Hey guys,

I managed to put some of the old red & white box Super X .458 510gn rounds over the chronograph today - and they did alright!

l only shot 3 rounds as I loath shooting too many rounds over the chrono. Those shots could've been dead deer! Or buff!

Anyway here's what I got in my 24" barrel Zastava:

1996fps
2035fps
2014fps
Average = 2015fps - 4600ft/lbs

l was really, really happy with this and it's the only time I've ever gotten 2000fps or over with factory .458 ammo.

This older stuff it seems is loaded pretty hot. It's rated on the box at 2040fps and I was getting very close to this.
In fact, this is as close to the box velocity as I've ever gotten with ANY factory ammo.

Just thought I'd pass it on in case anyone has any of this old stuff on the shelf and they are wondering if it will even go off!
Well it does go off and it did itself proud!

Cheers,

Russ

what is the barrel length of that rifle Russ

by memory using the 24 inch winchester few years back my results somewhat match yours that being 1950 to 2050

it was about that time Clive Stockil wised me up

what he said that night down there at the Senuko Safari Lodge bar, after the day of killing of the buffalo, in camp, on the save conservancy -- went about like this -- you know Frank the 500 grainers at 1950 fps don't bounce off, rather they go right on in and kill the elephant. The fact that my Winchester and Hornady ammo was 100-150 feet per second faster than his South African stuff that came in the black box, did not seem to impress him all that much, after all he was involved in culling the elephant pods back in the time of Rhodesian ranch to conservancy conversion. Scotch being what it is, and we had all had -- had some at that point, he went on to pontificate that the simple little 30-06 loaded to 220 grain bullets worked on elephant quite well due to the fact that you could get off more [read faster follow up shots], and more accurate shots / shooting and that you had six down [ read to clean up previous sloppy shooting] which often times was handy if not an outright advantage in the heat and the brawl of an elephant cull. Scotch being what it is, as previously stated, I believed what he said to ring true, on the complete battery of points put forward at the water hole that evning.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
what is the barrel length of that rifle Russ

by memory using the 24 inch winchester few years back my results somewhat match yours that being 1950 to 2050

it was about that time Clive Stockil wised me up

what he said that night down there at the Senuko Safari Lodge bar, after the day of killing of the buffalo, in camp, on the save conservancy -- went about like this -- you know Frank the 500 grainers at 1950 fps don't bounce off, rather they go right on in and kill the elephant. The fact that my Winchester and Hornady ammo was 100-150 feet per second faster than his South African stuff that came in the black box, did not seem to impress him all that much, after all he was involved in culling the elephant pods back in the time of Rhodesian ranch to conservancy conversion. Scotch being what it is, and we had all had -- had some at that point, he went on to pontificate that the simple little 30-06 loaded to 220 grain bullets worked on elephant quite well due to the fact that you could get off more [read faster follow up shots], and more accurate shots / shooting and that you had six down [ read to clean up previous sloppy shooting] which often times was handy if not an outright advantage in the heat and the brawl of an elephant cull. Scotch being what it is, as previously stated, I believed what he said to ring true, on the complete battery of points put forward at the water hole that evning.

Hi Stradling,

Thanks for your reply.

The ammo was shot in my Zastava with a 24" barrel.

As I said I have never before been able to crack the 2000fps with factory ammo. The highest I'd previous got was 1975fps from my 25" barrelled CZ.

I said to myself from the start if I could crack the 2000fps barrier I'd take this ammo to Africa with me next year to hunt Blue Wildebeest (can't afford Buffalo!) and it looks like the ammo wants to go - as it kept its part of the deal!

Hi ya'll, hope everyone is keeping safe and well. Let's help RIP keep this tread going whatever the trouble around us.

My plans to bear hunt in May using the Ruger No.1 in .458 Winchester is still on despite the closure of our range due to Covid-19.
The rifle is still sighted for the 300 TSX at 2778, so all I need to do is load up a few more. It will be good to walk the woods... safer than walking the mall.

And I like those reports on the old .458 WIN factory 500s and 510s.

God bless.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Best of luck with the bear hunt..

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

And I like those reports on the old .458 WIN factory 500s and 510s.

About 1970-71 vinatge I melted the lead out of the WW 500 grain FMJ. The jacket weighed a bit over 220 grains. Of course some lead would have remained but not a lot as I head the jacket to red hot hot for a while so lead that was remaining probably mainly turned to lead oxide and bumper out as some powder.

