Ray B,

Thanks for that.
Old scopes have been very good for THE MISSION.

I might figure a way to mount this on the Ruger No.1 .458 WIN BPCR:



Use dovetails on the barrel and put some Picatinny on the barrel too.
Getting rid of the sunshade will make for a much stronger mounting.
Ought to work for lobbing 500-grainers at 1400 fps with BP.
However, AA-5744 offers same velocity, fine accuracy, and less recoil due to smaller powder charge.
That would be easier on the scope and mounts.
I will shoot BP with iron sights and smokeless with scope.

Rip ...

Thanks Ray B and RIP, you know those scopes warm the cockles of my heart.

Despite the apparent but mysterious reliability of Nikon and some Nightforce and Leupolds, I think scopes should not only be tough but have designs that show why they're tough. With the exception of the Pecar Champion and Burris's Posi-Lock, I'm yet to see image-movement designs explained to show how they beat the recoil-inertia bugbear of articulated erector tubes. Swarovski make a great effort explaining their Z5 and Z6 helical springs but, in my opinion, fudge their real purpose (to stop twisting and chatter of flat springs across the outer tube), to save the sales of their Z3 line.

sambarman338,

Have you seen this from the 1999 Burris catalog?
I call this image "The Optics of the Optics,"
and I wonder how things have changed since 1999:

Numbered comments keyed to illustration above, a two page spread:

1999 Burris catalog continued after the 3-brand scope comparison (The Optics of the Optics), see previous.

Lower part of catalog cover illustrates the Posi-Lock "tiny third turret" and the Burris Signature Rings:

Signature Rings and Signature Pos-Align Offset Insert Kit:

This new one (Burris XTR Signature Ring) has application to the .458 WIN:

XTR Signature Rings™

"New XTR Signature Rings were designed for the tactical shooter. They deliver plenty of holding power, with less weight.

Unique, self-centering, dual steel clamps with full cross-through connection assure proper center on any width Picatinny rail, while adding extra strength
Revolutionary Pos-Align® Inserts technology, in a tactical ring configuration
Pos-Align Inserts guarantee perfect centering and maximum scope-to-ring contact for tremendous gripping power without damaging the scope finish
Lets you virtually sight in your gun without moving the scope adjustments
Corrects misalignment caused by off-center receiver holes
Corrects for bases or rings being slightly off-center
No need for expensive tapered bases or shimming for thousand-yard shooting
Rugged, robust aluminum tactical rings save weight and mount on any Picatinny and most Weaver style rails
Each ring set includes one set of the +/- 0 MOA concentric, one set each of the +/-5 MOA and +/-10 MOA, and two sets of the +/-20 MOA. With these inserts, it is possible to make 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 40 MOA of cant in the scope mount."

Exploded view of a higher-height ring:

But for a .458 WIN, I still prefer the Burris Xtreme Tactical rings, with the 1/2"-nutted main mounting bolt,
that can be torqued more than I can torque with one hand on a Fat Wrench.
And I have not seen the recoil stop on the bottom of the XTR Signature ring ...

If the reloading manual says 2526 fps minimum to 2716 fps maximum, with AA-8700 82.0 to 86.0 grains,
surely I will be able to get it up to 2527 fps
with a similar charge of RETUMBO (faster) or H50BMG (slower),
a couple of favored Hodgdon Extreme powders.
I'll use the WLRM primer for those!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
There now, all of Cougarz replies have vanished, except the unfortunate quotes of him within other replies.

Y'all fill your tires with nitrogen, and if you later top them off with air, checking monthly and before any big road trip,
keep the O2 content in the tire less than 5%,
if you don't want those tires exploding from overheating, you hear?
But I live dangerously with mostly nitrogen and about 21% oxygen in my tires.
I do not sweat the water vapor either.
It might help prevent explosions.


Rip ...

You still don't get it. It's the elimination of water vapor in the tire. 5% air is allowed only temporarily if nitrogen isn't available during servicing. Then it must be replaced. We're talking aircraft tires here, not sure where your getting car tires from?

You read but still don't comprehend. Or better if anything does fit your preconceived notions you pretend it can't happen.

