quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


Not on the 458win stuff of which I know little beside owning a 458 Lott I want to get rid off.

But the sun is setting on the whole dg African hunting scene. Give it 10-20 years. Most African hunters don’t pass away on safari. Hunting stops earlier. Just seeing the age of crowd at sci should give an indication.

Mike

I reckon the percentage of 375 and up that are bought with the intention of going to Africa, Alaska or Northern Territory in Australia is very small.

In fact in 2000 when AR went to Bulletin Board format a bloke called Mitch Carter asked Saeed to start a Big Bores forum. All and anything on big bores was posted on the African Forum. The Big Bores forum was started for blokes who like big bores but Africa etc. is not on their menu.

Having said that I do agree with Alf on the 458 Winchester. Heaps of them in Australia but all older guns. Newer stuff is all 458 Lott.

I reckon if only 5% of the 375 H&H, 375 Ruger, 378 Wby, 416 Remington, 416 Rigby, 458 Win, 458 Lott, 450 Ackley, 460 Wby, 500 A2 and 500 Jeffery in Australia were used in the Northern Territory the buffalo would be extinct.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:


Not on the 458win stuff of which I know little beside owning a 458 Lott I want to get rid off.

But the sun is setting on the whole dg African hunting scene. Give it 10-20 years. Most African hunters don’t pass away on safari. Hunting stops earlier. Just seeing the age of crowd at sci should give an indication.

Mike

I reckon the percentage of 375 and up that are bought with the intention of going to Africa, Alaska or Northern Territory in Australia is very small.

In fact in 2000 when AR went to Bulletin Board format a bloke called Mitch Carter asked Saeed to start a Big Bores forum. All and anything on big bores was posted on the African Forum. The Big Bores forum was started for blokes who like big bores but Africa etc. is not on their menu.

Having said that I do agree with Alf on the 458 Winchester. Heaps of them in Australia but all older guns. Newer stuff is all 458 Lott.

I reckon if only 5% of the 375 H&H, 375 Ruger, 378 Wby, 416 Remington, 416 Rigby, 458 Win, 458 Lott, 450 Ackley, 460 Wby, 500 A2 and 500 Jeffery in Australia were used in the Northern Territory the buffalo would be extinct.

I agree with you

I have a 375 cz ahr that I have done most of my hunting with.

I have 4 375 ruger - only hunted with 2 and only 1 was a real hunt. The other was a impala.

A 375 h&h blaser barrel with one impala.

458 Lott for show
450-400 double for show
9.2x62 for show

Majority of big bores are discretionary builds for the sake of building or owning at big bore.

Mike

crshelton,

Yes Sir ! McGowen Good !

Rip ...

That is me above on Alf's left (right of Alf to viewer), smiling about Alf's spilt beans,
glad that he spilled them on himself.
That is shootaway on the other side of Alf, doing what only shootaway knows the meaning or purpose of ... hand signals to amuse himself?

I, and a few good men, can handle the truth.
We laugh at the truth.

Rip ...

OK, WINTER IS COMING. Grab your piece.



Assume 24" barrels for above ballistics.
If you cannot buy the rifle at Walmart, then get one built by your local smith.
Going forward, which of the two rifles shooting the ammo above will be more practical?
Most useful for the average geezer?
Think survival tech too.
Efficient, home-made cast bullets which kill game at geezer-tolerable velocities, etc.
Which can be most easily built into a geezer-portable and geezer-shootable piece?

Rip ...

Only morons choose the .458 Lott when they can have a .458 WIN-V.
So I am a politician like Donald Trump is a politician.
Mitch Carter loaded that .577 T.rex dummy above, gave it to me as my diploma from the Mitch Carter School in 2001.
I sure am glad I did not buy his rifle.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
OK, WINTER IS COMING. Grab your piece.



Assume 24" barrels for above ballistics.
If you cannot buy the rifle at Walmart, then get one built by your local smith.
Going forward, which of the two rifles shooting the ammo above will be more practical?
Most useful for the average geezer?
Think survival tech too.
Efficient, home-made cast bullets which kill game at geezer-tolerable velocities, etc.
Which can be most easily built into a geezer-portable and geezer-shootable piece?

Rip ...