The old steel hacket Horndays in 458 500 grains and 375 300 grains were also very heavey jackets.

The 458 WW FMJ ammo did 1960 f/s from 22" barrel M70 Super Grade and that was on the Ohler Model 10 with paper sreens with printed circuit. At that time in Australia thise Ohler 10s cost a bit more than a Sako 270.

Bob,
May the red gods smile upon you in May.
Great black bear and large varmint load, but I repeat myself,
H4198 and 300-gr TSX.
Besides these 300-grainers from Barnes, there is the TTSX-BT too:


Ain't the Four-Five-Eight grand ?

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
... I managed to put some of the old red & white box Super X .458 510gn rounds over the chronograph today - and they did alright!
1996fps
2035fps
2014fps
Average = 2015fps - 4600ft/lbs
...it's the only time I've ever gotten 2000fps or over with factory .458 ammo.

Russ,

If that is 5-yard chronograph data, add 13 fps (for BC = .287) to get MV of 2028 fps.
I had near identical results to yours with that ammo.

So, you have not tried the Hornady DGX/DGS "Superformance" factory loads rated at 2140 fps with 500-grainers ?

I tried those Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGS factory loads in a nominally 24" Zastava-barreled .458 WIN rifle,
actually 23.6" to be exact.
Corrected to MV at 69*F (for BC = .295):

10-shot average = 2124 FPS MV
St.dev. for the 10 shots was 8 FPS.

Anytime I get a St.dev. in fps that is less than the number of shots fired, I am thrilled,
whether factory load or handload.
Extreme spread was 29 fps: High 2135 fps, Low 2106 fps, corrected to MV.

My Zastava barrel had a .459"-groove diameter..
Using a barrel with the minimum .458" groove diameter will add a little extra velocity.

Example: Marcella M70 with 0.458"-grooved McGowen barrel of of only 23" length gave 2125 fps MV with Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGX.

That Hornady load is easy to duplicate.
I started at 68.0 grains and worked up to 73.0 grains of Hodgdon BENCHMARK,
same as your ADI Benchmark 2, as shown in the Woodleigh manual.
73.0 grains is mildly compressed, so an excellent extruded powder for the .458 WIN.
69.0 grains of Hodgdon BENCHMARK gave the most uniform load with the old Hornady 500-gr RNSP, with St.dev. of 2 fps for 5 shots.
I suspect that a 500-gr Woodleigh and the 69.0-gr charge of ADI Benchmark 2 would yield about 2050 fps MV in a 24" Zastava barrel.
It would make bloody big holes.
I hate to be dependent on factory loads.
With the more compact AA-2230 and AA-2460 you can go faster at lower pressure
and with no powder compression.
I suspect Hornady uses AA-2230 for their Superformance loads.

Rip ...

Slick shucking no doubt. The young gent short shucked between rounds 3-4. No matter for the purpose of the video. The feeding work is done and that 458wm is ready to GO!

RIP;

My 2778 fps, 300 TSX load is very mild using 75 grains H4198, WLRM primers in Hornady cases.

On August 6/19, I've gone as high as 82 grs H4198 (all I could load and seat the bullet to bottom groove - compressed) for three shots using Win brass @ 2927, 2921 and 2920 instrumental. Add 20 fps for correction to MV. 3 into .788".

Also, on same date, I fired three of the same 300 TSX using Rem brass (once fired) at same COL of 3.27". Load was 81.8 grs of H4198 @ 2964, 2953 and 2948. Add 20 fps for correction. Rem brass was slightly heavier than Win brass so a slightly lighter load of H4198.

The Hornady hunting load came later in Oct/19 for the bear hunt -- lasting two days only due to nasty weather. Winter arrived early. I was using a call in that I also had a wolf tag and one for varmints. That was a new-to-me, hand-held electronic caller with various recordings of actual game.

Hoping to do the same in May of this year, though I may try some limited baiting also. No wolf hunting after March 31 till Sept 15 of same year. Though fox and some small game are "game" using a Small Game License. I need more practice from actual use of the caller while hunting.

