quote:

Pray tell ! What bullet type, weight, and MV from the .454 Casull works well on rhino ?

I saw the video of a DWWC friend busting his rhino with his .454 pistol, but but never thought to ask bullet and load specifics. The heavy 300 grain Winchester Supreme factory load jars my teeth in most revolvers, but the big scoped Taurus makes it easy to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr152.pdf

I remember reading that article.

Jawohl, 4sixteen, that is the spirit of THE MISSION !
Aggrandize the .458 WIN by any means possible !
So, in 1983, the .458 WIN was tops for bear protection.
Still is !
Part of the 1983 #1, top dog, winner status of the .458 WIN, beating all other rifles, was that the bullets of the day were not tough enough
for the .460 Wby.Mag.

Nowadays, I dare say a a 400 to 450-grain X-type bullet at about 2400 fps MV from the .458 WIN would be better than anything they had in 1983.

Rip ...

Interesting stuff. I used the win 510 sp extensively in the 458 Win Mag and 450 Ackley and found it to be a very expansive bullet. It held together but I recovered quite a few and I didn’t feel it had great penetration. When I lived in AK it was my fav bullet. Being this is a fantastic thread about the 458 Win Mag by the way, ill have to say growing up in AK the 458 Win Mag was my first “real gun” as a teenager, a chopped Win 70 pushfeed. I shot everything with it.

True. Very rarely do magazine articles cover the breadth of statistical analysis to be found scientifically sound on their conclusions. What you fail to see Sir Alf is that in the task of Mission Support, a correct conclusion is just fine for those of us working For The Mission. We would also welcome your scientific research that fully proves the 458WM is a terrific bear gun.

Phil seems to think it works well as a bear gun. I wonder who has more experience with 458's and big brownies on this forum?

While that old "study" by a couple of Forest service employees my have a few scientific flaws, it was at least an honest effort to rank the current off the shelf rifles and ammunition available for protection from bears.

It wasn't perfect and while writing for Rifle and Handloader magazines I considered doing a similar test with premium bullets but didn't get an enthusiastic response from the editor.
The new editor didn't want my 9mm bear story either as he claims their isn't any interest in using handguns for bear protection !

But after 40 years, and counting, I have amassed a large collection of bullets recovered from dead brown bears and used an awful lot of calibers to kill them, from the 9mm to the 505 Gibbs, and the more I used other calibers the more impressed I became with the 458 Win.

It will be with me again next week when our fall brown bear season begins on the Alaska Peninsula

The longer I see “science” manipulated to create “fact” to back someone’s bias, the more I appreciate experience and logic.

Alf reads the honest efforts of a couple of "Rangers" with boots on the ground wisdom and thinks this of it:



The illegibility ALF complains about is a few little typos such as one use of "properly" instead of "property" sprinkled amongst the
clear communication, well written.
Picky picky ALF.

Hell! I had a 99th percentile score on the Old MEDCAT "Science" section and I say it is a good study that addressed its purpose well:
Rate the common, over-the-counter guns & ammo options for bear protection,
for working stiffs and deer hunters venturing into bear country.
Maybe even some butterfly collectors and birdwatchers with common sense.
Not for the Timothy Treadwells of the world.
Not for Alf either.

That was 1983 and they did not have the "Super Bullets" we have now. Monolithic expanding bullets might have changed the rankings considerably,
for the lesser cartridges,
but the .458 WIN would then win even bigger,
by a much greater margin !

A bit of the wisdom from page 4 of 20:

... there is little reason to reduce the .460 if a .458 is available.

What a pearl!

Speaking only for myself here; I trust Freedom explicitly with the understanding that I also bear the complete responsibility for my free choices.
One of my free choices is to have read almost every post Alf has made on AR and through diligent study, I have learned much on terminal ballistics science. However I needed none of that knowledge to come to the responsible conclusion that the 458WM was and is a first rate large critter stomper. What this thread and RIP has done is utterly destroy the myth that it was not is not the same. This thread also explained the great benefits of the 458WM throating and how to take advantage of that design. That friends is The Mission.
Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Phil seems to think it works well as a bear gun. I wonder who has more experience with 458's and big brownies on this forum?

Phil has spoken, above.
I bet that study from 1983 did not dissuade him from building Ol'Ugly the .458 WIN in 1984.
He even followed their barrel length recommendation.
They recommended 20 to 22 inches.
He chose 21 inches.
Very scientific of Phil. The golden mean of wisdom.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
... Being this is a fantastic thread about the 458 Win Mag by the way,

Buy a buy a donkey !

