Here is some earlier thinking on the 450-grainer in the .458 WIN.
On the right below are the first two generations of North Fork 450-gr copper FN solids,
with the CEB 450-gr brass FN between them:



The A.B.E. offering of brass bullet pictured below does not look like the .458"/ 450-grain CEB Safari Solid that I have known.
A.B.E. says they offer the "Cutting Edge" Brass Solid in that 450-grain load at 2500 fps.

I like that nickel case with the brass bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I like that nickel case with the brass bullet.

That is the "CE-BS" that is supposed to be by CEB, from what I glean from A.B.E.'s web site.
Could it be a custom run by CEB for A.B.E ?
Is it optimized for the .458 WIN ?
Less seating depth and more brass ahead of the case mouth than the stocking variety at CEB ?

Here are all generations of North Fork .458"/ 450-grainers.
Some of them ought to be able to do 2500 fps too.



Some of those 450-grain North Forks can be loaded every which way.
The standard CEB brass FN 450-grainer is so peculiar in the bands that there is only one way to load it, but you have to trim the brass short (2.485") in order to do it.
Shades of the .458 Lott !
In fact, the .458 Lott can "shade" the .458 WIN with this bullet due to the peculiarities of the CEB drive bands.




Rip ...

The question of what brass 450-grain
bullet from "Cutting Edge" is
being loaded by ABE
to get over 6200 ft-lbs
with the .458 WIN is a good one.
Shows how bullets can be "metamorphosed"
for optimum performance.
That is the idea behind BBM Technology.

Rip ...

IIRC the band position on the 450 grain was to be ideal for the B&M cartridge.

Beautiful 450 grain bullets.

Amazing how closely some of them resemble my .458 NF 450 grain bullets !
This is meant as a compliment by the way, as the NF are among my favorites.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Paul,

Where to begin ?
Wherever you like. I won't be jumping on the solar-powered sailboat with you and Greta.
Most of us come here to get away from that crap, to play, and not take ourselves so seriously.
Let us not be pathetic, eh?
The thread might die if the .458 WIN to .177 Thunberg ratio gets below 1.0, sort of like the tooth to tattoo ratio in diagnosing sociopathy,
a bad sign.
To get the tooth to tattoo ratio of this thread back up (going for infinity):
Rip ...

As I've said before, RIP, I drive a vehicle and fly in planes that run on petroleum derivatives, without paying offsets for the moment. As a shooter, I burn powder which is certain to release carbon dioxide, so I'm no puritan in these matters.

My position is that we should encourage governments to take the reins and either begin carbon trading regimes or, better, impose carbon taxes that will persuade all people and corporations to turn things around.

In this country the big companies (even BHP) are getting sick of waiting for the government and are rejigging business on their own. The Government and (Her Majesty's ) Opposition both know the truth of the matter but find themselves hostage to the coal-mining communities in the deep north, who are leaning to parties on the ratbag right.

Not to overburden the mission with several 458-disrupting posts, I'll include answers to Todd, Mike and CR here.

Todd, I realise that PhD candidates need to find subjects to write theses about and university departments need research projects to justify their existence. However, whatever they come up with will be evaluated by the examiners and most scientific research will be peer reviewed, esp. before being published in the respected journals.

There are of course supposedly scientific journals that will publish anything if the author pays a fat fee. Where would a struggling student get those fees on top of the already exorbitant university fees? I don't know but reckon those dudes from the cornflake colleges who write the gainsaying stuff find sponsorship without trouble. The fossil-fuel companies and organisations like the Heartland Institute would be eager to help, I bet.

One reason I think carbon taxes are the fairest way of tackling climate change is because, as you may be suggesting, carbon-trading schemes tend to become bean-fests for the banks. Also, when money is gathered as tax, it can (and should) be put back into mitigating climate change, something less likely under carbon trading.

Governments of all persuasions have sent delegations to the many UN climate-change conferences such as Kyoto and Paris and, as I've said before, British Conservative Party leaders beginning with Margaret Thatcher (not known for wanting to redistribute wealth) have been on board, so there may indeed be room for debate there.

Mike, it is beyond my ability to check every weather station around the world every day for a period long enough to establish that figure but I hear many earnest professors and physicists assure us that the world average 50 years ago, at least, was about 14 degrees C. The figure the UN conferences have wanted to limit warming to has been two degrees but, since it has already risen more than half a degree in 50 years and the world is going nowhere in holding further rises back, higher averages are almost certain within a century. And once the permafrost melts and unremitting forest-and-grass fires spread worldwide, the increases could become exponential.

