At the end of PART I, Jack Lott eats humble pie, instead of making jumble pie of history:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton
Aha, something else that I can use for those who look down their noses at using lever action rifles for DG!
My .458 MiniMag (45-90/.458 2.4) has taken a leopard with a .458 300 grain Nosler PP at 2200 fps MV; DRT without a twitch. Cat was eating a farmer's goat while lying on soft sand and the sand allowed the expanded bullet to stay inside the the cats hide and be recovered; beautiful expansion.
We had loaded the 300 grainers to 2600 fps, but at that velocity they over expanded on the hanging dead sheep used for testing targets.

Jolly good show!
You need to try the flat-nosed version of the Barnes 300-grain TSX and see how fast you can go with that one.

So, I knew the 1886 was a proven ele, buff, and leopard gun and now it has the specs to be a lion gun.

Looking forward to comparing the average specs of a gun for hippo (already know that .454 Casull is all that needed to take a rhino).

Pray tell ! What bullet type, weight, and MV from the .454 Casull works well on rhino ?

Please, no comments from snowflakes about a steel crescent butt plate hurting the shooter. That only shows that you do not know how to mount such a rifle.

I have one of those BACO/MIROKU WIN 1886 "Short Rifles" with 20" barrel, but .45-70 Gov.
So, come to think of it, I need to try those Lever-action 300-gr TSX too.



Rip ...

Back from a week of Pappy duty with the grandchildren, it may take me a while to catch up with this thread ...

I guess we've gone over this before, RIP, but the Mission won't mind if I ask again:

Considering the perceived extra cost of .45-90 brass, would rethroating my .45-70 to a long-COL version make just as much sense as rechambering to the longer case?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Sambarman,
Yes, the 1886 45-70 can be converted to 45-90 with a little mod to the load mechanism and a chamber extension.
Send me a PM upon your return and I will put you in touch with folks that know the details.

Thanks CR, stand by for a PM.

So, nowadays we can easily do 2200 fps with 500-grainers in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 24" barrel.
That is more than the initial design goal of Jack Lott for his .458 Lott: 500-grainer at 2150 fps.

Nowadays we have better powders AND better bullets.

I am enthralled with the idea of a cheap substitute for load workup and target practice imitating the original Nitro Express standard:
.458/480-grainer.

First, 480-ish-grain hardcast, gas-checked, powder-coated bullets will stand in for the .458/480-grain Hydro at velocities up to 2150 fps MV.

Then the homemade .458/480-grain "X-TSX" will be used for velocities of 2200 to 2300 fps.

I have over 600 of the 500-grain TSX to chop for loads to simulate the .459/474-grain Hydro.
I got 600 each of the 500-grain TSX and 450-grain TSX CHEAP from a custom loader going out of business.
I now know the 500-grain TSX is too long for stability after impact in game,
no matter for anything up through .460 Weatherby.
Maybe a .458/50 BMG with 1:1" twist could make it reliable in water, wood and flesh,
if the MV and RPS were high enough ???
No. Impossible.

I am also enthralled with the way this 480-grain X-TSX fills the throat of a SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. chamber, if you crimp it on the last/5th groove
for about 3.57" COL.
Perfect in a .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" !

A custom-made bullet might duplicate this exactly except for a cup point on the meplat,
and whatever few thou longer or shorter is needed to make exactly 480 grains at the weigh-in.
That would be a champion bullet !



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Back from a week of Pappy duty with the grandchildren, it may take me a while to catch up with this thread ...

I guess we've gone over this before, RIP, but the Mission won't mind if I ask again:

Considering the perceived extra cost of .45-90 brass, would rethroating my .45-70 to a long-COL version make just as much sense as rechambering to the longer case?

Hi Paul, welcome back you bell ringer, thanks.
We have been typing simultaneously again on opposite sides of the globe.

Yes !
Bob Mitchell has already done this, you can find load data at his blog.

www.bigbores.ca

A .45-70 Gov. Long Throated = ".45-70 LT" by Bob's christening.
It would be to the .45-90 2.4" as the .458 WIN is to the .458 Lott.
Pretty darn good comparison.
Even if you changed only the throat,
and used only the COL allowed by the unaltered 1886 action,
you will be increasing effective capacity and reducing actual pressures (or increasing velocity for same pressure with handloading),
hopefully with same or better accuracy.

