BadBoyMelvin: YOU BAD !

Buy a donkey for that.
That is great support of THE MISSION, except for the "Weatherby" on your forehead, ditto Bob.

The culprit:



Could you not reverse that rear scope base and thus maybe move the scope forward a bit?

Rip ...

The Bobbsey Twins are 9 pounds each as shown, wearing same scopes, Weaver Grand Slam Dangerous Game 1-5x24mm.
The scopes weigh 1 pound each.
Both sets of rings are 6 ounces each.
Both scope and ring combos are 1# 6oz each.
Both rifles, dry and empty, are 7# 10oz each.
The scoped rifles are 9# 0oz each.

Alice the 9.3x62mm Mauser, CZ 550 Medium FS with 20.5" barrel:



Marcella the 11.7x64mm Winchester Belted, Winchester M70 Classic LA with 23" barrel:



Alice is a sweet little girl. Marcella is a tomboy.

The Bobbsey Twins' eye relief with scopes as shown above is about like badboymelvin's rifle.
I can only hope the Butler Creek lens caps are a little easier on my forehead.

The CZ LOP is ~14-1/8" with trigger not set, and ~14-3/8" with trigger set.
I do not need to add a LOP-adjusting slip-on pad to her,
and recoil is light so she probably won't let any of my blood.

The M70 LOP is 13.5" without slip-on LOP Adjuster,
so I get it to 14.5" with the slip-on leather pad and some high-density foam rubber padding.
That is no doubt helpful at preventing Weatherby Forehead blood letting.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
BadBoyMelvin: YOU BAD !

Buy a donkey for that.
That is great support of THE MISSION, except for the "Weatherby" on your forehead, ditto Bob.

The culprit:



Could you not reverse that rear scope base and thus maybe move the scope forward a bit?

Rip ...

Oh my gosh RIP! That is EXACTLY what I did as soon as I got home!

It gave me an extra 1/2 inch or so eye relief and when I re-sighted it yesterday it didn't kiss me once

I see a lot of big bores with forward mounted sling studs on stock I’ve gouged my hand on them I see the one mounted straight out the front which would work but a barrel band seems to be the way to go or flush mounted attachment. I used to think it was just cosmetic till I started shooting offhand a lot. Understand it a costly addition to a rifle but definitely has its place on a big bore. Continue the mission....

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I see a lot of big bores with forward mounted sling studs on stock I’ve gouged my hand on them I see the one mounted straight out the front which would work but a barrel band seems to be the way to go or flush mounted attachment. I used to think it was just cosmetic till I started shooting offhand a lot. Understand it a costly addition to a rifle but definitely has its place on a big bore. Continue the mission....

Don't forget the fact that barrel-band sling swivels look fantastic!
I really think they give a big bore rifle that 'safari' look...

Undoubtably....

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I see a lot of big bores with forward mounted sling studs on stock I’ve gouged my hand on them I see the one mounted straight out the front which would work but a barrel band seems to be the way to go or flush mounted attachment. I used to think it was just cosmetic till I started shooting offhand a lot. Understand it a costly addition to a rifle but definitely has its place on a big bore. Continue the mission....

Don't forget the fact that barrel-band sling swivels look fantastic!
I really think they give a big bore rifle that 'safari' look...

I first drew blood from my left index finger with a conventionally mounted forend sling stud in 2001.
I got too relaxed with a 6.75-pound (dry/empty) .375 H&H on a Botswana safari.
Since then I started moving those sling studs to the tip of the forend, on rifles that do not have a barrel-banded stud from the get go.



I first saw that in a Ross Seyfried article in G&A about 1985, though it did not sink in then.
I now prefer this to the barrel band.



I have several rifles with the Brockman contraption that involves a long steel bar inletted into the barrel channel,
secured by 4 screws and buried by glass bedding with the sling stud sticking out under the barrel.
That is overkill, unless you want to use it for added weight to balance a muzzle-light/butt-heavy rifle.

Here is a wonderful barrel-band sling mounting by Phil Shoemaker himself, using duct tape with special overlay of night-sight-white tape:



Notice the admirable eye relief of scope.
Back end of ocular bell (forhead cookie cutter) is best aligned with backside of trigger guard, or even forward of that, as here.
We should all strive for this on a serious-for-hunting .458 WIN.
Safety first !

Rip ...

