quote:

Originally posted by admiral:
The Belgium Ramshot X-Terminator was slower than the old Accurate 2230 and produced more pressure, both having 72.0 gr. listed as the max load in their data.

Thanks Admiral for that info. Since it's likely that if X-Terminator is available anywhere in our area it would be of the Belgium original/older type, it would be too slow for my purposes. I'll pass for now.

RIP, re 1680: The loads I tried under the 300 TSX never showed abnormally high pressure even though extreme spread and accuracy was not good enough for my goals. But 84.5 grs showed promise. 85.5 gave 2954 fps/5812 ft-lbs corrected with case head expansion of 3/10,000 which is safe in my view and experience. BUT! When I shot the load of 86 grains THAT was a huge surprise! 3100 fps (corrected) 6400 ft-lbs! That was a jump of 146 fps! Even then case head expansion was not a threat-- I reused the case. Several of the heavyweight top loads were its equal. And the 2230 load for the 500gr Speer at 2311 fps exceeded it in case head expansion. That one I did mark as "too hot". Just a view of 1680 through my window.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
That is some good poop on AA-1680.
I might try those powder charges with 250-grainers instead of 300-grainers.
More powders and bullets (store-bought AND home-made) are most useful in the .458 WIN than any other cartridge I can think of.
The .458 Lott might have a slight edge with the light-weight bullets though,
and as a substitute for the .410 shotgun with birdshot.
It is a shame that MR thinks 400-gr/.458 bullets are for nitwits with .458 WIN rifles, or .45-70 shooters.
They might be most excellent for nitwits with .458 Lott rifles,
especially if they have the SAAMI .458 Lott throat cleaned up by running a SAAMI .458 WIN reamer into them up to the belt.

Member MoreBS has done some good work here,
shortening the .411/ 300-gr TSX bullets to lighter weights:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/4021012852


He might be using a lathe instead of the files and trim dies of Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technology.
His work is similar to conversion of the terminally unstable .458/ 500-gr TSX into 400-grainers by shortening at base,
and fine tuning weight by chamfering and drilling the hollow points.



Now I am thinking that simply drill-press-filing 20-grains of weight off the base of the 500-gr TSX
might be worth trying for a 480-grainer.
Of course the nose/ogive shortening works beautifully,
and allows for much greater shortening,
but a pointier 480-grainer might be interesting too,
for long-range large varmint shooting with the .458 WIN.
BBM might add a 10th bullet to this line of T6 bullets:



It will be a 480-grainer with no nose shortening,
so it will be longer than 1.557", iffy for terminal stability.

Fortunately the readily available range of .458 monometal copper bullets includes good ones in 250-gr, 300-gr, 350-gr, and 450-gr.
I would prefer not wasting any of the 450-grainers in conversion to 400-grainers.

Conversion of 500-gr TSX to 400-gr and 480-gr is a much happier thing.

Rip ...

Hey guys,

Here's what Buffalo Bore Ammunition has to say about the .458WM...

“DANGEROUS GAME” 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
450 gr. Barnes TSX @ 2,200 fps / 4,835 ft-lbs
20-Round Box


BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

ITEM 458 Win Mag DG 450 TSX

"In my mind, true Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality.

458 diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in 458. The bullet diameter alone, even with solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 450 gr. TSX load is the answer if you want an expanding bullet that will penetrate deeply enough for taking Cape Buffalo. Remember that this all copper 450 gr. bullet is longer than a typical premium lead-based cup and core bullets of 500 grs. This also means this cartridge with its somewhat limited powder capacity, the seated bullet length limits powder capacity even more and thus velocity, slightly. That trade-off is worth it as the way TSX bullets perform terminally, cannot be bested by any expanding bullet I know of. Normally, I can get shorter lead-based bullets of 450 grs. to achieve around 2,200 fps in the 458 Winchester Magnum. This load generates 2,140 fps in my 18-inch barreled 458. I could have added a couple more grains of powder and compressed the crap out of it with the seated bullet to achieve 2,200 fps, but I do not care for the practice of heavily compressing powder charges with the bullet. This load is slightly compressed, but not heavily compressed.

My 18-inch rifle shoots this bullet slightly faster than my 22-inch rifle. Why? Please read this article “Velocity Versus Barrel Length”. My 18-inch rifle sports an old highly custom Marquart barrel as I had this rifle made over 30 years ago, for kicking around in Coastal Alaska. My 22-inch rifle is a factory Winchester and simply does not have as slick/fast a barrel.


458 Rifles

➤ 2,105 fps -- Winchester, 22-inch
➤ 2,141 fps -- Custom made, 18-inch

Also, I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the “heavier is better” crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply, AS A GENERAL RULE, if all else is equal.