In a single shot rifle, the .45-70 LT could surely beat a .45-90 2.4" with short throat,
as surely as a .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" beats a SAAMI .458 Lott.

Rip ...

Thanks Rip, hopefully CR can put me on to the means of doing that throat extension.

I haven't read the Finn Aagaard article yet but I approve of his peep sight. As you may recall, I'm a bit wary of the Lyman 66 on my 375 Winchester since my 12-year-old son tripped and bent it down on the receiver. When I get a setting I'm confident with I might epoxy a small block on the r/h side to stop that happening again.

Paul,
Rip knows and speaks truth on 45-90 and 458 Mag.
And he said it more precisely than I could.

Leaving soon on a hunt, but sent you PM explaining that I plan to have added info for you upon return with much meat for freezer.

For lesser game, varmints, and even wingshooting:

450-grainers (several) at 2400 fps
400-grainers (several) at 2500 fps
350-grain TSX at 2700 fps
300-grain TSX at 2800 fps
Single or triple roundball
Birdshot

500-grain cup and core and FMJ OK at up to 2300 fps in a 24" barrel: .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6".

Rip ...

I need a bid from a machinist for removing the tips of 500-grain TSX bullets.

Rip ...

It might be cheaper to buy a used lathe and do it yourself. It is not difficult for a smarty pants like yourself. Also harbor freight has a 12” bench top disc sander for $170.
Better yet, just design your own bullet rom scratch and get a programmer to write you the cnc program and shit out a few thousand.

I wonder what kind of expansion is attained from a sanded off TSX at various impact speeds?

My guess is that at some point a person would pretty much duplicate the performance of the hydro at less than half the cost. Might be nice to find a point, maybe a couple prototypes at 1/16" difference(?), producing modest yet deadly expansion to 1.2x-bore "flat" and a more-restricted full-bore "flat" solid performance (.42" and .46", respectively in 416Ruger and 458Win). Barnes are you listening? Maybe produce something at 365 grains in .416" and 444 grains in .458" that produce flat-nose bore-width "solids".

We need some good expansion testing à la Michael McCourry.
The testing would provide some good comparison for us-ins that might want an inexpensive do-all TSX in .416" when in our 70's and on SocSec.

Since I'm more of a buffalo-guy than "ele", I would even be happy with the above expanded flat-point solids at around 330 grains and 2600 fps muzzle (416) or 400 grains and 2450fps (458).

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
...
My guess is that at some point a person would pretty much duplicate the performance of the hydro at less than half the cost ...

Would that achieve the same wound-channels as the 'hollow-ground' Hydro's nose?

Hydro wound channel questions: Pretty much depend on the theory of Cavitation as I understand it. So; I don't know of a flattened TSX would replicate it or not. Matters not to me as the question would be "will the Flattened TSX do the job of penetrating while expanding enough to satisfy the task" or not. Only way to tell that is shoot some stuff. Examine the results. Great idea though RIP! I applaud your creativity.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It might be cheaper to buy a used lathe and do it yourself ...

That is what I was afraid of. I'll be window shopping at Harbor Freight.
I did try one of their Mini Chop Saws and got one bullet out of eight that came out near perfect with one chop: 480.7 grains and true flat/90*
The rest of them are going to need filing in the rubber-jawed vise.
And the cheap little blade gets dull, clogged with copper after 4 bullets.
Yes I have been through two blades already.

Better yet, just design your own bullet rom scratch and get a programmer to write you the cnc program and shit out a few thousand.

I won't do that until I convert 632 more of the 500-grain TSX bullets into 480-grain X-TSX bullets.
Maybe chuck the bullets in a drill press and press the spinning bullet down onto a flat file, then a smooth stone?

A bench disc sander and setting up a stop might be your best friend.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I wonder what kind of expansion is attained from a sanded off TSX at various impact speeds?

My guess is that at some point a person would pretty much duplicate the performance of the hydro at less than half the cost.

Remember Norbert Hansen's "Super Penetrator" bullet ?
It got a lot of mileage here years before the Woodleigh Hydro.
It had a shape like my X-TSX, but with a flat steel disk on the meplat,
like sticking a thumb tack on the nose of the X-TSX.
That was the original super-cavitator.