I'll have to say growing up in AK the 458 Win Mag was my first “real gun” as a teenager, a chopped Win 70 pushfeed. I shot everything with it.

Rip ...

Repeated for emphasis:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
But after 40 years, and counting, I have amassed a large collection of bullets recovered from dead brown bears and used an awful lot of calibers to kill them, from the 9mm to the 505 Gibbs, and the more I used other calibers the more impressed I became with the 458 Win.

It will be with me again next week when our fall brown bear season begins on the Alaska Peninsula

Meehan and Thilenius: "A short-barreled, bolt-action .458 would be an excellent rifle for an experienced rifleman."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01: We would also welcome your scientific research that fully proves the 458WM is a terrific bear gun.

Good one.
We know he could not prove the opposite.

Rip ...

Alf, my take on the USFS paper is that it was done by a couple of interested and enthusiastic employees who also happened to be gun enthusiasts. It was not meant as a govt mandate, but simply to give novices, and managers, some viable means of choosing weapons for on the ground researchers.

For that purpose it was well done !
You have to admit, virtually all their recommendations beat a 9mm

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Here in Canada they ( ie the very same equivalent agencies ) have convinced us based on their "evidence" that bear spray will stop a charging grizzly !

Sad. Just because that bit of Canadian "science" is flawed, doesn't mean the thinking of Meehan and Thilenius is flawed.
Seems you are making the same A = B = C error.

Would you hold that to be true as well ?

See above. No knee jerking here.

or would you feel more at ease behind a cocked and locked 458 Win

Yes ! The .458 WIN is the perfect Kodiak deer rifle.

or some big ass revolver ? Especially in light of the fact you know how to use the latter properly ?

I do not like big asses on revolvers.

Rip ...

The study is a regular string of pearls of wisdom:

"Bears just want to be left in peace as much as, or more than, humans do.
Every once in a while, however, a bear just becomes mean.
It may have suffered an injury and be in pain, or it may be old and crotchety,
or for any number of reasons it may become aggressive.
Then, all your precautions may be useless, and this is the time when you need
that thorough familiarization and confidence in yourself and in your weapon."

That's from page 15 of this:

https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr152.pdf

Thanks again to member 4sixteen.



Rip ...

Only one in stock now.
Selling like hotcakes.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP
Good one buddy and yes I do !

Here in Canada they ( ie the very same equivalent agencies ) have convinced us based on their "evidence" that bear spray will stop a charging grizzly !

Would you hold that to be true as well ?

or would you feel more at ease behind a cocked and locked 458 Win or some big ass revolver ? Especially in light of the fact you know how to use the latter properly ?

ALF:

As a fellow Canadian, "they" have never, and never will, convince me that bear spray will stop even a black bear! And I've told them so! I know some of them read my blogs, and there I've expressed my view based on both logic and the record for all to see if they want to... It's politics, not science! My best hunting buddy for thirty years was a CO that well knew the politics behind the scenes. It's the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) that elects the Liberal-Trudeau Government with it's anti-gun, anti hunting agenda. But it has also been any Provincial government that controls hunting bears in particular, and wolf. And all of it is based on the feelings of the majority of city dwellers, many of whom are recent immigrants with no knowledge of historic Canadian hunting culture -- and who receive big Governmental handouts. The only thing politicians are concerned about is their own paycheck -- or financial security that is based on their re-election.

To ALL fellow Canadians -- our Federal election is only a month away! GET OUT AND VOTE AGAINST THE TRUDEAU-LIBERAL AGENDA!!!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So I live in BC just below the Alaska on the coast. The limited entry Moose hunting season is in full swing and somehow the stars have conspired for a very very good mushroom season ! Everyone and their dog are out in the woods picking Pine Mushrooms. It's big business in these parts !

Now it is illegal to hunt Grizzlies and should you actually shoot one in self defence you are subject to a huge enquiry that is not necessarily in your favour... no matter how justified.

All of the guys I hunt with use 7mm Rem Mags, 300's and 338's nothing bigger ! The mushroom pickers for the most go completely unarmed and those who go armed use Defender shotguns
(Carrying handguns is illegal in Canada )

Because of the ban on Grizzly hunting in our limited exposure and experience Grizzly encounters have increased. Last hunting season I encountered 6 different bears in the space of 10 days. Though way smaller than their Alaskan kin in no way less dangerous. We have a strong suspicion they are killing off not only moose in winter but also responsible for taking down black bears in our area.

