Another John Rigby photo maybe only 30 years later in 1894,
this excerpt is from page 14,
with my comments added below it, some specifics gleaned elsewhere (Terry Wieland):



IIRC, W.C. Wright was a gun dealer in London.

From page 60:



"A Rigby .450 Blackpowder Express hammer double with a Jones underlever. In Europe and Great Britain this was the sporting rifle of choice at the close of the blackpowder era. As the 20th century dawned, the cordite (smokeless) Nitro Express cartridge and the bolt-action magazine rifle, one pioneered and the other popularized by Rigby, would change hunting forever."

Page 28:




This is what ended the era of the BP hunting rifles as large as 4-bore, and smaller. It worked better,
for all reasons.
John Rigby had been working on it since 1889 by transforming the .303 British to smokeless.

From pages 61-62:

"England's The Field Magazine commissioned a test of the new round in November 1899, observing Ernest Rigby,
John's eldest son, shooting standardized loads of 480-grain bullets over seventy grains of cordite.
Using a ballistic pendulum, the magazine recorded velocities of 2,200 feet per second and calculated muzzle energies of 5,186 foot-pounds.
The magazine also recorded a seven-shot group at one hundred yards that measured 1.8" high by 1.15" wide.
This was both bone-crushing power and outstanding accuracy.
(Why seven shots when an even number, spread over both barrels equally, would be expected?
Perhaps Rigby had used up all his new ammunition by the time of the formal test.)
Rigby's new offering received The Field's unqualified approval
and became the father of an entire new family of smokeless big-game cartridges that have yet to be surpassed."

From page 54, same 1902 vintage DR pictured full length above, SN 17116:



"The legendary Rigby vertical-bolt, or rising bite, third fastener -- the stout U-shaped loop extending back from the rib and the two posts, one fixed and the other moving vertically with the toplever, that fit into it. This is Rigby No. 17116, a .450 Nitro Express built c. 1902 and bearing action use no. 868. James D. Julia Auctioneers"

Rifles and shotguns got serial numbered from the same sequence.
This .450 NE SN# 17116 is very close to the first-ever .450 Rigby Straight Taper/Special/NE SN# 16589. They must surely have looked about the same.
Grandpappy of the .458 WIN.

Page 41 explains the "action use numbers" related to the Rigby-Bissell patent #1141 of 1879 A.D.,
used in shotguns and BP rifle doubles throughout the BP era.
Strong enough for full cordite loads.
Difficult enough for the builder to execute that "Best" prices could be asked for it too.

From page 59:

Here is the right lock of a .450 Rigby Straight Taper/Special/NE that is SN# 16701,
coming just 112 guns and rifles after Grandpappy, SN# 16589, shipped out in 1898.
Must be same as used on Grandpappy.

From page 61:



What a GRAND FAMILY TRADITION !

Book review of
A Grand Tradition
John Rigby & Co.: It is a truly grand book.
There are hints from the authors that more volumes on Rigby may be forthcoming.
I want them.

Rip ...

RIP, I can't remember if I've posted it here, but I got to handle Tony Seth-Smith's Rising Bite 450. It also had a set of 458 WM barrels for it.

Speaking of 458s - here is the one I'm inspecting:

A few things:

- The side date (if accurate) shows July of 1974
- The bottom metal has a 72 (year?) stamped on it
- I doubt a box of ammo has been fired through it. It still had what looked like cosmoline on the floor plate and rear of the action
- It feels like a new Zastava - kind of rough
- It feeds OK, but needs some love...
- I love the stock - it fits like it was made for me
- it has a 23" barrel
- It has a flat barrel band with a 'ball' type swivel eye. Almost all other barrel bands I see are rounded.
- It does NOT have the Whitworth oval on the front ring
- It is marked Whitworth Rifle Company - Manchester England on top of barrel - see pic
- The left wall of the action is marked Whitworth Express Rifle - see pic
- It has Birmingham proof marks over the serial number and under the barrel - see
- The Interarms info is on the right side of the ring - see pic
- Is does NOT say Made In Yugoslavia (or anything else) on the tang - see pic
- The cross bolt is a square piece of steel that mates with the recoil lug - see pic
- There is a small crack (maybe from drying out?) in FRONT of the real action pillar - see pic
- There is NO second recoil lug
- The bolt face is clean - see pic
- Naked it weighs 8lbs. 5 oz.
- The rear sight has three flip up blades, not a single standing and two flip up

Upshot is that I like the rifle a lot. As I say, the stock is spot-on at 13.75" and it's a great feeling rifle. I gather this is an earlier rifle, and that the more common Interarms, Whitworth markings came later? I am just speculating here...

