And also in the coned breech of an ‘03

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
And also in the coned breech of an ‘03

From which the M70 is copied ...

Rip ...

but made correctly the cone breach is very effective

Barnes X type bullets would be the go for any parallel case lie 458.

The Model 70 Super Grade 458s I had fed fine with 400 grain Speer flat nose bullets.

Centre line feed as with any of the 378 based calibres in Mark V Weatherby is best. From memory the 224 Varmintmaster was a centreline feed, just like a smaller version of the 378 based Mark Vs

center line feed like the Sauer 404
but its only made in 404 jeffery
and the cost is 8000 +

I looked through the digital and paper editions of THE GUN DIGEST that I have shelved here, 1944 through 2020.
The tabulations of ballistics and prices for ammo can be used to track the .458 WIN starting in 1957.
Info published there may be one or two years behind the publishing date. Usually just one year.

From 1957 through 1964 the .458 WIN is contained in a separate listing by maker: "WINCHESTER C.F. CARTRIDGES -- BALLISTICS AND PRICES"
Price is for a 20-count box.

1957:
500-gr F.P., 2125 fps, $7.20
510-gr S.P., 2125 fps, $11.00 (probably a mix-up on prices, "Full Patch" are more expensive than "Soft Point" thereafter)
.
.
.
1960:
500-gr F.P., 2125 fps, $11.60
510-gr S.P., 2125 fps, $7.60

1961:
500-gr F.P., 2125 fps, $11.60
510-gr S.P., 2130 fps, $7.60 (price did not change, but MV of 510-gr SP went up by 5 fps, 500-gr FP unchanged)

1962:
500-gr F.P., 2125 fps, $12.15
510-gr S.P., 2130 fps, $7.95 (Inflation of the Roaring Sixties !)

1963:
500-gr F.P., 2130 fps, $12.15
510-gr S.P., 2130 fps, $7.95 (Now both soft and solid are listed at same MV again, 2130 fps.)

1964: No change in price this year. No change in MV until "THE GREAT SLOW DOWN OF 1981-1982."

By 1974, the tables were conglomerations of multiple makers and prices "approximate."

1974:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $19.40 (Now called "Metal Case" bullet.)
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $12.80 (Still called "Soft Point" bullet.)

1975:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $20.10
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $13.20

1976: No changes.

1977:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $26.90
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $17.70 (Prices really hiked. Probably because President Jimmy Carter was micro-managing by then.)

1978:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $28.90
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $19.05

1979:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $30.05
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $19.85

1980:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $32.35
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $21.30

1981:
500-gr MC, 2130 fps, $36.10
510-gr SP, 2130 fps, $23.80 (This was the last "American Bulleted Cartridges" update by Ken Waters.)

1982:
500-gr FMC, MC, 2040 fps, $40.05
510-gr SP, SP, 2040 fps, $26.40

As of 1982: Winchester and Remington are only makers specified.
"Full Metal Case" is an added descriptor with double descriptions of both bullets. MV crashed.
Ed Metunas takes over the typing of the reviews preceding the tables.

1983: $44.60 & $29.40
1984: $47.00 & $31.00
1985: $49.40 & $32.55
1986: $34.05 & $34.05 ! Soft and solid priced the same !
1987: $52.00 for 500-gr solid, $34.45 for soft ... a box of 20 rounds of 460 Wea. Mag. is only $49.95 with unspecified 500-gr bullet.
1988: $42.45 & $28.00 for the .458 Win. Mag. ... $50.00 for the 460 Wea.Mag.

1989:
500-gr FMC, 2040 fps, $29.21
510-fr SP, 2040 fps, $29.21 ... Wow! Deflation ! 460 Wea. Mag. price is now "NA"

1990: Finally some lighter bullet weights for the .458 Win. Mag. A-Square and others ?
350-gr, 2470 fps, $37.00
465-gr, 2220 fps, $47.00
500-gr, 2040 fps, NA
510-gr, 2040 fps, $35.00

1991:
350-gr, 2470 fps, $42.00
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $52.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $35.00

1992:
350-gr, 2470 fps, NA
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $57.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $38.00

1993: New this year, a 400-grainer at 2450 fps.
350-gr, 2470 fps, NA
400-gr, 2450 fps, NA ... (~5332 ft-lbs KE at the muzzle.)
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $57.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $39.00

1994:
350-gr, 2470 fps, NA
400-gr, 2450 fps, NA
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $63.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $40.00 (Now over 100 bucks for a box each of softs and solids)

1995: WHAT ? The 400-grainer in the .458 Win. Mag. is now down-graded to 2380 fps MV and it is MOST EXPENSIVE.
350-gr, 2470 fps, $43.00
400-gr, 2380 fps, $73.00
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $61.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $41.00

1996 through 2012:
No changes from 1995 loads for the .458 Win. Mag. Same, same, same. Very odd.