Shooters often say stupid things and I’ve heard several of them say that 2,100 fps with a 450 gr. bullet is just a glorified +P 45-70. Um, no! When I load this 450 gr. bullet in a 45-70 case, to max +P velocities, I barely get 1750 fps……..which by the way, I would use in Africa on Cape Buffalo without hesitation, but I’d prefer 2,100fps if I had the option.

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSX option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I’ll be doing that in 2022) I’ll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.

We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.

This is serious ammo for serious applications. Use it with confidence. Thank you."


They also mention it a bit under the .458 Lott section too, but this bit is my favourite...

"The 458 Lott is simply a lengthened 458 Win. Mag., so this discussion will include both at times. If the 458 Winchester Magnum has any deficiencies for hunting Africa’s Big Five, (and it really does not, inside 150 yards) the 458 Lott eliminates those deficiencies."

Hope this is suitable FOR THE MISSION.

Thanks BBM. Many good points in this post.

The uninformed may be confused, but RIP should like it.

Saami Specs:
Saami Lott

Saami 458 Mag

I compared the .458 Lott blurb at Buffalo Bore to their .458 WIN blurb.
Mr. Buffalo Bore wrote the .458 Lott blurb in 02/2020, last month. He claims:

"We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear in my 20’s, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets @ 2,500 fps and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life."

Does this mean that Barnes is making a 400-gr TSX starting in 2020 ?
That would be good news if true.
Mr. Buffalo Bore goes on to describe some gyrations about the .458 Lott COL:

"SAAMI gives a maximum cartridge OAL (over-all-length) of 3.600 inches for the 458 Lott cartridge. Because of where Barnes places the crimp groove on this bullet, we have an OAL of 3.617 inches (+/-.005) or .017 inch over SAAMI. These loads fit the magazine boxes of both my test rifles with the CZ having over a half-inch extra room. The Montana Rifle Company magazine box accepts the cartridge and functions flawlessly in feeding/cycling, but there is no room to spare. I doubt any magazine boxes are going to be so tight that .017 inch will matter, but I wanted to publish these specs…"

So Mr. Buffalo Bore had to break SAAMI spec for his .458 Lott load,
but not on the .458 WIN.


BTW, my 1980-vintage Ruger No.1 .458 WIN was slugged.
Groove diameter is 0.459", 8-grooved, 1:14" Twist.
As expected, she is still called "Daisy."

Rip ...

I'll take Daisy and a good FN 485 Cast sized .461, push it 1750 or faster, and I'll be any NA big game's Huckleberry. And a very happy Huckleberry at that.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
LHeym500,

That front sight on Marcella is from a CZ .458 WIN barrel that had been butchered to .458 Lott.
At least I saved something useful from that barrel.
The story was told previously on this thread.
From page 168, right after I beat it onto the barrel with JB Weld to grease the fitting:



On page 172, I replaced bead with a patridge from NECG:



The search function is handy.
I mangled the CZ ramp a bit getting it off. Had to file off the back end of the ramp, shortening it some, squaring it up.
Marcella wears her scars proudly.
The sight is fully functional, and I think JB Weld is better than solder.
You cannot bed an action in a stock with solder.

Rip ...

Thank you. I have learned a lot from this thread.

“DANGEROUS GAME” 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
450 gr. Barnes TSX @ 2,200 fps / 4,835 ft-lbs
20-Round Box


BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

ITEM 458 Win Mag DG 450 TSX

"In my mind, true Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality.

458 diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in 458. The bullet diameter alone, even with solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 450 gr. TSX load is the answer if you want an expanding bullet that will penetrate deeply enough for taking Cape Buffalo. Remember that this all copper 450 gr. bullet is longer than a typical premium lead-based cup and core bullets of 500 grs. This also means this cartridge with its somewhat limited powder capacity, the seated bullet length limits powder capacity even more and thus velocity, slightly. That trade-off is worth it as the way TSX bullets perform terminally, cannot be bested by any expanding bullet I know of. Normally, I can get shorter lead-based bullets of 450 grs. to achieve around 2,200 fps in the 458 Winchester Magnum. This load generates 2,140 fps in my 18-inch barreled 458. I could have added a couple more grains of powder and compressed the crap out of it with the seated bullet to achieve 2,200 fps, but I do not care for the practice of heavily compressing powder charges with the bullet. This load is slightly compressed, but not heavily compressed.

Also, I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the “heavier is better” crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply, AS A GENERAL RULE, if all else is equal.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSX option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I’ll be doing that in 2022) I’ll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.


"The 458 Lott is simply a lengthened 458 Win. Mag., so this discussion will include both at times. If the 458 Winchester Magnum has any deficiencies for hunting Africa’s Big Five, (and it really does not, inside 150 yards) the 458 Lott eliminates those deficiencies."


______________________________________________________________________________________________________


I would be among the first to thank Barnes if they are making a 400 TSX. It's well past time.

But on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 as highest score), I give Buffalo Bore a 5. I'm simply NOT impressed with that 450 TSX ammo when a knowledgeable/experienced .458 Win Mag handloader can get from 2350 to 2450 fps from a 450gr in a 24" barrel.