Anyway, here are the pics, I'd appreciate any extra info you had.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
RIP, I can't remember if I've posted it here, but I got to handle Tony Seth-Smith's Rising Bite 450. It also had a set of 458 WM barrels for it.

BaxterB,

You were in good company !
Tony did pretty good with his .458 bullets, eh ?
I heard he was called out of retirement in his mid-seventies (2010 it was)
in Kenya, to kill a buffalo that had killed another PH and his Tracker.
If he had his Rigby Rising-Bite then he was well armed, whatever brass it was using that day.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Speaking of 458s - here is the one I'm inspecting:

- The side date (if accurate) shows July of 1974
- The bottom metal has a 72 (year?) stamped on it
- I doubt a box of ammo has been fired through it. It still had what looked like cosmoline on the floor plate and rear of the action
- It feels like a new Zastava - kind of rough
- It feeds OK, but needs some love...
- I love the stock - it fits like it was made for me
- it has a 23" barrel
- It has a flat barrel band with a 'ball' type swivel eye. Almost all other barrel bands I see are rounded.
- It does NOT have the Whitworth oval on the front ring
- It is marked Whitworth Rifle Company - Manchester England on top of barrel - see pic
- The left wall of the action is marked Whitworth Express Rifle - see pic
- It has Birmingham proof marks over the serial number and under the barrel - see
- The Interarms info is on the right side of the ring - see pic
- Is does NOT say Made In Yugoslavia (or anything else) on the tang - see pic

I am no Whitworth Express Expert, did not even sleep at the Holiday Inn Express for the topic.
But I have owned a couple I got new in about 1985 to 1990.
Some of those circa 1974 features look to be of higher quality than the later ones, maybe after bean counters got involved.
Yours is a beauty. Do not let it get away.
My post-bean-counter .458 WIN had some rings in the chamber.
I re-chambered it to .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 WinRuger.
That was one of the great tragedies of my life.
Be sure to examine some brass fired in it with a full power/factory load.
Tie the barreled action to a tire (tang of action inside the tire and everything well padded and secured with strong rope)
pull the trigger with a string,
if you do not trust the walnut stock quite yet.
Or put it into a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock until you get the walnut sorted out.

- The cross bolt is a square piece of steel that mates with the recoil lug - see pic

That is good. Mine just had the usual crossbolt and epoxy bedding.

- There is a small crack (maybe from drying out?) in FRONT of the real action pillar - see pic

That can be repaired and a hidden crossbolt in the web between trigger well and magazine well will alleviate mischief.

- There is NO second recoil lug

A $250 B&C stock until you get a secondary lug on the barrel?
Or take your chances. My Mauser Banner .450 Dakota has no lug on the barrel,
but otherwise excellent factory glass bedding and two visible crossbolts..
Maybe that is why I only shoot it with 450-grainers at speeds that the .458 WIN is capable of?

- The bolt face is clean - see pic

That is a beautiful job.
Looks like it will snap over the cartridge in a pushfeed
without having to press on the side of the extractor with second hand.
That is the way I like them.
It is still CRF and CRE plus PF.

- Naked it weighs 8lbs. 5 oz.

NICE !

- The rear sight has three flip up blades, not a single standing and two flip up

Excellent. You can use a receiver sight or open rear sight interchangeably,
without having to remove the entire rear island, or knock out that fixed standing blade.

Upshot is that I like the rifle a lot. As I say, the stock is spot-on at 13.75" and it's a great feeling rifle. I gather this is an earlier rifle, and that the more common Interarms, Whitworth markings came later? I am just speculating here...

Anyway, here are the pics, I'd appreciate any extra info you had.

NICE RIFLE !
Where is a Whitworth Express Expert when you need one ?


Rip ...

From George Hoyem's Volume 3, could this be the rifle of Tony Seth-Smith,
or maybe even the "Grandpappy Rifle" whose barrels survived proof in November 1897?





Rip ...

Hey guys,

Loooong time lurker but first time poster on this awesome thread.

