Thanks Ron, as the other Walter would say:
https://www.bing.com/videos/se...A813CE22CD&FORM=VIRE

Paul,

Dude ! Yes the .458 WIN is the Big Lebowski.
I could kill some time watching that one again.

Yep, more "stable stable" for longer straight-line penetration.
The nose shape might be better for permanent wound cavity and bleed-out too.
Geoff found it quite stable for blowing through big bull camels on his first outing with it.
The .458/480-grainer was the first one he made and tested.
They are still available, must be OK.

If it ain't raining, sleeting, or snowing here lately, the wind has been blowing too hard to stand a chronograph up in the mud.
Better weather coming.

Rip ...

Frontside and backside of packaging:



I don't know if T/C sells these anymore, but I have a couple of packs of them.



Using the McGowen Twist calculator, if this sabot-bullet was fired from the common 1:28" twist .50-cal. muzzleloader,
velocity would need to be 2100 fps for stability.

The 400-grain "Bone Crusher" solid is .459" actual diameter and 1.152" long.
All brass outer jacket covering a gilding metal and lead core.
Cute !
It is cannelured nicely for the .458 WIN, and 2100 to +2400 fps would be a cinch in the SAAMI .458 WIN at exactly 3.340" COL. Seating depth 0.312".

Rip ...

Left to right below are some bullets to try in a .50-cal. for muzzleloader season:

.459"/409-gr Berry's old-version Hardcast for .45-70 Govt.: 1.056" bullet length

.459"/400-gr T/C Bone Crusher: 1.152" bullet length (for DG where solids are permitted)

.457"/478-gr (50:50 WW/Pb) Lyman 457121 PH: 1.220" bullet length



The Berry's 409-grainer would work at 1575 fps in a 1:28" twist,
easily attainable with Blackhorn 209, and maybe with real BP in a .50-cal. muzzleloader.

The Bone Crusher and the PH both need to go faster than I want to with a muzzleloader.
Too much gas be blowing out of the touch hole of my flintlock.



In the sabot the diameter is .505" for the Bone Crusher and .503" for the PH.
Maybe they could be paper-patched over the sabot and fired from various .510"-.512" grooved centerfire rifles, with twist rates from 1:9" to 1:26",
just to be using a "Four-Five-Eight" bullet for all seasons and all reasons.

Rip ...

If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

Rip ...

Clint wouldn’t mess with no stainless/synthetic .458 WM!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Clint wouldn’t mess with no stainless/synthetic .458 WM!

Or a scoped 458WM for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

...what about the 458Lott!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

...what about the 458Lott!

You aren't keeping up here are ya?

Anyone who thinks the 458 is ideal also think HILARY is a beauty queen

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who thinks the 458 is ideal also think HILARY is a beauty queen

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Ouch !

Truly laughable.
Hillary-ous, pun intended.
Is that all you have?
Just the typical liberal appeal to nonsubstantive emotionality about the issues with no understanding of reality?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Clint wouldn’t mess with no stainless/synthetic .458 WM!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Clint wouldn’t mess with no stainless/synthetic .458 WM!

Or a scoped 458WM for that matter.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

...what about the 458Lott!

You aren't keeping up here are ya?

shootaway is obviously a low-IQ type who thinks Hillary Clinton is a beauty queen.

Rip ...

Seriously now:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
If the .458 WM is so perfect, why do you keep diddling with perfection? A 450/400, forsooth!

I have a Ruger No.1 450/400 NE 3" and a CZ 550 Magnum .410/404 Jeffrey Rimless Nitro Express that uses 450/400 NE 3" dies to size the slightly shorter brass.
So I am quite familiar with the original .400 S Jeffery, aka .450/400 NE 3",
the first ever "NITRO EXPRESS"
that was actually shooting in a single-shot rifle before the first 450 NE 3.25" survived proof in a double rifle for the first time
(fifth set of barrels finally survived for the "450 Rigby Special" originally).

