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Rip, Much like we are seeing in the .375 Penetration tests, length is not always an advantage. I would add, neither is alloy hardness. A deforming nose shifts weight forward and that is a good thing and thus soft bullets work well in game for that reason. In fact Ross Seyfreid cast hard bullets with soft noses, a real experiment I must say, to improve performance in Game. I would guess that with these big heavy cast slugs at slow speeds, even a flat nose won't create enough cavitation to resist the effect the medium has on the shank, which creates the tumbling. Happy shooting and testing!! "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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OK. Softer alloy then. WW air-cooled is supposed to be ideal for paper-patched bump-up. 40:1 to 20:1 soft enough for same. Lyman #2: BHN 15 at hardest ? Those Ross Seyfried soft nose, 2-part castings were ugly, adequate for handgunning up close ! If his looked like that, I resist trying it for rifle.  .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Lyman #2 I think is as hard as I want. WW air cooled are probably 10-12 BHN. With a gas check, they will go 1200-1700 just fine, maybe faster. Now some guesses: Sharpsguy with his long lead bullets going very darned slow when they hit that animal, simply don't show "normal" tendency to tumble. I believe that the true SD type momentum and the fact that they move through the tissue slowly, allows the flat nose and the shank to have roughly equal forces acting on them, thus they go straight. Some smart guy and an abacus could work that out I suspect but I have no desire to. Simple observation is enough for me. They also could be upsetting on the nose just a bit and moving the c of G towards the front but we would have to line up a couple of buffalo to catch some bullets in order to see.  "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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According to some, we are all just abusing ourselves if we use any .458 bullet other than a medium-hard-cast 480-grainer at less than 1400 fps.  Let'errip, and make it hurt so good !  .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Be damned, OOPS, my fault for taking pics with a beat to hell flip phone, please excuse the no i.t. talent from me, didn't even recognize that was Wifes HB feeder ; ] Thinking out loud again, a 450gr TSX at 2450 fps 3 inches high at 100 will zero at 210 yards, be 10 inches low at 300 still packing 1830 fps, not trying to make the 458 Win +P+ into a longish range rifle, but shows what it's capable of, shooting iron sight Sharps rifles to 700 yards, a 1.5-5 Leupold would be cake with a 458 at 300 yards on game. 458 barrel sight zeroed [filed] dead on at 50 with a 450gr BBW solid would round out the offering. | |||
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Jerry, You are a sick man. Congratulations ! Any thoughts on that .458"/ 536-grain grease-groove, plain-base BPCR bullet being a poor penetrator of game ?  Some say it kills elk promptly from an 18"-twist Sharps, but does not exit. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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RIP, it's true, I am a sick man, but thanks for the free diagnoses just the same ; ]....I will bet your load shop looks like a mad scientist's lab too ; ] I don't have any experience with that bullet, with proper hardness, sufficient velocity, and fired from a barrel with plenty of twist, I don't see how it could fail unless somehow it wanted to turn or tumble in flesh due to nose geometry/length. I would drive that bullet at 1400 fps from my 18 twist 45 3-1/4 cast from 16 to 1 alloy, would be shocked if it failed, failing to me is NOT penetrating straight, or shooting completely through an animal. BTW RIP, thanks for the hit on the Lee FCD, I need to get one ordered. | |||
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LOL, I missed this post.......You lucky Dog.  | |||
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well folks looks like Hornady customer service did not tell the truth about running 458 brass in July and I had thee folks at Precision Reloading here by home check and they were told there is not any production scheduled at all at this time sucks | |||
