Yes, I now have two surragte, er, uh, surrogate 480-ish grainers to save on those 5-dollar 480-ish grainers.

Rip ...

If I cast this one in Linotype, it is my third surrogate 480-ish-grainer.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

It is not a competition.

But, anything, under hunting conditions, the 458 can do my 375/404 will do better.

I am inclined to agree with Saeed, the 375 bore is best.

Also agree that it is better if you have more than the 375 H&H.

As far as I can recall Saeed has had his 375/404 Improveds loaded to what would be top 375 Wby ballistics, so backed off loads.

There is no doubt that the 458 Winchester in a 3.6" (or longer magazine) sees of the 458 Lott. However, the 375 bore size is the best. And also the 270.

Hence my email address mike270375@gmail.com No secret as in my profile.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

I am inclined to agree with Saeed,

Please note we are not on the Political forum. On the PF I am 100% against Saeed

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

I am inclined to agree with Saeed,

Please note we are not on the Political forum. On the PF I am 100% against Saeed

Mr McGuire,

Your PREFERENCE is a .375 Wby or .375 RUM, right? But this thread is about PHYSICS, and how that can be manipulated in .458-cal to the profit of a hunter who wants to use it, as in the days-or-yore, to hunt ANYTHING small, medium or large. And it can be used, as RIP cheerfully points out, in throwing chunks of pure lead, medium hard, or hard lead, dressed in bright red paint for target shooting at 600 yards or buffalo at the same.

Or, as in my preferences, the possibility of pushing a solid copper 350gr TSX at 2760 fps into MOA for my next moose hunt! That's one example only.

I too have owned a number of .375 H&Hs. The best was the worst! That is, it gave the best velocity from 300s but the worst accuracy! It had a 26" barrel that shot 300s at 2700+ fps (about the equal of today's RUM), but into 2.5" at 100 yds. The .375 H&H was my PREFERENCE for anything "big" on this side of the big pond. That would be a big bull moose or big bears -- that was until I owned my first .45-70! Then, based on physics and experience, I never looked at a .375-cal again.

The .458 WIN is an extension of that twenty years of experience with ten .45-70s.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Well, though "not a competition" this repartee is fun.

Imagine this crew around a campfire after a days hunt!

I know that Phil would wish Barnes would make the 400 TSX. I’ll bet others as well. I’m personally happy with my 425-485 cast loads. I can kill anything here as far as I want to shoot. No big bears left on the Great Plains.

Rip,
Thanks for the pix of the WW 300 grain bullets and the comments on measured velocity. Some of my experience with WW ammo will vary from yours.

Back when I bought my "as new" Miroku/Winchester 1886 45-90 (.458 2.4) with 26 inch barrel, the only commercially available .45-90 ammo was for Cowboy action shooting and therefore low velocity. I bought and shot some just for fun and for brass to reload.

Realizing that hunting with .45-70 ammo would be necessary until I determined how best to hand load for my 45-90, I bought several brands of 300 and 400 grain .45- 70 ammo to test for accuracy and velocity. All the results were logged on a spread sheet. (this was also when I learned how to shoot with a curved metal butt plate).

Without digging out my records, I do remember that all the best brand ammo did chrono at or close to advertised specs. This put all the 300 grain ammo above 1800 fps, so I then focused on the bullets used.
My choice was the Winchester Supreme Nosler Protected Point at 1850 fps and that worked the best on Texas deer and thin skinned exotics. It worked so well, that I bought a supply of the .458 Nosler PP bullets for my 45-90. These were designed for a max impact speed of 2200 fps, so that was the MV of the load for our African bullet test ammo where it performed beautifully on a goat-eating leopard.
I have since used a variety of bullets in this rifle and found 300 grain bullets adequate for all but the big bears and other large DG.
For Cape Buff and such the Kodiak 450 grain FMJ at 2150 has proven to be VERY effective. Ele required solids and we used North Fork and Punch.

So, in addition to saying good things about the Winchester Supreme 45-70 ammo, I may have provided you with more grist for your mill that the .458 Win Mag (.458 2.5) is a superb all around big game rifle (my .458 2.4 seems to be).

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Well, though "not a competition" this repartee is fun.

Imagine this crew around a campfire after a days hunt!

Yes,

and if over 70-years old, I would be cleaning a 416 Ruger from its devastating first shot and insurance shot up close.

