I have three "Ella" sisters fighting over the old cartridge,
not just two blonds.

Alderella
.458 WIN LongCOL 3.4" (yes, 3.395" exceeds SAAMI), aka "The Knik Knocker," and "Alder Queen," inspired by CTF's "Spruce King":



Marcella
.458 WIN LongCOL 3.6", inspired by "Cassius Marcellus Clay" (both the white and the black fighters),
Marcellus/Marcella refers to dedication to "Mars" the red god of war and fertility (!):



Bobbarrella
.458 WIN LongCOL 3.8": Bob Mitchell is her godfather. He is THE GODFATHER of the .458 WIN LongCOL:



BTW,
Marcella is a 3 + 1 fourshooter, holds about 3-1/2 cartridges down in her box,
CRFs the fourth cartridge off the top of the box to chamber without having to pushfeed, unless you just want to be lazy,
feeds and ejects wonderfully with all nose types out to 3.6" COL,
using my ever-ready dummies.
Same with .458/.416 Ruger LongCOL 3.6".

Any fallow .416 Rem.Mag. Winchester M70 Classic is a great donor rifle for re-barreling to either chambering with a .458 barrel.

7.5 pounds like Marcella,
or use a #5 sporter barrel and a heavier stock for about 8.5 pounds.

Make that Sunnyhill-McMillan drop belly, magnum fill, and add all the barrel hardware you can think of to that #5 sporter and get over 9 pounds.

The thought of running a reamer into Marcella to convert from .458 WIN to .458/.416 Ruger does not tempt me in the least.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We are on page 168, discussing a cartridge designed by someone who should have known better.

Like many other cartridges, it works, it does what is supposed to do, but there are so many cartridges better at everything this one does around.

Some of you lot are almost as bad as two drunk blondes at a party fighting over a rich 80 year old man, who is blind, deaf, mute, and wearing an expensive suit!

The .458 WIN made Peter Hathaway Capstick's career possible.
This made Saeed what he is.
We would not be here having all this fun if not for the .458 WIN.
Amen.

Rip ...

Saeed talking smack about the .458 WIN is very entertaining,
mainly because it is so wrong that it is too funny.
I almost busted a gut on that last one !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed talking smack about the .458 WIN is very entertaining,
mainly because it is so wrong that it is too funny.
I almost busted a gut on that last one !

Rip ...

Ron,

Saeed is doing what he does on the Political Forum, that is, just repeats his posts and always either has the rolling face or clapping hands. In fact I think Saeed has his posts in a drop down list. On the PF forum he has the exact same post on Trump irrespective of what is in the thread.

Be interesting to see Saeed come to Australia for some spotlight shooting and inland for the big red roos and pigs and try that 375/404 with 300 grain mono metals against 400 grain Speer flat points from 458. He can forget show placement as not just shooting from a moving 4WD but often a speeding 4WD. The 458 will win. Guaranteed Saeed being the "hunter" will want to follow up animals ….he would be doing that on his own as the 4WD will have moved on to chase more stuff We could pick him up next morning.

The 458 would be last choice in shooting Roos and pigs!

But, I do understand our friends from Down Under doing so.

They are upside down!

I think the ultimate roo spotlight hunting cart is something you can shoot while standing up in a moving off-road vehicle with quick recovery to get multiple off hand shots off. it has to be lethal on bad shots too.
257 Weatherby?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I think the ultimate roo spotlight hunting cart is something you can shoot while standing up in a moving off-road vehicle with quick recovery to get multiple off hand shots off. it has to be lethal on bad shots too.
257 Weatherby?

Too much muzzle blast. Actually pro shooters use 223.

Probably best for hits anywhere is a 308 and 130 grain Speer hollow points.

Wit two blokes shooting in the back of 4WD and bloke in the middle with light and often a bloke in the passenger seat you bound to cop the blast at different times and that is where the 257 is not good.

But that 40 grain Speer at 2000 f/s is a real killer and muzzle blast is low, sort of a flat bang.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
But that 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s is a real killer and muzzle blast is low, sort of a flat bang.

