quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
One thing that is counter-intuitive is that the smaller cartridge (458 Win) would out-perform the larger cartridge (458 Lott). So what are the results if both cartridges are compared on "level playing fields": same pressures, optimum OAL and leade specs.

Ray B,

Do you have any distant relative that was born in the Oley Valley of Berks County, Pennsylvania on November 2, 1734?

Your question is not as easily answered as 416Tanzan's over-simplification.
To do your comparison of the .458 WIN to the .458 Lott,
i.e., to give them identical design parameters except COL and/or brass length
would require that one or both of them become wildcats.
One or two new wildcats?
Nice dilemna.

The .458 WIN is actually more akin to the .30-06 in many aspects of the design parameters,
and they have same SAAMI maximum COL (3.340"),
and little difference in maximum brass length, 2.500" and 2.494" respectively.
They both are commonly used in 3.4" magazine-box-length rifles,
and both are optimum for use of a broad range of bullet weights and nose lengths,
even if their 3.340" SAAMI COL is exceeded slightly by the handload,
though never allowed with factory loads.
The .458 WIN and .30-06 have identical service MAP: 60,000 psi by the modern pressure trancducer method.
The .458 WIN and .30-06 both have Leade-Only-Throats with zero PSFB (Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore).
The .458 WIN starts with a wide base diameter of leade (0.4690") at 0*29'30" semi-angle.
The .30-06 starts with a less-wide base diameter of leade (0.3106") at 0*22'00" semi-angle.
To "Cone-Up" the throat of the .30-06 to make it exactly analogous to the .458 WIN throat,
just widen the base of the .30-06 leade to 0.3154" and make the semi-angle of leade 0*29'30".


Likewise, the .458 Lott has more similarities to the .308 WCF in a comparison of the .30 to .45 bore pairs,
all except for the COL and case length analogy:
.458 Lott: 3.600"/2.800" maximums
.308 WCF: 2.810"/2.015" maximums
Here we see that the .458 Lott is too long and the .308 WCF is too short.
That is a similarity.
They are both given the wrong lengths to make best use of available bullets in the rifles they are commonly used in,
3.6" and 3.0" magazine box lengths respectively.
Both are misfits.
Most egregiously, the .458 Lott brass was made 0.3" longer than that of the .458 WIN,
but the .458 Lott was housed in a magazine only 0.2" longer than that of the .458 WIN.
The .308 WCF has a short length of PSFB followed by a leade of 1*45'00".
The .458 Lott has a short length of PSFB followed by a leade of 2*00'00".
The .308 WCF has a service MAP of 62,000 psi.
The .458 Lott has a service MAP of 62,500 psi.

Remember that both .30-06 and .458 WIN are throttled back to 60,000 psi in factory loads.
With modern rifles and brass there is no reason not to load them to same, higher pressure as the .458 Lott.
The .308 WCF already has a headstart at 62,000 psi, but it too can go a little extra in the proper rifle.

It is just the easiest thing of all to compare the .458 WIN to the .458 Lott by chambering them both in Winchester M70 rifles of .375 H&H length.
Use the SAAMI chambers for each.
Load them to the same COL.
Load them to the same pressure.
Go to maximum loads at 62,500 psi for each.
The .458 WIN MV will be greater and will require a little more powder to get there.
But are we not men?
Can we not handle the .458 WIN unchained?
Do we not prefer the more manly, more versatile capabilities of the .458 WIN?
Just back it off to .458 Lott, or even .45-70 Govt. levels for practice, plinking, squirrels and such.

Rip ...

I refuse to try to improve on the .458 WIN with another wildcat.
The optimum is the .458 WIN.
Those stuck with .458 Lott rifles can just trim their brass shorter as needed for any specific bullet that needs to be fit into the magazine box of their rifle,
whether that is a 3.6" box or a 3.8" box.

We .458 WIN Aficionados can use 3.4", 3.6", and 3.8" magazine boxes with the 2.5" brass.
A .458 Lott using 2.8" brass in a rifle with a 3.4"-long magazine box is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Use it as a single-shot or trim that brass down to fit.

Rip ...