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Bummer. Back to cutting off the .458 Lott brass, .416 Remington brass, etc., etc. So many possibilities for improving brass by transforming it into .458 WIN. Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies may have to change its name to Bubba Bullet and Brass Metamorphosis Technologies: BBBMT Just save some proper headstamp for traveling, and shoot the heck out of the rest. Must be the China virus is putting a kink in production. We know the demand for .458 WIN MAG brass grows greater day by day. Hornady will be making it again, soon enough. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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No taint in my cheerios. I refuse to believe this .461"/ 579-gr bullet will be a tumbler:  It is only 1.400" long as shown, OK maybe 1.399" if the paint on the nose gets a little thin. Officially: 1.40" with GC and PCP, drawing spec for mould is 1.36" for length without gas check. 0.75" of the bullet length is full bearing, major diameter. 0.65" length of bore-rider nose is smaller, ahead of the first band, but that PC-painted nose will be superficially engraved by the rifling for most of its length. It will be accurate. More than half its length is full bearing. It makes the 536-grain BPCR bullet look frail and wobbly by comparison. Faster twist and higher velocity, how could it tumble ? The high sectional density of 0.394 is going to drive expansion of that nose at relatively low velocity. More so at higher velocity. Wide meplat: Great shoulder stabilization even if it does not expand at all. No taint in my cheerios. This Accurate Molds 46-576N is a perfect design for the SAAMI .458 WIN MAG. To make it possible to chamber in the .458 Lott, the front band would have to be sized down to .458" diameter, and then the .458 Lott brass would have to be trimmed to 2.760" length to make use of the crimp groove, for a COL of 3.600". Seating it to 3.600" COL in the .458 WIN+P+ will require less severe nose sizing and no shortening of brass. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Well somebody in KY has a bull with a broken leg that needs to go to Hamburger. Go buy one and create a test medium and then a hamburger cook out for all comers! Or you can go buy two protein tubs like I talked about and put one behind the other. Cheaper than a bull and you can feed it to the bull after your done shooting it. https://www.orschelnfarmhome.c...ral-protein-tub.html "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Fury01, Will do multiple tests on this one, the gauntlet has been thrown down. Artificial media and live game. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Sorry to hear of 458 case shortages. We need to band together, whatever one's chosen bigbore. I guess that I should be happy that I bought 150 Hornady cases of 416 Ruger this year. Still haven't gotten a 416 Ruger, since we're happy with the handloaded Rigby in Africa and a Rigby in the US for practice. But the day will come for downsizing from 6000 ft#. Someday. Meanwhile, enjoy all of your bigbore shooting. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Even if it does tumble after impact, it would just be even more devastating, though penetration would be cut from, what, 5 feet to 3? NRA Life Member testa virtus magna minimum | |||
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That will work.  Must be how those "1.663-inch-long" 500-gr TSX do it. Very accurate through the air at 2250 fps MV from a submaximal .458 WIN+P+. They kill well even if they tumble. If I had to use one instead of the lesser-weight TSX bullets, I would chamfer the hollow point hole a little bigger and call it the "499-grain TSX." That would encourage more prompt mushrooming, hopefully moving CG forward faster for increased stability. Anyone can do that with a hand tool, it does not require BBBMT, Ltd. wizardry.  .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Seems even the Norma .458 Win.Mag. brass at MidwayUSA is all sold out, even though it costs more than twice as much as the impeccable Hornady brass. I have 50 pieces of Norma .458 WIN MAG brass. I just measured weights and H20 gross capacity on a sample of 5 pieces of that. At-least-once-fired, averaging 2.489" long, case weight averages only 214.9 grains. H2O gross capacity is 98.8 grains ! That is over 20 grains of brass lighter and over 4 grains of water greater capacity than the other brands of brass I have for the .458 WIN MAG. Hornady: 242.3 gr brass, 94.3 gr H2O R-P: 236.1 gr brass, 94.2 gr H20 W-W: 238.5 gr brass, 94.4 gr H2O Norma: 214.9 gr brass, 98.8 gr H2O Call the Norma brass 99 grains of water versus the QuickLOAD default of 95 grains. If Norma can make .375 Weatherby brass that is outstanding and has a similar greater capacity than other makes (W-W, R-P, Hornady fireformed), then the .458 WIN MAG brass by Norma ought to be useable if you can find it. I'll keep looking. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Norma claims 94.7-gr water capacity for their brass, in their RELOADING MANUAL #2. Maybe I have a sample of brass from an aberrant lott? Here is some Norma graphics about the grain structure of brass getting smaller-grained and harder with work, then being transformed to larger-grained and softer with annealing: 
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It gets really good when you look at the Norma load data with the .458 WIN MAG 3.340" in a 24" barrel (1:14") compared to their .458 Lott 3.600" in a 26" barrel (1:14") and both loaded to same pressure (4300 bar CIP for both) and the .458 WIN MAG thrashes the .458 Lott. | |||