Marcella gets serious:

Leupold 2.5x20mm in Low Burris XTac rings weighs 11 oz.
Scoped rifle with no ammo weighs: 8 lbs 5 oz.
Add 4 rounds of 500-gr-bulleted ammo: 8.75 pounds



A strip of glow tape running along the top of the barrel would be a dandy night sight.

Rip ...

From the other thread of shorter title than this one ("458 win mag" instead of "458 winchester magnum"),
there is this interesting anecdote:

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:
I have a couple of photos some where of a clients wounded Buffalo Bull (shot with 338 Ultra Mag, did kill two others nicely) I backed up on with the .458Win & a Factory (can't remember off hand but I think Winchester) solid, hit it in the right back leg & it came out the nose of the Bull !!

We were all impressed, the Bull the most lol !

Too bad the anecdote was not more certain about the ammo used, but the .458 WIN did the job with a factory load, reportedly.
That is supposed to be an impossiblity according to the Lottites.

And a .338 RUM killed two out of three buffalo without .458 WIN backup ?
That speaks to the "Bear Bullets P1" blogging by Bob at: www.bigbores.ca
Bob prefers a .458-caliber bullet over even his beloved 9.3mm bullet.

@bcelliott: Yep, ".26, .36, and .46" rifles make a most efficient battery for all big game hunting, far and near.
The .36 would be a bit of a stretch to do it all.
The .26 would be a bigger stretch.
The .46 would be safest one-gun choice, regarding integrity of the hunter's skin, whatever the varmint size, obviously.
I would choose a .26 + .46 combo if allowed two rifles,
just like Selous did, with the new-fangled smokeless choices.
Throw in the .36 if allowed three rifles, and try not to use it for everything.

Rip ...

quote:

I would choose a .26 + .46 combo if allowed two rifles,

So a person is tooling around in the back of a hunting vehicle when they come upon some hartebeest. The PH asks, 'do you want to track these?' "Absolument!" So the hunter grabs her 26 and they begin a track and stalk. After more than half a kilometer and 20 minutes later the tracks lead across a large opening and some buffalo are off at the far end. Buffalo is still on the license, but should one attempt that nice bull with a 26?

I recommend that a light rifle be a rifle that one would have confidence in should they encounter a lion or buffalo while tracking something non-dangerous. The 338 RUM is good, but the extra 'bang' and weight are unnecessary in Africa where shots are 0-300, yea 0-400, and not 400-600. The 338 WinMag, 9.3x62, and 375Ruger make excellent light rifles that can be used stalking through the forest. The lesser calibers, 30 and below, are best used in the near vicinity of the vehicle or in non-dangerous game zones.

So in the scenario above (26, 36, 458), if you have a 458 as your buffalo gun, your second would be a 36. The 26 is a third, more-restricted-use rifle. I would even recommend a 243 for impala or 223 for spur-wing geese.

the reverse of the above is also true. One grabs their 458 to begin a buffalo track and stalk. Sometime later they 'bump' the buffalo off into the forest and at the same time see a herd of hartebeest across an mbuga about 300 yards away. They can only get 25 yards closer before walking out into the wide open mbuga. Your 350-400 grain bullets are in the vehicle. Your 450gn will drop well over a foot. "Sure wish I had my 338, with 210gn monometal at 2950fps, sighted in for 225 yards (or better 225gn/2825fps and still only 3.5" drop at 275 yards)." That is why many hunters walking around on foot prefer a 375 or a 416 loaded hot and flat. We all take calculated risks in optimizing our battery. Ideally, both rifles could cover for the other in unforeseen circumstances. If a person has more time, of course, no problem. We have all passed up on shots and just waited for a better opportunity.

PS: I have tended to hunt with my son most of the time and so we take off on a track together, carrying two rifles. We are then prepared for whatever, and most any kind of double battery would work well, including a 458+26 (neither of which we have but which would be excellent ). Our most common pair has been a 416 Rigby and 338WinMag but I'd like to have a 308 around for visiting grandkids.

416Tanzan,

OK, add a .16 to complete the safari battery: .16 (.177), .26 (.264), .36 (.366), .46 (.458)

Strap them all in the bakkie rack.
Pick two when dismounting and have a tracker carry the secondary stalking rifle.
He will earn a good tip if he behaves.

Forget any legality of caliber, the one I carry is the legal one, and an emergency is an emergency if the other is not legal.