A. 1 caliber length is simply a guide

B. You can use a factory style crimping die and the location of the cannelure groove becomes irrelevant

C. Don't use old style bullets

Alf,

Thanks for your contrbution to THE MISSION.
What Mike Dettorre said.
We like to fill the case full of powder under the bullet also,
and lock the bullet in place with the Lee Factory crimp die.
We make our own cannelures if the proper one does not exist.

Mike,

Thanks.

Rip ...

RIP,
Thanks for the 400 grain GSC info.

quote:

. . .
Those stuck with .458 Lott rifles can just trim their brass shorter as needed for any specific bullet that needs to be fit into the magazine box of their rifle,
whether that is a 3.6" box or a 3.8" box.

We .458 WIN Aficionados can use 3.4", 3.6", and 3.8" magazine boxes with the 2.5" brass.
A .458 Lott using 2.8" brass in a rifle with a 3.4"-long magazine box is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Use it as a single-shot or trim that brass down to fit.

Rip ...

RIP, I detect a logical non-sequitur in this advice to 458Lott owners.
Peeling back the brass, trimming the case, does not change the COL or powder capacity for the Lott cartridge.
If a person has a Lott, then shoot it as is. If a Winnie owner finds a way to be similar to the Lott, fine. Bravo for the Winnie users. But the Lott simply remains a Lott, even with factory ammo.

I'm thinking of applying the Creedmore/458 advice to a 308 in a Kimber Hunter.

The Kimber Hunter short action 84M is also chambered for a 257Roberts. (Nice to see the old round in a modern rifle.) And to the point: the Roberts case is about .22" longer than a 308Win. I am hoping that the magazine may allow one to seat TTSX bullets out an extra .1" inch with a crimp on the second Barnes grooves. The should end up with a 2.9" COL and more importantly, the extra grain or so of powder could add 50-60fps in comparison to what a grain of powder does in that small cartridge. If so, the 308 would be almost a half-step toward a 30-06 and in the little lightweight Kimber package.

Of course, the SAAMI COL of the 257Roberts is only 2.78", but many handloaders routinely load the Roberts to +P loads in modern rifles and I am hoping that Kimber has included a little extra space in the magazines without advertizing this. I won't see one until mid-November.

Any thoughts?


PS: Yes, I'll cross post in Reloading, since this is not a .458 issue.
PPS: the point is to maximize the lightest affordable platform for a guest/grandkid rifle in Africa. Some less-than-max loads would also be tested and provided for the kids.

416 Tarazan,

Just use CFE223 as your powder and you will pick up 50-60 fps

Mike,

I appreciate the advice.

1) I might get another 50-60fps with CFE223 if long-seating the bullet.
2) Currently, I am planning on using Varget because of the temperature stability. Yes, CFE223 looks great, is great, but it needs temperature monitoring and sight-ins and I have my doubts on reliability of shots over 200 yards comparing 6:30am cold shots at 60F and 12 or 3:00pm shots at 110F barrel temp. I guess that would be a third "PPPS".

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
RIP,
Thanks for the 400 grain GSC info.

Welcome,

Use the GSC bullets sparingly on paper,
use the GSC bullets freely on game.
If you work up a load with other 400-grainer or 450-grainer ...

Barnes Buster 400-gr
Barnes Original SSSP 400-gr
Speer FNSP 400-grain
Swift A-frame 400-gr & 450-gr
North Fork and CEB 400-gr & 450-grainers, etc.

... Keep it within SAAMI specs, COL 3.340" or less, and start with 73.0 grains of AA-2230.
Work up to max load.

Then you can feel comfortable starting with that maximal load (for chosen bullet weight) and the GSC HV bullet of same weight (either 400-grain or 450-grain) loaded at 3.372" to 3.450" COL,
your choice.
Use a Lee Factory Crimp die and crimp between the bands.
You might find a good load with your first 3-shot group.

I would use the speer 400-grainer FNSP to work up the 400-grain GSC HV 400-grain starting load.
Then go huntin'.

I also have lots of North Fork 450-grainers that will be surrogates for 450-grain GSC HV load work up.
Or they may be my go-to 450-grain solid for close-range backing up of the high-flyin' GSC HV 400-grainer.
The only way to improve on the North Fork 450-grain FPS as a solid (in any .458-cal rifle),
might be to use the harder CEB brass solid.
But I would only worry about that if MV is over 2700 fps in a 460 Wby, etc.

