quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is no such thing as BEST CARTRIDGE.

Best cartridge for what??

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
But I like hunting at 2600-2800 fps.

Your descriptions lead me back to . . .
< drum roll >

the 416 Ruger

Your specification leads me back to the .458 WIN.
.458/350-grain TSX at 2750 fps, 3.435" COL,
or 2650 fps at 3.335" COL.
I would use the light and fast bullets on top of a magazine full of 480-grainers at 2300 fps, softs or solids (DGX or DGS), at 3.340" COL,
if limited to shortCOL.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I would never hunt with a cartridge supported by a draft dodging wimp!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I would never hunt with a cartridge supported by a draft dodging wimp!

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I would never hunt with a cartridge supported by a draft dodging wimp!

Saeed;

You're shovelling "dirty politics", I don't think you want to go there because if the Democrats (USA) and Liberals (Canada) have their way, sometime in the not too distant future, none of us will be contributing anything to AR because we'll have nothing to write about!

I'm sure you get the drift...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed could have used some handloads for his seagull shooting with the .458 WIN.
Many excellent seagull loads will suit the SAAMI restricted cartridge just fine.
I have not tried the 250-grainer yet but expect it to get to 3000 fps quite easily,at 3.340" COL and sub 60,000 psi.
Here is a monometal of gilding metal that won't vaporize at 3000 fps,
even if the polymer tip does:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As Ronnie would say,

Well, there you go again!

Your statement of the versatility of the .458 WM is predicated on nonstandard cartridges, and the willingness of the hand loader to do things that are not in any recognized reloading manual... (I am not claiming it’s unsafe).

If a nonstandard cartridge is ok, and a modified mag box is ok, then rethroating a different case is OK.

If you are allowed to do these things, then it doesn’t matter what the starting point is- it isn’t what you started with when you get to the practical use.

The .458 as loaded by the factory is a good DG round.

The recoil isn’t too bad, but is notable. There are other standard options that have less, including DG legal rounds.

The bullet is of good diameter and mass, but If you want bigger diameter or heavier slugs, there are other appropriate options.

If you want higher velocities, there are options that don’t require wildcatting.

In order to make the .458 as “versatile” as claimed, it’s no longer a .458 WM - as is shown by RIP’s consistent nomenclature variations.

Again, no flies on the .458 WM, but it’s not the be all-end all of DG rifles, or rifles in general. It has its strengths and weaknesses like all other chamberings. And the others can be fiddled with just like the .458 to move up or down the scale as well.

Still, if I want a 500 grain .458 bullet at 2100 I think I’d be getting a nice old .450 NE. I like the nostalgia of the old doubles, and with modern bullets, it’s just as effective as the WM or the Lott on game at the distances I would shoot that type of bullet at.

I’m not quite a Luddite, as I would put a RMR type sight on it, though.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

What can the 458 WM that the 450 NE can’t do with an extended pinky?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Once the SAAMI max OAL is exceeded, it becomes a wildcat of sorts. A “Wild Berry” if you will.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Just being pedantic

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Once the SAAMI max OAL is exceeded, it becomes a wildcat of sorts. A “Wild Berry” if you will.

Not really because the rifle can still be used with factory ammo. The chamber specifications have not been changed.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Well, this is great !
THE MISSION has made real progress !
No longer do they claim the .458 WIN is inferior !
They claim that some other cartridges can be monkeyed with to make them competitive with THE GREATEST, the .458 WIN,
which needs no monkeying with at all, but does benefit greatly by simply having a little extra magazine room.

Mike did a great job of fielding the foul balls.
Buy a buy a donkey, Mike.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The "Exactly Rifle" got out of rehab today:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP
Would you rather a double in 450 NE or 458 WM?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
This is screaming for a fiber optic front and a peep sight

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Red dot sight?
If you are worried about getting beat up, hit the floor and do push ups! Keep that one a sexy stalking rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

So can any AI cartridge chamber rifle. Ditto the .375 WBY. Many of them are SAAMI speced now.