Hmm, "whiskey and rye". Never understood that. Whiskey IS rye. So I guess they were drinking "corn", that is, bourbon and rye whiskey. Don't get me wrong. I like Jack. We call it 'butter' around our home. And Laphroaig is 'smoke'

Meanwhile, back to rifles and the saga of old geezers wanting a rifle to shoot a buffalo with. Those rounds are a tough choice.
The 250gn is just too light, but it would be a great, easy shooting load. Maybe a little heavy for my 105 lb. wife. However, for buffalo the middle round would need to be chosen. But I like the 5000 ftlbs. of the top load. I guess I would probably go with a 330 grain at 2600fps for 4950 ftlbs. What do you know? I can still buy an off the shelf gun that will do that ! ! !
But it is the 416 Ruger Think of it as a 458 for geezers.

Here is a Buchanan hunts video with the hunter test firing a 416 Ruger with solids at 3:20-3:50 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u0O0z8VEHw&t=341s
They are hunting dik-dik. 13:00 min for that, then mountain reedbuck with a different rifle, probably a smaller caliber using expanding rounds.

PS: My wife doesn't plan to shoot a buffalo, but if she did she would probably use her 375 Ruger.

However, just surmising, IF I had a 416 Ruger here in TZ, I might find a load where she could shoot a 330gn at 2300-2450fps for 3900-4400 ftlbs. Call it a geezeress load.

But she should probably just have at it with her 200gn .375" GSC at 3115fps and 4300 ftlb, 32 ft# recoil. Ka-boom.
Or maybe her 250gn TTSX at 2840fps, 4480ftlb, and her just tolerable 40 ft# recoil.

PPS:
Nice little interview with Don McLean on American Pie and Chevy to the levee . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U2AwooLEBA

Speaking of smoke and smokeless shots...
Ever have Laphroaig 10 year cask strength? It is a religious experience! A must have experience sometime in your life. Laguvalin 16 is another must as well.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Speaking of smoke and smokeless shots...
Ever have Laphroaig 10 year cask strength? It is a religious experience! A must have experience sometime in your life. Laguvalin 16 is another must as well.

Yes, Boomy,
Laphroaig cask strength (57% IIRC) is one of my favorites.
And yes, yes, Lagavulin 16 is absolutely great when one is ready to part with extra cash.

This is primarily for ALF and any others who sing his songs:

My website has been very busy over the past month or so. And I've talked a lot about the .458 Win Mag. in that time.

I don't think you're paying attention ALF... A couple of months ago you were singing the same song that no .458 Win Mags were available in Canada. Almost, before that tune was over, several members here (including myself) pointed out that TRADE-X in our province had about 8 in stock. By the time that information was over, they only had one left! I said that you shouldn't worry because they'll shortly have another batch in. Sure enough, within 3 weeks they had another 8! AND within a month they were all gone again, except one!

Somebody's buying 'em!

I use mine for developing all kinds of loads, testing them at the range (having a ball!) and go looking for game! Most users in North America do the same. And "down under" they do likewise.

So, you're not being an honest Canadian!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

there is one at Griffin and Howe. $1100.

Did you say you’d buy it for whoever found one?

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101236710

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/844556888 FN

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/847450139 Winchester Super Grade

Champlins also has a super grade.

These things are not hens’ teeth.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP
Jokes and memes aside:

And this is serious..... unless you are building them custom where do you get a 458 Win in a factory gun ? Right now as it stands I cannot buy a new 458 Win in Canada bar a Zastava ! ...

Looking forward from the last reply on page 171 by ALF, I see on page 172 that Bob has set Alf straight on the specific above.
The rest of his whining in that post is not worthy of repeating.

Ups and downs occur in human endeavors, always, but life goes on.
.45-bore rifles went through a silly little ban in parts of Africa and India in 1905,
spurring other NE bores to copy the same ballistics as the .450 NE, never really bettering anything.
That soon fell away and the .450 NE supremacy returned.
Safari hunting itself has come and gone a couple of times.
Double rifles too, and their ammunition.
The .416 Rigby nearly vanished, to get more specific, but returned after resurrection of the .416 caliber rifle by the likes of George Hoffman.
The .458 Winchester Magnum was the messenger of many revivals,
and then the jealous "deniers" tried to kill the messenger.
They failed.
THE MISSION and its MISSIONARIES will keep the faith and keep the lore of the ultimate Little Big Bore.
The .458 Winchester Magnum will again be the messenger of a revival.
May Doubting Alf live long enough in these interesting times to see it come to pass.