BTW, recall that the Barnes Original SSSP in the .458 WIN was pressure tested by Western Powders Co. with AA-2230:
24" barrel
F215 primer
WIN brass case, 2.490" trim
COL 3.140"
AA-2230:
80.0 grains >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 psi

That is why I like to load them longer and add more powder, easily getting over 2500 fps,
but never reaching the elusive high pressure level of the redfaced, SAAMI .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

. . .
Those stuck with .458 Lott rifles can just trim their brass shorter as needed for any specific bullet that needs to be fit into the magazine box of their rifle,
whether that is a 3.6" box or a 3.8" box.

We .458 WIN Aficionados can use 3.4", 3.6", and 3.8" magazine boxes with the 2.5" brass.
A .458 Lott using 2.8" brass in a rifle with a 3.4"-long magazine box is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Use it as a single-shot or trim that brass down to fit.

Rip ...

RIP, I detect a logical non-sequitur in this advice to 458Lott owners.
Peeling back the brass, trimming the case, does not change the COL or powder capacity for the Lott cartridge.
If a person has a Lott, then shoot it as is. If a Winnie owner finds a way to be similar to the Lott, fine. Bravo for the Winnie users. But the Lott simply remains a Lott, even with factory ammo.

416Tanzan,

Thanks for the reply.
Not illogical at all.
It is necessary to shorten the .458 Lott brass if you wish to make use of existing cannelures on some bullets,
to stay within the confines of a 3.6" magazine box best functioning.

Hornady had to redesign their 500-grain bullets to make the noses 0.1" shorter, so they could be used in the .458 Lott.
And even with that, Hornady .458 Lott brass in loaded ammo is only 2.775" long.
They shorten the .458 Lott brass at the Hornady factory.
BTW, I just found out, from a Lake City Arsenal employee,
that Lake City loads some of the Hornady and Federal ammo, along with all the military contracts.

Furthermore,
unless you shorten the .458 Lott brass, you cannot make full use of the existing cannelures
on the 500-grain Barnes TSX bullet,
to load it as long as can be loaded with the .458 WIN in a CZ 550 Magnum magazine box, etc., etc. ...

Intuition is not logic.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

RIP, I detect a logical non-sequitur in this advice to 458Lott owners.

Intuition is not logic.

Rip ...

To intuit something, with some people is the process where the mind processes facts logically but gets to a conclusion without a noticeable linear series of steps. so it is intuitively logical that since the case capacity of the Lott is greater than the Win Mag, that the potential energy measured in a combination of bullet mass and velocity would be greater. and as noted in several posts above, a conclusion can be supported that this is true. The problem enters by the door of "other conditions". Unless using a single shot rifle that has the barrel modified for longer OAL, both cartridges are subject to the limitations of magazine box length and chamber configurations, as well as how those limitations affect cartridge OAL due to cannelure location and bullet shape. In the process of moving from the potential performance to performance within the limitations, the shorter cartridge can more closely approach its potential because it faces less limitations than the longer cartridge.


the result is: even though the Lott has a greater powder capacity than the WinMag, because it is limited by magazine and chamber configurations its performance is limited to the point that there is little or no advantage.

So what are the thoughts of those more experienced with the WinMag-Lott cartridges- are these conclusions correct, partially correct or way out in left field?

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
... the result is: even though the Lott has a greater powder capacity than the WinMag, because it is limited by magazine and chamber configurations its performance is limited to the point that there is little or no advantage.

Ray B,

That is a pearl of wisdom. You just caught the pop fly to center field.

If the SAAMI .458 WIN and the SAAMI .458 Lott are the chamberings for otherwise identical rifles,
the .458 Lott can only have an advantage with the short and light bullets.
Those are too short for the .458 WIN to take advantage of long COL loading to match or exceed the .458 Lott in either a 3.6" or 3.8" magazine length.
But 2700 fps with 300-grain TTSX or 2500 fps with 400-grain HV seem perfect to me, and accurate too, in the .458 WIN.

Make the bullets long and heavy enough, and the coned-up throat advantage takes over, so the .458 WIN is the winner, in either 3.6" or 3.8" magazine.