2013:
The listing of the 350-grainer is gone, the other 4 loads continue unchanged since 1995.
400-gr, 2380 fps, $73.00
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $61.00
510-gr, 2040 fps, $41.00

2014:
Same as 2013.

2015 edition of THE GUN DIGEST:
Finally a 500-grainer at a velocity easily obtained by the modest handload, not maliciously governed down by the Cabal of Lottite conspirators.
Hornady must have brought that out in 2014, one of their "Superformance" loads.
There had been no mention of Hornady's previous HEAVY MAGNUM loads of 2260 fps MV with 500-grainer.
What powder in what pressure barrel to keep it down to 60,000 psi and 3.340" COL?
THE GUN DIGEST ballistic tables had no listing of this in the early years of this century.
This was no doubt due to the conspiracy against the .458 Winchester Magnum.
2015:
400-gr, 2380 fps, $73.00
465-gr, 2220 fps, NA
500-gr, 2040 fps, $61.00
500-gr, 2140 fps, NA
510-gr, 2040 fps, $41.00

2016 through 2020 editions of THE GUN DIGEST:
Same as 2015. Another long dry spell for .458 Win. Mag. developments.
No doubt the Lottite Cabal is alive and well.
There are commercial ammo loaders that do not appear in the tables.
They have some offerings that unleash the full potential of the .458 WIN.
Nowadays, 100 bucks might cover one 20-shot box of ammo, unless you HANDLOAD !
Even then, 100 bucks might barely cover only 20 bullet "heads" like the Woodleigh HYDRO .458/480-grainer.
Hence, Bubba's Bullet Metamorphosis T6 HYDRA and cast bullets.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Barnes X type bullets would be the go for any parallel case lie 458.

The Model 70 Super Grade 458s I had fed fine with 400 grain Speer flat nose bullets.

Centre line feed as with any of the 378 based calibres in Mark V Weatherby is best. From memory the 224 Varmintmaster was a centreline feed, just like a smaller version of the 378 based Mark Vs

This makes me wonder if the "Mauser Cosine Law" is best only for packing the most ammo in the least depth of magazine with good feeding results.
Maybe the relatively skinnier and deeper magazine can be made to feed slicker.
That would sure explain how so many of the fine custom rifles did it with skinny-for-cartridge magazines.

Rip ...

Hornady .458 Winchester Magnum factory ammo stock numbers:
500-gr DGX (85833)
500-gr DGS (8585)
MV for both: 2140 fps

Those must have become available circa 2011-2013, since they were listed in Bob Forker's 2013 5th edition, and not in the 2010 4th edition.



A great way to track the .458 WIN factory load since 2000 is with the Bob Forker series, AMMO & BALLISTICS FOR HUNTERS, SHOOTERS, AND COLLECTORS.
I have the first 5 editions 2000-2013, just ordered 6th edition of 2017.
Will there be a 7th Edition in 2020 ?
I am starting with the 5th Ed. of 2013 and backtracking.
Forker's later editions are bigger and have some filler amongst the loads. From the 5th Ed., bottom of page 307:



Rip ...

Two more excerpts from Bob Forker's 5th Ed. (for book review purposes) follow below:
Book review: Excellent guide for the factory ammo shooter, actually indispensable. Not a handloader's manual,
but it is a great source for BC numbers, etc., that even the handloader will find useful.
The 5th Edition book contains "over 190 Calibers and over 2600 Different Loads"
with ballistics for all factory centerfire and rimfire cartridges for handguns and rifles, all in only 518 pages.
Plus some filler:
A famous .458 WIN Rifleman who also collects antiques:



And here is why it is best to stick to the .458 WIN when culling elephant:

That is very a quite good data presentation RIP

from your - first on this thread -early posts

I have noted your thinking and reporting to be spot on

quote:

Huvius

respectfully....... sir

bet you have an Iphone -- get any one of those any rifles, dump the rack --video it as best you can ---in the bright afternoon sun - then post it here

show us your cattle


I can see your hat from here

stradling,

Buy a donkey for the flowers, my pleasure.
Continuing:



The Hornady Heavy Magnum .458 WIN loads were listed in Forker's 4th Edition of 2010, and it was even a DGX and DGS bullet by then,
500-grainers at 2260 fps MV.