I am sure Saeed imagines the trajectory of a mortar:
BLOOP ... Doppler shifting whistle going downrange ... THWACK (sound of bullet striking varmint) ... DRT

Sounds to me like an excellent stalking load for Marcella, I'll sure try it.
I have a stockpile of .458/400-gr Speers.

A Leupold 2.5X weighs 6.5 ounces.
Two of the 1"-low Burris Xtreme Tactical rings weigh 5 ounces.
Marcella will be a half-ounce under 8.25 lbs with that scope.

A Nikon Prostaff P3 3-9x40mm BDC in 1"-medium rings weighs 1 lb 6 oz.
Marcella so scoped = 8 lbs 14 oz.
Add a half pound for ammo.

Rip ...

quote:

A Leupold 2.5X weighs 6.5 ounces.
Two of the 1"-low Burris Xtreme Tactical rings weigh 5 ounces.
Marcella will be a half-ounce under 8.25 lbs with that scope.

A Nikon Prostaff P3 3-9x40mm BDC in 1"-medium rings weighs 1 lb 6 oz.
Marcella so scoped = 8 lbs 14 oz.
Add a half pound for ammo.

No flies on those, RIP.
Just as the same platform would be with a 416 Ruger.
A rebarreled Tikka might be interesting, getting down to 7 1/2 pounds, scoped. Kawagbunga
But knowing me, I'd probably just get an African Hawkeye off the shelf and live with an 8 3/4lb rifle 2x7Nikon or 9 1/4 3x9NikonShotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Once the SAAMI max OAL is exceeded, it becomes a wildcat of sorts. A “Wild Berry” if you will.

Just four remarks:

1) If extending the COL of ANY cartridge makes it a "wildcat", then most of the cartridges I've handloaded for over the past four decades would have been "wildcats" according to boom stick, and a few others who seem to be offended by what is claimed for the .458 Win Mag. But since no change has been made to, or advocated for, the STANDARD chamber of ANY factory .458 Win Mag, how is "wildcat" therefore being interpreted if not in a non-standard way?

2) Some of today's well known handloading manuals show "standard" loads for the .458 Win Mag as achieving 2160 to 2200 fps from 500s at LESS than standard max psi! Hodgdon, Accurate, Hornady and Barnes.

3) I was able to get 2200 fps from several powders shooting the 500gr Hornady from a "standard" 25" CZ550 at SAAMI COL without any signs of excess pressure. At COL of 3.56" for the Hornady, I got 2283 fps from H4895. And that was ten years ago before I had access to AA2230. At a COL of 3.78", I did seat the Barnes - X 450gr longer than possible for a Lott.

4) As RIP has pointed out several times, the .458 WIN has been kept to 60,000 psi ARBITRARILY by SAAMI while granting 62500 psi to the LOTT, without any sense of rationality!

If calling the 458 Win Mag, as loaded safely by RIP and others, a "wildcat" is the best some can come up with in order to somehow discredit its nomenclature, then to prove their sincerity they'd better do the same for ANY and EVERY cartridge that exceeds SAAMI in ANY way, including MV. The .300 Win Mag as promoted by Nosler is only one example among thousands! SAAMI says a 180gr at 2960 fps is "standard. Nosler shows their 180gr at up to 3160 fps... 200 fps faster than "standard!

Frankly, I question the sincerity of any such aspersions.

And, please, RIP, don't ever give an "inch" to such criticisms by ever referring to a long seated .458 as a "wildcat"!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

The .458 Win is good, but to think of it as the best all around cartridge is more than a stretch.

Who has hunted the world with just a .458 Win? Think of Herb Klein and his .300 Weatherby...anyone ever do anything similar with a .458?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The .458 Win is good, but to think of it as the best all around cartridge is more than a stretch.

Who has hunted the world with just a .458 Win? Think of Herb Klein and his .300 Weatherby...anyone ever do anything similar with a .458?

Wasn't that Elgin Gates who shot everything with the 300 Wby?

No principal on this thread is calling the .458WM "the Best all around cartridge." Fulfilling the Mission required a solid defense of it's all around use when the topic arose. Mission accomplished and now we move on.