Jack Lott's original reamer was used on .458 WIN chambers leaving the residual .458 WIN throat on the chamber for 2.8" brass.
That is what made the early .458 Lott shine.

Initial CIP homologation of the .458 Lott added a complete .458 WIN throat atop the 2.8" chamber.
That was impossible to fully take advantage of by longer COL loading in a magazine rifle.
Subsequently CIP changed to agree with the initial SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott in 2002,
which is the current, shorter, tighter throating of the .458 Lott.

This is the SAAMI .458 Lott that is loaded to 62,500 psi to get a 500-grainer of 3.6" maximum COL up to 2250 fps in a 24" barrel.

The SAAMI .458 WIN is loaded to 60,000 psi to get the same 500-grainer of 3.340" maximum COL up to 2200 fps in a 24" barrel.

In a 3.4" magazine box length for the .458 WIN with 24" barrel,
this linear relationship of bullet weight to velocity is easily attained:
300-grainer at 2700 fps
400-grainer at 2450 fps
500-grainer at 2200 fps

You can go even faster with longer COL when possible.
You can also go faster by loading the .458 WIN to higher pressure than 60,000 psi, when possible,
right on up to 62,500 psi like the .458 Lott.
Some times you can do both, and easily WIN, with higher velocity or lower pressure, or both, versus the .458 Lott.


Rip ...

quote:

Hornady had to redesign their 500-grain bullets to make the noses 0.1" shorter, so they could be used in the .458 Lott.
And even with that, Hornady .458 Lott brass in loaded ammo is only 2.775" long.

Point being: they did not shorten the brass to 2.49". Cutting away more brass would not have helped once the bullet was fixed at a certain spot. That was the logic that I referred to.

Any shortening of .458 Lott brass by 0.3"
is suggested as a joke.
I guess some people have the sense of humor of a Vulcan ET.
Come to think of it, it would produce a "compound throat"
with a first stage of parallel-sided-free-bore
that was 0.300" long and 0.483" wide
then abruptly tapered down into the standard SAAMI PSFB of the Lott.
Hey!
That would be like shooting .458 WIN ammo in a .458 Lott.
Only in a pinch is that not funny.

A two-stage throat on a rifle chamber is not rocket science.

Rip ...

Pilgrim's progress:

Turns out my .458 WIN CZ 550 that got re-chambered to .458 Lott was screwed up at the factory.
Rusty McGee recalled that he had simply hand reamed it on the action, since I approved this, when the barrel would not come off without a relief cut.
Well, now that .458 Lott barrel has finally come off, a relief cut was required.
Lo and behold, the first bit of the front of the receiver had been counter bored, and empty space filled with something that looked like J-B Weld.
Rusty says he can fix it, face off a bit of the action front and turn a square shoulder on the .458 WIN barrel, setting it back a thread or two,
whatever is required to true it up and get the sights timed correctly.
I trust that Rusty has the technology and ability to do it right.
The screwed-wrong-way CZ .458 Lott will become a screwed-right-way CZ .458 WIN.
What remains of the take-off .458 Lott barrel should be entertaining.
Another .458 Lott is gone, another .458 WIN replaces it.
Doing good has no end.

Rip ...

With the comparison of the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott fairly well discussed, and since I don't have a Lott, but do have a 404 Jeffery, I'm wondering how those two (the 458 Win Mag and the 404 Jeffery) compare. Initially I see the main difference is the availability and variety of bullets, the 458 has bullets from 300 to 600 grains and from quite cheap to super premium while the 404 is limited to 350 to 450, though there may be some 500s available; but all of the 404 bullets are at least not cheap and upwards in price. this feature results in the availability for practice and reduced loads in the 458.


the 404 bullet diameter is .423" while bullets designed for loading in the 44-40 are .427". I obtained some cast 44-40 bullets from Oregon Trail bullets, sized them down to .423" and they work well for practice but since they are only 200 grains they don't give a lot of similarity with the jacketed bullets.


Thoughts??

You know, Ray, you might have gotten me excited about plinking with 44-40 bullets in a 404 Jeffery, a couple of years ago.
But, now I want not, since there are so many .458-cal bullets of all weights, 300 grains to 600 grains, as you say.