I’ve just become the proud owner of my 5th .458 and l’m please to say that none of them were Lott’s!
I’ve owned 2 CZ550’s, 2 Zastava’s and a Winchester M70. If I had to pick a favorite I would probably say the Winchester would be the pick.

However, my 5th and last .458 is a Zastava M70 looks to be a great rifle and it is about to undergo a bit of a transformation.
I’ll be replacing the Walnut stock (that are prone to splitting) with a Hogue full - aluminium bedded stock. It won’t look as classy as a nice walnut stock but it will at least handle the recoil and be practical .
Then it’s going to get a trigger job done and the feeding checked.
Next job is fitting a Leupold Freedom 1.5-4 scope in steel Leupold rings.

And lastly l need to work up a load. But that’s easy as I already have a pet load.

It consists of the following:
Woodleigh 480gn projectile
74gn AR2206H
Winchester case
CCI mag primer

In my last .458 (also a Zastava) with the 24” barrel this load chronographed spot on 2150fps with very little if any compression. The temptation is of course to experiment some more, but this load cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m and delivered the ‘magical’ 5000ft/lbs of energy so I think l’ll stick with it.

I’ll try to figure out how to post pics so I can post a pic of my new .458 and the transformation she’ll go through. I’ll also try and find some pics of my other .458’s and show them off too. All for the mission!

Speaking of the mission, in my time I have had my fair share of arguments online about the .458
I think people are slowly coming around about the mis-truths about this fantastic round, and indeed I wrote an article titled ‘Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum’ and this was met with mostly positive feedback/ comments. There are still lots of fans of the .458!

Anyway, I hope this helped the mission and l’ll try and find and post these pics.

Cheers,

Russ

Remember, there is a good use for any Ruger No.1 that came from the factory chambered for SAAMI .458 Lott.
Re-chamber it to .450 Nitro Express Rigby:



With this firearm, one can easily duplicate the loads of the .458 WIN,
and do even better with light bullets than the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Rip ...

BUY A BUY A DONKEY BADBOYMELVIN !

Your article deserves repeating, for THE MISSION:
*************************************************

By BadboyMelvin:

Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum.

For more years than I can remember I have been an staunch fan of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Always have been, always will be and it is my personal favourite amongst the current crops of big bores.
But I have to state right now that I hold no sort of caliber racism. I have owned a few big caliber rifles, a .375H&H, .375 Weatherby and two .458's and loved them all.
I like the .458 Lott and I love the .404. I also like the various .416's and would own and stake my life on any of the above. It's just that the poor old .458 still cops a bashing whenever it's mentioned and the old girl just doesn't deserve it. It's a throughly capable caliber and a hunter using one can comfortably stake his life on it hunting any animal that walks the earth.
Having owned 2 rifles chambered for the .458WM at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round.
I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I can now no longer defend it.

Why not?

Because there's no point. I'm sick of getting into arguments with people!
People either don't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester. I end up just getting frustrated, so
now I don't really bother.
Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it!
"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder and poor bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

Heard 'em all and to be honest I'm just tired of it... and I don't agree with any of the above.
(Well, except the poor bullets. In the day some of the bullets were shockers. Blew apart and were undersized.. true sick leave material.)

I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't going to get hurt, BUT, what does get me upset is when someone, usually someone new to Big Bores, buys a perfectly good rifle in .458 and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! They buy a perfectly capable round and then convert it and all because 'experts' tell them that it HAS to be converted to the Lott for it to be effective on DG. Or to make it reliable. Or because some of ammo that was manufactured 50+ ago was suspect!!
That'd be me like me saying "yeah, I drove a Chrysler 50 years and because of a bad experience I'll never drive one again!!"
I'll be honest and say that I just don't get that kind of reasoning.

To put it in perspective, how many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it, get it converted to .30-06 Ackley Improved? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then instantly get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not too many that I've met.

Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's great. Good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridges aren't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, that's a real shame.

As far as the .458 stories go, the most prevalent one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous (or is that infamous) for.
Now, to say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I have no doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse.
The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s and this FIXED the problem! Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.

A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann also wrote about this in detail. He wrote a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;
"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. It was, however, cemented by chemical action. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course)."