Your a great example of the saying "what counts is what you learn after you know it all".

But that's what to expect from a guy who only rode in aircraft and read a book once and therefore knows it all.

Your now my ignore list by the way too. Too bad every once in a while you did have something worth reading.

Ignored post by Cougarz posted 11-24-2018 12:47 AM

The Ignore Function is nice!

Rip ...

Yes it is.

I did a quick inventory of the bullet shelf and found that while I was pretty well fixed in .458 for cast bullets either from Oregon Trails in 405gr or my own cast in 350 and 475 gr, my supply of jacketed bullets was dangerously low, particularly since I plan on working up and getting familiar with a 350 gr load in the 458. so I just placed an order at Selway for 500 Berrys and 50 Speers. I'd have gotten more of the Speer but one was all they had. The Speer 350 gr .458 seems to be in short supply at all the mail order places so I'm not sure what the deal at Speer is- I suppose they make it in "runs" when they have received enough orders so they don't have a large inventory of slow moving items. From their web page it appears they have a great demand for .224 stuff since they had all sorts of bullets available in that size. I guess a shooter will go through a lot more ammo with an AR than they will with a bolt action 458. Oh well, I should get the shipment later next week, so I can start the program. At present there's about 1 inch of snow on the ground and it should stay through the winter, so my outside chores are done (until I have to run the snowblower) so I'm in for some productive reloading bench time. I love this time of year.

Ray B,

Procrastination on leaf raking: I plead guilty.
Looking forward to snow shoveling, I like snow shoveling much better than leaf raking.

I procrastinated on down to the local emporium to look at the Burris XTR Signature rings.
The recoil stop on the bottom of them is big and square and made of aluminum alloy, machined integral with the bottom half of the ring.
The mounting clamp on the side is secured with two Torx screws that I guess are 8x40.
Each set of two rings comes with 4 sets of plastic inserts.
The lowest 1-inch-scope-tube-diameter ring is designated as "1.00" height.
They have adopted the system for these newer rings of measuring from bottom of ring (exclusive of recoil stop) to the center line of the scope tube.
The older Xtreme Tactical rings were sized for height measured from bottom of ring to outside surface of scope.
The lowest XTR-Sig ring is equivalent to a "Medium" X-Tac ring in height: 1/2" height.
The X-Tac Low is 1/4" height.

Aside from possibly eliminating shimming and lapping, the only advantage I see to the Burris XTR-Signature ring
is that it does not have the big 1/2" nut sticking out on the side, and the ring can be used facing either way.
The Burris Xtreme Tactical with steel recoil stop on bottom can only be used one way, with nut on the right side of the rifle:
The steel recoil stop is square on only one side.
It may be not so pretty but it is a stronger attachment, and it is available in a lower height,
and about half the cost.
I think I would rather do some gunsmithing rather than rely on ring inserts, too complicated.
If you got the elevation right with the inserts and tightened the rings, I suspect the windage could possibly go cock-eyed.
I may never know.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

Have you seen this from the 1999 Burris catalog?
I call this image "The Optics of the Optics,"
and I wonder how things have changed since 1999:

No Ray, I hadn't seen these pages or RIP's on mounts but it gave me great joy to read them. Considering RIP's faith in Nikon, I can't say whether I take all of Burris's argument as Gospel but it is great they were willing to make it in public, not just their engineering section.

Despite its reducing recoil-inertia mass, I'm not sure I like the use of light-alloys anywhere in erector tubes. I've found they are more likely to gall than brass and I suspect that where they are allowed to bear against the turret screws they will be more easily damaged. Burris claims their turret screws have steel-on-steel contact, which should be more robust, and I like the strength of their double erector springs. That 14 pounds may even exceed the strength of the formidable spring I found in an old Nickel reticle-movement variable (the tip of which is to be shown again, below, for the benefit of readers who may have just joined - and The Mission ). The Nickel's spring, however, only had to hold up a reticle assembly (cf (5)) weighing 10-20% of all the junk you see around (1) and (2) in Burris's pictures. The Nickel's erector set was all brass and glass but fitted so tight it could not move relative to the scope body at all under recoil.