The political divide you mention appears to be mainly in North America and Australia. Europe has been generally accepting of the science, though certain near-fascist parties have come out against it. Were it truly a left-right thing, however, China and Russia would be in the bag.

I haven't got time to research the motives of those companies you mention. The only thing I can tell you about Bangladesh is that when the sea levels do rise a metre and the growing weather chaos sends big storms as well, that country is going to generate a new kind of refugee - they may not qualify under the present definition but they'll still be homeless.

CR, I know you are a good man and have a grandson you love. Do you really want him and his own grandchildren to have to live in a world like that?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

My position is that we should encourage governments to take the reins and either begin carbon trading regimes or, better, impose carbon taxes that will persuade all people and corporations to turn things around.

Fuck me dead. Distribute money from countries like America, Australia and England etc. to Bangladesh.

That is what it is all about.

So right Mike this is all about a liberal political agenda and has nothing to do with science. The 'science' is skewed by picking strategic points in time to promote their position. Looking at the history of the world there are many times earth has been significantly warmer, dryer, cooler, wetter, pick your time prove your point. While it behoves us to promote conservation, and advanced technology, changing our collective cultures to the vision of the left is hardly the correct direction.

Interesting to note; no matter what the problem, the “fairest” solution is always a tax. My 19 year old son reminded me this week that the tea tax increase in 1776 was only 2%. Taxing energy usage at the source is a giant transfer of wealth from the producers to the non producers.
Look at all the work done this winter on loads and bullet redesign by Sir Rip, probably heated by natural gas and certainly lit with coal powered electricity, and maybe a bit of John Barleycorn. Taxing energy use stifles progress innovation and ultimately production.
Let the people be aware.
Carry on.

sambarman338,

Thanks for combining the responses to your critics into one reply so as to keep the tooth to tattoo ratio of this thread elevated.

Mike McGuire,
Paddles10,
Fury01,
Thanks for the words of wisdom.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Beautiful 450 grain bullets.

Amazing how closely some of them resemble my .458 NF 450 grain bullets !
This is meant as a compliment by the way, as the NF are among my favorites.

Those ARE North Fork .458"/ 450-grainers !
Here is the .458"/ 450-grainer from Bubba:



Rip ...

Some redeeming social value follows, to counteract the climate change romance, i.e., to keep the tooth to tattoo ratio of this thread up.

The 2020 catalog from CZ-USA seems to indicate that the rumors of the death of the CZ 550 Magnum are greatly exaggerated.

The CZ 557 pushfeed is available in both short and "long" actions (.30-06-length).
The CRF CZ 527 is the Micro-Mauser, too short for the .458 WIN.



Rip ...

Would adding wax to the hole increase expansion at lower velocity?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

My position is that we should encourage governments to take the reins and either begin carbon trading regimes or, better, impose carbon taxes that will persuade all people and corporations to turn things around.

Fuck me dead. Distribute money from countries like America, Australia and England etc. to Bangladesh.

That is what it is all about.

I'd love to see you explain exactly how Bangladesh is the central focus, Mike. In the meantime, I'd see it as just another canary in the coalmine when it floods and becomes unlivable but, being old, I probably won't live quite that long.

Yes, Paddle10, nature has its own rhythms but this threat is all our own work and it's just possible we could still turn it around if we pulled our collective fingers out.

You sound like a man of means, Fury01. As the saying goes, taxes are inevitable. The important thing is that they are the right taxes, ones that achieve something worthwhile. The conservatives weren't always right; they used to tax all sorts of things, like windows, and before progressive income tax came in the taxes were flat. So, even more than today, the rich got richer and the poor got the picture.

The 2% tea tax meant nothing much in itself, but it brought on a war that killed an enormous number of people and spoilt your nation's enjoyment of tea. The East India Company's monopoly was currupt, of course, but the tax was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

We are getting short of energy here for domestic use but renewable technology has advanced to a point where it is the cheapest power generation to build. The conservative parties won't give in, though, and insist we build new coal-burning power stations, just to placate their donors and back-country voters. The power they produce will not only be dirty but more expensive than renewables. Does that make sense to you?

Great work RIP.

Now you need to consider going into a small operation of re-manufacturing of the Barnes' TSX's. Who knows where that might go! At least a manual, maybe?

Over the years I've done some modifying of bullets but nothing on this scale.