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.458 Winchester Magnum CIP is a .458 WIN+P by SAAMI standards. Norma load data for 3.340" COL:    | |||
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.458 Lott load data from Norma:   | |||
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Only 3 bullets were shown for the .458 Lott in the Norma manual. A "special" REDUCED LOAD for the 350-grainer is listed, max and min are the same powder charge, COL is 3.682 "  (? Typo ?)and velocity of 1991 fps is +500 fps to +600 fps slower than the .458 WIN minimum (2500 fps) and maximum (2595 fps) with same bullet. That is with a 2" shorter barrel in the .458 WIN MAG at COL of 2.933". That is SPECIAL ! A load perfected for .458 Lott shooters who cannot handle the recoil of a .458 Winchester Magnum. I spare THE MISSION from the comments sections on both cartridges above, which are just the same old cliches and speculations that we have beaten to death here. One comment did slip through on the last page of the .458 Winchester Magnum loads, repeated here for emphasis:  That comment applies to the .458 Winchester Magnum, not the .458 Lott. Allow the .458 WIN+P to exceed 3.340" COL and we have the .458 WIN+P+ homologation. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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That's no Typo RIP. That is a specific "reduced" load and that is the only "reduced" load with that powder they felt good about I think. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Hopefully the one powder charge is correct. Surely a typo on the COL. They also list COL as 81.8 mm which is 3.220", probably correct. The bullet length is only 0.935" for the Hornady InterLock 350-grain RN SP. For a COL of 3.682" with 2.8" brass, seating depth would be 0.053". Just a bit insufficient. Does this mean Norma finds the .458 Lott boring and fell asleep while compiling that section ? Understandable, compared to the ever-exciting .458 Winchester Magnum. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Yep. We can all say a prayer for the poor Lottite fellow that died of A broken heart, or maybe choked to death because of a throat constriction, when he read those two pages in his new reloading manual during editing. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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RIP, i'll have 'Rube' the 458 Win Mag 3.600 +P+ back from JES and ready to test this Winter, will be fun seeing how fast I can push those 450gr BBW solids and TSX's with H-335. Even with max loads listed on Hodgdons website, it's one of the lower pressure powders, will be looking for accuracy at a minimum of 2450 fps, should make a hell of a bangup combo for ALL game, anywhere. | |||
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Jerry, That is great support of THE MISSION. Bob and The Maz have been loading H335 with good results. I have used H335 with good results for heavy-bullet .223 deer-killer loads, nice-antlered buck at 300 yards (at a reclaimed coal strip mine pasture). Nevertheless I cannot do it all, having been sidetracked by AA-2230 and AA-2460 as my ball powders for the .458 WIN. Buy a donkey for any loads you might add with H335.  Review of the Hodgdon Annual Manual Loads [Top left corner includes one load for the .45-70 (Modern Rifle, 24" barrel) with Speer 400-gr JHP, Winchester case, CCI-200 primer, at 2.540" COL)]:  The 450-gr Swift AF loads at 3.340" COL are notably "sticky" bullets prone to raise pressure. The CEB brass FN is slick, with low start pressure. Ditto the Barnes Banded and Woodleigh HYDRO 450-grainers, which are easier to load to longer COL. 450-grainer at MV 2450 fps >>> 5997 ft-lbs 2451 fps >>> 6002 ft-lbs Always go for that extra 1 fps. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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What kind of POI or velocity changes do you see between 80*F, 55*F and 30*F with those ball powders? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Early on in THE MISSION, member stradling did some pretty impressive testing of AA-2230. Good enough for me, and Western Powders claims AA-2230 and AA-2460 were reformulated for improved THERMO-BALLISTIC-INDEPENDENCE, circa 2016. Previously unheard of with ball powders, from what little I know, that is the only reason I prefer them to H335. Same reason I like the Hodgdon Extreme powders. In the past I did bother to look at Varget versus RL-15, and H4350 versus IMR-4350. About 2-fold worse TBI with RL-15 and IMR-4350, versus Hodgdon's Varget and H4350, IIRC. RL-16 was supposed to have great TBI, from testing found on the web. | |||