Might be nice to find a point, maybe a couple prototypes at 1/16" difference(?), producing modest yet deadly expansion to 1.2x-bore "flat" and a more-restricted full-bore "flat" solid performance (.42" and .46", respectively in 416Ruger and 458Win). Barnes are you listening? Maybe produce something at 365 grains in .416" and 444 grains in .458" that produce flat-nose bore-width "solids".

Great ideas. Sort of what I was thinking.

We need some good expansion testing à la Michael McCourry.

The Iron WaterBoard Buffalo might be brought out of pasture.
First step would be just to line up some 5-gallon, nylon water buckets.
Then a stack of 3/4" plywood squares 70 boards deep.
Andy Tillman gave us the results for the .458/500-grain TSX in those media,
from a 1:10" twist at 2330-ish-fps from a .458/404J variant: Tumbling on impact.
Since I got the same 500-grain TSX up to 2342 fps MV from Chimera WinCZechster with 1:14"-twist, 24-7/8"-long barrel,
+2300 fps will be easy with the same bullet cut shorter and lightened by 20 grains.


The testing would provide some good comparison for us-ins that might want an inexpensive do-all TSX in .416" when in our 70's and on SocSec.

As you get older with your .458 WIN, just lighten the bullet and forget about the .416-caliber rifles.
500-grain hollowpoint copper monometal is just too long for any rifle or young whippersnapper pulling the trigger.
The bullets are stable in air but not after impact in a thousand-fold denser media.
Gyroscopic spin might help keep the bullet straight during the transition, like in non-normal angle of attack,
but once it is inside the critter, spin is of little importance.
Shoulder stabilization from a flat nose and a shorter tail to slap around and drag in the tail of the bubble is then very important.

480-grains for a copper monometal hollowpoint or brass solid seems to be the proper weight to make short enough to be stable.

That is a starting point.
Get fancy with lighter bullets at higher velocity and variations on the meplat: FN, Cup, Hollow Point.
That is complicated.
The geezer going for lighter bullet weight for recoil reduction might stumble on the right combination.
The obsolete 400-grain X-Bullet was said to perform better than any of the cup&core 500-510-grain softpoints.
And it penetrated as deeply as the A-Square 465-grain Dead Tough in Finn Aagaard's tests.

Maybe I dish out the nose of the 480-grain X-TSX with a large drill bit until I turn it into a
465-grain Cup-X-TSX?
That 0.125" x 0.350" remnant hole with quadrant skiving in the nose will be nice for centering the Cup.
Then Bubba Gunnwerkes could release two new designs to the trade:
480-grain X-TSX
465-grain Cup-X-TSX.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
...
My guess is that at some point a person would pretty much duplicate the performance of the hydro at less than half the cost ...

Would that achieve the same wound-channels as the 'hollow-ground' Hydro's nose?

Uh ... maybe?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Hydro wound channel questions: Pretty much depend on the theory of Cavitation as I understand it. So; I don't know of a flattened TSX would replicate it or not. Matters not to me as the question would be "will the Flattened TSX do the job of penetrating while expanding enough to satisfy the task" or not. Only way to tell that is shoot some stuff. Examine the results. Great idea though RIP! I applaud your creativity.

Buy a donkey ! Buy a buy a donkey !

It now occurs to me that the 450-grain TSX is the way to go for sure in a copper monometal hollowpoint.
Able to form an aerodynamic shape for a decent BC and not be too long, stable after impact.
Yep that is it.
450-grainers are the way to go in any sporting .458-caliber rifle.
Even a .460 Weatherby with 1:1" twist could not make the 500-grain TSX stable after impact.

I feel a "450 Grainer Triad" coming on.

Rip ...

Barnes Bullets needs to get rid of the 500-grain TSX and make this the new line-up of bullet weights in .458-caliber:

300
350
400
450

That makes much more sense than current line-up:
300 350 450 500

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A bench disc sander and setting up a stop might be your best friend.

I am headed to Harbor Freight to check them out.
A jig of some sort to hold the bullet square to cutting/grinding/filing/sanding/stoning surface is the real trick.

Rip ...

You have a jig to hold the bullet and a guide 90 degrees to face with a stop to have repeatable and accurate consistency.