Still sounds like the .458 is the one I will be carrying most of the time.

New nomenclature: .458 WIN+P
Needs to be a new SAAMI homologation.
Same as SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum except increased MAP (62,500 PSI instead of 60,000 PSI)
and increased maximum COL: 3.800" instead of 3.340".

Rip ...

Now about the buggaboo of bullet weight and sighting in a soft and a solid load:

Both same weight and same POI at 100 yards?

Or lighter soft at higher velocity and hope for a a useful POI with the heavier solid.
Maybe a soft that shoots high at 100 yards, but not too high,
and a solid that is dead-on at 50 yards ?
Sometimes it works out nicely.

Rip ...

Hey Bob;
Did u get a bear yet this spring ?
I've been searching but haven't found any mention yet.
Or did I miss it ?

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Hey Bob;
Did u get a bear yet this spring ?
I've been searching but haven't found any mention yet.
Or did I miss it ?

CTF;

Thanks for asking.

No I haven't shot a bear yet as the C-19 thing has interfered with that. Only two weeks are left for a spring hunt and I haven't been to the range which was only opened last Saturday. Hope to go on Monday to avoid a lineup. So will get a licence and plan for the late summer - fall hunt. Load will be the 300 TSX at around 2775 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

May the red gods smile upon you and may you "break a leg."
I am still researching my loads before embarking on a .458 WIN+P safari for all game on terra firma.
Forget the whaling.
And may I someday soon break a leg too, and make the red gods guffaw.

I'll try H4895 at 100% and work up to 110% again with the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN.
Then try that ladder with any 395-gr to 410-gr PCP-GC-hardcast bullets I can come up with,
and any 400-gr to 480-gr FN or HYDRO monometal or FMJ solids I can come up with.
If Barnes does not make the .458"/ 400-gr TSX available to handloaders,
then Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technology will convert some 500-gr TSX to 400-gr TSiX (TSimprovedX) bullets.

Rip ...

RIP;

Got home from the range 2.5 hrs ago, had lunch, and then analysis of results. Fired a few rounds from the .458 Ruger and many more from my CZ .22LR. Got there about 7:45 am and left at 10:45 am. Bright sunny morning with cool temps about 55*F.

First, I wanted to see whether the 350 TSX would hit in the same group as the 300 TSX since their respective MVs were quite close -- or so I thought.

The cases for the 300s were well used Remington and for the 350s they were new (not previously fired) Hornady.

Chrony @ 5 yards

Load no.1 was 75 grains H4198 for the 300s and WLRM primers. COL was 3.324" crimped into bottom groove. MV corrected avg. = 2768 fps/5103 ft-lbs

Load no.2 was 81 grains H4198 for the 350s and WLRM primers. COL was 3.44" crimped into bottom groove. MV corrected avg. = 2782 fps/6014 ft-lbs

##################

Load no.1 (2 shots) into 1" @ 50 yards, .75" over dead center. It would have been better had I warmed up in shooting the .22LR. I hadn't shot a rifle since last fall. That was the load for bear last year. Recoil was relatively mild at 37 ft-lbs including a -15% for Mag-na-ports. Rifle is 10.3 lbs with no extra ammo on the stock. With a total of five rounds in an ammo stock holder, recoil would have been reduced to 35 ft-lbs.

Load no.2 (2 shots) into .25" @ 50 yards, 3.25" over dead center. Basically a ragged hole. So, unfortunately, there was a 3" gap at 50 yds between the two loads. I haven't checked yet, but at +3.25 at 50 yds, it would be much, much more than that at 100. I'll check it and get back. Recoil was a stiff 50 ft-lbs.

The 465gr hardcast, loaded over 75 grains RL-22, WLRM primers and new Hornady brass wasn't too far off from my guess. I estimated 1550 fps and it made (3 shots) a corrected avg of 1583 fps/2587 ft-lbs. I aimed well above the target, and as best I could determine from a ragged hole below the target in the plywood, drop would have been at least 30" from the sight-in for the TSX loads! Recoil was a healthy push at 22 ft-lbs with the porting.

Obviously, if I decided to go with the cast load for September hunting, I'd have to do some serious adjustment on the Nikon.