Of course, that will all be dependent to a greater or lesser degree on what's happening in "our world" in May, 2020.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I put an eight lb bag of shot in the pan and the severe recoil did push me and the whole contraption back almost one foot each time the trigger was squeezed. I then added another bag of shot -- this time a 25 lb bag. With the approximate weight of the Lead Sled at 15 lbs, plus 33 lbs of lead shot, plus the weight of the rifle at over 10 lbs, and my shoulder against the cradle, the front of the Lead Sled did "jump" off the cement table surface by about one inch or so, and the whole affair still moved slightly rearward but not by much -- maybe 3 - 4 inches. It was a very light push on my shoulder that reminded me of the recoil of a .223Rem. So the added weight held the three legs with their rubber feet tight to the cement table creating a lot of friction. Therefore, the rifle butt stock itself bore the near full force of recoil and cracked the stock, despite what some might think.

Of that I'm certain and entertain no doubts.

Not everyone's experience and conditions are the same.
THE ABOVE POSTED posted BY SOMEONE!...……...…......…………...……...……………...……………...…......


This is what we find here! The reason being, the rearward thrust begins with the actual rifle within the wood stock. What this means the rifle moves inside the wood the moment the cartridge is ignited unless the beding is perfect, which most are not. So once the metal how ever it is loose enough to move in the wood, before the wood can move because of the weight of the lead sled, and the weight of the shot bags, and the friction of the shoes of the sled retarding the beginning of rearward of the sled and everything in it except the actual metal rifle its self, so the metal places all it’s movement into the WOOD, CAUSING THE WOOD TO FAIL!
When a person fires the same rifle off his shoulder, his body allows the rifle, wood, and the body of the shooter to move all at the same time throwing far less empact to the wood of the rifle.
MY ADVICE IS DO NOT USE A LEADSLED FOR HEAVY RECOILING RIFLES IN WOOD STOCKS!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
MY ADVICE IS DO NOT USE A LEADSLED FOR HEAVY RECOILING RIFLES IN WOOD STOCKS!

Good advice.
And the .458 Winchester Magnum is the Doc Holliday of rifles,
scorned as puny by the unknowing, the ignorant.

Rip ...

Yep, I split out my double rifle with a damn lead sled and too many bags of lead I suppose, same with a thin stocked 9.3x62, fortunately I got them repaired with glass and hidden pins, then cross bolts and a second recoil lug..never the less don't use any extra lead on the Lead sled with a big bore, its asking for trouble.

The .458 is a great DG rifle IF YOU RELOAD PROPERLY.. NOt so great with factory ammo early on..don't know about todays factory ammo, but I do believe you need a minimum of 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet..

My donation of little use other than to keep the thread going and RIP knowing I,m doing my part for a great guy!

Has anyone tried X-Terminator in the .458 WM? I read somewhere that it's the same powder as A2230, both made in Florida. And N130 looks like it should be good as well.

I'll have to check around to see if the more recent version of A2230 is available in our neck of the woods. Or perhaps X-Terminator. My can of 2230 is about a decade old. It still works well but not quite as good as a new can of H4895, and no better than H335. And I still have some AA2460, but that too is a decade old. Time to dump them, I think.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Atkinson,

Buy a buy a donkey for those flowers.
Your support of THE MISSION is greatly appreaciated.

Take a gander at some more recent factory loads for the .458 WIN in
Bob Forker's AMMO & BALLISTICS 6 (2017) reviewed: An excellent compendium of factory loads, 520 pages, that will never be consigned to the outhouse,
no matter how scarce toilet paper gets during the Wuhan Woohoo.
Excerpts for review purposes:
Hornady was still the pacesetter with 500-grainers at 2140 fps.
16 loads for .458 Win.Mag. were listed in 6th Ed., 3 more than the 13 factory loads of the 5th Ed.









Disappearance of the 2260 fps 500-grainers (Hornady Heavy Magnum loads) might be due to the sensible nature of the .458 WIN shooters.
No need to suffer the recoil that the personal insecurities of the Lottites demands.
A 500-grainer at 2140 fps is plenty fast enough.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Has anyone tried X-Terminator in the .458 WM? I read somewhere that it's the same powder as A2230, both made in Florida.

I have heard that said too.

And N130 looks like it should be good as well.

Any results with different powders reported by Bob would be greatly valued and deemed highly trustworthy,
for THE MISSION.

