Before we move on to the Woodleigh manual data, a look back at some wildcats previously mentioned on this thread,
from that article in the 2014 GUN DIGEST,
for THE MISSION:





I think the full-length .458 WIN 2.5" case, necked down, would be better than a 50 BMG case for shooting bronze phonograph needles.
Maybe a sabot load and only a partial necking down would be more practical ?

Rip ...

Another way to go in wildcatting the .458 WIN:

I like that .423 Buhmiller a .423/.378 Wby.
Shades of my .404 RIP, the .423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus with 20-degree shoulder.
That 20-degree shoulder on mine significantly improves versus the 45-degree buckler of the .416 Rigby.
The .416 Rigby with 20-degree shoulder was the the first .416 Ruger.

The .500 Buhmiller and the .358 Barnes Supreme are most interesting here.
Both were pirated into other-named wildcats many years after they pioneered.
Oh wait, there other .350-bores on the H&H case before the .358 Barnes Supreme:

Here we see the .450 Barnes Supreme next to the .450 B-J Express, both are contemporaries of the .450 Ackley Magnum,
post .450 Watts Magnum:

Incipient case head separation?

For those wishing to keep the .458 WIN within SAAMI restrictions of 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi,
from the Woodleigh manual of 2014:

If you have a .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6",
or a .458 W-W Super 3.8",
use the .458 Lott loads as a starting point,
and expect to be able to exceed the maximums here:
(errata: The stated case capacities of the .458 Lott and .450 Ackley are about 40 grains excessive, beating the .460 Wby.)

Something funny here is that the .458 WIN SAAMI is only 5 fps slower than the .458 Lott SAAMI
with the 550-gr FMJ !
Yet the 450-grain Hydro is 200 fps slower in the .458 WIN (2280 fps) than in the .458 Lott (2480 fps).

Loads admittedly may come from different rifles within any section of the book.
Apparently if all are from same barrel for a given cartridge, that barrel length may be specified, Woodleigh says.

Barrel lengths are not specified for these two cartridges, so we are to assume them to be in the 22" to 26" range,
so it was stated in the introduction to the data section of the manual.
I am calling them both 24-inchers with uncertainty !

Rip ...

Was testing some 458 ammo for the upcoming brown bear season and ran some of the factory Norma 500 gr Swift loads across the chronograph --- 1850fps !!

Think I will stick to my old handloads with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded .

Or give Nosler's or the Hornady's that worked so well in Africa a try.

Sad sacks at Norma !
They claim 2116 fps with the 500-grain Swift A-Frame !

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Was testing some 458 ammo for the upcoming brown bear season and ran some of the factory Norma 500 gr Swift loads across the chronograph --- 1850fps !!

Think I will stick to my old handloads with Jack Carter's original Trophy Bonded .

Or give Nosler's or the Hornady's that worked so well in Africa a try.

AA-2460 is great for 500-grainers and 480-grainers,
giving higher velocity and lower pressure than even the most excellent AA-2230.
Non-compressed with AA-2230.
Mildly compressed with AA-2460 in the SAAMI .458 WIN: Just what the doctor ordered to lock your firmly crimped bullet in place.





I am preferring the .458/480-gr DGX nowadays, along with a Woodleigh Hydro of same weight.
Even at 3.340" COL, 2200 fps is a "tropical" load with in the 480-grain DGX in the .458 WIN.
If 2300 fps in a 25" barrel,
easy 2200 fps in a 21" Ol'Ugly .458 WIN barrel.
It is the ultimate in .450 Nitro Express comfort.

Rip ...

Good to see Phil posting on this thread -- we need his experience.

RIP,

I'm loaded for tests on Friday if the weather cooperates. This is intended for fall hunting of bear/wolf. Mostly woods walking, then sitting and calling. (I was able to get a new electronic caller a few days ago -- marked down from $54.99 to $12.99! These are actual recordings in a hand-held caller that runs on 3 X AAAs. Has an excellent volume control with 5 buttons recording coyotes, deer and rabbits. My old electronic caller died many years ago, but I have several others that work in blowing into/through them.)