Nope. or yes that will work too. As you prefer.
A Trim to length die made from something harder than the hubs of hell. Drop the bullet in, cut, sand down to the die. or hold the die with the bullet inserted and sand or file away.

Product #: 326474 | Shipping Weight: 1.200 lbs
Lee Carbide 3-Die Set 500 S&W Magnum
$33.99
might fit the bill. Use the decapping stem for an adjustment point. I did not check the diameter, figured a .458 will fit into a .50, but RIP will!!

I agree with re-introduction of a 400 grain, in the TSX form with a bc in the .4's.
As good as the 350 maybe, I cannot develop an interest in a less than 400 grain bullet in the 458 Win or Lott.
I continue to hold on to my 458 Winchester and Lott, thinking that Barnes might resurrect the 400. But, my interest has waned considerably. That interest has been focused on the 416 Ruger and Remington which the 350 grainers are near perfect, in the TSX and TTSX.

I have some factory loaded 400 grain Federal Trophy Bonded 458 Winchester, which I think would be more than sufficient for anything in North America. But, I am less than inspired by their advertised velocity of 2250 fps. I thought years ago they "advertised" 2300 something FPS for this weight.
Swift, per their Number 2 reloading manual, for their 400 A-Frame show upper 2300's and 2410 fps for maximum loads.

Seems as Barnes has no desire to produce a 400 grain TSX. I suppose that I shall be thankful for the 416, 350 TSX and TTSX and ride on the 416 bandwagon.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Barnes Bullets needs to get rid of the 500-grain TSX and make this the new line-up of bullet weights in .458-caliber:

300
350
400
450

That makes much more sense than current line-up:
300 350 450 500

Rip ...

quote:

Barnes Bullets needs to get rid of the 500-grain TSX and make this the new line-up of bullet weights in .458-caliber:

300
350
400
450

That makes much more sense than current line-up:
300 350 450 500

Rip ...

Agreed!
The 450 grain .458 bullets shoot well in my 45-90 and so they should shoot even better in the .458 Win Mag. These include Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps, NF and Punch solids at just over 2000 fps. The penetration with these has been very good, so I have not needed to try other bullets.

And yes, I do have a supply of loaded Kodiaks and boxes of NF bullets. The Punch may now be available in only 400 grain weights.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You have a jig to hold the bullet and a guide 90 degrees to face with a stop to have repeatable and accurate consistency.

No proper disk or belt sanders with jig found.
Making do with a 6" chop saw with aluminum oxide cut-off wheel:



It has an "adjustable fence with 45-degree miter" which is a serviceable "jig" for my purposes.
But there is a lot of flex and wiggle in the mechanism.
Cutting true with this is a "performance art" !

Out of 16 bullets chopped so far, one was good enough to save, as cut, for use as a template: 480.7 grains and 1.447".
To nearest grain weight after filing was done I had:
Seven 480-grainers
Three @ 479-gr
One @ 478-gr
One @ 477-gr
Two @ 476-gr
The template is a 481-grainer by my rounding to nearest grain.
There is only one bullet below that was exactly 480.0 grains, and it was loaded into the feed dummy:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Product #: 326474 | Shipping Weight: 1.200 lbs
Lee Carbide 3-Die Set 500 S&W Magnum
$33.99
might fit the bill. Use the decapping stem for an adjustment point. I did not check the diameter, figured a .458 will fit into a .50, but RIP will!!

Got a set of those but the 45 ACP die is looking to be a better try, by cutting about a quarter inch off the top of an FL die, and using a Lee bullet sizer pusher rod to raise the bullet into the die.
Thanks for the suggestion.
I end up with the too-light bullets when I go wild with the filing.
That template bullet above will be used as a try-bullet in a homemade trim die.
Will help me square the meplats without making them too short and light.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
I agree with re-introduction of a 400 grain, in the TSX form with a bc in the .4's.
As good as the 350 maybe, I cannot develop an interest in a less than 400 grain bullet in the 458 Win or Lott(CENSORED) ...

... Seems as Barnes has no desire to produce a 400 grain TSX. I suppose that I shall be thankful for the 416, 350 TSX and TTSX and ride on the 416 bandwagon.

The old Barnes 400-gr X-Bullet, BC = 0.457, no cannelure, make your own cannelure.

Barnes 400-gr XFB-Cannelured (one cannelure) claimed same BC of 0.457 .