And someone has not been reading this thread with any insight if they are still trying to make us believe that the 458 Lott is superior to the .458 Win Mag in ballistics -- which has been PROVEN to be a LIE!! A deception!

And as to 500s always failing to maintain a straight course through flesh and bone -- that also is simply NOT TRUE of ALL 500s. And furthermore, the notion that the Lott will do that better than the .458 WIN because of higher velocity is another repeated deception!

I'm not negative of modest loads in my .458 Win Mag, I use them, but to suggest that the BUFFALO BORE load of 2200 fps for the 450 Barnes TSX is the best it can do, while the Lott can do much better, annoys me!

So, I think I'll change the grade of 5 to an "F".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hey guys,
I hope my post wasn’t misinterpreted - I’m the staunchest .458 fan out there!

I just thought that Buffalo Bore ammo had largely positive stuff to say about the .458 which I wasn’t really expecting...

And for the following quote:

The 458 Lott is simply a lengthened 458 Win. Mag., so this discussion will include both at times. If the 458 Winchester Magnum has any deficiencies for hunting Africa’s Big Five, (and it really does not, inside 150 yards) the 458 Lott eliminates those deficiencies."

The part I liked was when it was written that the .458 has no deficiencies when it comes to dangerous game. But we all knew that anyway...

Long live the .458!

Cheers,

Russ

Tim Sundles, at Buffalo Bore , has assured me that Barnes is again making the 400 gr TSX .458

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Tim Sundles, at Buffalo Bore , has assured me that Barnes is again making the 400 gr TSX .458

Great news!

A 400 TSX would be perfect for my purposes as an all-rounder. Easy to push it to 2500 + fps. I hope it has a decent BC, about .330 or so? But by the time it makes it to Canada we can only hope that it doesn't take a half-dozen years!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

badboymelvin;

I was not reproaching you. I've read your comments and article on the .458 and greatly appreciated it! And I respect those who use the .458 Win at nominal speeds, or less. I use it at .45-70 velocities at times depending on what I want to achieve. And I had a close friend who lived and worked in Kenya for +40 years. He took one of the original M70 Winchester Africans in .458 with him and shot all kinds of DG (mostly elephant and Cape buff) with it until hunting was shut down. He was not a handloader but used factory 500s and 510s (solids and softs) without any complaints or failures. That was in the early '60s to mid '70s.

So I get annoyed with all the complaining over the supposed "failures" of the .458 Win in Africa.

But this is a reloading forum (Accurate Reloading) and we share results from our experiences. When I first came on this forum a decade ago, I shared my experience in handloading a CZ 550 with its 25" barrel, and was severely rebuked by moderators and participants alike. It was during the peak of hoopla over the .458 Lott. I left the forum but continued to do my own research and testing -- and some hunting with the CZ550. I also produced a handloading manual on the .458 Winchester Magnum and started a blog which has been ongoing for over a decade.

And I continued reading what others were saying on forums, including this one. Stradling mentioned my name and "stuff" to RIP, so I've returned here to listen to others and hopefully contribute something of worth.

Of course, at, or near, the commencement of this thread there were "the many" naysayers, again promoting the Lott as better and superior. Thanks to the mammoth work of RIP they have mostly retreated into the woodwork.

I'm not promoting the NEED to use the .458 WIN to its utmost power from handloads, but what I have promoted all along in my manual and blogs is how versatile it is, and that there is none BETTER!

I agree with you on that point. But I will defend it against those who belittle it or proclaim without fact or reason that the Lott is "better".

Just recently I wrote (again) in a blog that the .458 Win Mag is "better than ever" with new powders and bullets. And that has been amply demonstrated by RIP's prodigious work.

I want to say that I respect and appreciate anyone who promotes truth in whatever field, as long as they demonstrate through knowledge and experience that they know what they're claiming to be factual.

For many years I've had great respect for Phil Shoemaker, and had some correspondence with him years ago when he read my first draft on the .45-70. He was busy with his job, but when the season ended he sent me a letter of encouragement. I had been a fan of his articles in the Wolfe publications. And I expect (when he gets time) he will write a book or two. I'll gladly head the lineup that awaits his volume (s) on bears and the firearms he's used. Bears and hunting them is my favorite topic... of course for myself, that's the blacks only as we don't have grizzly or browns in Ontario.

Another person on this thread that I've come to have immense appreciation and respect for is the one who has made it what it is -- that is RIP (Ron) of course.

But I learn from, and am thankful for, any who have contributed positive "food for thought". Thanks to all.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I'll take Daisy and a good FN 485 Cast sized .461, push it 1750 or faster, and I'll be any NA big game's Huckleberry. And a very happy Huckleberry at that.