SHAZZAM !

Also a Winchester factory load for the Nosler .458/500-grain Partition and monometal solid, BOTH AT 2240 FPS MV, BY WINCHESTER !!!
Yes, they also still loaded Winchester factory loads with 500-gr FMJ and 510-gr SP at 2040 fps.
Here are 4 of the 11 factory .458 Win. Mag. loads listed for this 2010 print edition:



Rip ...

The Hornady Heavy Magnum loads for the .458 Win. Mag. were being offered in 2006, using the pre-DGX/DGS 500-gr bullets at 2260 fps:



Forker's 3rd Edition of 2006 was interesting for the 15 factory loads for the .458 WIN that are listed on pages 271-273.
6 of the 15 were discontinued in 2004 and 2005, documented here:







Will check on Forker 2nd Edition of 2003,
and Forker First Edition of 2000
and Forker 6th Edition of 2017 ... later.

Rip ...

Cool to see fellow member Cal Papas in that pic of the recoil from the 600 NE with the fish net lol

HA !
Cal wanted to catch that .600 NE
with the fish net if his victim
let go of it.
Alaskan gravel and moose turds, you know.

Rip ...

Indeed on that logic RIP. It was no Joke by the owner, it was preservation planning for the rifle.

The .458 Win Mag has some interesting history, that's for sure. Sadly, some of it was botched by fear and ignorance, and latterly by prejudice!

Hopefully, these pages will correct a lot of that, especially for those who want the truth!

Good work RIP. Keep it coming!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

if I may had
I had 4 458. one winchester push feed, one ruger 77, on winchester control feed and on ruger no 1

and now I have a 450 Rigby sako brown bear and I must say I will go back with the new winchester safari express
more versatile if you down load and use cast bullewt

one thing I found out is at the same speed the 458 uses les powder and recoil less due to the fact that the extra 30 gr or so to get the same speed in the Rigby is added to the ejecta and that equal about for 2000 fps in the winchester = 66 or so of recoil and to get the same speed in the Rigby I get around 90 of recoil

Next month I will be starting on my fifth decade of guiding bear hunters - and Old Ugly, my trusty 458, is still my rifle of choice.

The 458Win is not the biggest, fastest, most powerful or fashionable but, like the 45acp in the Colt 1911, it has a proven track record.

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:
if I may had
I had 4 458. one winchester push feed, one ruger 77, on winchester control feed and on ruger no 1

and now I have a 450 Rigby sako brown bear and I must say I will go back with the new winchester safari express
more versatile if you down load and use cast bullewt

one thing I found out is at the same speed the 458 uses les powder and recoil less due to the fact that the extra 30 gr or so to get the same speed in the Rigby is added to the ejecta and that equal about for 2000 fps in the winchester = 66 or so of recoil and to get the same speed in the Rigby I get around 90 of recoil

I the 460s I had plus some other 460s 85 grains 4064 and 500 grain Hornady was right on 2000 f/s and vey accurate. To give you idea of how mild the pressure is top loads with 4064 are 104 grains. In th4e 450 Rigby that load might do 2100 f/s as the Rigby is a slightly smaller case although would not be much difference as it is a 416 Improved necked up but it would not have the 3/4" freebore of the 460.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
The .458 Win Mag has some interesting history, that's for sure. Sadly, some of it was botched by fear and ignorance, and latterly by prejudice!
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

AMEN ! That is it in a nutshell.
All Lottites need to look into that mirror.

Fleshing out the history of the .458 WIN factory loads:
I want to finish up the "reviews" of Bob Forker's first and second editions of years 2000 and 2003 while awaiting a copy of sixth edition from 2017.

#1 from year 2000, the cover and the factory loads listed, all inclusive:

Edition 2 from year 2003, all three pages intact with related blurb about .458 WIN, unchanged from first through fifth editions,
and a nice filler photo about Jack O'Connor becoming fifth-ever Grand Slammer of North American wild sheep::









Note the Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid was loaded to a modest MV of 2050 fps.
We should assume 24" barrel length.