I am having recurring thoughts of getting a .452-caliber mould to make slick-sided 600-grain, soft lead bullets,
and paper-patch them up to .459" to .460" diameter ...
I am going to go sleep it off now.

Rip ...

Speaking of paper patches, I met an old mate at the range who was shooting his .577/.450 Martini Henry, the other day. He said he'd found that cigarette ricepapers make the best patches. They are so thin the bullet only needs to be one or two thou smaller than the groove.

Just tryin' to keep up the thread count ...

In days gone by aka before Marijuana was half legal, kids would get in trouble if they were found having ZigZag papers. If only we had known we could have said they were to patch bullets for our Sharps!!

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Speaking of paper patches, I met an old mate at the range who was shooting his .577/.450 Martini Henry, the other day. He said he'd found that cigarette ricepapers make the best patches. They are so thin the bullet only needs to be one or two thou smaller than the groove.

Just tryin' to keep up the thread count ...

This is interesting
Gives new meaning to rolling a fat blunt and flying high

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
With the comparison of the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott fairly well discussed, and since I don't have a Lott, but do have a 404 Jeffery, I'm wondering how those two (the 458 Win Mag and the 404 Jeffery) compare. Initially I see the main difference is the availability and variety of bullets, the 458 has bullets from 300 to 600 grains and from quite cheap to super premium while the 404 is limited to 350 to 450, though there may be some 500s available; but all of the 404 bullets are at least not cheap and upwards in price. this feature results in the availability for practice and reduced loads in the 458.


the 404 bullet diameter is .423" while bullets designed for loading in the 44-40 are .427". I obtained some cast 44-40 bullets from Oregon Trail bullets, sized them down to .423" and they work well for practice but since they are only 200 grains they don't give a lot of similarity with the jacketed bullets.


Thoughts??

I assume you don't cast your own ? If you don't there are alternatives.

Use cast bullets designed for the 405 Win that have not been lubed. These should be around 0.413-0.414" in diameter. Prepare a "stick on patch" out of sticky labels. You'll need to fiddle with size to come up with a piece that goes around the bullet twice. I like to trim the labels so that they just fold over the base and be able to tuck the leading edge into the cannelure.

This adds approx 0.010" to the diameter. Place the sticky label bullets in your window sill to set the glue off. In a few days you will have your 404 practice bullets.

You could do the same for jacketed 405 bullets but they're generally 0.411-0.412".

The process is fiddly but it does work. You will need to flare the neck so as not to damage the patch when seating the bullet.

You'll be able to launch these pills well over 2000 fps with accuracy being the limiting factor. I've done this with 338 cast pills in a 348 Win and was able to achieve over 2400 fps with good accuracy.

Thanks to all for support of THE MISSION.
Reminds me of the 40-90 Sharps Bottle Necked that I forgot to make paper-patched bullets for.

Just to bring it back to .458 WIN, I have a suggestion for all heart-broken owners of .458 Lott rifles.
If it is a Ruger No.1 .458 Lott, a .450 NE 3-1/4" will clean it up nicely.
If it is a bolt action, you are going to have to set the barrel back by 0.3" and then run a SAAMI .458 WIN reamer into it.
This will greatly improve the rifle.

I am extremely happy to be turning my CZ .458 Lott back into a .458 WIN by a barrel switch.
It is truly misguided to rechamber a .458 WIN to .458 Lott, unless you want to use the .458 Lott only for light and short bullets.
I think I will keep the CZ .458 WIN slowed down to 2250 fps MV with the 500-grain TSX bullet that is 1.650" long.
At 3.780" COL in the .458 WIN, it is a bugholer,
and perfect with the rearmost cannelure on the bullet.
No .458 Lott with 3.6" box length can get near this, with that length and weight of bullet.
No .458 Lott with 3.8" box, like on the CZ, can be loaded to this length,
due to excessive length of brass interacting with cannelure locations on the bullet.

Rip ...

Hate to be gainsayer, RIP, but if you are in Africa and run out of ammo, a 458 Lott can use 458WM cartridges. I'm not sure it works the other way

quote:

If it is a bolt action, you are going to have to set the barrel back by 0.3" and then run a SAAMI .458 WIN reamer into it.
This will greatly improve the rifle.