Buy a donkey.
Yep, that would make for a very happy Huckleberry.
Also, Daisy can do imitations of Selous and Quigley loads with BP and paper patch,
or switch over to warp drive for Super-Nitro-Express ballistics with smokeless and powder-coat-painted hard lead, or the latest high-tech bullet.
She is versatile, as the Bob quote by Mike said to start this page of THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Bob,

I am sure glad you said the below, as my spleen was a bit spent on MR, but it has recovered.
Well said:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
I would be among the first to thank Barnes if they are making a 400 TSX. It's well past time.

But on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 as highest score), I give Buffalo Bore a 5. I'm simply NOT impressed with that 450 TSX ammo when a knowledgeable/experienced .458 Win Mag handloader can get from 2350 to 2450 fps from a 450gr in a 24" barrel.

And someone has not been reading this thread with any insight if they are still trying to make us believe that the 458 Lott is superior to the .458 Win Mag in ballistics -- which has been PROVEN to be a LIE!! A deception!
AMEN !
And as to 500s always failing to maintain a straight course through flesh and bone -- that also is simply NOT TRUE of ALL 500s. And furthermore, the notion that the Lott will do that better than the .458 WIN because of higher velocity is another repeated deception!
Mr. Buffalo Bore was a bit too vague there. He should have specified the length of the monometal copper 500-grain TSX as being the problem.
Even a .460 Wby or .450 Dakota with 1:10" twist and 2500 fps won't do any better with that bullet. Lousy terminal ballistics, great though it might be in air.
I'm not negative of modest loads in my .458 Win Mag, I use them, but to suggest that the BUFFALO BORE load of 2200 fps for the 450 Barnes TSX is the best it can do, while the Lott can do much better, annoys me!
Me too ! I as hinting at that when noting that he exceeded SAAMI COL with the .458 Lott to make his misleading point.
So, I think I'll change the grade of 5 to an "F".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Make my assessment of the Buffalo Bore .458 WIN load also a 5F. Sort of like a 4F with the Selective Service Draft Board during the Vietnam Era.

But nevertheless, buy a donkey to Russ for bringing it before THE MISSION Board.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Tim Sundles, at Buffalo Bore , has assured me that Barnes is again making the 400 gr TSX .458

See, Russ has thus got Phil to call Tim to verify that Barnes is making 400-gr TSX bullets now, for the first time ever.
The .458/ 400-gr X-Bullet was slick-sided, then there was an X-Cannelured, never made the TSX transition,
IIRC.

Maybe Barnes will drop the 500-grain TSX and start making a 480-gr TSX.
If they did that, Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Limited will be out of business.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

Also, I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal.

And someone has not been reading this thread with any insight if they are still trying to make us believe that the 458 Lott is superior to the .458 Win Mag in ballistics -- which has been PROVEN to be a LIE!! A deception!

Perhaps a explanation of the mechanics of stability and spin stabilization would be in order as it would explain and disprove many of the statements and assumptions made above !

The ~1.47"-long and bluntish/cup-point .458"/ 480-grain Woodleigh HYDRO made of brass shoots through camels and elephants like a laser, 2100 fps MV.

The ~1.52"-long and pointy .458"/ 450-gr Barnes TSX made of copper is faultless in terminal ballistics according to Buffalo Bore,
and everyone else in the world.

The ~1.67"-long and pointy .458"/ 500-gr Barnes TSX made of copper has been faulted by some as not being able to stay straight through the first bucket of water in a simple water trap.

Somewhere between 1.52"-long/450-gr and 1.67"-long/500-gr must be the maximum weight and length for a monometal copper TSimprovedX (T6) bullet,
says Bubba.

Rip ...

Let us hope that Barnes optimizes that .458/ 400-gr TSX for the .458 WIN, same nose projection as on the 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TSX currently.
That allows a 3.340" COL when seated as deeply as possible to crimp on first cannelure in 2.500" brass.

That way it will cause fits of rage among the Lottites when they have to shorten their brass to make it fit a 3.600" COL.


However I could be quite happy with a shorter ogive that would be optimized for the .458 Lott,
allowing the Lottites to glory in the 2.800" brass
and 3.600" SAAMI COL.
Barnes could then optimize the second cannelure crimping for the .458 WIN SAAMI COL,
hopefully with at least 4 cannelures total,
for the .458 WIN LongCOL,
hopefully allowing a 3.600" COL for purposes of beating the .458 Lott with 400-grainer.

Flat base, please.

Anywho ...

Barnes Bullets

PHYSICAL ADDRESS
38 North Frontage Road
Mona, UT 84645

MAILING ADDRESS
PO Box 620
Mona, UT 84645

TELEPHONE NUMBERS
(435) 856-1000
(800) 574-9200

EMAIL ADDRESS
For Technical & Load Data Questions:
customerservice@barnesbullets.com

For General Inquiries:
email@barnesbullets.com

PHONE HOURS

M-Th – 7:30am – 5:00pm MST

Please Call for an Appointment (No walk in Business)

Rip ...