Rip ...

416Tanzan,

Excellent work.



The King returns, just like the .458 Winchester Magnum

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Baxter B In Canada !
It's no good trying to get guns across borders. Especially the US Border !
I have rifles in SA and can get my hands on some very nice pieces but getting them into Canada is an issue ! The Canadians issue a import permit valid for a year. The South Africans drag their feet and by the time they issue their export permit the Canadian import permit has expired. it's a gong show !

Hey man, I can't help it you are in Canada. Can't Trudeau do something about the lack of 458s there?

Wasn't Alf referring to new 458s?

My own comments about Australia were for new 458s. Plenty of 458s available but not new from gun shop. For new rifles 458 Lott rules.

If you don’t mind a harsh drink...

Special buy a buy a donkeys to BaxterB and Fury01 for helping out with Alf.

Some gunporn with redeeming social value comes from their links.
But boom stick's cartoon is plumb depraved,
though if that stuff was real, we might guess that shootaway had been hitting that bottle,
and I do not mean his legendary offhand shooting with a .458 Lott.

See below.

Rip ...

BRNO ZKK 602 .458 Winchester Magnum, 8 lbs 12 oz, 25" barrel: $1,100 US

Browning Safari .458 Winchester Magnum with Muzzle Brake "Custom Rifle"
with 22" barrel, no weight specified, includes 6 boxes of factory ammo worth over $500, grand total:
$1,899 US

One of 1226 ever made (1956-1963), 25" barrel, weight not specified but last advertised in 1963 to be "9 lbs. approximate,"
this one was made in 1961,
bidding starts at $9,997
or buy it now for $10,497 US:







Rip ...

Alf,

A few years ago I bought this Super Grade at Cabela's in Louisville, KY, with 24" barrel, 9 lbs 0 oz, new in box.
The box was a colorful, fanciful re-creation of a 1961 Super Grade cardboard box and tags.
Lo and behold, a .458 Winchester Magnum that was not made last century:




What they did to the "African" rear sight:



And the floorplate !



24"-barreled, 9#-0oz .458 WIN-V-3.4" above,
23"-barreled, 7#-15oz .458 WIN-V-3.6" below (that weight is without the sling and butt cover that can be used on either rifle):



Rip ...

The .458 Winchester Magnum handles the "bull" like a certain "politician" can do eight seconds or eight years:



Bullcrapper pictured above is named Nancy Puh-loser, from a place where humans crap on the streets and in grocery store aisles, San Francisco.
I left my fart in San Francisco.
Home is where the fart is.
Luck of the draw.
Getting a bull so full of BS for your ride makes 8-years doo-able for a champion bullsitter.

Rip ...

Cabela's looks a nice rifle, RIP, but the sights are redolent of what I invented for 'regulating' double rifles - except mine were linked to a lead weight to flip under recoil inertia.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Special buy a buy a donkeys to BaxterB and Fury01 for helping out with Alf.

Some gunporn with redeeming social value comes from their links.
But boom stick's cartoon is plumb depraved,
though if that stuff was real, we might guess that shootaway had been hitting that bottle,
and I do not mean his legendary offhand shooting with a 458 Lott. 12 gage.

See below.

Rip ...

Fixed it for you RIPster.

Rip,
I'm sure that Hodgdon will be getting a new .458 Win Mag piezo electronic transducer pressure barrel for the lab as soon as the 300 Savage, 300 H&H, and 25-35 WCF piezo barrels arrive. As in never.

ALF:

You're making it very difficult for anyone here to take you seriously.

Stop complaining and get yourself a Zastava, spend some money on it -- taking it to a competent gunsmith, and voila, you'll have what you want -- if you're serious!

If not, stop your complaining.

And by the way, a competent hunter can make a single-shot into a DGR. Surely you know something of the history of African DG hunting!

And I'd take my Ruger#1 in .458 WM for African DG anytime. After all, with the typical "army" that accompanies the "client", at least four of which carry weapons, what's to be overly concerned with.

At the very least, I've hunted dozens of bears with singles-shots, with no one with a rifle within miles.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Cabela's looks a nice rifle, RIP, but the sights are redolent of what I invented for 'regulating' double rifles - except mine were linked to a lead weight to flip under recoil inertia.