Not good, not good at all, but also NOT due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago?
Well let's see, there's the stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together - even though it wasn't compressed, the original 'solids' blowing apart and being undersize. The production line spilling powder from the empty shells before the bullet was seated. (Yes this really happened and Winchester documented it!!)
The 'glue' that held the bullet in place (yes, some companies glued the bullets in place) leaked in the case and interfered with the proper combustion of the powder.
These problems have been fixed (decades ago!!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for the really big stuff, like elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will. But I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, Grobler, Harland, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 20,000 actually and all with the 458wm.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure.
In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 (in a 24" barrel) with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 (Varget) for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H (H4895) for 2070fps.
These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 elephants, yet are not compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be the most popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'll tell you, in summertime up the Northern Territory, it gets as hot up there as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and the N.T is where they are field tested.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps is to slow for anything that a .458 caliber rifle would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28+" the .470 is usually credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action. What's not to like?

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I do with my CZ550 Safari Magnum?
Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper again!
One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $15-20! At this OAL they are the same length as the Lott and have the same case capacity. That means in a CZ, they're pretty much the same thing.
The original load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. There wouldn't be many situations where this would be lacking for dangerous game.
(Although I must admit now, I favour the lighter non-con bullets over the 500-550gr nowadays, CEB, Northforks and Woodleigh Hydro's)
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. I know that WM ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're going to use factory ammo, I'd just use the WM as is. And remember that factory ammo culled all those elephant years ago...

A lot of people buy a Lott and load it down to the the proven standard 480-500gr bullet at 2150fps. This is a sound idea as it is about ideal for DG and also lessens recoil quite a bit. Pressure would also be very low to boot. But one can also load the WM to this velocity and stay under pressure. And really, under pressure is under pressure. As long as it's under all will be fine. Personally I would not consider to re chamber my rifle to another caliber that essentially does the same thing but with 5000psi less pressure. Especially when both are under max anyway.
The .458 of today is a totally different kettle of fish to the one 50 odd years ago. All the horror stories that rightly or wrongly dogged the cartridge, such as squib loads, not enough velocity, to high pressure, not enough case capacity are just that. Ancient stories now.

Another thing that can't be underestimated is recoil. The .458 has plenty of it as it is!
A lot of people find the jump up from the WM to the Lott, Ackley, etc.. just to much. In fact a lot of people find the WM to much and are better off with a .375. Recoil is just one of those things.. it means different things to different people. But I think that we can all agree that for hunting, one MUST be able to shoot their rifle well and one MUST not be scared of it and flinch. Flinching causes wounded game, which in turn causes pain and suffering for the animal and potential danger for the hunter - especially when the big 5 are in question.

I will always stand by the statement that on game, the .458WM will do ANYTHING anyone could want in a .458 bore.
Modern powders and bullets have made it better than ever and if the .458WM of 2014 isn't a dangerous game caliber, then nothing else is either.
Having said that I totally understand why someone would want something different.
.416's, .470's, .404's.. I mean why not? They all work. They're all fun. Go for it!

So this is why I no longer defend about the .458 Winchester Magnum.

I don't need to.

It has probably killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism.
People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa".
But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;
"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.
**************************


Rip ...

No apologies or defense for the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. needed.
Keep in mind that the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. operates at 2,500 psi lower MAP and 0.260" shorter COL than the SAAMI .458 Lott,
and within those parameters there is only a 50 fps difference between the two with 500-grain bullets.
It's the throat.

But it sure is nice to gloat over this fact:
If you load the SAAMI .458 WIN with heavy bullets, to the same length as the SAAMI .458 Lott, it will give higher velocities or lower pressures, or both.
It's the throat.

Rip ...

Hey RIP

That could very well be Tony's rifle - it looks just like it, has the same safety bolt, and other features. Although if that pic was taken in RSA, I don;t know if Tony travelled there much... I had a mighty toothy grin shouldering that thing...

And you are correct about Tony having to take care of a trouble buffalo - you've got good sources! I heard the story directly from Tony's son Martin when I spent 11 days with him last year - great trip!

Tony's book is one of the very best out there on the subject of the settler/hunter in Kenya. The Seth-Smith's have been in Kenya I think 119 years now.

As for the Whitworth - I do have a B&C on my 9.3 Mauser but it's bedded - might be a good idea to grab another for playtime. The wood stock fits me ridiculously well so I don't want to goof it up.