It now occurs to me that a .410-caliber bullet shoved into a .45/.40 sabot might be perfect without paper-patching.
Thanks for goading me into the idea.
This will indeed add support for THE MISSION.
Traditional 2150-2200 fps NE ballistics,
or +2500 fps with 400-grainers in .410 caliber.
The Barnes .416/350-grain TSX also could be sized down to .410 and pushed along at 2750 fps.
I do that already for the .410/404 JRNE, works very well with 3 steps in the sizing down to .408 with spring-back and final result of .410-caliber bullet.
That would certainly out-whomp Saeed's .375/300-grainer at same velocity, and trajectory would be very close to same.
Done with a sabot load in the .458 WIN.

If the .458 is so ideal, why not it’s ancestor, the .450 NE, which comes in better looking rifles!

Now you are just being silly. I shoot the .450 NE 3.25" in a Ruger No.1 also,
and have several double rifles in calibers up to .470 NE.
They are all weak sisters to the .458 WIN bolt action repeater.

(This ought to extend things for a while, which seems to be the mission)

Yes it has, and it will continue to do do so for a long time.
Buy a donkey, buy a buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION.

Rip ...

The .458 WIN is WINNING, as always.

Rip ...

Squirrel and rabbit squib load for the .458 WIN:



Rat load for the .458 WIN:



Paper-patch over the sabot or non-sabot projectile for .45-cal muzzleloader, and push along at .22 LR velocity, faster if necessary for accuracy.
Hopefully one will be found accurate enough for beheading guinea fowl for the pot.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who thinks the 458 is ideal also think HILARY is a beauty queen

On the surface what you say is correct.

HOWEVER, many many years ago I used two 458 M70s as my main rifles. Mainly with loads of 400 grain Speer flat nose at right on 2000 f/s. I shot hundreds and hundreds of kangaroos, pigs, goats and emus. I did as good as with the 270 in terms of shots fired to hits achieved. Lots of long range as real flat ground as far as the eye can see. However, I shot those guns a lot.

A few pages back in this thread is a bloke called sharpsguy who is shooting everything with those Shiloh Sharps and his speeds are all in that 1200-1350 f/s area.

I know you will think this is ridiculous but looking back I think I had more success with those 458 M70s than any other rifle/calibre combination and we are talking smaller animals and long ranges, the two areas that most people would class the 458 as a poor choice.

The are plenty of blokes who live in Australia's Northern Territory who use the 458 for anything and everything that moves.

As I said go back and check out that sharpsguy bloke's results on game and targets with those Shiloh Sharps.

The 458 Winchester Magnum will kill anything on the face of this earth.

No arguments about it.

This is the same as saying a sail boat will get you across the pond to Paris.

And just as there are much better transport methods of getting to Paris, there so many calibers which are infinitely better for hunting too.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The 458 Winchester Magnum will kill anything on the face of this earth.

No arguments about it.

This is the same as saying a sail boat will get you across the pond to Paris.

And just as there are much better transport methods of getting to Paris, there so many calibers which are infinitely better for hunting too.

If you are talking about 500 grain bullets at 2100 f/s area them there are limitations with recoil. There is no way you will deal with that recoil spotlight shooting for several nights. However, 400 grains loaded back to 2000 f/s is a totally different deal.

I don't know whether you have done much shooting with big bullets in the 1300f/s to 2000 f/s range but what seems to happen is you have a "feel" about the thing. A 270 or similar might look far better on paper but that was not the case for me and I think plenty of others are the same. Sharpsguy is not the only bloke shooting smaller animals at long ranges with the Shiloh Sharps and as you know that stuff is only 1300 f/s

My feeling is one aspect of the low velocity is you get used to holding over.

The one caveat I would put on things though is you must do a lot of shooting. A similar thing applies to open sights. Some of the best long range shooting I have seen on kangaroos has been done with the SMLE 303 and open sights. Again, we are talking about someone who did a lot of shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The 458 Winchester Magnum will kill anything on the face of this earth.

Yes indeed, with the proper load.