Thanks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Thank you for the compliment Mr. Sambar. I am indeed a man of means. 6'1" 185 most of my adult life, and have always been strong for a skinny cowboy. I have a pretty darned good brain when measured amongest the population at large it seems. None of those "means" well applied, has resulted in great monetary gain but:
I have a warm place to sleep and plenty to eat. I have a couple of reliable accurate rifles and a couple of pistols I can bet my life on. My 1986 Chevy 4x4 still runs good, though like me has plenty of rust holes. I have a few National Championship trophy's gathering dust to remind me that I was young and capable once, though a pack rat tipped one over out in the saddle shed last week and broke the Horse off of it. No problem as JB weld can fix it.
I also have been saved from my many sins by the Perfect Lamb of God and as such know the true Savior of the world. I am ever grateful when hot water comes out of the wall to keep myself clean as it reminds me of the many years I did not have such luxury.
Best regards,
Fury01

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
the rich got richer and the poor got the picture.

Is that a common Aussie saying or you a Midnight Oil fan?

Renewable energy is fine but here in the US it is vastly more expensive to produce than fossil fuel and surely the feel good crowd driving their Teslas are using far more electricity than the solar farms and windmills produce so in essence it is a false premise from the start.

I'm for the "just use less energy" approach rather than the "eliminate fossil fuels" approach.
If you don't have to drive, don't. Turn the thermostat down and wear a sweater. Cook meals at home. Use less water. That sort of thing.

Unfortunately, here in CO the population explosion has put a huge demand on the utilities, roads, water and environment.
We have the infamous "Brown Cloud" back thanks to too much development, too many people and cars and shitty infrastructure.
Some high country terrain and lakes have had to be closed due to too many imported assholes tromping through the wilderness with no concern.
Life was really good here in the '90s...

I guess there is a 458WM correlation there somewhere...
Take what works, has always worked, and rather than pitching it out the window, apply a little new thought like RIP's modified monos and modern powders to make a thoroughly modern and even more capable platform.

HUVIUS,
My .458WM was delivered to me in SW Colorado in about 1983 or so and was fed a steady diet of 500 grain Hornady solids as I learned to love it. If you think that Colorado was great in the 90's, you should have seen it in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's! I have walked, ridden a horse or a Trial's motorcycle over every mountain in the Lower San Juan's as free as a bird could fly. I remember when the Telluride festival was just a fight between the Cowboys and the miners. I also skied on Telluride Ski area the year it opened. Little Aspen now.
Where I live now we have hundreds of Wind Generator towers. The insiders tell us that they will just pay for their cost about a week after they wear out. All that Electronics and Tower were created with the only real renewable Fuel; that being the carbon based Fossil Fuels. As long as we have the mighty .458WM we can keep turning Carbon based animals into future fossils can we not?
Wind is not renewable: The Sun is the cause agent of wind and the Sun is burning out, yes? Yes. Solar panels is not renewable because, again, the Sun is burning out. Does anybody out there know how to renew the Sun? Didn't think so.
Word meaning being changed to suit one's bias has always bothered me. Now that I am "woke" I sometimes speak about it. By the way, I woke this morning about 0430 and hope and pray I do it again tomorrow.
Our Country sits on a huge reserve of clean burning Natural Gas. Again, a carbon based Fossil Fuel. If folks want to drive a Tesla to assuage Environmental Privilege guilt, they best let us do some drilling, pipeline and distribution systems building and try to be quiet at the Planning and Zoning meetings so we can build some power plants to plug them into. Oh and the "Internet of Things" and your EHome will use a bit of power too.
There; two solid .458WM references and some truth, all for The Mission!

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I'd love to see you explain exactly how Bangladesh is the central focus, Mike.

I should have had Bangladesh etc.

sambarman338 is from the Australia state of Victoria. You could say it is the Australian counterpart of California.

As an example we have two large minor parties. The Greens are to the left of both major parties and One Nation is to the right of both major parties. The Greens do very well in Victoria and one Nation does not even bother with Victoria

That might explain to you his views on man made climate change and all associated bullshit.

BTW, Mike, not everyone in Australia, or even Victoria for that matter, agrees with Sambarman338's views on climate change and what we should do about it.

Personally, I think the climate change discussion should be taken to the political forum and not further derail the 458 thread.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
BTW, Mike, not everyone in Australia, or even Victoria for that matter, agrees with Sambarman338's views on climate change and what we should do about it.