Really? Greatly improve?
I think that the Lott was get the job done as is, but where special Winnie loads are developed in other rifles the Lott will just burn extra powder "for nothing."

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Hate to be gainsayer, RIP, but if you are in Africa and run out of ammo, a 458 Lott can use 458WM cartridges. I'm not sure it works the other way

I Wonder how frequent this happens.
Just bring a nail file with the appropriate length marker and after a few min of filing, voila! A long loaded 458 Win!

Might have to make some kind of "In the bush" 458 Win conversion kit

For a fairly high use practical bush heavy rifle . Something that can shoot almost anything is real handy to have For a workin man or women.
So my vote is chamber for the Watts with a Win Mag throat and leade. But stamp the barrel 458 Winchester Magnum to thumb the nose at the pinky finger Lott crowd.

In spite of everything RIP has posted for a 45 calibre my choice would be the 460 Wby/450 Dakota/450 Rigby and the 460 G&A or 458 RUM.

Probably be 460 or 450 Rigby. Would not want to fuck about with 404 bass or neck up 375 RUMs. 416 to 458 a much better necking up deal.

For an H&H based 45 my choice would be 450 Ackley then 458 Lott.

In my opinion a flaw in many of Ron's postings is it really assumes a keen reloader and keen gun nut.

The question of the .458" bullet isn't so much which case is preferred, rather it is what bullet weight and velocity is desired. Everything is a matter of costs and benefits. the Rigby/Weatherby cases necked to .458 have sufficient powder capacity to generate significantly more velocity than the standard magnum cases, but a preponderance of shooters find the recoil of such cartridges to be unacceptable. the question becomes one of just what weight and velocity is needed to "do the job". For years the various British cartridges in use in Africa were the benchmark for performance and it was this benchmark that Winchester sought to reach when they developed the 458 Win Mag. Winchester's endeavor was successful as the 458 became the standard rifle for several agencies in Africa and in just a few years had replaced virtually all of the rifles issued for use on large game.


If I were going into a situation where I considered the .458 Win Mag insufficient for the task at hand I would not be seeking to increase the bullets velocity by increasing the case size, rather, I would be looking to increase the bore diameter and bullet weight, something along the line of a .500 would be the next step.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
The question of the .458" bullet isn't so much which case is preferred, rather it is what bullet weight and velocity is desired. Everything is a matter of costs and benefits. the Rigby/Weatherby cases necked to .458 have sufficient powder capacity to generate significantly more velocity than the standard magnum cases, but a preponderance of shooters find the recoil of such cartridges to be unacceptable. the question becomes one of just what weight and velocity is needed to "do the job". For years the various British cartridges in use in Africa were the benchmark for performance and it was this benchmark that Winchester sought to reach when they developed the 458 Win Mag. Winchester's endeavor was successful as the 458 became the standard rifle for several agencies in Africa and in just a few years had replaced virtually all of the rifles issued for use on large game.


If I were going into a situation where I considered the .458 Win Mag insufficient for the task at hand I would not be seeking to increase the bullets velocity by increasing the case size, rather, I would be looking to increase the bore diameter and bullet weight, something along the line of a .500 would be the next step.

A reduced load I had in the 460 was 85 grains 4064 and 500 grain Hornady. Right on 2000 f/s and would shoot a reliable inch at 100 yards.

450 Ackley and 460 together and with 460 loaded to 2350 f/s for me had the feeling of the 460 was like a big V8 manual and the 450 Ackley like a small engine manual revving it guts out.

One thing I did find was the 460 loaded back to both 450 Ackley and 458 Win (both using top loads/ was easier on scopes.

One area where I would prefer a 450 Rigby (and I am making an assumption here) is the very long freebore of both the 378 and 460 places limits on reduced loads. You can load the 460 back to 458 Win and the 378 back to H&H but to go lower you are into shotgun type powder or hangfires are the order of the day. If can seat the bullet on the rifling that changes things. Although one load I had with 400 grain Speer was 28 grains of HiScor 700X for right on 1300 and very accurate.