I'll have to check around to see if the more recent version of A2230 is available in our neck of the woods. Or perhaps X-Terminator. My can of 2230 is about a decade old. It still works well but not quite as good as a new can of H4895, and no better than H335. And I still have some AA2460, but that too is a decade old. Time to dump them, I think.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I think the improved ThermoBallisticIndependence of AA-2230 and AA-2460 started with lots made in 2016.
Hopefully Western Powders Company can get it into Canada soon,
soon as all the truckers down here can be diverted from hauling toilet paper to the zombie hoarders of the Wuhan Woohoo.

Seriously, I have been very impressed with AA-2460, as well as AA-2230.
The powders look the same except for an abundance of flattened spheroids in the AA-2230.
This would increase the surface area and speed ignition of the powder,
as well as maybe allowing a tiny increase in loading density of the AA-2230.

In fact, I think they are the same powder, except for a certain percentage of flattened balls in the AA-2230.
AA-2460 appears to be all uniform, spherical tiny balls.
Where a couple of grains of extra powder space can be had by LongCOL loading,
AA-2460 might be even better than AA-2230 for the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

I can't possibly read all of this. Even while sheltering in place.

Still, after all of the confetti has hit the street, and the clean up crew has come and gone, I mean still, is it not true that anything the .458 Win. Mag. can do, the .458 Lott can do even better?

Sorry, please continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
...but I do believe you need a minimum of 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet..

I think that must be the magic number just as for decades the threshold for 40cal 400 grainers was 2100fps, now of course most want 2300+
I’d expect that 2000fps with a properly constructed projectile is good for anything one might run up against.
The 458WM is quite comfortable in that space.

I’ve studied the evolution of the 450 bore quite a bit, being a collector and fan of the breech loading firearms which came about as a result of the .450 bore muzzle loading rifle standard.
I love the 450s!
RIP has shown much of the evolution of the 450 bore with 500 +/- grain projectiles and that combination just seems to be the ideal whether it be on the 1000yd firing line or in the field against dangerous game.
IMO, the 450 at roughly 480grs at 1700-2000fps is the bees knees! Of course, if you want to ramp it up from there, there’s plenty of performance with modern bullets and powders that will allow you to do just that.

Nope. That is not true.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I can't possibly read all of this. Even while sheltering in place.

Still, after all of the confetti has hit the street, and the clean up crew has come and gone, I mean still, is it not true that anything the .458 Win. Mag. can do, the .458 Lott can do even better?

Sorry, please continue.

quote:

I mean still, is it not true that anything the .458 Win. Mag. can do, the .458 Lott can do even better?

I think that the Lott was hanging on to the notion that more capacity was the answer.
With modern powders, this isn’t necessarily the case given sporting arms which don’t resemble bench guns.
In the late 19thC., with black powder, more capacity was always the answer to achieving better performance but not so in the smokeless age let alone in the 21st century smokeless age.

So, with the same or equivalent powders, the Lott can't achieve more velocity than the Win. Mag.?

Not buying it.

It can, maybe, but is it necessary?
My mention of the evolution of the 450 illustrates my point.
For decades, hardened lead 450 projectiles killed just fine at 1700fps
Jacketed projectiles came about, which was great but reliable expansion needed mor like 1900fps.
Then, nitro powders came along and the speed attainable outstripped the traditional bullets’ integrity.
So, steel jacketed and solids became the norm which in many ways became the dog chasing his tail.
Sure, we think that higher velocity is the answer, but that increase in velocity demands a more strongly constructed projectile to perform (mushroom and track) at those speeds without simply punching a .458” hole through the game.
Interestingly, on soft skinned game in particular, a lead projectile at 1700fps performs very much like a jacketed at 2100fps and a mono at 2300fps.
The death blow of a properly placed shot with any of the above parameters will result in a dead game animal.

In my experience, Huvius, you are certainly right to a point.

In my experience, the point where your rightness is not so certain is when more shock and penetration are wanted, or needed, with a solid.

The same is true when you want, or need, more certainty with an expanding bullet, when quicker results are better - which is always.

Under those circumstances, in my experience, faster is better.

But, for some of us, fast-enough is good enough.

Faster, faster is probably a good mantra for those that shoot buff and ele at 400 yards, but some of us are just not up to that.

So I will just keep shooting game at modest range and with ammo that is just fast enough.
BTW, tonight's Nilgai stew was great! I shot it in a mesquite forest at 10 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Faster, faster is probably a good mantra for those that shoot buff and ele at 400 yards, but some of us are just not up to that.

400 yards? Hell, no. That’s ridiculous.