Best of both the 375 and 458 worlds for a light carry do-all rifle where the buff and the antelope play.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
My choice was the Winchester Supreme Nosler Protected Point at 1850 fps and that worked the best on Texas deer and thin skinned exotics. It worked so well, that I bought a supply of the .458 Nosler PP bullets for my 45-90. These were designed for a max impact speed of 2200 fps, so that was the MV of the load for our African bullet test ammo where it performed beautifully on a goat-eating leopard.
I have since used a variety of bullets in this rifle and found 300 grain bullets adequate for all but the big bears and other large DG.
For Cape Buff and such the Kodiak 450 grain FMJ at 2150 has proven to be VERY effective. Ele required solids and we used North Fork and Punch.

So, in addition to saying good things about the Winchester Supreme 45-70 ammo, I may have provided you with more grist for your mill that the .458 Win Mag (.458 2.5) is a superb all around big game rifle (my .458 2.4 seems to be).

crshelton,

That is a great reply to serve as mile marker No. 166 on this thread.
Much better than what I am about to show:

Details are yet to be worked out for paper-patching the bullets and the sabots.
Paper jackets shoot cleanly and accurately as a rule,
as long as they separate from the bullet on muzzle exit !
Shoot one every now and then to clean your rifle.
Maybe a lube on that outer paper patch around the sabot ?

I have a bunch of different sabots that are all .450" diameter at the base and accept a .400"-diameter bullet.
I am sure this can be made to work with great accuracy and great velocity should one have some .375-caliber bullets to be used in one's .458 WIN.
Using small-bore bullets in the ultimate-medium-bore .458 WIN adds to the fun.

Yep, for any hunting situation, the .458 WIN is THE WINNER.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

I am inclined to agree with Saeed,

Please note we are not on the Political forum. On the PF I am 100% against Saeed

Mike,

Quoting oneself is a great technique to add miles to THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey.

Your comment on your self-quote is quite true, downright factual.
However, regarding the mere opinion contained within your self-quote, related to the .458 WIN, that is quite assuredly disagreeable to many here.
I am inclined to agree with Bob's opinion on that matter.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I know that Phil would wish Barnes would make the 400 TSX. I’ll bet others as well. I’m personally happy with my 425-485 cast loads. I can kill anything here as far as I want to shoot. No big bears left on the Great Plains.

HEAR HERE !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Well, though "not a competition" this repartee is fun.

Imagine this crew around a campfire after a days hunt!

Yes,

and if over 70-years old, I would be cleaning a 416 Ruger from its devastating first shot and insurance shot up close.

Best of both the 375 and 458 worlds for a light carry do-all rifle where the buff and the antelope play.

And I can confirm that a .416 Rem.Mag. M70 Winchester has been recently de-barreled and the action successfully 8x40-ed in the scope base holes.
I am anxiously waiting completion of the transplant surgery in which a 23" No.4 McGowen sporter barrel is to be grafted,
Lord willin' and the creeks don't rise !

It will be interesting to try both .375-caliber and .458-caliber bullets in a spritely 7.5-pounder,
for the best of both worlds.
No compromising with a .416-caliber !

Rip ...

Those .45/.40-cal sabots might be a good carrier for .40-cal balls, for turning the .458 WIN into a real squirrel rifle !
Might add to versatility with shotshell loads too.
They are bore-rider diameter, might reduce the spin and spreading of shot ?
Might deliver no-spin, improved, smoothbore function for cylinder choke.
If improved accuracy with a solitary .40-cal ball is needed, we are back to trying a paper jacket around the sabot,
paper-patch it from .450" diameter to bigger, like .458" to .461".
The .458 WIN just got even more versatile.
From squirrels to elephants.

Of course, 480-grainers at 1300 fps to 2300 fps is its real forte,
with home-made bullets for pennies, or 5-dollars-per-bullet store-bought.
One way or another, best rifle for filling the cookpot and for a life insurance policy for every hunter.
I'll say it again: "A chicken in every pot and a .458 WIN in every home."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

It is not a competition.

But, anything, under hunting conditions, the 458 can do my 375/404 will do better.

I am inclined to agree with Saeed, the 375 bore is best.

Also agree that it is better if you have more than the 375 H&H.