Since it's already sighted for the 300 TSX, I might go with that but I do want to try some other loads as well.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

You have the right stuff for sure.
Great to see another +6000 ft-lbs .458 WIN+P load re-check.
I got 24 fps faster with a 25" (1" longer than yours) Shilen barrel of possibly a wee bit tighter groove diameter (.4585" instead of .4590" ?)
and no porting on mine, though with screw-on KDF muzzle brake.
Your 24" Ruger barrel with Magna-Porting loses little.

More than enough for any moose or any bear that walks the earth.
Your 350-grain TSX load has both foot-pounds to spare and fine accuracy in your rifle.
I like that load.

I am stuck on 400-grainers just now, will get back around to the 350-, 300-, and even 250-grainers later.
We are not even half way through THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Rip ...

While the USA descends into anarchy, largely due to the efforts of the U.S. Dimwitcratic Party, we adopt a new motto for THE MISSION:

NON ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

The enlightenment must continue in all spheres.

The latest "Barnes Reloading Manual Number 4" lists only 450-gr and 500-gr bulleted loads for the .458 Lott.
Hence, we continue to resort to "Number 3" for .458 WIN+P starting loads.



Looking at the old 350-gr XFB loads (above) in the .458 Lott, we can understand how the current 350-gr TSX-FB works so well in the .458 WIN+P.

In the .458 Lott with the 350-gr XFB crimped on the single cannelure as Barnes recommends,
the bullet projection is 0.700" for a COL of 3.490"" with prudently trimmed brass of 2.790" in the tight-throated chamber.
The 350-gr XFB has a length of 1.225".
Seating depth in the .458 Lott is 0.525".

The 350-grain TSX-FB in the .458 WIN+P:
Let brass grow to 2.500", that is the +P trim-to length,
since the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. has 0.020" of chambered-brass length allowance beyond SAAMI maximum brass length of 2.500",
unlike the less generous SAAMI .458 Lott chamber .
Crimp on third cannelure of the 350-gr TSX-FB which is 1.229" in length.
COL is 3.440".
Projection of bullet is 0.940"
Seating depth is 0.289".

There is a COL difference of 0.050" shorter with the .458 WIN+P and the 350-gr TSX-FB (3.440")
compared to the .458 Lott with 350-gr XFB (3.490").

With 82.0 grains of H4198, the .458 Lott gave 2732 fps in a 26" barrel.

Bob: With 81.0 grains of H4198, the .458 WIN+P gave 2782 fps in a 24", Magna-ported, Ruger barrel.
RIP: Same .458 WIN+P load in 25" Shilen barrel with add-on KDF brake gave 2806 fps.
Very consistent between two different rifles.
Sub-MOA in both rifles.
No pressure signs.
+6000 ft-lbs.
The .458 WIN+P gives higher velocity or lower pressure or both, compared to the SAAMI .458 Lott.
THROAT
THROAT
THROAT.

Bob's ambient temperature was 55*F, mine was 41*F.
H4198 "Extreme" has such good TBI that temperature difference is irrelevant here.

Rip ...

The .458 WIN+P is better than the SAAMI .458 Lott with monomometal copper "X" bullets as light as 350 grains !
The advantage of the .458 WIN+P over the SAAMI .458 Lott only increases as bullet weight increases above 350 grains.
That is the truth.
The Lottites may still take comfort in thinking that the SAAMI .458 Lott might be better with lightest bullets and birdshot loads.

If you think a SAAMI .458 Lott can beat a .458 WIN+P with 350-gr and heavier bullets,
you might be a Lottite.
Us rednecks in fly-over country know better.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Load no.2 was 81 grains H4198 for the 350s and WLRM primers. COL was 3.44" crimped into bottom groove. MV corrected avg. = 2782 fps/6014 ft-lbs

That is a potent load and accurate.

Good for everyhting from the smaller Eastern Grey kangaroo through to buffalo.

I have shot many a kangaroo and pig at long range with the old 300 grain Hornady round nose 375 at 2450, 68 grains 4064. so that 458 load would do for everything.

And the Sierra .458"/ 300-gr Pro Hunter HP disintegrates at muzzle exit when traveling at 2800 fps.
Not a recommended load for the .458 WIN+P.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Marcella gets serious:

Leupold 2.5x20mm in Low Burris XTac rings weighs 11 oz.
Scoped rifle with no ammo weighs: 8 lbs 5 oz.
Add 4 rounds of 500-gr-bulleted ammo: 8.75 pounds

A strip of glow tape running along the top of the barrel would be a dandy night sight.

Rip ...