Still, I’ll give you your straw man. Here’s how it works, in
my experience. With good, big, well-constructed bullets, faster — to a point — is always better, and especially at close range, where all DG is properly shot.

I’ll confess that I’ve even moved on from the Lott to the .450 Rigby. There’s something magic, in my experience, about achieving 2,400 — 2,500 fps with a big, well-constructed bullet.

As they say, dead is dead. But dead faster is better than dead slower.

Now, please continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I can't possibly read all of this. Even while sheltering in place.

Still, after all of the confetti has hit the street, and the clean up crew has come and gone, I mean still, is it not true that anything the .458 Win. Mag. can do, the .458 Lott can do even better?

Sorry, please continue.

No disrespect or belittlement of the questioner is meant, for he admits he has not read much of this thread.
If he had, he would not ask such a question, assuming normal comprehension.

The throat of the SAAMI .458 WIN swallows whole the throat of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
This allows pressure relief and even longer COL with some bullets in the .458 WIN than is possible in the .458 Lott.
The Barnes 500-grain TSX is one example, when singly loaded in both of those rifles.
The .458 WIN beats the .458 Lott on ballistics produced,
and resoundingly so if the .458 WIN is allowed the same higher pressure as the .458 Lott.
Obviously, if we allow them both to be loaded to 3.6" COL maximum and 62,500 PSI maximum,
the non-SAAMI loading of the .458 WIN gives higher MV.

Restricting the .458 WIN to 3.340" COL and 60,000 PSI per SAAMI,
and allowing the .458 Lott its 3.600" COL and 62,500 PSI per SAAMI:
The .458 LOTT edges the .458 WIN by only 50 FPS with any 500-grain bullet.
That is inconsequential.

But the .458 Lott does this at the expense of greater recoil, longer action, AND higher pressure.
That is not so inconsequential.
The .458 WIN with SAAMI COL and pressure beats the .458 Lott in combat.

Throttle the .458 WIN down to 2150-2200 fps with 500 grainer at 3.340" COL
and do the same with the .458 Lott at 3.600" COL with 500-grainer at 2150-2200 fps.
Pressures will be insignificantly different due to the throat effects
(long-throated .458 WIN, short-throated .458 Lott)
but less powder is burned and less recoil delivered for same ballistics with the .458 WIN.

Similar recoil advantages for same ballistics occur with lighter bullets than 500-grainers.
The only advantage the .458 Lott might have is ability to attain higher velocity with the light bullets,
at cost of even more recoil.

It is quite ironic that the SAAMI .458 Lott with 0.3" longer brass is throated short and
is used in rifles only 0.2" longer than those used to build the .458 WIN,
and the longer .458 Lott requires 2,500 PSI higher pressure for a 50 fps advantage with 500-grainers.
Might as well one-up that joke by building .458 WIN rifles on 3.6" instead of 3.4" rifles.

Rip ...

Thanks for the info, if not the condescension. But such are armchair experts. Paper does not tell even half the story.

I was never able to get more than 2,300 fps or so from my Lott. But that was far better than the 2,000 or so one could get from the Winny, at least in those days.

Now one can get more. But still not more than the Lott, apples to apples.

For DG, I’ll take 50 fps more at close range any day, since kinetic energy increases by the square of velocity.

But since I am in the kill them faster and more is better to a point school, and the point seems to be around 2,500 fps or so, in my experience, I like the .450 Rigby even more.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I’ll confess that I’ve even moved on from the Lott to the .450 Rigby. There’s something magic, in my experience, about achieving 2,400 — 2,500 fps with a big, well-constructed bullet.

Above shows an advantage of the SAAMI .458 WIN over the .450 Rigby for practical game killing loads.
The .450 Dakota is more powerful than the .450 Rigby.
The .460 Wby is more powerful than the .450 Dakota.
The greater the case size here, the sweeter the .458 seems in comparison.
Note that the 400-grain load from the .458 WIN (2390 fps) has higher velocity AND less recoil than the .450 Rigby 400-grainer (2375 fps).
The .450 Rigby light load makes the point.
A .458/400-gr monometal copper or brass bullet at 2400 fps will dispatch with alacrity anything that walks.
I have shot game with the .458 WIN and the .460 Wby and much prefer the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Thanks for the info, if not the condescension.

Condescension is thy name, Michael Robinson.