As far as I can recall Saeed has had his 375/404 Improveds loaded to what would be top 375 Wby ballistics, so backed off loads.

There is no doubt that the 458 Winchester in a 3.6" (or longer magazine) sees of the 458 Lott. However, the 375 bore size is the best. And also the 270.

Hence my email address mike270375@gmail.com No secret as in my profile.

I like your combo of a 270 and a 375 (I would do 270Win and 375Ruger). But then I remember what a little extra energy has done in our hunting and come back to a 338WM and 416. (The 270 is nice for little antelope and a 200-yard spurwing goose down across a river. I handload the 416Rigby to 2800fps+ with 350TTSX, but my next 416 rifle will probably be a 416Ruger for easier carry while maintaining some punch. [RIP--I'm still not 70. ])

There he goes again, compromising.
Best done in politics, not in rifles.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Mr McGuire,

Your PREFERENCE is a .375 Wby or .375 RUM, right?

Not specifically. The 375 bore size and 375 Wby or 375 AI as the minimum. My own pick is the 378 as it will load and with top accuracy ballistics from the 375 H&H and up.

For many many years Saeed has used his 375/404 Improved with 300 grainers at 2750 f/s or so and thus he is duplication the 375 Wby/AI ballistics but with the 375/404 he is doing that with what amounts to backed off loads.

Unless you are Saeed or are living in Australia's Northern Territory then you will not shoot many big animals. You do need plenty of kills to a definite gain of one calibre over another. A look at AR's African forum and African Hunt reports will demonstrate on one hand a bloke shooting a buffalo with his 375 and it takes a fee steps and down it goes. Another bloke with a 458 Lott or 500 A2 etc. almost wears the barrel out getting hos buffalo down. Of course shoot 20 animals and the 458 Lott nd 500 A2 will show as being superior to the 375.

RIP has heaped praise on the 375 Wby. Saeed has used "375 Wby ballistics" for many African trips and his shooting has covered lots of animals and from the small animals and up to the big stuff. Saeed' very extensive experience on a very wide range of animal sizes and in very big numbers is a very strong argument for the 375 RUM loaded back to 375 Wby ballistics. Also, Saeed takes two rifles to Africa and BOTH of them are his 375/404 Improved. If the 375/404 Improved loaded to 375 Wby ballistics fell short on the big animals then since he takes two rifles then they would be a 375 /404 Imp plus a 458 "Something"

Saeed's .375 has always been backed up by a Vincent, Roy or Alan,
carrying a .458:
.450 Ackley Magnum or .450 Vincent Long or Short.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed's .375 has always been backed up by a Vincent, Roy or Alan,
carrying a .458:
.450 Ackley Magnum or .450 Vincent Long or Short.

Rip ...

And in almost 40 years, non of them has ever fired a single shot at a charging buffalo wounded by the 375/404

Saeed,

I knew that was coming.

The Vincents are always well equipped for any eventuality, with .458 bullets.

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION in more ways than anybody else.



Rip ...

Of historic interest, the short shrift given to the .458 WIN in the past:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

No cartridge picture or wildlife photo for header like the other cartridges. That is a -ing shame.

The following data was developed in a custom rifle built on the Remington 700 Safari action. We installed a Dan Lilja 25-inch stainless steel fluted barrel, with a 14-inch twist, and re-stocked it in a McMillan synthetic stock. The action was glass bedded using the Brownell’s Steel Bed.

The use of a Remington 700 shows disrespect for the .458 WIN at the outset of a half-hearted "experiment."

We used the Winchester large rifle magnum primer in Winchester brass. All groups are 3 shots at 100 yards.

All loads with the 500-grain bullets were compressed – even the starting loads. Maximum charges were very heavily compressed.

And only VVN135, VVN540, and W748 were tried with 500-grainer!
There are much better choices nowadays, some requiring no compression at all for submaximal pressure at 2200 fps with 500-grainers.

Obviously, this rifle does not like the 300-grain bullets!

All of my .458 WIN rifles hate that same bullet too! It's the 300-grain Sierra Pro-Hunter FNHP. That bullet vaporizes at muzzle exit, at 2800 fps MV.

We are planning to re-chamber this barrel for the 458 Lott and see what improvements we can get over the original 458 Winchester.