I am happy to hear of the 400 grain TSX. I have been hoping for this. I am anxious to see the bullet.

Bob mentioned BC.
Recall the GSC HV, BOL = 1.442":



That 400-grain bullet was an easy +2500 fps MV in my 23" .458 WIN, McGowen barreled, at 3.395" COL.
That exceeds SAAMI COL by only 0.055", and works through every standard-actioned .458 WIN that I have.
Hey ! If Buffalo Bore can load the .458 Lott LongCOL, they ought to do the same for the .458 WIN !




Barnes would do well to make a flat-based, hollow-pointed, 4-cannelured, .458"/ 400-grain TSX of length 1.400" to 1.500" BOL and let the BC fall where it may.

Rip ...

Barnes Bullets is open for telephone calls Mon-Thurs,
IF the Wuhan Woohoo has not shut them down.
No answer telephone call today, Friday.
I am calculating how many rolls of toilet paper I would swap them for one of those .458/ 400-gr TSX bullets during the recovery period when they are open for business.
When I take my dog outside I tell her to "do your business."
This phrase will have new meaning for me since the Wuhan Woohoo.
I would much rather hoard TSX than TP.



With shorter COL in the .458 WIN, less powder may produce higher velocity than .458 WIN LongCOL,
and less recoil than with a .458 Lott if they both reach the same velocity and the .458 WIN COL is less than the .458 Lott COL,
and the ShortCOL .458 WIN has burned less powder than the .458 Lott to attain same velocity.
That is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Rip ...

Copied from the M70 Extreme Weather related thread, about another member's "dream .458 WIN,"
for THE MISSION:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
... Do you know how much weight you shaved by fluting?

http://pac-nor.com/cgi-bin/bweight.cgi

Using the PAC-NOR Barrel Weight Calculator,
IF THEY WOULD flute a PAC-NOR Contour No. 6 .458-caliber barrel, you would lop off 0.59 pound = 9.44 ounces.
(17.5"-long flutes, 6 flutes, on a 26" barrel, similar to the M70 Extreme Weather, if flutes start ~6.75" from breech and end ~1.75" from muzzle)

For a sportier 24" barrel, flute length shortens to 15.5" and weight reduction is 0.52 pound = 8.32 ounces.

So about a half pound.

26"-long, No. 6, .458-cal nonfluted = 3.92 lbs/ fluted = 3.33 lbs
24"-long, No. 6, .458-cal nonfluted = 3.74 lbs/ fluted = 3.22 lbs

No. 5 and No. 4 must surely be too light in contour to flute.

24"-long, No. 5, .458-cal nonfluted = 3.37 lbs: Heavier than fluted No. 6
24"-long, No. 4, .458-cal nonfluted = 3.02 lbs: Lighter than a fluted No. 6

Nonfluted: IMHO, a 23"-long No. 4 sporter (less than 3 pounds) is minimum for a .458 WIN.
24" No. 5 is more usual.
McGowen will do their No. 4 in stainless or chrome-moly.
Shilen's minimum is their No. 5.

Krieger probably wouldn't flute a .458-caliber stainless barrel unless it was a straight cylinder from breech to muzzle ... just sayin'.

I also will say that, in my experience, a FLUTED 26"-long Lilja No. 6 contour .375 barrel in stainless
is about the same weight as a NONFLUTED 26"-long Pac-Nor No. 4 contour .375-cal barrel in stainless.

Rip ...

MR reads this thread like Big Foot scans for pot shop ads in Colorado: Very rarely.



The ammoguide.com has 152 loads for the .458 WIN.
The very first one of the list is by Doc M, Michael McCourry,
pressure tested at McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina:



The second one in the list might be by a 'roo culler in Oz, seems to jive well with Doc M's load. AR-2207 should be same as H4198:



3000 fps with 250-grainer should be easy in the .458 WIN.

And maybe I should just stick with 1700-1800 fps with 480-ish-grain cast loads for Big Foot.
Fury01 suggested SR-4759 previously.
A case full of that bulky-fast powder ought to be accurate:



I only have about 8 pounds of that.
If I run out, IMR-4227 should be very close, add a filler if not as bulky.
Aye, should be a joy to use on anything in North America, from deer on up.



Rip ...

Member stigma has passed on to The Happy Hunting Ground, but he was the most prolific contributor at ammoguide.com, and his data is to be trusted.
The bullet here is the old Barnes X-FB 300-grainer, single cannelure,
of the sort that was replaced by the TSX.
It is short COL, 3.275", and the pressure in CUP is submaximal.
Agrees very well with Bob's black bear load,
with room to workup by COL and powder charge increase with the TSX, as Bob has described:



Regarding the 4 ammoguide.com loads immediately above:
MR not for nitwits !
MR good loads for Marcella and Daisy.

Rip ...