Like I said before, it isn’t unsafe- but that case with that long loaded round won’t function normally in a completely factory rifle from the magazine. Top that off with that you can’t find this information in any powder company’s current web site or published loading manual, you are in no man’s land.

RIP can pull it off safely, as can many here, but would you recommend it to some relative neophyte out in South Africa without benefit of high speed internet and very limited components?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The "Exactly Rifle" got out of rehab today:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

The only downside on all of this 458Win talk is that the case capacity is on the small-side for a .458" bore, as all of your special options testify, between the lines. It's a shame that the Ruger case was not available in 1956 for a slightly more versatile light-carry rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

So can any AI cartridge chamber rifle. Ditto the .375 WBY. Many of them are SAAMI speced now.

Like I said before, it isn’t unsafe- but that case with that long loaded round won’t function normally in a completely factory rifle from the magazine. Top that off with that you can’t find this information in any powder company’s current web site or published loading manual, you are in no man’s land.

RIP can pull it off safely, as can many here, but would you recommend it to some relative neophyte out in South Africa without benefit of high speed internet and very limited components?

The 458 loaded to 3.6" would work from some factory 458s. Unless they have changed the Rem 700 has the 3.6" (actually I think they are 3.65") on all of them and Sako used to be the same.

I can't see anything unsafe in any of the loads in a standard 458, including those with standard length magazine as chamber is the same.

Also what Ron is talking about bears no relationship to firing 375 H&H in 375 Wby/AI etc. He is using standard 458 Winchester chamber and firing his loads and his 458s are no different to a 458 factory rifle off the shelf, except of course those with standard length magazine but that is not a "firing issue" but a loading the magazine issue.

Simply can't see a problem anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

The only downside on all of this 458Win talk is that the case capacity is on the small-side for a .458" bore, as all of your special options testify, between the lines. It's a shame that the Ruger case was not available in 1956 for a slightly more versatile light-carry rifle.

How would the case capacity of 458 Ruger compare to a 458 Win with 3.6" magazine as Ron is loading.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
...
As I said multiple times, the .458 is a good solid choice in its factory guise... but its hardly the ultimate or the do all; and if your argument about how much better it is than the Lott revolves around using it in a nonstandard way, then you have to use the Lott in a nonstandard way. Increase the throat dimensions and add a rigby length mag box and gee, that Lott can do more than the Win mag if you play the same games with it...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
...
As I said multiple times, the .458 is a good solid choice in its factory guise... but its hardly the ultimate or the do all; and if your argument about how much better it is than the Lott revolves around using it in a nonstandard way, then you have to use the Lott in a nonstandard way. Increase the throat dimensions and add a rigby length mag box and gee, that Lott can do more than the Win mag if you play the same games with it...

Forgive my ignorance, CR, but isn't RIP's argument that the 458WM can be fed long-COL loads without lengthening the throat?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
How would the case capacity of 458 Ruger compare to a 458 Win with 3.6" magazine as Ron is loading.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
...
As I said multiple times, the .458 is a good solid choice in its factory guise... but its hardly the ultimate or the do all; and if your argument about how much better it is than the Lott revolves around using it in a nonstandard way, then you have to use the Lott in a nonstandard way. Increase the throat dimensions and add a rigby length mag box and gee, that Lott can do more than the Win mag if you play the same games with it...

When you have a 3.8" box and a bullet long enough to load to 3.780" in the .458 WIN, you have just about reached the end of your rope.
That same bullet cannot be loaded that long in the SAAMI .458 Lott throat, so yes, you do have to lengthen the throat on the Lott ...
make it like the wildcat that Jack Lott built by rechambering .458 WIN rifles with no barrel setback ...
and then you can load it to the same 3.780" length or squeeze it on out another 0.020" in length,
for a BIG IMPROVEMENT !

Forgive my ignorance, CR, but isn't RIP's argument that the 458WM can be fed long-COL loads without lengthening the throat?