a short time without needing massive private funds, meaning good but less-well-heeled candidates may have a chance at the eventual public election. The problems I see go on, of course, but that might do for the moment. I like to think the system here (an amalgam of the British and American ones, with local improvements) is much better - but, since we've had some abysmal leaders, too, nothing is perfect.

Paul,

You forgot to say "excuse me."
That's the polite thing to do when such emissions occur, such as my example above.
Now you are trying to fart more profoundly than I did ?
I refuse to get into such a juvenile contest with you.
The last time I got into a farting contest I was about 10 years old.
Spent the night at a buddy's house, Glen was his name.
We ate beans all night long, and we lit the farts right through our Dacron pajamas, all night long, using matches Glen supplied.
Thank God for fire-retardant pajamas !

I know, kids shouldn't play with matches.
My buddy's father was a state cop too ! He wore one of those Smokey the Bear hats to work and could not keep matches away from 10-year-old Glen.

Paul, you are properly excused.

Redeeming social value, the post-2015 Rising Bite:



Rip ...

SN 17116, the Rising Bite .450 Nitro Express Rigby that we were all lusting after: 10.75 pounds with 26" barrels.

The 1902-1903 Kynoch ammo claimed 2200 fps in 30" barrels with 480-grainer, 16.0 tpsi.
Velocity gains with such a load fall off rapidly after 26" of barrel.
This one probably did 2150 fps or better with 480-grainers.
That changed the world of big game hunting.

https://www.morphyauctions.com...d-accessories-37407/

$79,350.00
*STUNNING JOHN RIGBY BEST RISING BITE SIDE LOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE WITH CASE AND ACCESSORIES. SN 17116. Cal. 450 NE. Rigby evolved this load from the old black powder express cartridge. One of the first nitro express cartridges developed. This lovely rifle built ca. 1902, has 26″ chopper lump steel barrels which have full length raised file cut rib w/ one standing, 2 folding express sight w/ gold lines, and marked for 1, 2, and 300 yards dovetailed through. Ivory bead front sight is longitudinally dovetailed into raised portion of rib. Rib extension is cut out for Rigby Bissel Rising Bite third fastener. Rib is engraved “John Rigby & Co. 72, St. James’s St. London” in large Gothic script. Tops of bbls are engraved “Special 450 Bore Big Game Rifle” and “For Special Cordite cartridges & Bullet 480 Grs.” There is a decorative band of engraving around breech ends of bbls. Bbl flats are stamped w/ London provisional and view proofs, “450 EX”, w/ Rigby double R trademark, and SN. Sling loop is soldered to bottom rib. Water table is stamped w/ proofs, Rigby logo, and SN. Breech face is stamped w/ “R & B”, “Patent 1141”, and “No. 868” referring to the rising bite third fastener. Firing pin bushings are stamped “R” and “L”. Action is filed in typical Rigby fashion w/ rounded beads at bottom of action, and acanthus flutes around and over top of fences. Lock plates are of the “dipped” Rigby style. File cut and checkered non-automatic safety button has detent bolt which must be depressed before safety can be moved. Action is engraved w/ shaded openwork scroll in typical Rigby style, and “JNo. Rigby & Co” is on both lock plates. Trigger guard has scroll engraving, and terminates in trigger plate. SN is engraved on grip of extended trigger plate, in typical Rigby style. Nicely streaked European walnut pistol grip buttstock measures 14-3/8″ over red “Old English” pad, and features vacant gold oval, horn grip cap, drop points, and 20 LPI checkering w/ mullered borders. Splinter forend fastens to bbl w/ Rigby patent lever. Forend iron has Rigby trademark, SN, and is fitted w/ Rigby’s hexagonal nut, for turning ejectors on and off. Wood and checkering match buttstock. Drop at heel: 2-1/2″, drop at comb: 1-3/4″. Weight: 10 lbs 12oz. Oak and leather case has stitched leather corners, w/ brass reinforcing on oak portions evident when case is open. Interior is lined in red cloth w/ Rigby paper label, w/ additional label cautioning to let locks down when rifle is stored. Accessories include: Round pewter oil bottle, bone striker case w/ spare strikers, and 3 front sight beads w/ slip over night sight, pair of snap caps, leather wallet w/ cleaning equipment, bushing key, 3-prong steel Berdan primer remover, and 2 Rigby marked labeled tins of Rangoon oil, and special cleaning fluid. There is also a horn striker block stamped “Rigby”. CONDITION: Excellent. Bbls retain 95% original blue, silvering around muzzles, and thinning near forend, w/ small area of discoloration on rib, and a few scattered marks. Action retains 70% case color, silvering at bottom and on beads and fences. Lock plates retain 80%-90% of their case color, stronger on right lock plate. Blue on trigger guard is thin. Top lever and safety button retain most of their bright blue. Wood is crisp, and retains virtually all of its oil finish w/ a few minor handling marks. Checkering is sharp w/ a small area of compression on left side of grip. Pad is nicely fitted, and shaped. Bores are excellent, sharp rifling, bright and shiny w/ slightest hint of erosion at throats. Action is tight. Bbls are on face. Ejectors are in time. Case leather has a few minor scuffs, straps and handle are fine. Interior cloth is good. Label has some stains, and a rub from contact w/ rifle. Accessories are good. A classic dangerous game rifle in wonderful condition. It doesn’t get much better! 4-37407 MGM65 (70,000-100,000)

Auction: Firearms - Spring 2009
Please Note: All prices include the hammer price plus the buyer’s premium, which is paid by the buyer as part of the purchase price. The prices noted here after the auction are considered unofficial and do not become official until after the 46th day.