Personally, I think the climate change discussion should be taken to the political forum and not further derail the 458 thread.

I agree but Sambarman338 keeps coming back with the bullshit. My last post was on the 458 following a clash with Sambarman338 but then he came back with more bullshit.

He should go to Political forum, I am there heaps of times and he can get plenty of mates there that are the extreme anti Trump and the world will bust into flames by 2030 bullshit.

Back to normal transmission...

I am still having feeding problems with my converted CZ550. Its taken a little longer as my smith has been incapacitated due to a car accident.


If you recall my rifle started life as a 375, as all LH CZ550’s do. While the mag boxes are different, ribbed in the case of the 375 and smooth in the case of the 458, there are differences in the actions as well. A section needed to be milled from the front of the 375 action. Also even the longest 458 loading I’m likely to ever use swims in the oversized mag box. This is definitely not a good thing.

I have spoken to a few smiths about this including CZ550 guru, Wayne Jacobson at AHR. He has been extremely helpful. In his opinion the 458WM is the most troublesome round to get to feed properly in a CZ550. The action is simply too long. In his opinion I should either ream out the chamber to 458 Lott or block the mag at the front. At this stage I have chosen to have the mag blocked at the front and will see how that goes.

I have also ordered another 458 mag box and a stiffer mag spring. Apparently the 416 Rigby versions use a stiffer spring.

It’s fine to talk about using minimal bullet shank crimped to take advantage of the long throat and mag box, but I personally don’t feel comfortable using ammo loaded to the extreme of the mag box.

At the risk of being thrown out of the 458WM fan club, if the blocked mag box doesn’t improve the feeding, then the chamber will be reamed out to 458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

My position is that we should encourage governments to take the reins and either begin carbon trading regimes or, better, impose carbon taxes that will persuade all people and corporations to turn things around.

Fuck me dead. Distribute money from countries like America, Australia and England etc. to Bangladesh.

That is what it is all about.

I'd love to see you explain exactly how Bangladesh is the central focus, Mike. In the meantime, I'd see it as just another canary in the coalmine when it floods and becomes unlivable but, being old, I probably won't live quite that long.

Yes, Paddle10, nature has its own rhythms but this threat is all our own work and it's just possible we could still turn it around if we pulled our collective fingers out.

You sound like a man of means, Fury01. As the saying goes, taxes are inevitable. The important thing is that they are the right taxes, ones that achieve something worthwhile. The conservatives weren't always right; they used to tax all sorts of things, like windows, and before progressive income tax came in the taxes were flat. So, even more than today, the rich got richer and the poor got the picture.

The 2% tea tax meant nothing much in itself, but it brought on a war that killed an enormous number of people and spoilt your nation's enjoyment of tea. The East India Company's monopoly was currupt, of course, but the tax was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

We are getting short of energy here for domestic use but renewable technology has advanced to a point where it is the cheapest power generation to build. The conservative parties won't give in, though, and insist we build new coal-burning power stations, just to placate their donors and back-country voters. The power they produce will not only be dirty but more expensive than renewables. Does that make sense to you?

Wow, u definitely swallowed the liberals mantra hook line and sinker
Very small step from vilifying someone because of their energy choice and use . To deeming them unfit to govern themselves and their affairs.

My apologies guys, and especially RIP. I'm the guy that brought up the AGW comparison in the first place. Although I participated in the follow on discussions, my intent was not to pollute the thread with politics.

My intent was to draw comparison with other topics which are often considered "settled" by the great unwashed masses and only upon digging into the topic, does one find discrepancies with what has been spoon fed to us.

The same thing was evident in the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread with Michael and Sam's testing of the OSR hoax. Here in the 458 WM thread, RIP has laid bare the common misconception of the Lott's superiority over the WM. Maybe in the "As Jack Built It" guise with a properly sized magazine, but those aren't the SAAMI dimensions on which today's rifles are produced.

I just love these types of discussions. I have an unexplained disdain for anything of "common knowledge" that is loaded with inconsistencies. And I especially love to see those inconsistencies exposed by the light of truth! The denials are the most entertaining!!

Carry on with the mission RIPster and please accept my apologies for threatening the tattoo to tooth ratio.

Todd: No worries MIGHT !
(That was in my best Australian accent.)
I see you know the medicalese jargon for sociopathy.
Advanced psychiatry training at Top Gun School ?