Have yet to try the old snap-over trick - The extractor blade is TIGHT on the groove (too tight), and the needs some judicious work. The extractor also does not (yet) have that tell-tale forward/rearward slide to engage/disengage the extractor foot since (guessing here) the extractor was not fitted - just put together. Even the extractor rotation is TIGHT.

The only other Whitworth like this I've seen was on an auction site in Canada - its serial # was 4 less than this one.

No pix or .458 cartridges, but a big thanks for the .458 Hustler pic and information.
Fond memories of watching them shoot touch-and-goes at the airbase on west side of Ft Worth, Texas. Just out of high school and visiting a friend who played war games for DOD at that base.
His house had a second story porch that over looked the base airstrip and we would sit out there and watch the B-58 pilots practice touch and goes; the best part was just after the touch when they went full power to blast off. The roar shook the house and made an onlooker proud that this was a US bomber that most Americans never saw or appreciated for its service.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Page 28:

Have you ever seen anything as beautiful as this. Would have been perfectly appropriate blown up to poster size and thumb tacked to my bedroom wall next to Farrah when I was a youngster.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Page 28:




This is what ended the era of the BP hunting rifles as large as 4-bore, and smaller. It worked better,
for all reasons.
John Rigby had been working on it since 1889 by transforming the .303 British to smokeless.

From pages 61-62:

"England's The Field Magazine commissioned a test of the new round in November 1899, observing Ernest Rigby,
John's eldest son, shooting standardized loads of 480-grain bullets over seventy grains of cordite.
Using a ballistic pendulum, the magazine recorded velocities of 2,200 feet per second and calculated muzzle energies of 5,186 foot-pounds.
The magazine also recorded a seven-shot group at one hundred yards that measured 1.8" high by 1.15" wide.
This was both bone-crushing power and outstanding accuracy.
(Why seven shots when an even number, spread over both barrels equally, would be expected?
Perhaps Rigby had used up all his new ammunition by the time of the formal test.)
Rigby's new offering received The Field's unqualified approval
and became the father of an entire new family of smokeless big-game cartridges that have yet to be surpassed."

The one on the bottom looks a lot like my Searcy!

Came across this article that I thought would be good for the mission...

https://thebiggamehuntingblog....-win-mag-vs-458-lott

Buy a donkey for posting that link, Melvin.
Nice review, but I wish such reviews, when they delve into history of badmouthing the .458 WIN, would get into debunking all the old crap.
Like Jack Lott never thought the .458 WIN got him in trouble.
He got into trouble by gut shooting the cape buffalo with his first shot.
Etc., etc.

Rip ...

Spring has sprung early. The Groundhog was right !
Sunday 3-1-2020 March came in with the breath of a lion, steady winds about 20 mph from the south with gusts much higher.
52*F when I started shooting that morning and into low 60s later that afternoon on the way home.
My cabin fever has abated.
Marcella (.458" groove diameter, 23" McGowen #4 sporter of 1:14" twist)
enjoyed greatly getting to send 50 of those .461" diameter PC-painted cast bullets into the paper targets.
Once the wind ripped a target loose and I had to call a cease-fire to go re-staple it to the bucking target board.



Rip ...

These were all starting loads of 65.0 grains of AA-2230 with various bullets from 475-gr to 543-gr,
to see what I could see.
All had air space, from slight to very much.
COL's varied from 3.600" maximum to 3.340" minimum.
The 3.340" was with the 543-gr FNGC, the heaviest bullet (and amazingly the shortest Bullet Overall Length),
shortest COL, and highest velocity.



It is a start. I will repeat the starting loads with filler, to uniform the velocities and improve accuracy.
And I will try the BBM T6 HYDRA 480-grainer with same to see how close it is to 480-ish-grain cast bullet velocity.
Then use 67.0 grains of AA-2460 for comparison likewise.

I would recommend anyone starting off with any type bullet from 450-grains to 500-grains to try either 65.0 grains of AA-2230 or 67.0 grains of AA-2460,
in their SAAMI .458 WIN at 3.340" COL and work upward,
in powder charge and COL, if so inclined.

Rip ...

I shot into the wind, it was futile to wait for a lull.
I shot 6 bullets of each load, and 8 of the 543-grainers at 3.340" COL.
The 475-grainer was shot 6 times at 3.600" COL, and 6 times at 3.450" COL.
The shorter COL was better with that bullet.