Actually that Winchester rear sight has a powerful, little, flat spring so that to fold requires "camming over"
and it will not happen from recoil,.
Seems the difference in height of the 2 shallow V's is only about 0.030".

Replacing that factory rear sight might be cool:



Rip ...

Todd,

Thanks for the correction. My excuse for the mistake is that it's hard to tell the difference between shootaway's targets/patterns with either rifle OR shotgun.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
ALF:
... And by the way, a competent hunter can make a single-shot into a DGR. Surely you know something of the history of African DG hunting!
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Reminds me of Ross Seyfried using a .461 Gibbs No.2 to take a cape buffalo in Botswana on Tony Makris's UNDER WILD SKIES.
Ross wrote it up in a DGJ article way back when ...
I'll look for that whenever I get a minute ...



Rip ...

That would be something else to re-enact by using the most versatile firearm in the known Universe, the .458 WIN:

Mr. Girandoni and son did some good work over 200 years ago.

rIP ...

How much of the case rim does a CRF extractor actually cover as compared to say a Howa or M16.

I say "actual" because part of the blade is not actual extractor.

Also, I have often wondered with a Push Feed what effect the "twisting" on the case rim has as the bolt is opened. I do know on Rem 700s that did not have the riveted extractor that on a hot load the bolt would rotate around the extractor so if riveted there would have been a twisting effect on the case.

Mike must have missed the intended "Heym Express vs. Sako 85" thread with this reply:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
How much of the case rim does a CRF extractor actually cover as compared to say a Howa or M16.

With a proper M98 about 1/4 of the rim circumference is acted upon.
How much would you say the others grab ?

I say "actual" because part of the blade is not actual extractor.

But most of the true-M98 claw is actually pulling on the rim in extraction.

Also, I have often wondered with a Push Feed what effect the "twisting" on the case rim has as the bolt is opened. I do know on Rem 700s that did not have the riveted extractor that on a hot load the bolt would rotate around the extractor so if riveted there would have been a twisting effect on the case.

Not much twisting if not Mauser-CRE, more like just some scratching around in the extractor groove of the case.
See Heym/Sako thread.

Rip ...

In January 2004 Ross Seyfried's .458 WIN Denial boiled over in RIFLE #211: "In Defiance of the .458 Winchester."

In Spring 2006, in the Premier Issue of UNDER WILD SKIES, an NRA advertisement said this, just to spite Ross:



Above, with my summary comment, is a detail from this ad:

It is quite ironic, downright funny in fact, that after Ross's screed of January 2004, against the .458 WIN,
his adoration of the .461 Gibbs No. 2 was published in the THE DOUBLE GUN JOURNAL of Summer 2004:
.461 Gibbs-Metford
A "Selous" Rifle Goes Home To Bechuanaland
Schwing !
570 grains of paper-patched lead with wads ahead of 90 grains of the BP of the 19th Century,
about 1350 fps MV.
Schwing !
Ross had to use 100 grains of 21rst Century "GOEX Cartridge" to fill the case and make the rifle shoot to original sight settings as with original British BP, 90 grains of "Trebel Strong #6, a very powerful powder."
Schwing !
A 1:20 alloy cast bullet,
yep, he killed a huge buffalo with that.
65-yard offhand shot at broadside shoulder, and a Portuguese Heart Shot as the bull ran off, 2nd shot was unnecessary but wise.
The first shot went through onside shoulder, crossed the chest and was under hide on offside.

The .458 WIN could certainly do that with cast bullets, and a great deal more with modern loads.

Surely Ross is just working a comedy schtick with the .458 WIN.
Irony is the highest form of humor.
That Ross ! What a comedian !

Rip ...

570-gr bullet with 90 grains of Trebel Strong #6 was the 1000-yard load. That is the target load and buffalo load.

360-gr bullet with 100 grains of Trebel Strong #6 was the "Express" load, sighted to 500 yards, for varmints and such.

"Tracks of a big tomcat reminded me that we were in Africa." Ha ha.



There is Rooster Jacket lube on the paper patch,
and two .060-inch Walters wads over the powder.

"Like the original Gibbs ammunition, there is no grease in the system, and unlike so much of modern work, there were no gymnastics about the loads or use. That is -- no compressed powder, widgets, barrel blowing or cleaning between shots. The grand old lady would hold about one minute of angle, clean or fouled."



I could say much the same about the .458 WIN-V with a more modern "system."

Rip ...