AH HA ! The real motive of the "experiment" !
And no mention of the remnant .458 WIN throat that allowed the .450 Ackley to perform like a .458 WIN LongCOL ?

My pick of the three powders:

HORNADY 500 FMJ
73.0 grains VVN 540 >>> 2016 fps 1.090"
80.5 grains VVN 540 >>> 2178 fps 1.780"

Accuracy pick:

72.5 grains VVN 135 >>> 2024 fps 0.542"

Not bad at all, except for +110% load ratio compression with the VVN 540, top velocity load.
It's hard to DENY the .458, though some have tried in the past.

Rip ...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450ackleymag.html

Note use of .458 WIN remnant throat and LongCOL loading to optimize the .450 Ackley Magnum:



450 ACKLEY MAGNUM

The following data was developed in a Remington 700 rifle with a Lilja 25-inch barrel. The barrel had a twist rate of 14. This is the same barrel we used to develop the 458 Winchester magnum data in. We thought it would be interesting to see what sort of velocity increase we could get out of it.

We used the Winchester large rifle Magnum primers and Remington 416 Remington brass throughout our tests.

470-grain/.458-caliber Walterhog Bullet:
94.5 grains of RL-15 >>> 2476 fps 0.333" COL: 3.800”

That is my cherry picking of the load data. The .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" or even 3.8" would not be far behind it,
only maybe more accurate and less recoil.
The bullet would touch the lands at the same COL in the SAAMI .458 WIN chamber.
The choice of 470-grainer for a monometal copper .458 bullet is a wise one, the FN meplat too.
I would have made it 480 grains if I had my druthers for the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450vs.html

450 Vincent Short


The following data was developed by my friend Roy Vincent in a rifle he built himself, on a Brno ZG47 action and a Lilja 25" barrel. RWS brass and Federal 215 primers were used.

500-gr HORNADY RN FMJ
91.0 grains N 202 >>> 2475 fps COL: 3.390"
My cherry-picked load from Roy's load table. I like that COL that works so well in the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.4-Inch.



404 parent case, 450 Vincent Long and the 450 Vincent Short

A second .450 Vincent Short was built and re-chamber later to .450 Vincent Long.
Saeed was experimenting again.


The following data was developed in a rifle built on a Weatherby Mk V action, and a Lilja 26-inch barrel. Federal 215 primers and RWS brass was used.

500-gr HORNADY RN FMJ
94.0 grains VARGET >>> 2538 fps COL: 3.435"
Another great COL, why not if you have the magazine length and the throat allows it.
Saeed's Mama did not raise any fools.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450vl.html

450 Vincent Long



The following data was developed by my friend Roy Vincent in a rifle he has built himself on an FN Mauser, and a Douglas 24" barrel. RWS brass and Federal 215 primers were used. Some of you might wonder about the discrepancy of the velocities with Reloader 15. Apparently, these are the results Roy got from his chronograph.


404 parent case on the left, 450 Vincent Long and the 450 Vincent Short

Roy's top load was not with the RL-15:
500-gr HORNADY RN FMJ
111.0 grains W 748 >>> 2631 fps COL: 3.700"
Maybe single-loaded in an FN Mauser?

Ol' Roy got one-upped again by the inveterate experimenter, Saeed,
but Saeed did have a 2" longer barrel:


The following data was developed in a rifle built on a Weatherby Mk V action, and a Dan Lilja barrel, finished at 26". It is the same barrel as we used for the 450 Vincent Short. We just ran the longer reamer into it.

Bullet: 470-gr/.458-cal. Walterhog
108.0 grains VVN 540 >>> 2657 fps 0.680" COL: 3.810”

More impressive:
500-gr Hornady RN FMJ
103.0 grains VARGET >>> 2659 fps COL: 3.630"
All the top performers are "LongCOL".

Moral of the story ?
It is better to have a SAAMI .458 WIN chamber and a longer magazine box than to have a SAAMI .458 Lott in any magazine length.

Rip ...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/458lott.html

458 Lott


The totem photo of the .458 Lott is fading away ... just like the SAAMI .458 Lott's supposed superiority over the .458 WIN !

The following data was developed by my friend F.R. Mitchell, in a Custom rifle built on a Pre-64 Winchester 70 action, with a 22 1/2 " barrel.

WE DO NOT KNOW THROAT OF THIS RIFLE. IT COULD BE A RE-CHAMBERED .458 WIN !