How do those Leupold scopes hold up to the recoil? I have a little M8-4x in some Talleys on a Weatherby, but I haven't tried it yet.

Looking again at Bob's recent pre-bear-season trajectory checks of two TSX handloads which he has thoroughly worked up in past:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Load no.1 was 75 grains H4198 for the 300s and WLRM primers. COL was 3.324" crimped into bottom groove. MV corrected avg. = 2768 fps/5103 ft-lbs

Load no.2 was 81 grains H4198 for the 350s and WLRM primers. COL was 3.44" crimped into bottom groove. MV corrected avg. = 2782 fps/6014 ft-lb

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I followed Bob's lead on the 300-gr TSX-FB.
My favorite loads in the 25"-barreled Bobbarella Shilen-CZ at 72*F:
COL similar at 3.330", just .006" longer, still crimped on bottom cannelure.
F215 in Hornady brass, instead of Bob's WLRM in Remington brass.
H4198 78.0 grains >>> 2810 fps MV, sub-MOA for 3 shots
and
H4198 81.0 grains >>> 2867 fps MV, 3-shot group enlarged to 1.7 MOA, and diminishing returns per grain of powder.

I would be quite happy with the 78.0-gr charge of H4198 with the 300-gr TSX-FB, 3.330" COL, 2810 fps.
It gives almost identical velocity and accuracy as 81.0 grains H4198 did with the 350-grain TSX-FB, 3.440" COL, 2806 fps, in my rifle (Bobbarrella).
Recoil is reduced by lower bullet AND propellant weights.
A 300-grain TSX-FB does not vaporize at +2800 fps MV from a .458 WIN+P.

.458 Lott with 300-gr XFB in a 26" barrel, Barnes "Number 3":



BY YIMMINEY ! The .458 WIN+P beat the .458 Lott even with a stubby 300-grainer, using 4 grains less powder (81 instead of 85).
But I prefer the .458 WIN+P with 7 grains less powder (78 instead of 85),
so the .458 Lott has only a 39 fps advantage, and much greater recoil with almost 10% more powder burned in the .458 Lott.

Kind of seems like the .458 WIN+P wins again by TKO.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Joe from So. Cal.:
How do those Leupold scopes hold up to the recoil? I have a little M8-4x in some Talleys on a Weatherby, but I haven't tried it yet.

The Leupold 2.5x20mm may be the toughest scope known to man.
Mitch Carter used a fixed-power 6x36mm Leupold on his .577 Tyrannosaur.
It was "fixed" in more ways than one. He had the mounts soldered to the rifle and the scope never gave him problems.
Bugholes at 100 yards.
My imitation of Mitch is hoped to do as well as his more severe test.
Fixed 4X Leupold on a .460 Weatherby should do well.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Wildcatter:
To throw out an old adage, there is no free lunch in physics. All things being equal, you obtain equal results. In regard to the belted magnum case with a 0.458” bullet seated, the case being 2.500” or 2.800” in length, if you are only talking about SAAMI spec chambers and pressures that dictate use of FACTORY ammunition and FACTORY rifles with FACTORY throat lengths, then an argument about handloads is off-base. It’s like comparing apples to oranges to throw handloads into the mix. If you are talking about custom rifles with x, y, or z magazine length with a custom throat, and handloads where the shorter cartridge is loaded longer than the longer cartridge, then of course the shorter cased cartridge will likely produce higher velocity. Or if the shorter cased cartridge is loaded to a higher pressure, then it will achieve higher velocity. The part of the discussion that doesn’t make sense is when someone uses this logic and another comes in and changes one or more variable to make themselves correct. That is why the other thread went on so long.

Case in point. “I can load my 458 WM to higher power than you can load your 458 Lott”. In response, “No you can’t. You can load your 458 with its 25” barrel and 3.6” magazine to outdo my factory 22” barreled 458 Lott that I don’t handload for...”. You can see that the variables are the most important part of the discussion here.

Gone are the days when one’s impression of a cartridge and it’s factory rifle counterpart is based on its performance on game. In our modern age, we have more “data” than most of us know what to do with

OK. I’ll pop some popcorn and see if this thread achieves the same level of “greatness” the last one did.

I would suggest, again, that this boils the BS down to the CS. It’s good reading. Sadly, however, it doesn’t fit the narrative in these parts. Ah, well . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe from So. Cal.:
How do those Leupold scopes hold up to the recoil? I have a little M8-4x in some Talleys on a Weatherby, but I haven't tried it yet.