But such are armchair experts.

Sir, I resemble that remark.

Paper does not tell even half the story.

Brilliant !

I was never able to get more than 2,300 fps or so from my Lott.

And you're a daisy if you did.

But that was far better than the 2,000 or so one could get from the Winny, at least in those days.

What's the matter ? You didn't handload back then?
2150 fps with 500-grainer was possible for the .458 WIN when you were in diapers.
And still will be when you are in diapers again.

Now one can get more. But still not more than the Lott, apples to apples.

Only if you restrict the .458 WIN to lower pressure and shorter COL than the .458 Lott.
That is more like apples and oranges.
Apples to apples, 3.6" COL and 62,500 PSI for both, the .458 WIN beats the .458 Lott for MV anytime.
THROAT
THROAT
THROAT

For DG, I’ll take 50 fps more at close range any day, since kinetic energy increases by the square of velocity.

If that is not some armchair expert brilliance, then I do not know what is, bless your heart, MR.

But since I am in the kill them faster and more is better to a point school, and the point seems to be around 2,500 fps or so, in my experience, I like the .450 Rigby even more.

Well, I do like a certain 400-grain monometal copper bullet at +2500 fps MV from a .458 WIN at a mere 3.395" COL.
There is something to be said for 2500 fps MV sometimes.

Rip ...

This is true brilliance:

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
... My mention of the evolution of the 450 illustrates my point.
For decades, hardened lead 450 projectiles killed just fine at 1700 fps
Jacketed projectiles came about, which was great but reliable expansion needed more like 1900 fps.
Then, nitro powders came along and the speed attainable outstripped the traditional bullets’ integrity.
So, steel jacketed and solids became the norm which in many ways became the dog chasing his tail.
Sure, we think that higher velocity is the answer, but that increase in velocity demands a more strongly constructed projectile to perform (mushroom and track) at those speeds without simply punching a .458” hole through the game.
Interestingly, on soft skinned game in particular, a lead projectile at 1700 fps performs very much like a jacketed at 2100 fps and a mono at 2300 fps.
The death blow of a properly placed shot with any of the above parameters will result in a dead game animal.

Flowers to Huvius, and buy a donkey too.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I’ll confess that I’ve even moved on from the Lott to the .450 Rigby. There’s something magic, in my experience, about achieving 2,400 — 2,500 fps with a big, well-constructed bullet.

Above shows an advantage of the SAAMI .458 WIN over the .450 Rigby for practical game killing loads.
The .450 Dakota is more powerful than the .450 Rigby.
The .460 Wby is more powerful than the .450 Dakota.
The greater the case size here, the sweeter the .458 seems in comparison.
Note that the 400-grain load from the .458 WIN (2390 fps) has higher velocity AND less recoil than the .450 Rigby 400-grainer (2375 fps).
The .450 Rigby light load makes the point.
A .458/400-gr monometal copper or brass bullet at 2400 fps will dispatch with alacrity anything that walks.
I have shot game with the .458 WIN and the .460 Wby and much prefer the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

I am going to have to quit. As a wonderful fellow once said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Those numbers are deceitful manipulation, plain and simple.

I (and Norma) can easily get the quoted velocity from the Rigby with 500 grain bullets, much less 400s.

And what nitwit not shooting a .45-70 uses 400 grain bullets in a .458 anyway?

Just silly.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I am going to have to quit. As a wonderful fellow once said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Those numbers are deceitful manipulation, plain and simple.

Your damned lie there.

I (and Norma) can easily get the quoted velocity from the Rigby with 500 grain bullets, much less 400s.

Of course you can. And of course reduced loads are possible.

And what nitwit not shooting a .45-70 uses 400 grain bullets in a .458 anyway?

Just silly.

MR. Condescension is calling Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker nitwits !

Rip ...

Personally I don't see a situation of "which one" with the 450 Rigby/Dakota/460 and the 458.

I have never even seen a 450 Rigby or Dakota but have had my share of 460s as well as direct involvement with several others. Same with 458 Winchester.

I have never shot the big animals but those who have done so have not shot very many. Check the African Forum and one bloke has buffalo has a buffalo goes 3 steps with the 375 H&H. Another blokes almost wears out the barrel of his 458 Lott etc. A few kills means fuck all. Saeed of course has shots heaps and his 375/404 Imp loads are basically at 375 Wby ballistics.