The bears have also become habituated to the presence of gut piles left by hunters to the extent that it takes on average less than a night for a bear to be on a gut pile.

Now with all this in mind and the spirit of the thread I sought to find a source of a 458 Win rifle, any rifle in 458 win and or ammo and came up bone dry ! Managed to find on the other side of Canada 4 packs of 458 ammo at $ 144 for 20 rounds..... brass limited to 4 packs of 50 at another source also from the other side...... but no actual rifles for sale at all.

If you plan to build resources are very very limited and very expensive !

So whilst we expound on the wonders of this cartridge in my particular circumstance or someone who would like to join the fanclub actually finding a 458 is going to be a challenge.

ALF:

Go to tradeexcanada.com They have the Zastavas. At least 6 at last count -- but going fast. Their business in here in Ontario, but ship across Canada.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

It appears that I may have to bear some responsibility for the fast sales of those Zastavas in .458 as I promoted them in a recent post. Have done so a few times in recent years. Prior to that, they weren't moving very fast -- I've been keeping tabs on them for a number of years.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

$3455 for the Lott in a Weatherby!!

Compared to $795 for the Zastava that has a '98 action!

???

Wait a bit and Trade Ex Canada will soon be importing another bunch of .458 Winchesters. Maybe six months?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Those .458 Lott rifles are obscene ! Gun porn for the gullible !
Well, back to some redeeming social value: .458 WIN

Frankly, I think we have it covered with the Barnes monometal copper bullets and home-made lead bullets, for any soft point, expanding,
hunting and plinking uses.
Stockpiled North Fork bullets will be the spice of the steady diet.

Frankly, I think the .458/480-grain Hydro from Woodleigh is the best "solid" for the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" and the .458 W-W Super 3.8".
Sufficient penetration for any use, when needed,
and this "Cup-Point" made of brass gives it a little better performance as a solid than given by a copper cup point.
It may not be the deepest penetrating solid possible,
but it produces a wicked wound channel along the way and is as adequate for pass-throughs on elephant as anyone could wish for.

Plus, the nice cannelures for selecting desired COL.

On balance, better than anything North Fork or CEB as ever offered.
The only drawback to them is expense.
Use sparingly, only when needed.

Rip ...

Apparently there is some lead in that "free-machining" brass, so even if they have a cup point/hollow point on them,
and one might be tempted to use them for varmints and such if funds do not limit,
they are not advisable for hunting varmints in California.
This is from MidwayUSA, from whence it will cost almost $5 per bullet to get them delivered to Kentucky:

Using sambarman338's Method of Bullet Mensuration (MBM):



MBM is trusted only as a crude estimation.
Need Hydro in dummy in caliper.

Rip ...

Woodleigh manual of 2014:



I do find the Woodleigh Protected Point soft nose bullets very interesting also, for the .458 WIN.

The 400-grainer would be great in a 3.4" magazine box,
extra-cannelured for shallower seating out to about 3.395" in the usual SAAMI rifle with a box length of about 3.42".
Like with the GSC .458/400-gr HV ...

The .458/500-gr PP SN would be great seated long in the longer magazine boxes.
Sure beaters of the SAAMI .458 Lott with this bullet:
.458 WIN LongCOL
.458 W-W Super

Woodleigh bullets are shown below, including some Hydros with the plastic caps on them.
I do believe the bullet lengths shown for those include the cap:

I do like the powder choices in the Woodleigh manual: ADI/Hodgdon Extreme
Can't beat them except maybe with Western Powders AA-2230 and AA-2460:

There are no Hydro bullets in the .458 bullet tests in the following two links, but the testing protocol yielded very interesting comparative results among the bullets tested. Too bad we can no longer get North Fork bullets, but I'm very intrigued by the performance of the Kodiak bullets, especially for standard-length .458 WM reloads. Huge expansion and great penetration...it's like having your cake and eating it too.

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=26986

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=26987

I too am a fan of the Kodiak bullets in my 458.