Good stuff RIP -- I will look for a 250gr; I like the looks of that load.

BTW, do you know who that hunter is with the brown bear head mount on his back? I've used it a few times in my blogs, and Phil S. asked if I knew; he seemed to think he recognized him.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Just a reminder to those who have used 500gr - 510gr factory ammo (Winchester?) at about 2040 fps/500gr/4620 ft-lbs, and 2065 fps/510gr/4828 ft-lbs -- those are Winchester's numbers from a 24", and CUP is VERY low at 39,000 cup and 41,000 cup respectively using W748.

From a 22" reduce those MV numbers by around 50 fps.

There's little wonder that such results -- whether factory or handloads -- is giving the Lottites crow fodder.

When I did my series of tests in September/09 at SAAMI COL of 3.34" employing the 500gr Hornady SPRN, I tried the following powders at what I thought would be near max for each based on volume and/or psi.

Rifle: CZ550, 25" barrel
Bullet: 500gr Hornady
COL: 3.34"
Brass:WW
Primer:WLRM
Ambient conditions: elevation = 900 ft; temp = 60 - 65*F

Results: add 14 fps for correction to MV

83 grs W748 = 2066 fps (mild - corrected = 2080. Expected 2200 fps)

78 grs H335 = 2190 fps (mild - corrected = 2204. Expected 2200 fps)

80 grs AA2460 = 2192 fps (mild - corrected = 2206. Expected 2200 fps)

78 grs IMR 4320 = 2151 fps (normal - corrected = 2165. Not max in compression. Expected 2140.)

78 grs Varget = 2144 fps (normal - corrected = 2158. Max in volume. Expected 2175 fps)

76 grs IMR 4064 = 2094 fps (mild - corrected = 2108 fps. Max in volume. Expected 2160 fps)

That's for what it's worth.

The only disappointing load was the W748 that came so far short of expectations.

Both H335 and AA2460 were nearly spot on. Of course, I'd used a lot of H335 to that point so I wasn't guessing.

In June of '08, H4895 actually gave the best results in MV. But the COL was 3.53" for the 500gr Hornady. 80 grs gave a corrected average MV of 2286 fps/5801 ft-lbs from three shots.

Today, from my 24" Ruger Tropical, I'm at 82 grs H4895 at 3.617 COL for 2312 fps/5934 ft-lbs from the Speer 500gr GS. Max load for volume at that COL. Cases were Remington, and WLRM primers.

Just some data points for the curious.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
BTW, do you know who that hunter is with the brown bear head mount on his back? I've used it a few times in my blogs, and Phil S. asked if I knew; he seemed to think he recognized him.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

That photo was scarfed from this article by John Ross, great author:
https://sportingclassicsdaily....giants-of-the-earth/

The guy in the photo looks familiar to me too, and I am just guessing it might be another wonderful author, the Late Great Jim Rearden of Alaska,
from a 1950s photo ?
He passed in 2017 in Homer Alaska, onward to The Happy Hunting Ground.
Sumbuddy who know may prove me wrong.
Research required.
Maybe an old Outdoor Life photo ? Jim Rearden was an editor of some sort there for a couple of decades.
Middle-aged Jim Douglas Rearden:

Older Jim Douglas Rearden:

Life-well-lived Jim Douglas Rearden:

Same guy ?:


Those loads you posted last are great enrichment of THE MISSION.
Funny how your 3.617" COL with the 500-gr RNSP at +2300 fps is the same as the non-SAAMI Buffalo Bore COL for the .458 Lott 450-grainer.
The .458 WIN moves a 500-grainer along about as fast as a .458 Lott does with a 450-grainer,
and probably at lower pressure.
THROAT
THROAT
THROAT

RIP ...

Photo also found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_hunting

Hunter with a bear's head strapped to his back on the Kodiak Archipelago
William A. Troyer - US Fish and Wildlife Service, National Digital Library [1]; FWS-4870; Original source url listed as: Fish and Wildlife Services image library no longer works.
Bear Hunter on Kodiak. Close view of man with huge bear head strapped to his back. "A happy hunter. Bear hunting is an important recreational sport on the refuge". FWS keywords: Recreation; Hunting; Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge; ARLIS; Alaska

1957 ?

Surely not the same guy.
Forensically, ears are a good photographic identifier.

I see a few 458WM loads using 4198 (IMR or H) which is interesting to me, at least, because it is the go to powder for reduced or nitro for black loads.
I find that the 40% rule is a good guide when converting a black powder load to 4198 with a good filler for BPE rifles.
What is also useful is that 4198, used in this way, is a very versatile powder when used in a full nitro rifle allowing one to run anywhere from NfB loads to full boat and anywhere in between with whatever projectile one chooses.
Just tailor the powder load to the bullet and your own desires.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...