I like the concept of Posi-Lock but another AR member says he has wrecked three of them, so maybe the system could be strengthened as per the suggestions in the update to my book Light at the Start of the Tunnel.

I think Burris's eccentric mount inserts may also be a good idea in this age where laterally adjustable mounts are becoming a thing of the past.

Cheers
'Samuel B Mann'

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Though the Nickel reticle assembly is heavier than Burris's, it is only a fraction of the total mass thrown around in most modern scopes. This one ran up and down in the dovetail shown, against a single, elevation screw. Though that might seem antiquated, it ensured the spring was not twisted laterally by a second screw and could not chatter against the outer tube. With no element of hingeing from four inches behind it, this reticle would have stayed where you set it, not gone bouncing around every time a 458 Winchester Magnum was touched off.

I'd like to see the parts diagram for a Leupold Pioneer, Bausch & Lomb Balvar 8 and a Unertl Ultra Varmint. any ideas on where any of these could be found?

Unfortunately I can't find any visible scopes in my Unertl booklet but I guess there was little to see. Unertl apparently put their target-scope reticles in the second focal plain, the obvious reason being because that should be easy to reach, just where the ocular housing screws on. The brilliance of this would probably be that from the erector set to the distant objective lenses there was probably a whole lot of nuttin' .

All Unertl and B&L wanted from their reticles was that they not move anywhere at all.

Ms. Bobbarrela Shilen CZ is on the way:
CZ 550 Magnum action.
Shilen #5 contour (Light Varmint) "Match Grade" barrel, 1:14" twist, stainless, 25" long, threaded for KDF "Slimline" brake.
B&C "Kevlar/Aramid/CZ 550 Magnum" synthetic stock.
Picatinny rail of stainless steel custom fitted:



No iron sights.
No barrel lugs nor any other hardware but a thread protector on the muzzle.
350-grainers at 2750 fps,
500-grainers at 2300 fps,
or I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Rip ...

That is very cool seeing the breakdown of scope from 1999. Add me tot he list of those who would like to see the same blow up with today's scopes.

You would have to ruin the day with ***** ****. I'm sure Henry is very proud of her. Oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by Barton Hege:
That is very cool seeing the breakdown of scope from 1999. Add me tot he list of those who would like to see the same blow up with today's scopes.

Well where they would be the same is lenses in front of the reticle with cause problems if they move. Lenses behind the reticle no problem. If they move then the position of the reticle on the target does not change so no change in point of impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I did a quick inventory of the bullet shelf and found that while I was pretty well fixed in .458 for cast bullets either from Oregon Trails in 405gr or my own cast in 350 and 475 gr, my supply of jacketed bullets was dangerously low, particularly since I plan on working up and getting familiar with a 350 gr load in the 458. so I just placed an order at Selway for 500 Berrys and 50 Speers. I'd have gotten more of the Speer but one was all they had. The Speer 350 gr .458 seems to be in short supply at all the mail order places so I'm not sure what the deal at Speer is- I suppose they make it in "runs" when they have received enough orders so they don't have a large inventory of slow moving items. From their web page it appears they have a great demand for .224 stuff since they had all sorts of bullets available in that size. I guess a shooter will go through a lot more ammo with an AR than they will with a bolt action 458. Oh well, I should get the shipment later next week, so I can start the program. At present there's about 1 inch of snow on the ground and it should stay through the winter, so my outside chores are done (until I have to run the snowblower) so I'm in for some productive reloading bench time. I love this time of year.

I've shot Lots of the Berry''s round shouldered flat nose plated bullets in my 458s.
They work great. I tumbled most of them in moly powder . I think that produced less strain on the plating and I ran them @2400 fps iirc. They hit within a couple inch of my full house 350 gr Speer and TSX loads. So that made it easier for plinking.
I would go out in a clear cut and shoot Humboldt face cuts on stumps at different distances off hand .
Made for good offhand practice. I'de shoot down small trees with them also.
I myself recommend tumbling the bullets in HBN powder now.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
You would have to ruin the day with ***** ****. I'm sure Henry is very proud of her. Oh well.