Hey guys,

This is a quote from well known and respected big game hunter Michael McCourry;

"I would like to add one more little tidbit to my thoughts on 458 Winchester. I have Lotts and Winchesters and B&Ms all in 458, and love 458 caliber. I have nothing against the Lotts at all, but today the Lott is just not as "Required" as it once might have been. Back in the day the goal was a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps. The Winchester could not do it, 50 years ago, and for 50 years ago it was a bad idea, considering the powders available at the time. The Lott would have been able to do the goal of a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps without much issue. I doubt, and don't know of any decent 450 gr bullets in .458 that date to the time period. And they probably would not have been worth a damn anyway.

Point is, 50 years later, today, the 458 Winchester can safely reach that goal of a 500 at 2150 fps with relative ease, compressed or not, it does not matter. It can be "enhanced" by using proper designed 450 gr bullets that will accomplish ANY mission required of them, with ease. I would not under any conditions or terms convert a 458 Winchester to 458 Lott, just for the sake of another 1/4 inch or .3 inch of case. Not for a 150 fps or so.

Today, the 458 Lott is not "Required" to get the job accomplished. Nothing wrong with the Lott, nor any other higher capacity 458 cartridge, it's just simply not "Required" anymore. Wanted and desired is another story. I have half dozen Lotts sitting around today, they are not required for what I need to do with elephant, buffalo, and hippo any longer, so they are all retired and delegated to the range for test purposes only.

When it comes to thin skinned, KB has it whipped on his loads and bullets in 458. 458s are hammers on thin skinned critters, KB should try some of the new CEB NonCons if he wants to put stuff in the dirt quick, and I also like the light 325 North Fork Expanding CPS as well, hammers!"

Michael

Isn't that a fantastic quote!
I actually corresponded with Michael quite a bit and he immensely helped me with my .458 Winchester journey.
He is very, very, knowledgable and always spoke highly of the .458 ...

Mike is a good guy. Been to his house a few times and did a little shooting/testing. We shot through 4x4s and into media - passed right straight through. Pretty fun stuff.

I think I must have been ahead of time as my 45s have been 458s and 460s only. Spent some time stuffing about with a mates 459 Ackley on a BRNO.

My what I would call "star" 458s were M70s of about 1971 era when they were Super Grades and 22" barrels. 460s were of course Mark Vs.

I never had any interest with the in between 45s. If you like the sound of doing 2350 with 500 grainers the 460 (and of course 450 Dakota/Rigby) do that number like cruising around in a manual that had a big V8 engine. It was really noticeable when stuffing around with the 459 Ackley.

HAYa' MELVIN
that quote from Mike is spot on

reminds me of a quote I posted on page 1 of this [as of now 188 page thread ]

I will repost it now here -- without your expressed permission ---

your argument is quite wonderfully --to the point-- as well





This is a repost from african hunter

authored by bad boy melvin



QUOTE

Here is a short article I wrote a while ago and I thought I'd post it for you to have a look at.


Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum.

For more years than I can remember I have been an staunch fan of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Always have been, always will be and it is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But I have to state right now that I hold no sort of caliber racism. I have owned a few big caliber rifles, a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby and two .458's and loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the .404. I also like the various .416's and would own and stake my life on any of the above. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 2 rifles chambered for the .458WM at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round.
I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I can now no longer defend it.

Why not?

Because there's no point. I'm sick of getting into arguments with people!
People either don't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester. I end up just getting frustrated, so now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!
"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder and poor bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

Heard 'em all and to be honest I'm just tired of it... and I don't agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. In the day some of the bullets were shockers. Blew apart and were undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does get me upset is when someone, usually someone new to Big Bores, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because some of ammo that was manufactured 50+ ago was suspect!!
That'd be me like me saying "yeah, I drove a Chrysler 50 years and because of a bad experience I'll never drive one again!!"
I'll be honest and say that I just don't get that kind of reasoning.

To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridges aren't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.

A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann also wrote about this in detail. He wrote a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;
"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. It was, however, cemented by chemical action. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course)."

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, there's the stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together - even though it wasn't compressed, the original 'solids' blowing apart and being undersize. The production line spilling powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated. (Yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!!)
The 'glue' that held the bullet in place (yes, some companies glued the bullets in place) leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have been fixed (decades ago!!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will. But I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, Grobler, Harland, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 20,000 actually and all with the 458wm.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 (Varget) for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H (H4895) for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 elephants, yet are not compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be the most popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'll tell you, in summertime up the Northern Territory, it gets as hot up there as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and the N.T is where they are field tested.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28+" the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I do with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $15-20! At this OAL they are the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for dangerous game.
(Although I must admit now, I favour the lighter non-con bullets over the 500-550gr nowadays, CEB, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's)
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that WM ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the WM as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the WM to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally I would not consider to re chamber my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, to high pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458WM will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458WM of 2014 isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So this is why I no longer defend about the .458 Winchester Magnum.

I don't need to.

It has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;
"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.

Doc M rates with the greats for sure.
John Rigby
John Buhmiller
Michael McCourry
Yep, them, they were/are giants.



Barrel Maker and Wildcatter Extraordinaire, John Riley Buhmiller was never dependent on defective factory loads.
Since he handloaded, he never knew of any problems with the .458 WIN.
Yet still he tinkered with more big-bore wildcats than at which you could shake a stick,
both before and after the arrival of the .458 WIN.

Actually, the .458 Winchester Magnum always could do 2150 fps with 500-grainer in a 25" barrel, since Day One in 1955 testing.



Old powders, new powders, never a problem.
The problems came with quality control in mass production of ammo.
Thus came the excuse to re-create the cartridges that the .458 Winchester had improved upon.
Sell more of the different rifles and ammo.
We all got sucked into that one for too long.
Never more !

Rip ...