Here's another good load that may be of interest to some:

Bullet: 405gr Remington
Case: Remington
Powder: 75 grs RL-15
Primer: WLRM
COL: 3.256"
Rifle: Ruger #1 Tropical .458 Win Mag, 24" barrel
Date: June 11/19
Ambient conditions: Temp @ 21*C, mixed sun/cloud, elevation@ 900 ft.
MV = 2070 fps (instrumental), 2085 fps corrected to MV.

The 405 Remington is an excellent bullet for deer and bear. I shot a medium bear with this bullet at my #1 bait site @ 100 yards. Rifle was an 1895 Marlin in .45-70. MV was 2110 fps. Impact was +1800 fps behind ribs on left flank that made exit forward of ribs and behind shoulder on right side as the boar bear was moving away from me. The bear was dead before it hit the ground.

I bought the bullets in bulk several years ago and still have +100 on hand. I don't believe Remington is now offering them as a component bullet but they might be found at gun sales.

How did I get 2110 fps from the 405gr in a 22" Marlin? I seated all bullets to 2.60 - 2.61" COL. Doable in most Marlins. Powder was AA2015 ignited by WLRM primers.

Not recommended for others, but it worked for me.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

For the mission.

M-70 CRF 24" bbl
New Winchester brass
Fed 215 primers
All bullets: 500 Grain

Alt: 8100'
Temp: 78F
Conditions: Ptly cldy/calm

The following loads are samples of what I experimented with thru the years.

H335 74.5gr
Hornady: 2118fps
Woodleigh: 2099fps
TBSH: 2174fps
AGS: 2186fps

AA2230 75gr
Hornady: 2229fps
Woodleigh: 2204fps
TBSH: 2267fps
AGS: 2215fps

H4895 74gr
Hornady: 2205fps
Woodleigh: 2175fps
TBSH: 2219fps
AGS: 2185fps

Five shots across the screens at 12' adjusted to the muzzle.

I ultimately settled on 2185fps for my hunting loads. And the AGS proved to be the most accurate.

In temps in the mid, to high 90's in Zimbabwe, I've never experienced any problems with extraction, or pressure, etc. And,I've shot my .458WM a bunch in Zim thru the years. (Twenty-two trips, and more than 800 days in the bush)

At one time, I thought I needed a 50 cal, so I bought a GMA .505 Gibbs. Wonderful rifle...for a professional hunter, but not so much for the average citizen. I sold it, and went back to my .458WM I've never looked back.

Hunt hard...life's short

quote:

Originally posted by tsibindi:
For the mission.

M-70 CRF 24" bbl
New Winchester brass
Fed 215 primers
All bullets: 500 Grain

Alt: 8100'
Temp: 78F
Conditions: Ptly cldy/calm

The following loads are samples of what I experimented with thru the years.

H335 74.5gr
Hornady: 2118fps
Woodleigh: 2099fps
TBSH: 2174fps
AGS: 2186fps

AA2230 75gr
Hornady: 2229fps
Woodleigh: 2204fps
TBSH: 2267fps
AGS: 2215fps

H4895 74gr
Hornady: 2205fps
Woodleigh: 2175fps
TBSH: 2219fps
AGS: 2185fps

Five shots across the screens at 12' adjusted to the muzzle.

I ultimately settled on 2185fps for my hunting loads. And the AGS proved to be the most accurate.

In temps in the mid, to high 90's in Zimbabwe, I've never experienced any problems with extraction, or pressure, etc. And,I've shot my .458WM a bunch in Zim thru the years. (Twenty-two trips, and more than 800 days in the bush)

At one time, I thought I needed a 50 cal, so I bought a GMA .505 Gibbs. Wonderful rifle...for a professional hunter, but not so much for the average citizen. I sold it, and went back to my .458WM I've never looked back.

Hunt hard...life's short

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Here's another good load that may be of interest to some:

Bullet: 405gr Remington
Case: Remington
Powder: 75 grs RL-15
Primer: WLRM
COL: 3.256"
Rifle: Ruger #1 Tropical .458 Win Mag, 24" barrel
Date: June 11/19
Ambient conditions: Temp @ 21*C, mixed sun/cloud, elevation@ 900 ft.
MV = 2070 fps (instrumental), 2085 fps corrected to MV.

The 405 Remington is an excellent bullet for deer and bear. I shot a medium bear with this bullet at my #1 bait site @ 100 yards. Rifle was an 1895 Marlin in .45-70. MV was 2110 fps. Impact was +1800 fps behind ribs on left flank that made exit forward of ribs and behind shoulder on right side as the boar bear was moving away from me. The bear was dead before it hit the ground.

I bought the bullets in bulk several years ago and still have +100 on hand. I don't believe Remington is now offering them as a component bullet but they might be found at gun sales.

How did I get 2110 fps from the 405gr in a 22" Marlin? I seated all bullets to 2.60 - 2.61" COL. Doable in most Marlins. Powder was AA2015 ignited by WLRM primers.