As a Viet Nam Era US Army veteran since age 17 y.o., by way of being a West Point dropout,
I apologize to myself and Ray B.
I hope I fixed it well enough for him as for myself. The image is now pure!
There is no ***** **** on this thread now.

Rip ...

Beyond the politics, she used to be a very nice arrangement of protoplasm - and I miss the picture.

The Berry's (of Utah) Hardcast 400-grainers claim a Brinell hardness of 20.
I guess the "Round Shoulder" 350-grainers are just as hard AND copper-plated?

Description
"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and re-struck for
accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds and won't
foul your barrel with lead.
Seat to the cannelure.
Can withstand velocities up to 1700 fps."

It will be interesting to see if these can be driven as fast as the Speer 350-grainers, for target shooting and load development, not game.
Save the Speers for meat!

But if the copper-plated 350-grainer shoots accurately at 1700 fps from the long-throated .458 WIN,
that is cool beans for potting meat.
I'll have to have some of those.

Fattening them up with Harbor Freight Red powder coat paint also might improve them in the .458 WIN,
even if already perfect for the .45-70 Govt.

Bobbarrela will be dedicated to 350-grain and 500-grain TSX loads with COL from 3.440" to 3.780".

Rip ...

First test for Ms. Bobbarrela Shilen CZ:

The difference between F-215 and WLRM primers will be observed.

The 350-grain TSX at 3.440" COL in a Hornady .458 WIN case with 75.0 grains H4198, will be primed with the two different primers and chronographed.

That load with the F-215 primer in a 24-7/8" CZ barrel gave 2590 fps MV, and put 3 shots into 0.33 MOA.
That should be a good starting load for Bobbarrela.
Her 25" Shilen barrel might be faster than the CZ barrel with the F215 primer.
Then to see if the WLRM primer is even faster.

Rip ...

It just occurred to me that the "stilts" on the bottom of the Picatinny rail should be milled flush only where the rail is screwed to the receiver.

These stilts or underside side-rails on the bottom of the Picatinny can then be machined to abutt against the front receiver ring and act as a recoil stop.

I might not even feel compelled to J-B Weld such a scope base to the gun.
4 screws of 8x40 and an integral recoil stop on the bottom of the Picatinny would be stout!
One could then switch between the Picatinny with Low Burris Xtreme Tactical rings, and the OEM CZ rings without having to break out the propane torch.
Of course the Picatinny might be so good that I would want to J-B Weld it anyway.
The Picatinny rail will be the only good way to use either the Nikon SlugHunter or the Leupold Ultralight, and "ANY SCOPE YOU WANT" such as
1-4x20mm, 1-4x24mm, 2.5-8x36mm, etc.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The Berry's (of Utah) Hardcast 400-grainers claim a Brinell hardness of 20.
I guess the "Round Shoulder" 350-grainers are just as hard AND copper-plated?

Description
"Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and re-struck for
accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds and won't
foul your barrel with lead.
Seat to the cannelure.
Can withstand velocities up to 1700 fps."

It will be interesting to see if these can be driven as fast as the Speer 350-grainers, for target shooting and load development, not game.
Save the Speers for meat!

But if the copper-plated 350-grainer shoots accurately at 1700 fps from the long-throated .458 WIN,
that is cool beans for potting meat.
I'll have to have some of those.

Fattening them up with Harbor Freight Red powder coat paint also might improve them in the .458 WIN,
even if already perfect for the .45-70 Govt.

Bobbarrela will be dedicated to 350-grain and 500-grain TSX loads with COL from 3.440" to 3.780".

Rip ...

I would guess the plated aren’t as hard if they are swaged but I don’t know as a fact.

Good point.
Swaging is done by Hornady for their soft lead roundballs.
Swaging to form the Berry's bullets probably requires soft lead.
Nuts.

Rip ...

Fixed the derogatory nomenclature.

As to the effective velocity of the Berry plated bullets, I'm not sure what they are considering for their criteria. I've case bullets that with gas checks have been shot at close to 2000 feet per second with very little leading, so it seems that with the copper/gilding metal plating the bullets should go at least that fast with no problem. so I'm wondering if they are setting the 1700 feet per second limit with regard to the terminal performance. If that is the case, then that isn't a problem because as you said, the Speers would be the ones that get used for actual game targets. So it would be nice to be able to load both to similar velocities so at least the mid-range trajectories would be similar.