Top velocity load from table, with 500-gr bullet:
500-gr HORNADY RN SP
80.0 grains H335 >>> 2235 fps

Now try that same powder and bullet in the .458 WIN, loaded to the same COL and same pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Same barrel length and identical rifling.
Same 3.6" magazine box.
SAAMI .458 WIN chamber versus SAAMI .458 Lott chamber.

You will be able to load a greater powder charge and get higher velocity with the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

The .458 Winchester Magnum Reloading page is sadly neglected here:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/458winmag.html

I offer this as a "totem photo" to head the page:



We all know that Saeed is using a .375/404 Jeffery in that photo from the early years of his wildcatting days.
With maturity comes wisdom.

BTW, he is shooting .375 Weatherby Magnum loads in it and getting almost exactly same results in the .375/404J as he would in the .375 Weatherby Magnum:
PRESSURE and VELOCITY !!!

That is because of his short throat.
The way he loads the Walterhog, all of the bullet ahead of the case mouth is sub-caliber diameter.
That works great in a zero-free-bore rifle.

The throat of the ".375/404 Jeffery Saeed of circa 1996" is Cosmic Squirrel Secret,
never revealed in the 20 years I have been lurking and not lurking here.

This perfectly illustrates how the approximately bullet-caliber-length Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore of the .375 Weatherby (only 0.0006" wider than bullet diameter)
creates effective case capacity increase and pressure let-off in the .375 Wby.Mag.
That is how the throat of the .458 WIN works too,
except it is all leade, no PSFB in the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

A cartridge photo is needed for that .458 Winchester Magnum Reloading Page too:

Gotta have a rifle photo for that .458 Win.Mag. Reloading page too:

Just in case Saeed refuses to endorse the .458 WIN, for whatever mysterious reason,
some more "totem photos" to possibly head the Reloading Page dedicated to the .458 Winchester Magnum:

Or this one:

The "totem photo" for this thread:



Rip ...

Well, RIP, repetition's the basic concept of advertising - and we know it well enough here since the present PM is an old ad man. The difference is, of course, that Muhammad Ali really may have been the greatest. The thing that amazed me, though, was that having an iconic name like Cassius Clay he would change it to one shared by millions of other people.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Well, RIP, repetition's the basic concept of advertising - and we know it well enough here since the present PM is an old ad man. The difference is, of course, that Muhammad Ali really may have been the greatest. The thing that amazed me, though, was that having an iconic name like Cassius Clay he would change it to one shared by millions of other people.

And ironically, the Cassius Clay of the 19th century was an abolitionist, while Muhammad of the 7th century was a slave owner. Nevertheless, Muhammad Ali the boxer claimed that he was looking to leave a slave tradition in going from the name Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali. I guess Ali didn't do too well in history.

Irony is the highest form of humor.
Cassius Marcellus "Muhammad Ali" Clay was quite a comedian and a fighter.

The original Cassius Marcellus Clay was a fighter too, sometimes with a Bowie Knife at a gunfight, and he won, more than once !
More irony !



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...lus_Clay_(politician)

"... His anti-slavery activism earned him violent enemies. During a political debate in 1843, he survived an assassination attempt by Sam Brown, a hired gun. The scabbard of Clay's Bowie knife was tipped with silver, and in jerking the Bowie knife out in retaliation pulled this scabbard up so that it was just over his heart. Sam Brown's bullet struck the scabbard, and embedded itself in the silver. Despite being shot in the chest, Clay drew his Bowie knife, tackled Brown, cut out his eyes, and finally threw him over an embankment.

"In 1845, Clay began publishing an anti-slavery newspaper, True American, in Lexington, Kentucky. Within a month he received death threats, had to arm himself, and regularly barricaded the armored doors of his newspaper office for protection, besides setting up two four-pounder cannons inside."

" ... While making a speech for abolition in 1849, Clay was attacked by the six Turner brothers, who beat, stabbed and tried to shoot him. In the ensuing fight, Clay fought off all six and, using his Bowie knife, killed Cyrus Turner."

Rip ...

This .458 WIN endorsement has been channeled by the original Cassius Clay (aka "Lion of White Hall") who was in turn channeled by his namesake-forsaker, Muhammad Ali (aka "Louisville Lip").
How ironic.

Rip ...