Not recommended for others, but it worked for me.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Outstanding ! Buy a buy a donkey, Bwana Tsibindi and Bob.

Rip ...

If the Bear Head Back Packer's identity is not Jim Rearden, it surely deserves to be.

Jim Douglas Rearden was born April 22, 1925, grew up in California, graduated high school aged 17, and joined the US Navy in March 1943 before he turned 18.

He was a sonar operator on destroyer escort in WWII.

He got a BS degree from Oregon State College, wildlife management.
He pitched up in Alaska in 1947, during his college years, for a summer job with U.S. Fish and Wildlife as a "fishing patrol agent" at Chignik, on the AK Peninsula.
Then he got a master's degree from the University of Maine.
He headed back to Alaska in 1950, with first wife, Ursula (no kidding on the name of the wife of a bear hunter) and kids,
driving the Alaska Highway in a 1941 Buick.

He taught at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, where he started up and chaired the first Department of Wildlife Management at UAF.

5 years as a professor was all he could tolerate.
By 1955 he moved to Homer, AK and became a freelance writer and registered guide and jack of all trades.

After statehood in 1959 he worked as a biologist for ADF&G, eventually overseeing commercial fisheries management, and served on Alaska Boards of Fish and Game.

1964: After the Great Alaska Earthquake, Jim Rearden used a two-way radio at the Homer Fish & Game office to relay communications between Juneau and Anchorage,
when no other communications were working, regarding search and rescue, logistics, public and personal messaging, etc., etc.

1966: Second wife Audrey brought her three kids to blend with Rearden's five kids in a log home they built in Homer. Two stories, 36' X 45', quite the cabin.

1969: He became outdoors editor for Alaska Magazine, did that for 20 years. He was a field editor for Outdoor Life after that, maybe another 20 years there.

1970: POTUS Gerald Ford appointed him to the National Advisory Committee on Oceans and Atmosphere.

Late in life he was partially paralyzed by a fall. He continued to write and edit several books after that.
His life total was something like 28 books and more than 500 articles for 40 different magazines.
Mostly non-fiction, historically important work, but there was one novel, WWII related "faction."

He was named Historian of the Year in 1999 by the Alaska Historical Society.
Honorary PhD from UAF in 2005.
Alaska Governor's Award for Humanities in 2011.
Artist of the Year Award from the Homer Council of the Arts in 2016.
He died on February 18, 2017, age 91.

More photos of Jim Douglas Rearden follow, below, for Huvius to forensically study the ears:
















Last photo above is a 1957 ADF&G file photo of a happy Kodiak bear hunter.
Maybe the tip of his nose is swollen from the bite of a mosquito, the Alaska State Bird ?
Looks like he is carrying the same rifle that Jim Rearden posed with in the "Dall Sheep Back Packer" photo.



RIP ...

I only have 3 of Jim's books on my shelf, 5 more on the way from (ugh) Amazon.
Maybe I will find some pictures in those books, better than what I have snagged so far.
I do have an autograph of his, on his solitary work of "faction":

So, is there a better Kodiak deer rifle than the .458 WIN ? No.

A recent "New Gun Notification" from Champlin's is a doozie, not a daisy:

The "African" rear sight above is backwards !



How did that happen ?
And a 3-screw one-piece scope base that is obviously not meant to mount a scope, avoids using that 4th screw hole altogether.
It serves only as a base for the tiny screw-on Redfield peep, which is useless with the
bassackwards African sight or any other
standing rear barrel sight.

Rip ...

I just noticed that one. Would have been just fine with the rear sight alone.

Thanks RIP for all that fascinating history on Jim Rearden. Much appreciated.

Good luck with your blueberries and honey bees.

We're still stuck with a wet and chilly Spring. Hopefully, it will start warming up soon. Although April here is probably more like your March. Our range is closed 'til further notice due to Covid-19. And I'm not hopeful for a spring Bear hunt. Maybe in Sept. of this year.

Ten deaths in a nursing home 35 K from here. Someone got in there to visit after returning from out of country!

Take care,

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
I just noticed that one. Would have been just fine with the rear sight alone.

Turning the African rear sight 180 degrees was indeed a truly custom touch. Special !
I wonder if the customizer added an engraved, platinum-filled line to the back of that single leaf to match the one on the other side ?
Thus one could have a sighting aid on both sides of the leaf.
A rifle that aims both ways !
Such a touch could also be applied to handguns.
Equip the Suicide Squad with such sights for self-eyeball shooting.



Yep, at first glance, that is a striking .458 WIN from Champlin's.
If I were to give that rifle a female name: Harley Quinn,
Daddy's Lil'Monster.
To the owner: Lucky you.

Also a shame that they did not show the front sight on that rifle, supposedly a factory barrel that had been shortened to 22" from original 25".
How is that a full custom job ?
Did the customizer turn the factory front sight ramp by 180 degrees also ?

Rip ...