I think you blokes in America have a powder, is it Accurate Arms???, that is about 4227 burn rate but bulky.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:


If I were going into a situation where I considered the .458 Win Mag insufficient for the task at hand I would not be seeking to increase the bullets velocity by increasing the case size, rather, I would be looking to increase the bore diameter and bullet weight, something along the line of a .500 would be the next step.

I don't think too many people would shoot enough big stuff for there to be a meaningful difference. The late Allen Day once posted that he had a 458 where the rifle stuffed up and he shot two buffalo with Failsafe bullets in 300 Winchester and they were his two quickest kills. Obviously if you shot a heap animals ten 375 would show up better and 45 better again and 50 better again.

However, the big 45s are much better in trajectory and a lot better to play around with. You can do lots with about any powder that will burn.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
In spite of everything RIP has posted for a 45 calibre my choice would be the 460 Wby/450 Dakota/450 Rigby and the 460 G&A or 458 RUM.

Probably be 460 or 450 Rigby. Would not want to fuck about with 404 bass or neck up 375 RUMs. 416 to 458 a much better necking up deal.

For an H&H based 45 my choice would be 450 Ackley then 458 Lott.

In my opinion a flaw in many of Ron's postings is it really assumes a keen reloader and keen gun nut.

Yes, if wanting a .458, first preference would be a 450 Rigby or equivalent. And if the 458 seemed too small, then there is always a 500.

However, this thread has formed and developed as RIP and others were thinking about a more sustainable, all-around hunting round than a super-mag 458 or a 500. As mentioned many a time in these pages, a person might want to consider a 458Win with a 400gnHV going 2400-2500, as a more comfortable and sustainable all-around hunting rifle. Meself---when I downsize I am thinking a 416 Ruger with a 330gnHV at 2600fps, and other loads. And for all I know, there is always the 375 Ruger if bones and muscles get too stiff. We'll see in 10-15 years, Lord willing.

Great work men, for THE MISSION.

Of course we must all be keen handloaders
to use any of the cartridges suggested.
My second big bore in 1984 was a 460 WBY Mk V.
My second 460 WBY was a BBK-02 with a McGowen barrel.
My safe queen .450 Dakota is exactly like a 460 WBY with the belt turned off, standard shoulder (26-degree) and a shorter throat.
The .450 Dakota came before the .450 Rigby Rimless which I prefer not.
I do like my .458/.338 Lapua Thumper on a CZ 550 Magnum.
I play with a .450 Barnes Supreme, which is like the Ackley,
but which of those came first?
I keep only one .458 Lott, for use with 300 to 400-grain bullets, an ugly 8.0-pound Mk X Mauser, a rechambered .458 WIN.
A Ruger No.1 .458 Lott cleaned up nicely to .450 NE "Thin Rim."
A CZ 550 Magnum .458 Lott is being converted back to .458 WIN, I am proud to say I am able to undo that mistake.
One forlorn Mk X .458 WIN had to be converted to .458/.416 Ruger. That was a salvage job and no improvement.

I report the above to show I have tried many others,
I tried to deny the .458 WIN,
I have come back to the truth.
Yes, for the keen handloader, the .458 WIN beats them all
for overall, all around utility.
So, if you are not a handloader capable of outdoing the .458 Lott with your .458 WIN,
and you go with a .458 Lott, and you lose your ammo in the bush,
you are very unlikely to find .458 Lott ammo in the bush,
or anything else but .458 WIN.
The .458 WIN is tops.

RIP ...

Mike,

You were thinking AA-5744?
Yes it works great for reduced loads
in the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

What happens when you put a 458 Win throat on a 458 Lott?

Has anyone on here tried SR4759, TrailBoss or the similar V powder for reduced loads in the 458 Win Mag? If so, please save me the trouble of re-inventing the loads.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mike,

You were thinking AA-5744?
Yes it works great for reduced loads
in the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

Thanks Ron.

I thought the 460 would add some velocity and range to the thread

If you can seat a bullet into the rifling you will be amazed how low down you can go with rifle powders like 3031 and similar. but forget ball powder.

458 Win Mag Westley Richards double
Anyone got $70,000?
Might have to sell a few organs.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101091018

Think of all the hunting someone could do with $70,000 and an over-the-counter 416 Ruger or 458 WM?

Once the gun is in hand, then here is what some 400gnHV bullets can do in .458":

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galfg458.html