Bullet: 300gr TSX/.458"
COL = 3.32"
Powder: 73 grains H4198 (Hodgdon lists 77 as max @ 50,700 cup ((59,826 psi)) = 2784 fps from a 24". I'm expecting about 2700 fps. But I've gone as high as 82 grains at 2980 fps (max volume compressed) in Win brass ignited by WLRM primers. No issues except case volume.)
WLRM primer
Remington cases (5x used. I've ordered some new Hornady)

Will need to re-sight after shooting the 470 hardcasts (at which time the former buttstock developed hairline cracks due to the Lead Sled - many thanks again for the "spare". I think it looks super!).

Want to sight at +1" @ 100 yds. That should be zero at 150 yards.

Recoil will be only about 35 ft-lbs with the Mag-Na-Porting. About the same as a .300 Win Mag shooting 200s at 2960.

Will report after tests.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Sounds like a plan.
Any reports of results will greatly further THE MISSION.
Interesting that your load is even milder than the Hodgdon data, SAAMI compliant in all regards,
and way more energetic than a .375 H&H.
Look out bear/wolf hybrids !
Hunting those critters by calling can be exciting.
Sounds like technology has greatly improved.
The electronic calls I lugged around in the past were like dragging a car battery, cassette tape player, and bullhorn combo.
Now I just use a squeeler in my mouth and a different kind of Johnny Walker.

Rip ...

This is a classic bonded soft point for your 458 Lott. A great load for Cape Buffalo.
Caliber : .458 Lott
Bullet : 500gr. Woodleigh Welcore JSP
Ballistics : 2350fps - 6133 ft./lbs. - 25.0" bbl. CZ 550
Solids available upon request for $104.95 / 20rds.
Box of 20rds.
********************************************************************************************

Let us hope Doubletap loads are closer to advertised than Norma PH.
If so, any cape buffalo hunter using those 500-gr RN SN Weldcores (1.305" length)
will be exceeding recommended impact velocity at normal cape buffalo ranges.
1800 to 2200 fps window.

Still, the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" can beat that.
Use the 500-gr PP SN (1.394" length).
Add extra cannelure for 0.300" seating depth, 3.594" COL with 2.5" brass length.
Lee Factory Crimp over a greater powder charge than is in that Doubletap load.
Guaranteed to beat the .458 Lott.
The PP SN, though tougher than the RN SN, still has same recommended impact velocity, per Woodleigh: 1800 to 2200 fps.
I would rather load my .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" to about 2250 fps,
with lesser recoil and lower pressure than the .458 Lott can do for same velocity,
and probably better accuracy too.
That is why we are so amused by the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

The 3.700" load with the 544-grainer sized to .461" is right into the lands of .458 Winchester Flanged. Too tight a jam, too long a COL.
Same for the 3.600" COL in the .458 WIN Belted SAAMI chamber.

But the 486-grainer works at a length as long as 3.700", even at .461" sized,
due to sleeker ogive.



I'll get it worked out for some Powder-Coated-Selous&Quigley-duplicating ballistics with the 544-grainer and AA-5744.
We already have a good 2150 fps load with AA-2460 for that bullet at 3.475" COL in the .458 WIN.

Also desirable to have the 486-grainer spiffed up from 1400 fps to 2150 fps,
using both AA-5744 and AA-2460.

Rip ...

I also picked up a 35 Whelen case from my son's rifle and noticed the neck was split. I asked him this evening what was the deal and he says he get a lot of those from Double Tap ammo as they use their own brass. From first round factory ammo !

Maybe they got a bad batch ? I do know he absolutely loves the Buffalo Bore ammo in his Whelen and plans on using it this bear season.

All the wildcats are nice but you left off a couple of the most practical for DG:
The 500 AccRel, a shortened Rigby case with .510" bullets,
and the 500A2, a "belted-Rigby"/460Weatherby case blown out to .510". 
Both of these can outdo the 500NE in a bolt rifle. Pretty nice. 