OK Bob!
I am dropping the wildcat angle.
Just calling it the .458 WIN for short or to be proper, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Just that simple.




The 3-9x40mm Nikon shotgun scope barely makes it to a fit.
Divinely foreordained.
The 2.5X Leupold is the all-purpose backup scope.
Predestined.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Who has hunted the world with just a .458 Win? Think of Herb Klein and his .300 Weatherby...anyone ever do anything similar with a .458?

Only a real man would do such a thing.
I am working on it.



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Who has hunted the world with just a .458 Win? Think of Herb Klein and his .300 Weatherby...anyone ever do anything similar with a .458?

Only a real man would do such a thing.
I am working on it.



Rip ...

I like that rifle!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The .458 Win is good, but to think of it as the best all around cartridge is more than a stretch.

Who has hunted the world with just a .458 Win? Think of Herb Klein and his .300 Weatherby...anyone ever do anything similar with a .458?

Wasn't that Elgin Gates who shot everything with the 300 Wby?

Yes, maybe more so than Herb Klein who used both a .300 Wby.Mag. and a .375 Wby.Mag. on his 1953 Safari.

For Bob:


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
No principal on this thread is calling the .458WM "the Best all around cartridge."

I disagree.
IMHO, the .458 WIN is undoubtedly the single best choice for all-around use, for anything a firearm might be used for.



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The .458 Win is good, but to think of it as the best all around cartridge is more than a stretch.

I don't think so. We will ignore you fucked on Herb and the 300 Wby . In fact time to bring the thread up again on his rifles.

No one is critical of the 458 on elephant and buffalo etc. In my case I have proven it is tops for smaller animals. The number of the big red kangaroos, pigs, emus and goats I have shot with the 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s second are numbers like you Americans shoot Prairie Dogs. I will also add that lots of long range. Australia is a country that is not only the driest and most arid BUT once you move from the coast is all dead flat as far as your car can go.

As I have already posted I have done better with the 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s than the 270 for shots fired to hits obtained.

Big bullets at lower velocities seem to have a "feel" about them. Check several pages back and Sharpsguy. All his shooting is 1200 - 1300 f/s and look what he does on both animals and target.

Got me thinking Rip. Thank you. So best all around is a high hill to climb. If I were to climb it I would have to start at the most demanding task end at I suppose that to be what we call dangerous game. My choice for that would be the great and wonderful 458 Winchester. I regularly hunt whitetail with mine and would be glad to hunt anything else with it as well.
The “firearm” label for any task is a bit too wide for me. Hunting rifle is more in line with my thoughts. I still prefer my small frame 38 in a pocket or my 1911 in a holster for close in two legged work. As we stand today we have the luxury of choices we can enjoy. May it ever be so forever.

Seems to be a topic for a different thread about best overall cartridge...

I would say there is more argument for the 7 Mauser over the 458 WM.
I would want to argue the 35 or 400 Whelen over the 458 WM but more would say the 375 HH.
Best is best determined by the ass behind the buttstock.

Just defending the Flank Sir.
Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

The .458 Win is good, but to think of it as the best all around cartridge is more than a stretch.

I don't think so. We will ignore you fucked on Herb and the 300 Wby . In fact time to bring the thread up again on his rifles.

No one is critical of the 458 on elephant and buffalo etc. In my case I have proven it is tops for smaller animals. The number of the big red kangaroos, pigs, emus and goats I have shot with the 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s second are numbers like you Americans shoot Prairie Dogs. I will also add that lots of long range. Australia is a country that is not only the driest and most arid BUT once you move from the coast is all dead flat as far as your car can go.

As I have already posted I have done better with the 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s than the 270 for shots fired to hits obtained.

Big bullets at lower velocities seem to have a "feel" about them. Check several pages back and Sharpsguy. All his shooting is 1200 - 1300 f/s and look what he does on both animals and target.

First, I know that Elgin Gates occasionally hunted with the 458WM, recalling his boating for water buffalo in South America.

Second, this calibre really does have application for species not generally regarded as dangerous. Our Indian elk called sambar seem to have low blood pressure and almost always run when well hit with lesser calibres, and can easily be lost in the thick stuff.