The Leupold 2.5x20mm may be the toughest scope known to man.
Mitch Carter used a fixed-power 6x36mm Leupold on his .577 Tyrannosaur.
It was "fixed" in more ways than one. He had the mounts soldered to the rifle and the scope never gave him problems.
Bugholes at 100 yards.
My imitation of Mitch is hoped to do as well as his more severe test.
Fixed 4X Leupold on a .460 Weatherby should do well.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Thanks for your reply. I probably should have mentioned those Talleys are Q.D. The scope isn’t real big so your words sound encouraging.

Well, if it isn't little Mikey "MR" Robinson come back to throw a Baby Ruth back in the swimming pool after it was already tossed out.
This allows more mileage for THE MISSION, rehashing old material.
It takes repetition sometimes, to get it to sink into some numb skulls,
especially those who are not handloaders.
My guess is that MR has zero accomplishments in handloading.
MR is desperate to discredit the .458 WIN+P so that the SAAMI .458 Lott is seen as superior.
Thus he cannot help coming back to toss the Baby Ruth.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Wildcatter:
To throw out an old adage, there is no free lunch in physics. All things being equal, you obtain equal results. In regard to the belted magnum case with a 0.458” bullet seated, the case being 2.500” or 2.800” in length, if you are only talking about SAAMI spec chambers and pressures that dictate use of FACTORY ammunition and FACTORY rifles with FACTORY throat lengths, then an argument about handloads is off-base.

Mr. Wildcatter was oblivious to the history of the .458 Lott wildcat rustled up by Jack, by rechambering a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum
to accept 2.8" brass with no barrel setback, thus retaining the terminal end of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat,
until SAAMI homologated with current short throat.
Likewise, he seemed oblivious to the SAAMI restriction of the .458 Winchester Magnum to 60,000 psi MAP
while allowing the .458 Lott a 62,500 psi MAP.

It’s like comparing apples to oranges to throw handloads into the mix.

Especially to a non-handloader like MR.

If you are talking about custom rifles with x, y, or z magazine length with a custom throat,

Absolutely no custom throating involved, strictly SAAMI for the .458 Winchester Magnum and .458 Lott.
Make use of whatever magazine length is available depending on performance level desired.
The SAAMI .458 Lott cannot be loaded as long as a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum in the longest magazine or single shot.
Remember that "no free lunch in physics" bugaboo ?


and handloads where the shorter cartridge is loaded longer than the longer cartridge, then of course the shorter cased cartridge will likely produce higher velocity.

This neglects throat effects on the velocities attained by whatever COL.

Or if the shorter cased cartridge is loaded to a higher pressure, then it will achieve higher velocity.

It is not necessary to load the .458 Winchester Magnum to higher pressure than the already higher pressure of the .458 Lott.

The part of the discussion that doesn’t make sense is when someone uses this logic and another comes in and changes one or more variable to make themselves correct. That is why the other thread went on so long.

Eventually Wildcatter was coached into the realization that he can use a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer
to fix the throat handicap of the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Case in point. “I can load my 458 WM to higher power than you can load your 458 Lott”.

Absolutely true if the .458 WM has a standard SAAMI throat and the .458 Lott has a standard SAAMI throat.

In response, “No you can’t. You can load your 458 with its 25” barrel and 3.6” magazine to outdo my factory 22” barreled 458 Lott that I don’t handload for...”.

Foul ball !
It may be tough to change a non-handloader to a handloader, for first, he must want to change.
The closed-minded do not want to change.
For the open-minded, make the barrels the same on both rifles. Make the COL the same. Make the pressure the same for both rifles.
The .458 WM beats the .458 Lott always.
Remember, there are no free lunches in physics.
You cannot neglect that throat does some of the cooking of the dish.

You can see that the variables are the most important part of the discussion here.

Yes, as manipulated unsuccessfully by Wildcatter.

Gone are the days when one’s impression of a cartridge and it’s factory rifle counterpart is based on its performance on game.

Wildcatter was crying on his baloney sandwich.

In our modern age, we have more “data” than most of us know what to do with

He speaks for himself.

OK. I’ll pop some popcorn and see if this thread achieves the same level of “greatness” the last one did.

So we see that MR has borrowed this Baby Ruth from the other thread to bring to this "great" swimming pool here.