No arguments about it.

HEAR HERE !

This is the same as saying a sail boat will get you across the pond to Paris.

Now the logical fallacy begins ...

And just as there are much better transport methods of getting to Paris,

A strawman prop for subterfuge ...

there so many calibers which are infinitely better for hunting too.

INFINITELY BETTER !
How does Saeed measure or calulate that infinity in reality, or is it only his imagination and verbal terms of exaggeration.
In reality he is speaking infinite BS !
Saeed has missed the sailboat altogether !

Speaking as Saeed does, I would have to say that the .458 WIN is infinitely more versatile than any other cartridge in the universe !
It is the very best there is for the Big Five on this planet,
but also passable for every other shooting application in this galactic cluster.

Rip ...

Years ago, I used to fill my car with different rifles, go out of town on the beach and shoot seagulls with them.

I had a Ruger #1 in 458 Winchester, and thought it did not kick hard enough, and might not be able to stop a seagull charge.

We re-chambered it to 460 Weatherby.

Worked much better, in both kick and killing power.

One time I was near an area our air force used for arial bombing training.

I found an unexploded bomb.

I thought the only thing one could do with it was shoot the bloody thing and see how it blows up.

I shot it with whatever rifles I had, non did anything to it.

Drove back home, and got my 460 Weratherby, and shot it.

It turned out it was a smoke bomb, as all I got was a long stream of smoke.

I was very disappointed!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Years ago, I used to fill my car with different rifles, go out of town on the beach and shoot seagulls with them.

Jolly good fun !

I had a Ruger #1 in 458 Winchester, and thought it did not kick hard enough, and might not be able to stop a seagull charge.

You were probably using some of those squib factory loads, sabotaged by the cabal of evil doers.
The same conspiracy persists to this day: .458 WIN DENIERS !

We re-chambered it to 460 Weatherby.

And then let your first "Champion" shoot it on video.

Worked much better, in both kick and killing power.

How much better did it kill those seagulls, infinitely better ?

One time I was near an area our air force used for aerial bombing training.

I found an unexploded bomb.

I thought the only thing one could do with it was shoot the bloody thing and see how it blows up.

I shot it with whatever rifles I had, non did anything to it.

Drove back home, and got my 460 Weratherby, and shot it.

It turned out it was a smoke bomb, as all I got was a long stream of smoke.

I was very disappointed!

A stink bomb, just like the cabal of .458 WIN deniers, all smoke, odor, and with no kinetic impact on the truth.

Rip ...

Saeed could have used some handloads for his seagull shooting with the .458 WIN.
Many excellent seagull loads will suit the SAAMI restricted cartridge just fine.
I have not tried the 250-grainer yet but expect it to get to 3000 fps quite easily,at 3.340" COL and sub 60,000 psi.
Here is a monometal of gilding metal that won't vaporize at 3000 fps,
even if the polymer tip does:

No tip to worry about for the short-range seagull shots with this 250-grainer,
though there will not be much left of the seagulls:

The CEB Raptor tips for .458-bullets will fit more securely into the Barnes HP than the CEB HP.
Might help for slightly longer shots at seagulls,
and can be single-loaded for those stuck with 3.4" magazine box:

For varmints heavier than seagulls:

Stuck with the unfriendly bands of CEB.

That 350-gr TSX is probably the best combination seagull, moose, and lion bullet.
Easy 2750 fps with 350-grainer.
I have gotten faster than 2800 fps, so has Bob Mitchell.
But like with Saeed's 300-grain Walterhog from the .375/404J,
we reckon the 350-gr/.458 TSX is best at about 2750 fps MV.
That is still a lot of muzzle whomp, more than Saeed throws,
and he is usually shooting inside of 200 yards,
where the 350-gr/.458 TSX is right at home.
One might want for a heavier bullet for elephant,
and for that the .458 WIN excels, infinitely.

Rip

quote:

Speaking as Saeed does, I would have to say that the .458 WIN is infinitely more versatile than any other cartridge in the universe !