A friend disgusted by needing seven .303 bullets to stop one has used a .458 for about 50 years since and finds it one calibre likely to stop stags where they are hit.

Fury01,

Indeed, the view from that high hill is better with a .458 WIN in hand,
and aren't we all more polite with a handgun in our pocket?
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
First, I know that Elgin Gates occasionally hunted with the 458WM, recalling his boating for water buffalo in South America.

Yep, whenever he wasn't hunting elephant with the .300 Wby.Mag.

Second, this calibre really does have application for species not generally regarded as dangerous. Our Indian elk called sambar seem to have low blood pressure and almost always run when well hit with lesser calibres, and can easily be lost in the thick stuff.

A friend disgusted by needing seven .303 bullets to stop one has used a .458 for about 50 years since and finds it one calibre likely to stop stags where they are hit.

Hear HERE !

Rip ...

To my horror I realized I had not requested magazine box reinforcement and glass bedding on Marcella so had to do it myself.
Did it all with J-B-Weld, and glued on the scope bases too:

No rattle with a full magazine.
Not-quite-random photograph posting supports THE MISSION.

Rip ...

RIP
Do you know how much weight the JB weld added to the forearm?

I'm guessing only about 2 oz if the forearm was fairly full-surfaced, but I'd like to dear a confirmation. Sometimes epoxy weight depends on how hollow the stock is and how much goes into filling cavities.

Ah, somebody cares !

Dang Rip! I'll bet the Hardware store in your town has record sales of JB Weld for the State! I think we can regard you as the 458WM All Around Wizard of JB Weld!
I personally covet your Ruger Zytel Stocked 458WM by the way. Just looks ready to GO in every way!!
dmw

Scopes:
2.5x20mm Leupold Ultralight, with rings and flip-up lens covers: About 12 ounces
3-9x40mm Nikon P3 Shotgun-BDC, with rings and no flip-up lens covers: About 20 ounces, a half pound heavier.

Field ready rifle weight, minimum, at 13.5" LOP, no sling or ammo carrier:

7#10oz: Rifle with scope bases
0#12oz: Scope and rings
5.5oz: 300-gr ammo, 4 rounds
Total: 8#11.5oz, or about 8-3/4 pounds.

Add 5 oz for LOP adjusted to LOP 14.5", and softer on the shoulder.
Add 2 oz for ultralight homemade sling (plastic buckles off an old backpack) including 1-1/4" Uncle Mike's swivels.
Add 1 oz for empty buttstock ammo carrier, cut down for only 4 rounds.
All that adds a half pound more: 9.25 pounds.

Use the 1/2-pound heavier scope: 9.75 pounds.

Switch to loading with 500-grain bullets: 9#14oz, adding one extra 500-grainer round to the buttstock carrier: Just a hair under 10 pounds.

One consolation: Remove the scope bases and the bare/empty rifle is still 7.5 pounds, close as I can measure.
Easier said than done now !

Rip ...

Fury01,

Buy a buy a donkey, for noticing that I like J-B Weld.
I find it in the 10-oz pack at auto parts stores.
That is a 5-oz tube of the black "Epoxy Steel Resin" and a 5-oz tube of the white "Epoxy Steel Hardener."
Must come in handy for exhaust system and body work.

I wonder why most gunsmiths act like they never heard of the stuff ?
A 10-oz pack will do 5 Marcellas.
With duct tape, J-B Weld, bastard file, and Dremel Tool, most gunsmithing chores may be attempted.

Rip ...

Great stuff RIP!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Buy a buy a donkey, Bob, as Elvis would say in Afrikaans, after applause.

Ye olde Pre-'64 African weighed 8.5 pounds with iron sights.
Marcella weighs 7.5 pounds with no iron sights.
She is good for scope.
I am tempted to put a banded front sight on her just for looks, if not for use with a peep sight on her rear scope base.
She would still be under 8 pounds, iron sighted.
If I do, I will specify use of one shallow indexing screw and J-B Weld to secure it !

Rip ...