I reckon the 458 and 460 are perfect companions.

If you do a real lot of shooting then the 458 with 400 grain Speers at 2000-2100 takes a lot of beating.

Most of the emotion in any communication is supplied by the reader or listener.
The facts of the Throat, Throat, Throat, in the 458Wm are carefully documented in the past 191 pages and how that gives certain advantages to the 458WM over the now Standardized Lott in Many cases. so the original question yields a simple answer, "No. That is not true."
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I can't possibly read all of this. Even while sheltering in place. Big Grin Roll Eyes

Still, after all of the confetti has hit the street, and the clean up crew has come and gone, I mean still, is it not true that anything the .458 Win. Mag. can do, the .458 Lott can do even better?

Sorry, please continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

And what nitwit not shooting a .45-70 uses 400 grain bullets in a .458 anyway?

Just silly.

Heaps and a huge number use 350 grainers.

On a big Weatherby forum run from Denmark but mostly American members, heaps of 350 grainers used in the 460 Wby.

Lots and lots of 400 grain Speer flat points and 405 grain Remington bullets used in the 458.

Mike,

I've killed bears with all three of those bullet weights: The 350 Speer from my 22" Ruger M77, .458 (with the tang safety) at a reduced 2345 fps. Bear at 70 yards going away. Impact behind ribs, making exit at back of head after taking out eight inches of back bone, then back of head, continuing on into the forest beyond. The 400 Speer from my Marlin at 1865 fps killed my first bear (trophy size) at 100 yards. Impact was about 1535 fps through lungs. Bear went 10 yards. I gave another for insurance that wasn't needed. The 405gr Rem was shot from another 1895 Marlin at 2110 fps, similar hit to the first bear mentioned. DRT. The 405 hit behind short ribs and made exit behind offside shoulder. Range was 100 yards. All three were in different locations

Those worked very well at the distance and speed mentioned. Another was DRT from a 465gr semi-hardcast at 70 yards. MV was 1900 into frontal chest. Never found bullet, and so on. That was from a single-shot .45-70; and another site still.

The greatness of the .458 WM is that it can mimic BP, modern .45-70s, 45-90s, 45-110s, etc, and even compete favorably with larger bores.

For me, there are yet "miles to go".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"The greatness of the .458 WM is that it can mimic BP, modern .45-70s, 45-90s, 45-110s, etc, and even compete favorably with larger bores."

A good spread.

Lots of 458s used in Australia to blast kangaroos, pigs, emus, in other words, anything that moves

A local bullet maker makes 300 and 400 in both flat point and flat point hollow point with jackets like paper. in 375 200 and 250 grain is same bullet style as the 458s. The make nothing in 416.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Has anyone tried X-Terminator in the .458 WM? I read somewhere that it's the same powder as A2230, both made in Florida. And N130 looks like it should be good as well.

I'll have to check around to see if the more recent version of A2230 is available in our neck of the woods. Or perhaps X-Terminator. My can of 2230 is about a decade old. It still works well but not quite as good as a new can of H4895, and no better than H335. And I still have some AA2460, but that too is a decade old. Time to dump them, I think.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yes, I've tried Ramshot X-terminator in the 458 WM. Western Powders told me that there was a change over and X-terminator and Accurate 2230 were now both being made in St. Marks, FL. My can of X-terminator was bought from Graf's a few years ago but was of Belgium production. With a 500gr. cast bullet and the max load of 72.0 gr. it gave 2116 fps from my Ruger No.1. The Belgium Ramshot was slower than the old Accurate 2230 and produced more pressure, both having 72.0 gr. listed as the max load in their data.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
So, with the same or equivalent powders, the Lott can't achieve more velocity than the Win. Mag.?

Not buying it.

M R not words of wisdom.
M R the words of an armchair expert.

Apples to apples, same COL and same pressure, the .458 Winchester beats the .458 Lott with any bullet that can be loaded to 3.6" COL in both of them.
The .458 Winchester Magnum will deliver higher velocity with that bullet than the .458 Lott is capable of.
That is when the .458 Lott has maxed out at 62,500 PSI and 3.600" COL.
If the .458 WIN gets to 62,500 PSI and 3.600" COL, it will have a higher MV, burn more powder, and kick harder than the .458 Lott.
THROAT
THROAT
THROAT in the .458 is like location, location, location in real estate.