Looking back at Edition 3 of 2006 and Edition 4 of 2010,
Winchester factory ammo was offered with the 500-grain Nosler bullets at 2240 fps as well as the old standby Winchester FMC and SP, both at 2040 fps.

Also from 2006 or before, the Hornady Heavy Magnum loads with all of their 500-grain bullets at 2260 fps did not last long.
Do you reckon they did not sell well because Bubba did not like the increased recoil?
Oh, well ...

Rip ...

On "recoil efficiency" of the .458 WIN noted by canuck4570 comparing it to his .450 Rigby:

There is a book (including tables of recoil comparisons) called CARTRIDGE COMPARISON GUIDE 2 (2012) written by Andrew Chamberlain.



Excerpts for book review, excellent book.



...
...
...

Above:

In the 5,000-5,299 ft-lbs KE bracket:

With 400-gr bullet, the .458 WIN produces higher velocity at lower recoil than the .450 Rigby.

I am sure Finn and Phil would highly recommend some sort of .458/400-gr bullet at +5000 ft-lbs for making bloody big holes plumb through King Kong of Kodiak.

In the 5,300-5,599 ft-lbs KE bracket:

The .458 WIN 500-grainer at 2200 fps beats the .416 Rigby 410-grainer at 2415 fps in these ways:

Energy
Momentum
Sectional Density
Bloody Bigger Hole
and
LESS RECOIL

Rip ...

Here is the single page (174) of Andrew Chamberlain's +300-page book, from which above excerpts were taken,
for those who wish to consider "recoil efficiency" of some other loads:



This book is a Magnum Opus of OCD, excellent book, fun book, that's my review, and I am sticking to it.

I have not checked all the calculated numbers in the above page, let alone the the almost 300 pages of other such tables.
There are some pages of prose in the book, and even some pictures,
well over 300 pages total, and well nigh onto 300 pages of tables.
Feel free to check for typos, y'all.

Rip ...

I see that Leupold is no longer selling the Delta Point with the 7.5-MOA triangular "red dot"/reticle.
Just the 2-MOA red dot.

Well, I liked the Burris FASTFIRE on a 10mm Auto Glock 40.
It seems reliable and you can get two FASTFIRE 3 back-up sights for the price of one Leupold.

With the 3-MOA red dot I will just have to try a "fine-bead" target hold on the top edge of the bead to zero at 100 yards.
Then if I use a combat bead hold (center of bead) at 100 yards it will only be 1.5-MOA high at 100 yards.



Add 5 oz for slip-on LOP/recoil pad and 4-round ammo carrier.
Add 2.5 oz for super-fly sling and swivels.
Add 15 oz for 8 rounds of ammo, 4 in rifle, 4 on rifle.
Field ready: 9 lbs 1.5 oz with 8 rounds, butt-heavy and lively !
Field ready: 8 lbs 10 oz with only 4 rounds of ammo in rifle, pretty good balance, and still lively.
Field ready: 8 lbs 2.5 oz with no ammo.
Minus sling and slip-ons and with no ammo: 7 lbs 11 oz, balances on the front action screw,
like a magic wand.

Rip ...

If shooting in the rain, use duct tape to strap the rainhat to the rifle.
Without that, it would sail away with first shot.



Rip ...

Push out the rear sight dovetail on this one and replace it with a solid piece of low Picatinny shaped to dovetail into the slot.
Mount a Burris FASTFIRE 3 there.
Presto, change-O, an overgrown, imitation Smithson Mauser in .450 Dakota:
9.5 pounds
25" barrel
only holds 4 + 1
kicks too hard for the same ballistics a .458 WIN can deliver,
kicks way too hard for greater ballistics than the .458 WIN can deliver.
Worse than a .450 Rigby, not quite as bad as a .460 Weatherby.

FOR SALE:


Rip ...

400 is a great do all weight minus the toughest of game.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

quote:

Huvius

respectfully....... sir

bet you have an Iphone -- get any one of those any rifles, dump the rack --video it as best you can ---in the bright afternoon sun - then post it here

show us your cattle


I can see your hat from here

I will give that a try.
It will have to be a 10.75x68 as that is the closest thing to a big bore bolt gun I have right now.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but in the video, it appears that he cycles four times starting with a chambered round (not the full mag of six) and shortens the forward stroke so the rounds aren't even chambering.
Forward just enough for the belt to clear the rails and allow ejection and lift of the next cartridge.