Thinking the about action length discussion going on... The 400 Karamojo (375HH necked to 411 trimmed to 2.8”) with 405 Win bullets (roughly .6” tip to canalure bullets) will function in an 06 length action or a 3.4” max oal. Just screw on a new .411 tube from a useless 7 mag donor action and you are half way to medicine for lions, tigers and bears, Oh, my! 300@2500 would be a fine load for that. Maybe that load should be called the 405 T.R. AKA 405 T-Roo for the Millennial.

bcelliott, 458Win-
The Kodiak 450 Grain heavy jacket FMJ .458 bullet performed well for my 1886 .45-90 in Africa. With a MV of 2150 fps, it killed multiple Cape buffalo and stunned an ele with a frontal brain shot. Had to use NF and Punch bullets to finish off the ele; they did shoot through the head and into body.
PS this was a bullet testing PAC hunt.

Boomstick -
My .405 WCF(Win 1895 and Beretta DR) is also medicine for Cape Buff, bison etc; 400 grain Woodies at 2076 fps mv.

What is the 400 grain MV for the 400 Karamojo?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
bcelliott, 458Win-
The Kodiak 450 Grain heavy jacket FMJ .458 bullet performed well for my 1886 .45-90 in Africa. With a MV of 2150 fps, it killed multiple Cape buffalo and stunned an ele with a frontal brain shot. Had to use NF and Punch bullets to finish off the ele; they did shoot through the head and into body.
PS this was a bullet testing PAC hunt.

Boomstick -
My .405 WCF(Win 1895 and Beretta DR) is also medicine for Cape Buff, bison etc; 400 grain Woodies at 2076 fps mv.

What is the 400 grain MV for the 400 Karamojo?

The 400 Karamojo is yet to be born but I estimate it would top out at 400 at 2300 ft./s

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
There are no Hydro bullets in the .458 bullet tests in the following two links, but the testing protocol yielded very interesting comparative results among the bullets tested. Too bad we can no longer get North Fork bullets, but I'm very intrigued by the performance of the Kodiak bullets, especially for standard-length .458 WM reloads. Huge expansion and great penetration...it's like having your cake and eating it too.

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=26986

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=26987

Good Ol' Andy ! He used to post here.
We had a mutual interest in the .450 Dakota way back when.

I wonder if the sheer volume of his work with .458 bullets might persuade Alf of some usefulness of his bullet catching?

There are some gems in those near 30 pages.
I forgot about the 510-grain Winchester soft having a brass jacket "flashed" with copper.
But Andy strangely did not report on any 5-gallon nylon waterbucket scores with that one.
IIRC, he just showed a picture of an expanded one.

One very IMPORTANT thing to me is that he said the old Barnes .458/500-gr X-Bullet (pre-TSX) was too long to be stable IN TARGET !
Tumbled willy-nilly in the water buckets.

IIRC, he shot it from a .458/404 Imp belonging to Bill Steiger, with 1:10" twist,
but it had a .460" groove diameter.
Over-sized groove for the bullet ?
Nah, 0.002" over-size groove usually makes no difference for jacketed and monometal copper or bullets.
Not sure about monometal brass bullets.
No good with lead bullets.

The new Barnes .458/500-gr TSX (very near same length as old X-Bullet) is spooky accurate in a .458 WIN LongCOL at 2250 fps.
It's a bugholer, and almost as good at 2342 fps MV (3.780" COL, 24-7/8" barrel).

I am mentioned in the GSC FN section of that second link, and I was working in South Dakota when I got my .450 Dakota:

"George Hoffman told me before he passed away that he would never allow his clients to shoot FMJ bullets at buffalo. The chance of injuring another animal was too great. (It is not uncommon for several hundred buffalo to travel together). Dr. Ron Berry from South Dakota, shot a Botswana cape buffalo through the front leg (humerus), that perforated the heart with a .416 Rigby using a 385 gr. GS FN at 2,509 fps. Even though it had perforated the heaviest bone in a buffalo’s body, it still made a 1 ½ inch diameter entrance hole in the heart and a greater than 2 inch exit. The buffalo died within 40 yards of the shot. While some of the bullets I tested would probably destroy all or most of the heart, that is excellent performance from a monometal. The larger diameter .458 at a similar or greater velocity should be even more effective!"

Yep, a .458/400-grain monometal (GSC HV) at 2500 fps from a .458 WIN 3.4" might do quite well.
Or a 450-grain TSX at 2400 fps from a .458 WIN 3.6", or a .458/480-grain Hydro at 2300 fps.
Being careful about herd-shooting, of course.