Here is the justification for decreasing the tattoo to tooth ratio, snagged on a fishing trip on another thread, caught there and released here:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Brandon.Gleason:
Its a shame that linked thread went to shit with political banter.

I wonder how long it will be until the 527 follows suite with the 550. Might be the excuse I need to pick one up.

Wasn't there another thread somewhere with counts of which barreled actions/rifles CZ had in stock vs which went to Triple River for customs? Sounded like a pretty short list for each caliber if I recall correctly.

Thanks for that. It will be copied to THAT OTHER THREAD, hopefully to improve its tooth to tattoo ratio.
And for those without enough attention span to scroll upward from where that link takes them,
here it is again ...

Never fear, more teeth will soon be erupting.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would adding wax to the hole increase expansion at lower velocity?

Another method of fine-tuning the bullet weight when Bubba gets off by a tenth of a grain.
He calls it the Added Wax Exactitude (AWE !) process of Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis.
On bullet impact it becomes the Lost Wax Casting process of Bubba Bullet Terminal Ballistics.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Great work RIP.

Now you need to consider going into a small operation of re-manufacturing of the Barnes' TSX's. Who knows where that might go! At least a manual, maybe?

BBM philosophy is that of teaching a man to fish ... so he can feed himself.

Over the years I've done some modifying of bullets but nothing on this scale.

Thanks.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Buy a donkey for those flowers, Bob.
BBM strives to provide the simplest method of converting the too-long-for-hunting Barnes 500-gr TSX into
accurate and deadly and perfect for the .458 WIN:

The nominal "480-grain" Woodleigh HYDRO .458 bullet is actually lighter: 473.1 grains and BOL of 1.473".
It works, no tumbling early on after impact has been reported that I know of.
With the little green plastic "feed cap" on the HYDRO it weighs 478.7 grains and is 1.627" long,
feed cap shatters immediately away on impact.

I feel quite safe in saying that the 0.003" shorter T6 HYDRA bullets (BOL 1.470") will be stable on impact.
The meplat diameters of all the above are similar.
The more pronounced bevel on the T6 HYDRA SS meplat reduces its leading/presenting/wetted meplat diameter to about 0.310" (67.7% of bullet caliber).
That is considered to be about optimum.
Better feeding with adequate shoulder stabilization on impact.
The beveled edge starting up the feed ramp is a slicker thing than with the sharper edge of the T6 HYDRA HP.
This might result in a third variety of HYDRA, done by reducing the weight to exactly 480.0 grains by drilling the hollow point a bit.
Eventually there may be only one T6 HYDRA 480-grainer.
Or 482 grains can be a 480 too.
Bubba prefers a nominal 480-grainer heavy in the loafers instead of light in the loafers like the HYDRO .458"/ 480-gr bullet from Woodleigh.

Rip ...

So, the T6 HYDRA 480-grainer can be seated to the 5th cannelure, crimped hard up against the bottom of the 4th driving band,
COL = 3.590", with 2.500" brass, 0.380" seating depth.
Easy to back off by 0.010" for COL = 3.600", 0.370" seating depth: PERFECT for the .458 WIN-V 3.6" !
That fills the throat of the .458 WIN, like seating an unaltered 500-gr TSX-FB to 3.780".
That is very accurate in the .458 WIN-V 3.8".

The same T6 HYDRA 480-grainer can be seated and crimped on 2nd or 3rd cannelures, hard up against the driving band above the cannelure,
seating depths 0.710" or 0.600", for COLs of 3.260" or 3.370".
Ease off a bit and those COLs can become 3.280" or 3.390" respectively.
Most SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. factory rifle magazine boxes will easily handle a COL of 3.390": PERFECT AGAIN !
But I call that the .458 WIN-V 3.4" if you load it over 3.340" for COL.

The short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott must be loaded to a shorter COL with the T6 HYDRA 480-grainer than the maximum that the .458 WIN-V 3.6" allows.
PERFECT AGAIN AND AGAIN !
V for Victory, .458 WIN-V !
The Lottites have lost the war.

Rip ...

Beeswax would be the bees knees for the sake of taste and non toxic when eating the game and beeswax has a high melting temperature for Africa temps. Testing is needed!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Would adding wax to the hole increase expansion at lower velocity?

Another method of fine-tuning the bullet weight when Bubba gets off by a tenth of a grain.
He calls it the Added Wax Exactitude (AWE !) process of Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis.
On bullet impact it becomes the Lost Wax Casting process of Bubba Bullet Terminal Ballistics.

Rip ...