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Penance for a past sin: I once necked down 100 of the R-P .458 WIN cases to .416 Taylor, I fired 35 of them before getting some proper headstamp from Quality Cartridge. Overjoyed to find the shiny 65 cases, I dipped the necks in graphite and necked them up to .458 using an RCBS .375-.458 neck expander die. I then FL sized them, and then annealed them by a 5-second spin in a propane torch flame and water drop. The marks of necking up after necking down are still there but could be shined out by a stainless steel pin tumbler, after a couple of firings. Then they will join the other twice-fired R-P cases I have for a batch. These "reformed sinners" are all about 2.490" long, but expected to grow in their faith to full 2.500" character:  BTW, I experimented with dipping the case necks into 700*F lead melt (first dipping necks in 3-IN-1 oil), but after a few of those decided the adherent lead specs were a mess. Went back to propane torch. | |||
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I have an older set of RCBS .458 Winchester Magnum dies that has a much shorter seater-crimper die than this newer one:  Does this suggest that RCBS responded years ago to the great popularity of the .458 WIN+P+ homologation ? The longer seater die is handy. | |||
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Speaking of handiness and versatility of the .458 WIN+P+:  Not much bloodied, copperhead may have been scared to death by the blast and impact. Yes, the air smelled like snakes, like cucumbers. | |||
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After the 45th Anniversary Colt M-4 celebration:  The .458 WIN+P+ can impress more than just snakes. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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Yes, like minds RIP, I've used H335 in 223/5.56's for ages, also use CFE-223 in them AND the dreaded 416 Taylor, it will indeed launch 400gr Partitions at a real 2400 fps with excellent accuracy. H335 is about all I have to work with in the 458 WM +P+, 30 fps velocity rise or fall is of no concern to me, as I'm sure max range will never exceed 300 yards, I simply cant hold that difference in the field or bench. The bullets for 'Rube' will indeed be the 450gr BBW solid and TSX, it's going to be a hell of a fun Wintertime project after hunting season. | |||
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Nice nomenclature there, Jerry. But come to think of it, +P+ might be too much emphasis on pressure, which may indeed be less than the MAP or Pmax of the SAAMI .458 Lott. Probably the most accurate designation would be ".458 Winchester Magnum +P +L." +P for mildly increased pressure over 60,000 psi, +L for any increased COL over 3.340". Shorten that to ".458 WM+P+L" spoken as ".458 Whimple." BTW, the mushroom cloud caused by the impact of a .458 WM+P+L bullet was a tall tale. It was actually a spontaneous meteorological phenomenon, maybe helped along by a steam cloud from a coal-fired power plant 30 miles away, or a God Wink at the success of the .458 WM+P+L. | |||
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Hard to beat that combo. .458 Winchester Magnum Perfection In maxima potentia parvum spatium. Id venit et vicit omnis. | |||
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For interest's sake in comparison with Hodgdon's data for the 350gr Speer: I finally located a couple boxes of the 350gr Speer last week, loaded up some starting at 70 grains H4198 (1), then 71 graons (1), and finally 72 grains H4198 (3). I already knew the results from 70 grains behind the 350 Hornady FT, Winchester brass and WLRM primers = +/- 2500 fps corrected and easily MOA. I tried that load early on in the #1 Ruger as it had worked well in the CZ550. So I started there with the 350 Speer last week in the Ruger. 70 grs = 2503 fps (corrected to MV) 71 grs = 2536 fps (corrected to MV) 72 grs = 2556, 2606, 2584 = 2582 avg, corrected to MV. 3 into 1.5" from my #1 Ruger. COL @ 3.26". Hornady brass used 7x. WLRM primers. Temp @ +20C/69F I've now loaded 5 at 71 grains for testing next week. I believe it has promise for good things. A tougher bullet than the 400gr Speer and 405gr Remington. And better BC than the 350gr Hornady FT and RN. Thought someone might be interested. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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458 Win Mag? Do you mean the 458 Belted Newton?  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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So what advantage can be gained by running a .458 reamer down a Lott chamber? Can it be done? Should it be done? How is it a man with fifteen rounds of 5.56 feels under equipped and a man with fifteen rounds of .375 hasn't a worry in the world? | |||
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Bob, Buy a donkey for the testing with H4198 and the good 350-gr Speer at specified 3.260" COL. That powder was not included in the latest Speer manual, same bullet at 3.105" COL. Review:  | |||
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