I got an email from Selway, the 500 Berrys are expected to be delivered on Thursday, so I can get going on some loading. The range that I frequent has gotten snippy with rules and won't allow me to shoot milk jugs anymore, so I may have to find a piece of national forest where I can set-up. blasted Communists.

Ray B,

Oops, censored the mention of ***** **** by edit.

It will be interesting to see what you can do with those copper-plated lead 350-grainers.
CTF seems to have accomplished what you want to do, with moly coating on top of the copper ... or HBN ...

Cold Trigger Finger,

Thank you very much! Buy a donkey! (for Afrikaans speakers)

I am a bit slow on the uptake, but have finally arrived at your HBN.

I always hated moly coating any bullet.
I love powder-coat paint on lead bullets, which I only recently learned to do.
Now I am sold on the "blended hexagonal boron nitride" for use on jacketed and copper-plated lead bullets.

David Tubb's kit should make it easy to get started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsYhPLSUD8

Moly bad!
HBN good!

HBN will probably improve the loads with all those 350-grainers, Berry's plated, Speer jacketed, and TSX monometal copper.

Bobbarrela is going to get her barrel coated with HBN.

Rip ...

For sambarman338,

Lookee here, I just realized that here is ANOTHER method of SEPARATE windage adjustment, apart from the windage and elevation adjustment of the inserts,
in the Burris Signature XTR rings:



The main mounting clamps are double, one on each side of the ring, and can be used to center the ring on the Picatinny rail,
it is self-centering as is from factory, with only two large screws (10x32?) going from side-to-side through both of the clamps.

If these two large main-clamping screws are cut off short, and a duplicate pair are screwed in from the other side, so they meet in the middle,
then one might be able to add some shims between the clamp and the down-sloping side of the picatinny
and drift it to one side or the other to keep reticle centered, if the rail is not perfectly aligned with bore.
The inserts in the ring can then be used purely for elevation adjustment.
The recoil stop on the bottom of the ring is precisely square, integral to the bottom ring-half, and as big as can possibly fit into the cross-slot.

"Synthetic" ring inserts, "aircraft-grade aluminum alloy" ring halves and clamps, and 10 Torx screws per ring (6 of the 8x40 for ringtops and 4 instead of only two of the 10x32 for main clamping).
Must be some titanium in that aluminum.
Surely it can withstand 6.5-ounce to 1-pounder scope weights on a .458 WIN.

Rip ...

I sent an e-mail to Leupold customer service asking if any drawings of the internal workings of their scopes, particularly the older models such as the Pioneer and Mountaineer were available. I got a rather curt response from them noting that such drawings were not available since they were "proprietary property". Guess their scopes are so secret that they can't afford to let drawing showing how even their 50 years old models worked. Or they are afraid that the drawing will show the various weaknesses of them and would tend to steer potential customers on to different makers.

That 'proprietary' claim reminds me of one of the dudes on an opposing forum who claimed certain modern scopes were definitely better but could not tell me why because their technology was 'proprietary'.

I find this stuff all a bit rich. We can look at rifle actions and debate which one makes more sense mechanically but when it comes to scopes they want us to buy pigs in a poke.

RIP's thoughts on those mounts appeals to me, too. And, considering my experience that modern European rifles (at least) often have their barrels aligned very well with action dovetails, I'm wondering if constantly centred reticles really are redundant for many normal hunting rifles.

The Burris XTR Signature Rings
would require a rebuild to allow the sort of windage adjustment dreamed of above.
The holes through the lower ring half would have to be threaded, then a 4-screw main-mounting of each ring base could be used,
instead of like this factory, 2-screw, Burris XTR Signature Ring:



Above we see that each ring has two clamps, and each clamp has two holes through it.

The clamp with the two non-threaded, countersunk holes (to recess the bolt heads) acts as "washers" for the main-mounting bolts.

The clamp with the threaded holes acts like "nuts" for the main-mounting bolts.