The 400-gr Woodleigh PP SN has a BC of 0.340 and recommended impact velocity of 1900 to 2500 fps.

Woodleigh 325-gr Hydro (uncapped) BC = 0.150
Woodleigh 400-gr Hydro (uncapped) BC = 0.160
Woodleigh 450-gr Hydro (capped) BC = 0.250
Woodleigh 480-gr Hydro (capped) BC = 0.260

I wish I could still recommend the 400-grain GSC HV with a BC of 0.372, and +2500 fps, but last I heard the future was uncertain there.

Swift A-Frame 400-grainer BC = 0.258

Barnes Original Cup&Core 400-grainer has BC of 0.389, but is too soft for a .458 WIN top load.

Barnes Buster 400-grainer BC = 0.242

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
The 450 grain .458 bullets shoot well in my 45-90 and so they should shoot even better in the .458 Win Mag.

These include Kodiak FMJ at 2150 fps, NF and Punch solids at just over 2000 fps. The penetration with these has been very good, so I have not needed to try other bullets.

And yes, I do have a supply of loaded Kodiaks and boxes of NF bullets. The Punch may now be available in only 400 grain weights.

The monometal 450-grainer of today is the new 500-grainer of yore.
2400 fps with a 450-grainer is easy in a .458 WIN.
Might as well call the 350-grain TSX the 400-grainer of yore.
Since +2700 fps with that 350-grain TSX is easy, its BC of 0.278 might be forgiven.
Some claim that the BC is not that low.
The old slick-sided 350-grain X-Bullet was claimed to have BC of 0.402

Rip ...

Going with a 450-grain Triad of bullets in the .458 WIN-SAAMI and .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" might make the most sense for monometal bullets.
But that would not be as good for THE MISSION as messing around with 400-grainers then 480-grainers before settling on 450-grainers.

Rip ...

You can Cut long and file perfect Sir Rip. The Mission is worth the effort. Winter is coming with the time indoors available. Fireplace, Firewater, File. The Triple F of happiness. All for The Mission.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
You can Cut long and file perfect Sir Rip. The Mission is worth the effort. Winter is coming with the time indoors available. Fireplace, Firewater, File. The Triple F of happiness. All for The Mission.

What a great idea ! A few shots of Buffalo Trace to ease the tedium.

The "JK" brand file "Made in India" is highly recommended. But Bubba is always on the lookout for a better bastard file.

Rip ...

RIP, you are a bubba genius.
That is like being the tallest midget, but still quite something.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP, you are a bubba genius.
That is like being the tallest midget, but still quite something.

Nicest thing anyone ever said to me.

Tears of joy.

Rip ...

Since I am proven apprentice on many things Bubba:
Rip, put a coat of fingernail polish on the top of that die, you will know on the first stroke of hitting it. Cheap, replaceable, and repeatable.
I'm available for sharing that Buffalo Trace...

BTW: Use Green, as that is the color of envy, for those who did not think of this For The Mission!
6' 2" midget apprentice Regards,
Fury01

Time to go load some 480-ish-grainers for Goldie and Bobbarrella to try.

Cast .459"/486-grain GC-PCP-SRN
and the .461"/544-grain GC-PCP-FN sized down to .459" just for Goldie the .458 WIN Flanged Ruger No. 1 with .457" grooves.

Cast .461"/486-grain GC-PCP-SRN
and the .458"/480-grain XTSX-BB (Buffalo Buster) for Bobbarrella the .458 WIN LongCOL CZ 550 Magnum with .459" grooves.
We already have a good 544-grain cast bullet load for Bobbarrella with AA-2460 at about 2150 fps.
So 2150 fps with the 486-grain cast bullet should be plumb tropical.

I will use AA-2460, going for "tropical" loads with all of the above.

Recall that the 500-grain TSX did 2342 fps MV in Chimera WINCzechster with 24-7/8" barrel, with AA-2230, and 3.780" COL.

Using the 480-grain XTSX-BB should surely top that for velocity at COL of about 3.570": +2350 fps with AA-2230.
But I am thinking I want to stop at 2300 fps with the slightly slower-burning, lower-pressure, AA-2460 just to be tropical about it.
480-grain Buffalo Buster in .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" at about 3.575" COL: 2300 fps MV.

Rip ...