RIP, your love of all things 458 WM has made you look more youthful... Have you discovered the fabled Fountain of Youth?

quote:

posted Mar 20, 8:55 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
quote:
Huvius



respectfully....... sir

bet you have an Iphone -- get any one of those any rifles, dump the rack --video it as best you can ---in the bright afternoon sun - then post it here

show us your cattle


I can see your hat from here


I will give that a try.
It will have to be a 10.75x68 as that is the closest thing to a big bore bolt gun I have right now.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but in the video, it appears that he cycles four times starting with a chambered round (not the full mag of six) and shortens the forward stroke so the rounds aren't even chambering.
Forward just enough for the belt to clear the rails and allow ejection and lift of the next cartridge.

The rifle was loaded with six standard length 458 wm cartridges made up using the hornady 500 grain solids

in addition the rifle was loaded with six winchester brass NEW and 500 grain Barns monolithic solids

Brett Is dumping the rack--- starting with a full gun--- bolt locked up with one in the chamber and 5 [five]
down

HERE IS ONE MORE VIDEO SLOWED DOWN AS SLOW AS I CAN MAKE IT GO

COUNT EM NOW AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK



It's all over --- he is dun and gone -- in about 2-3 seconds

six up and six down

all of em every time

please do do that movie I LEARN SOMETHING EVERY DAY

WE THEN WILL go out and film some unloading of the rifles on the range in the live fire mode

that will make some fun to watch video

HERE IS WHAT A BOX OF 458 WM AMMO LOOKS LIKE



NOT 20 TO THE BOX BUT RATHER 224 ROUNDS

Ready for the weekend hope it don't rain me out

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

HERE IS WHAT A BOX OF 458 WM AMMO LOOKS LIKE



NOT 20 TO THE BOX BUT RATHER 224 ROUNDS

Ready for the weekend hope it don't rain me out

Are you getting ready to shoot in Australia.

WOW!!
OK, I stand corrected.

Slowed down that video is much better and way more impressive.

I will still give ‘er a go with my TypeA and see just what I can do.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I see that Leupold is no longer selling the Delta Point with the 7.5-MOA triangular "red dot"/reticle.
Just the 2-MOA red dot.

Well, I liked the Burris FASTFIRE on a 10mm Auto Glock 40.
It seems reliable and you can get two FASTFIRE 3 back-up sights for the price of one Leupold.

With the 3-MOA red dot I will just have to try a "fine-bead" target hold on the top edge of the bead to zero at 100 yards.
Then if I use a combat bead hold (center of bead) at 100 yards it will only be 1.5-MOA high at 100 yards.



Add 5 oz for slip-on LOP/recoil pad and 4-round ammo carrier.
Add 2.5 oz for super-fly sling and swivels.
Add 15 oz for 8 rounds of ammo, 4 in rifle, 4 on rifle.
Field ready: 9 lbs 1.5 oz with 8 rounds, butt-heavy and lively !
Field ready: 8 lbs 10 oz with only 4 rounds of ammo in rifle, pretty good balance, and still lively.
Field ready: 8 lbs 2.5 oz with no ammo.
Minus sling and slip-ons and with no ammo: 7 lbs 11 oz, balances on the front action screw,
like a magic wand.

Rip ...

What or whose front sight is that? I need aight options door my 358STA build

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP, your love of all things 458 WM has made you look more youthful... Have you discovered the fabled Fountain of Youth?

That iconic photo is not of me, it represents the .458 WIN.
Need one rifle to take any game in the world ? The .458 WIN is your huckleberry, pick it for fast and deadly handling of all comers.
Pick the .458 WIN always. You'll be a daisy if you do, and you won't be pushing up daisies.



Rip ...

Only about 25 pounds of .458 WIN ammo with light bullets.
Better than Viagra:



Rip ...

LHeym500,

That front sight on Marcella is from a CZ .458 WIN barrel that had been butchered to .458 Lott.
At least I saved something useful from that barrel.
The story was told previously on this thread.
From page 168, right after I beat it onto the barrel with JB Weld to grease the fitting:



On page 172, I replaced bead with a patridge from NECG:



The search function is handy.
I mangled the CZ ramp a bit getting it off. Had to file off the back end of the ramp, shortening it some, squaring it up.
Marcella wears her scars proudly.
The sight is fully functional, and I think JB Weld is better than solder.
You cannot bed an action in a stock with solder.

Rip ...