Both could be highly recommended for those who want more of a stopping rifle than a 458. 

After using a fair number of other big bore cartridges up to the 500 Jeffery & 505 Gibbs, I realize just how good the 458 Win really is. It's not the biggest or most powerful but, like the 45 acp in handguns, it effectively get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... those who want more of a stopping rifle than a 458. 

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
After using a fair number of other big bore cartridges up to the 500 Jeffery & 505 Gibbs, I realize just how good the 458 Win really is. It's not the biggest or most powerful but, like the 45 acp in handguns, it effectively get the job done.

Rip ...

With the demise of the 500-gr TSX due to tumbling in target,
I see that a .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" is really all I need.
But what does need have to do with wanting a .458 W-W Super 3.8" ?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
After using a fair number of other big bore cartridges up to the 500 Jeffery & 505 Gibbs, I realize just how good the 458 Win really is. It's not the biggest or most powerful but, like the 45 acp in handguns, it effectively get the job done.

Well said.
I was thinking of getting a 45ACP if and when I would walk around in big bear country.

In Africa, camping in the bush, I actually prefer a scoped rifle at low-medium power so that one might "see" at night the hyena, et al., that might try to steal some meat. Besides, large handguns are more difficult to license. I shot a warthog once with a scoped 44 Redhawk loaded hot, but sold it decades ago. It hurt the ears.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
After using a fair number of other big bore cartridges up to the 500 Jeffery & 505 Gibbs, I realize just how good the 458 Win really is. It's not the biggest or most powerful but, like the 45 acp in handguns, it effectively get the job done.

On the rifle side of this statement, that is exactly what people must weigh. How much do they want to carry and how much do they want to use to get the job done?

There are no flies on the 458Win when loaded hot like a 458 Lott.
And for that matter, there are no flies on a 416Ruger in a lighter rifle.
How far does one take this? I think that most people following this thread would feel that a 375 Ruger would be giving up a bit too much for carrying a nice, light rifle. Still, the 375 is a workhorse of a caliber. All of these calibers are great.

I see the failing being the bullet choice and not the 45 ACP or the 1911.

Totally agree Sir Alf. (The Queen knighted you for your important work in all things classy arms). Don’t bring a 1911 with target rounds to a moose fight.

I used the 45 acp analogy as the old round is still a great and viable round for what it was intended. So is the 458 Win !

But while a large, slow bullet works wonders on human sized targets. You need something with a lot better penetration for massive critters like moose and bears.

Like A 9mm for instance

Like a 9mm pocket pistol with hardcast lead !

But seriously,
this is how Selous got away with hardened lead
540-grainers in his .461 Gibbs, for shooting
elephant, rhino, hippo, and buffalo.
1350 fps with BP and paper patch !
I bet he used same load on his first moose
in BC circa 1900,
and it did not bounce off the moose !
Nickudu files posted the article.

Rip ...

Penetration must be =>Target.
Target is vitals.
Vitals are CNS
Or CPS if you want to wait a bit for Blood pressure to go to Zero.

The old RN 230 grain .451 FMJ at 850 FPS will break a brain pan or spine on the 2 legged Varmints a very sure % of the time at fighting distance. It will also put sure leaking holes in the Cardio Pulmonary System at same ranges.
A .430 or 454 Hardcast SWC at 1200 FPS will do the same on much bigger and tougher Targets. Phil's experience says so will a .356 Hardcast SWC at 1100 FPS maybe plus a bit??
Experience and Logic should suffice to find what you want to shoot what with when and where.

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

quote:

Like A 9mm for instance

Yeah, 9.3x62 would do pretty nicely.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott owners are only getting the same velocities that up to date 458 Winchester users are getting but are unaware of it ?

According to ballisticians at Hornady, when loaded to equal pressures the Lott only generated 60 fps higher velocities.

Hell, even I can throw a 500 gr bullet 60 fps!