Speaking as Saeed RIP does, I would have to say that the .458 WIN .416 RUGER is infinitely more versatile than any other cartridge in the universe !
Maybe in a Hawkeye African for the continent or a 20" Alaskan for snow country. 300 grains at 2800fps or 350 grains at 2600fps.

There he goes again.
Compromising like a politician. Or is
416Tanzan more like Solomon splitting the baby right down the middle at .416?
Mama .375 gets half a baby.
Mama .458 gets half a baby.
No.
I say Solomon knew Mama .458 and Mama .375 would work it out and share the baby, coming to their senses, avoiding the .416 split.

The .458 is no split between a .375 and a .54-caliber muzzleloader, though that is what the .458 WIN denying stink bombers would have us believe.

Rip ...

Neither politician nor King Solomon, yet both would praise the 416 Ruger.

quote:

Maybe in a Hawkeye African for the continent or a 20" Alaskan for snow country. 300 grains at 2800fps or 350 grains at 2600fps.

Just an Everyman hunter looking for the most bang for buck in a really nice-carrying, over-the-counter and ready rifle. The two rifles mentioned could be taken out of a box and used against anything anywhere, carried long distances by those with good-walking legs, and costs around 1K.

This is not to say that the 458 is not a nice cartridge. It is, but over the counter it usually costs more, weighs more, and recoils a tad more.

416Tanzan,

Really? You speak for King Solomon, and which politician ?

OK, so you admit that saying "the .416 Ruger is infinitely more versatile than any cartridge in the universe"
was just bald-faced balderdash.
Just trying to steal the thunder of the .458 WIN, or just trying to be economical?
The former is foolish, the latter is false economy.

The plethora of projectiles for the .458 WIN is greater in number than for any other caliber, considering all the certainties,
let alone the possibilities with creative reloading of ball, shot, sabot, etc.

Brass, powders, and rifle actions galore !
Factory loads galore !

Saying that the .416 Ruger factory rifle is cheaper than a .458 WIN rifle cobbled by a gunsmith re-barreling a .30-06,
or one of the many "used-market" .458 WIN rifles, is questionable.
Any old Mauser 98, Ruger M77, Winchester M70, etc., etc. can be converted to .458 WIN very reasonably.

Any "questionable" savings on initial rifle purchase of a .416 Ruger factory rifle, new or used,
are soon lost to greater ammunition costs, if the rifle is more than a safe queen.
More so for the handloader.

There can be only one best MOST PRACTICAL rifle in the known universe: .458 WIN.
It can be routinely 8.0 to 9.0 pounds bare, or heavier for shooting comfort, or lighter for carrying ease.
If recoil bothers, try a 480-grainer at 1300 fps instead of 2300 fps,
or a 400-grainer at 1500 fps instead of 2500 fps,
or a 350-grainer at 1750 fps instead of 2750 fps,
etc., etc.
No special tricks are needed to make just about anything shoot well in the .458 WIN at 1300 fps.
Experts have said that a hardcast lead, FN bullet of 480 grains/.458-caliber at 1300 fps will kill anything on this planet.
Very economical too.

Rip ...

But I like hunting at 2600-2800 fps.

Your descriptions lead me back to . . .
< drum roll >

the 416 Ruger

There is no such thing as BEST CARTRIDGE.

Best cartridge for what??

If we mean, as in this case, for all hunting of dangerous game, then anything that is legal is just as good as any other.

In fact, if 30 caliber was legal, I wou;d be happy to hunt anything that walks this earth with my 30/404!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
But I like hunting at 2600-2800 fps.

Your descriptions lead me back to . . .
< drum roll >

the 416 Ruger

Your specification leads me back to the .458 WIN.
.458/350-grain TSX at 2750 fps, 3.435" COL,
or 2650 fps at 3.335" COL.
I would use the light and fast bullets on top of a magazine full of 480-grainers at 2300 fps, softs or solids (DGX or DGS), at 3.340" COL,
if limited to shortCOL.

Rip ...