I would suggest, again, that this boils the BS down to the CS. It’s good reading. Sadly, however, it doesn’t fit the narrative in these parts. Ah, well . . . .

Very strange that MR gets spanked each time he tosses a Baby Ruth and he is still at it.
He must like it, either the spanking or the supporting of THE MISSION.
Either way, buy a donkey, MR.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

More starting loads for the .458 WIN+P,
work up by using a COL of 3.6", or even greater if you dare.
With bullets as long as the 450-600-grainers,
it is a WIN-win situation:

Barnes "Number 4" starting loads for the .458 WIN+P,
use the 24"-barrel velocities for the .458 Lott as a guide for what to beat with a .458 WIN+P:

That's all for "Number 4" loads,
easy to beat with .458 WIN+P loads,
and the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets can be loaded as short as 3.58" COL to beat the above.
Just seat the below loads on existing cannelures to make both loads 3.580" COL:



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Also from the .458 Lott section of Barnes "Number 4":




No matter the rifle chambering, was the need for a more precisely placed first shot indicated by this tale ?

Six 450-gr TSX bullets, 3 recovered, 3 exited, 6 shots total !

The .458"/ 450-grain TSX-FB is superb.
Exit on broadside, stay in on more lengthwise shots in bison ?
Or were they all broadsides and toss a coin as to whether it will exit ?
From the wording of Stan Skinner, the latter seems more indicated.

Would the 400-gr TSX at higher velocity do the same ?

Finn Aagaard said the old .458"/ 400-gr X-bullet at about 2300 fps was as good or better for penetration and wound channel as any 500-gr soft of bi-metal construction.

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Poster boy for .458 WIN+P superiority:



Impact above 2500 fps is not recommended with the Woodleigh Weldcore .458"/ 400-gr Protected Point Soft Nose.
If MV is 2627 fps from the .458 WIN+P having 25" barrel at COL of 3.425",
with BC = 0.340 it is down to 2500 fps exactly at 50 yards.
Just an interesting bit of trivia.
Better have a tougher bullet for close range shots,
or load the bullet to maximum of 2500 fps.
That is very easy with COL of 3.395" in the .458 WIN+P.

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My two bits:

I shot my bison running and it dropped and hit the ground hard. One Kodiak 450 grain FMJ through the shoulders.
Rifle? A mini mag .458.
1886 45-90 with custom loaded Kodiak 450 grain FMJ at 2150 fps. Not very fast, BUT, very accurate.

crshelton,

You seem to be able to shoot straight.
450-grains at 2150 fps from a lever action is mighty stout.
sharpsguy bagged bison quite well with BPCR and 475 grains of FN hard lead at just under 1300 fps from a .45-70 Govt.
He shot well, placed his bullet well, and one bullet did the job.
At lower velocity, tissue resistance is less and the slow-poke works like a hardcast FN super-magnum handgun bullet, penetrates well,
up to bison size, maybe not quite suitable for whaling.

Speaking of bagging buffalo well,
apparently member Sarg was in on testing the HYDRO with steel nipple added onto it as an aid to penetration:



Steel is lighter (and stronger) than brass.
It would shift the CG rearward, make the bullet less stable.
Would a steel nose added on cause concentricity/accuracy issues ?
Would it penetrate heavy bone better due to less deformation on impact ?
Or would it be prone to separation on impact ?
Was it just too expensive to make ?

If this one works with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum ...



... but IF you have to trim your brass shorter to fit a 3.600" maximum COL with this bullet,
you might be a Lottite.

Here is the generic 500-grainer:



Odd to have a lower BC with the heavier/higher-SD bullet of same caliber and apparently very similar form factor.
But, that is what the Woodleigh manual says.
Maybe flatter lead tip on the 500-grainer?

480-gr FMJ Cat No: 25A ... Length 1.340", BC = .325 ... nose is hemispherical, rounded with no flat meplat
500-gr FMJ Cat No: 27 ... Length 1.388, BC = .310 ... rounded nose has a flattened meplat

That is what it looks like from a tiny picture in the manual.

Maybe the flattened meplats on the 500-grainers could explain why they are more effective on water buffalo,
a definite observation from Sarg.
That would apply to FMJ.
Even if both had same momentum at impact and 480-grainer had greater KE,
500-grainer would be more stable and carry on with that momentum better.

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