Rip ...

Here is the passage from Andy Tillman about .458/500-gr X-Bullet tumbling after impact.
He says nothing about them being inaccurate:

"The 500 gr. Barnes X is 0.30 inch longer than a typical 510 gr. RNSP. That’s a lot! It is 0.168 - 0.177 inch longer than either of the next longest bullets. Even at a rotational velocity of 2,803 rps (2,334 fps)

HA! The .458 WIN LongCOL at 3.780" can do better than that.

from the 1-10” twist, the 500 gr. X bullet did not stabilize in the target. (This is equal to a velocity of 2,725 fps in a standard 1-14” twist!) It turned over 180 degrees, and lost two of its four X petals. The first bucket was not torn in two like the other bullets, just split. (A 450 gr. GS FN solid does more damage). The rear of the second can was also split open indicating a modest but deep temporary cavity. The two remaining X petals expanded normally, but were work hardened and ready to fracture. You can clearly see a fracture line where the remaining petals were bent backwards a second time as the bullet re-oriented base forward. I was curious to determine exactly when the X bullet turned over and fired it into a wooden “stop box” consisting of 72 one-foot square ¾ inch thick plywood boards. I normally use this stop box to recover FMJ bullets. (See related article). The Barnes X had completely turned over 180 degrees by the 23rd board and expanded to .701 caliber. It was recovered in the 28th board. A FMJ at the same velocity will penetrate 70 boards.

"None of this will disturb African hunters who accept the fact the X petals are almost always torn off the long, unstable monometals. Saeed al-Maktoum of the United Arab Emerate’s has killed over 100 cape buffalo with the 300 gr. Barnes X in his .375 x .404. Almost all of his recovered bullets are bent, show signs of tumbling and/or have lost their X petals. Despite the Barnes excellent reputation in Africa I don’t trust any bullet that is so unstable. Remember I shot the 500 gr. Barnes X in a custom .458 x .404 with 1-10” twist rather than a standard 1-14” twist, and was shooting 300 fps faster than possible in a .458 WM, and it still tumbled! Unless you are willing to order a 1-8 or 1-9” twist and push this bullet to maximum velocity in a .450 Dakota or .460 Weatherby, the .450 gr. Barnes X is a better choice. The 500 gr. X bullet had modest pressure despite its great length. Velocity and pressure appeared to be identical to the 500 gr. Swift in both the .458 x .404 and .450 Dakota."

I think Andy exaggerated a bit about Saeed's bullets almost always bending.
Oh wait, he said Saeed was using the .375/300-gr Barnes X-bullet in his .375/404, and had killed over a hundred buffalo.
Well he did use the old X-Bullet at one time, way back.
By now he has probably bagged over a thousand buffalo.
The Walterhog does better:

Long bullets unstable in water buckets, eh?
And unstable in a stack of wooden boards too?
The 480-grain Hydro is about 0.2" shorter than the 500-grain TSX.
And it is "hydrostatically stabilized."

Still, it is a bitter pill to swallow, since the .458/500-grain TSX in a .458 WIN LongCOL, whether 3.6" or 3.8", whips a .458 Lott so good.

Kodiak Bonded Core Bulletts
9978 Crazy Horse Drive
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: (907) 789-3834

I'll look for them next time I am in Alaska.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
bcelliott, 458Win-
The Kodiak 450 Grain heavy jacket FMJ .458 bullet performed well for my 1886 .45-90 in Africa. With a MV of 2150 fps, it killed multiple Cape buffalo and stunned an ele with a frontal brain shot. Had to use NF and Punch bullets to finish off the ele; they did shoot through the head and into body.
PS this was a bullet testing PAC hunt.

Boomstick -
My .405 WCF(Win 1895 and Beretta DR) is also medicine for Cape Buff, bison etc; 400 grain Woodies at 2076 fps mv.

What is the 400 grain MV for the 400 Karamojo?

Airplanes, ships, what now, boomstick's wildcats to support THE MISSION?

I used to be a wildcatter.
Now I am a .458 WINNER.
The Good Ship Winchester has come in:



Rip ...

Woodleigh's ship has come in too, on the Hydro tide.

There have been no rumors of the Woodleigh Hydros being too soft.

I might have figured out why there is no .458/550-grain Hydro, nor even a .458/500-gr Hydro.
I do trust that the .458/480-grainer will do.

Rip ...