M R true words.
M R not damned lies.
M R the facts.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by admiral:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Has anyone tried X-Terminator in the .458 WM? I read somewhere that it's the same powder as A2230, both made in Florida. And N130 looks like it should be good as well.

I'll have to check around to see if the more recent version of A2230 is available in our neck of the woods. Or perhaps X-Terminator. My can of 2230 is about a decade old. It still works well but not quite as good as a new can of H4895, and no better than H335. And I still have some AA2460, but that too is a decade old. Time to dump them, I think.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yes, I've tried Ramshot X-terminator in the 458 WM. Western Powders told me that there was a change over and X-terminator and Accurate 2230 were now both being made in St. Marks, FL. My can of X-terminator was bought from Graf's a few years ago but was of Belgium production. With a 500gr. cast bullet and the max load of 72.0 gr. it gave 2116 fps from my Ruger No.1. The Belgium Ramshot was slower than the old Accurate 2230 and produced more pressure, both having 72.0 gr. listed as the max load in their data.

I wish in Australia we had all the powders you blokes have.

But back in the 70s with a local powder (an early version of the Australian powders now sold as H "whatever") 70 grains did 2070 f/s with 22" barrel. It could have gone faster but 70 grains was a nice round number. When you also have a 460 you could not give a fuck whether the 458 did 2070 or 2120 f/s

Ron that powder was AR2201. Like 3031 burn rate as was the 4740 which we had and was used in Canadian 303 military ammo. Of course our 303 ammo was Cordite. And like the Kynoch ammo, the crimp groove on Mark VII ammo was just above the base of the bullet.

The 174 grain bullet with aluninium in the tip to allow for the long ogive penetrated completely differently than Alf's bullshit figures As I said to Alf we chest shot large red roos and the bullet kicked up dust a long way down. We did not shoot 11 roos I think it might have been 15

Scrolling through the old GUN DIGEST digital copies,
I recall seeing news about the new-to-USA propellant AA-1680 being made by IMI in Israel,
imported by Accurate Arms in Tennessee,
touted for AK-47 handloads.
Yes it seems to be a bit too fast and erratic for 300-grainers in the .458 WIN.
Maybe 250-grainers like the Hornady Monoflex?
M R some mighty light bullets for a .458 WIN.

About year 2000 Western Powders in Miles City, Montana came online with 9 different powders including Ramshot.
Since then they absorbed the Accurate Arms powders line.
AA-2230 and AA-2460, M R some good powders.

I did a run of cast bullet loads starting with 65.0 grains of AA-2230 for all of them.
6 different bullets, all sized to .461".
475-gr to 543-gr bullet weights, all with no fillers used in the .458 WIN.
COL varied from 3.340" to 3.600".

Incidentally, the heaviest bullet (543-gr) at the shortest COL (3.340") gave the highest velocity, 2024 FPS instrumental,
from the 23" McGowen barrel.
I now think that about any cast bullet sized to .461" and used in a .458"-.459"-grooved .458 WIN has good accuracy potential.

I have a mind to zero in on the 475-gr Lyman "Mini-Money" Gas-checked bullet (#457671), powder-coat-painted, cast in 92/5/2/1 alloy.
COL will be 3.450".
This easily fits the 3.6" box of Marcella M70.
It is also a COL that is easily single-loaded and ejected if not fired, from a .30-06-length-magazined rifle.
That bullet and COL gave 1961 fps with 65.0 grains of AA-2230, WLRM primer and WW brass.
I need to check that load again with filler,
load a bunch of them and test for velocity, uniformity, and accuracy at 100 yards.

Then start over with it at 65.0 grains of AA-2460 and use a filler to eliminate any air space.
I expect good things.
I will work up to no more than 2200 fps with the 475-gr cast bullet in the 23" barrel.
Check for accuracy sweet spots.
An accurate 475-grain cast bullet load at about 2000 fps or less would be fine as a game-getter,
and a pleasure to shoot.

Then switch over to BBM T6 480-gr monometal copper which can certainly handle more speed.
If my shoulder gets sore, there is Bobbarrella with muzzle brake and 25" Shilen barrel,
keeping in mind that the McGowen has .458" groove and the Shilen is closer to .459" groove.
And I must remember to check Daisy the Ruger No.1 for groove diameter.

After I play with 475-480-grainers, I'll get back to M 400-grainers.
I do not think M R for nitwits only.

Rip ...