All bullets were "hardcast" 92/5/2/1 except for 6 of the Lyman #457671 cast in the softer 10:1, making them weight 485 grains instead of 475 grains.
The harder alloy shot a little better with that bullet.

Below are the best 3-shot, 4-shot, or 5-shot groups I could muster in the gale, with averages for 5-yard chronograph velocity (held down with sandbags).
It's just a start at 50-yard targets with scope unchanged after first trial load was near zero, the Lee 487-grainer, "Pointed Round Nose," plain base,
at 3.500" COL with a lot of air in the case.

Event horizon: Black hole sucked in the 4th bullet.

More black hole !
Like Don Lemon's explanation for the missing airliner with hundreds of souls on board.

The rest of the bullet holes (selectively hidden) are to be blamed on the March wind and the March air in the cases,
not me or Marcella !

Rip ...

A weight-saver good on a .458 WIN, keep it in your pants, most of the time, the sling.
Do not hunt like Pondoro, wearing only a turban.

Rip ...

Another one for the mission guys!

Sorry for the all the links!
As soon as I figure out how to post pics l'll put them up properly...

https://revivaler.com/458-winchester-magnum

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338, Paul,

You are going to be put on ignore if you persist.
THE MISSION does not need material of that sort.
I encourage all .458 WIN MISSIONARIES to ignore any further climate change whining by sambarman338.
I encourage Paul to expend his surplus energies in finding Greta Thunderburger and her mates so as to correspond with them to his heart's content.
I suggest he use FACEBOOK for his further emissions of that sort.

Rip ...

Sorry for the late reply, Ron, I was doing a bit of ignoring of my own.

What about this? I'll lay off global warming if you desist from political comments (as I said, they are not necessarily the same thing).

Good luck getting to 461 chapters without occasional diversions from the central theme, though. In case you run out of new bullets to measure and paint, it has occurred to me another tack could be the standard 458WM's comparatively moderate recoil, if it has not already been done to death.

A mate here has used a light Brno 458WM over five decades of sambar hunting but rarely fires more than a shot or two through it at the range. He told me that if a session there gives you a headache, it may be caused by concussion.

You'll recall that Ray Atkinson reckons the 458 Lott is where serious damage to even Leupold scopes begins - but that he's not had trouble with the 458 Winchester Magnum (presumably he did not stoke extra powder inside long-COL cartridges). So, if the Lott's recoil can be deleterious to the guts of image-movement scopes, should we be surprised if it rattles the brains of shooters, too?

In tracing the heritage of the 458WM, the most-obvious dangerous-game antecedent was the .450NE. However, its db rifles usually weighed a bit more than bolt actions, it used a slightly lighter bullet and I doubt many of the old users spent days at the range checking out the express sights or handloads.

So, as a physician, what's your doctor outlook on these things?

Health outlook of owning and using a 458wm:
Life is better with one than without one
On the other end of the rifle; life is Shorter when hit with a projectile from one than it would be without that happening.

RIP - I’m watching your trials with cast bullets with interest. I’m sure others are too.

With your cast pills, I’m assuming you don’t size them initially and simply coat the pills until they reach 0.461” in diameter. Are you sizing them at any stage?

I might have missed it, but with the GC designs are you fitting the GC? Have you tried the GC designs without a GC as well?

Here in Oz we have limited access to different powders. We have the ADI powders which are rebranded as Hodgdon in the US, plus irregular supplies of some Alliant powders. In their wisdom Winchester has chosen to no longer import their own powders.

I’m thinking of basing my cast experiments, initially at least, on 2206H (H4895) as I’d really like to develop some accurate full power loads.

I recently picked some of the Hi Tek bullet coating material (another Aussie product) but need to assemble all the other gear to coat my own pills. I have lacked the inertia to go down this path but your success has spurred me into action. It does seem like an easy and worthwhile process.

I have a number 458 moulds ranging from 260gr to 560gr and I will try most of the heavier ones with the Hi Tek coating. If there’s any internal space I’ll probably fill that void with polystyrene packing material.

It will make an interesting reloading project for the winter.

Why is the 458 Win Mag 2.5” instead of 2.54”?
There is capacity left on the table in a cart that could use some. What would be an “improved” 2.54” case capacity be? lengthened and blown out capacity?