quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott owners are only getting the same velocities that up to date 458 Winchester users are getting but are unaware of it ?

I was ! The Hornady ammo billed at 2300 fps with 500-grainer in the .458 Lott, soft and solid, just straddled the 2200 fps mark by a few fps + and -, in a 25" barrel by my chronographing.

According to ballisticians at Hornady, when loaded to equal pressures the Lott only generated 60 fps higher velocities.

NO, NOT EVEN THAT FAVORABLE FOR THE .$%* LOTT.
It is more like 50 fps when the Lott is loaded to +2000 psi greater pressure than the .458 WIN.
The published data in an article by Ross Seyfried (RIFLE #204 Nov-Dec 2002, pp 22-26) caused him to have a nervous breakdown.
His reaction formation was to DENY THE .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM three times before the cock crowed.

In the lucid interval before he "lost it" Seyfried was rational enough to write this:

"I believe we can point our fingers at a few possibilities.
First, there is the common syndrome of wildcats, even established wildcats, being overloaded by modern scientific pressure standards.
Next, there is the probability that the Hornady pressure barrel is not only extra, extra tight,
but also it may well have an unrealistically short throat.
The combination would result in excess pressure with very normal loads.
Also, the cases are Hornady Manufacture, a brand that has never been used before in the Lott.
This is a big wild card, because the internal capacity may be much different than the historic cases we are used to."

Seyfried had earlier stated:

"The ballistician tells me he worked to a maximum of 62,000 psi (electronic piezo)
and that the barrel was a Wiseman and nearly identical to the company's .458 Winchester pressure barrel.
The largest surprise was that he was only able to wring 2,250 fps out of the Lott with one powder, Winchester 748.
Maximum data for several other powders is within a few tenths of a grain of their maximum for the .458 Winchester."

Hell, even I can throw a 500 gr bullet 60 fps!

Seyfried was confused because he failed to take into account that the original "wildcat" .458 Lott
had the remnant .458 Winchester Magnum throat.
Jack's reamer of 1971 was designed for that effect, with a non-cutting belt stop for hand reaming,
to make a .458 WIN chamber accept 2.8" brass.
Suddenly, in 2002 the SAAMI .458 Lott was indeed short-throated by comparison: SAAMI spec.
The Hornady brass is a close match to W-W Super brass in the .458 Winchester Magnum.
The Hornady .458 Lott brass is not aberrant.
The only explanation for the ABSOLUTE SUPERIORITY of the .458 WIN over the .458 Lott
when both are loaded to the SAME COL AND PRESSURE:
THROATING DIFFERENCES.


My first turn in the University of Kentucky Medical Center ER
as a medical student "clerk" I saw them wheel in a stretcher
with a bluish-ashen-colored white man.
He was a big ol'boy. Dead On Arrival.
He had argued with his little brother.
His little brother had a .45 ACP equalizer.
His little brother put a 230-gr FMJ hardball smack through the middle of Big Ol'boy's forehead.
Nice, clean, round entrance wound of about .45-caliber.
X-ray showed the bullet resting at the back of his skull, cracked a bit there too.
Man skulls, even the thicker ones, are a bit less of an impediment to the .45 ACP than moose skulls.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The result is predictable !

To boot if you made the case 3 inches long as the African express the gain in velocity is not much more. In fact it is a scenario of ever diminishing returns to the point where there would actually be a charge mass where velocity does not go up any further!

Losses of energy to the system increases but not translational energy !

Judging by the poor results obtained, I bet they have a short and tight throat on that .458 African Express 3-Inch.



That is why I always laughed about the .458 African Express 3".
Since the .458 Lott name is taken by SAAMI (they sure screwed the pooch on that one),
the original .458 Lott wildcat has to be called something else.
Thus the .458 Winchester-Watts Super is named.
But it must be used in a 3.8" magazine-length rifle to be called the .458 W-W Super.
By RIP homologation, the maximum COL of the .458 W-W Super is 3.8000".
The SAAMI .458 Lott suffers from lack of room for bullet noses when chambered in rifles with 3.6" magazine length.
Just like the .458 African Express 3" is crowded when housed in 3.8" magazine box.
Not so for the SAAMI .458 WINchester Magnum in a 3.4" magazine box.
Not so for a .458 WIN LongCOL in a 3.6" magazine box.
Not so for a .458 W-W Super in a 3.8" box (which is on avearge about 3.85" for inside box length,
in the true magnum actions, +4.0" in an MRC M1999 PH).

Rip ...

4sixteen, that's a good point about barrel twist differences. All variables that can be held constant in a comparison should be.

I'll throw this into the mix for THE MISSION: I've fired quite a bit of Doubletap factory ammo, at least in handgun cartridges, and for me, it was consistently lower in velocity than what the box said. Some searching online yielded others reporting the same--lower than claimed velocities with Doubletap. I've not had the same problem with Buffalo Bore ammunition. If I had to wager based on my experience, I'd say a typical chrono reading with Doubletap handgun ammo will show about 75-100 fps slow compared to what is written on the box. Caveat: I haven't chronoed DT rifle ammo, so I'd be interested if anyone with a CZ .458 Lott could chrono this 500 grain DT load.

A sample calculation...
Given: (but not yet proved) DT 500 grain .458 Lott load is 75 fps slower than the 2350 fps claimed, and thus is moving out at 2275 fps;
Given: proven SAAMI .458 Win Mag 500 grain loads can move out at 2200 fps;

Then: 2275-2200 fps = 75 fps to the Lott. Seems about right.

4sixteen,
Thank you for pointing this out.
I had not thought to look at the SAAMI Velocity and pressure data, though I have it printed and filed on the shelf, from 2015.

You misrepresent the facts, however, in your presentation of this.
I clarify.

FACT: Doubling the twist rate from 1:14" to 1:7" has less than one-half of one percent effect in increasing pressure or decreasing velocity.
Pressure and velocity differences from the 1:14" to 1:10" twist rate increase would be on the order of magnitude of one-quarter of one percent.

Delta pressure = plus 150 psi
Delta velocity = minus 5.5 fps = -6 fps, rounded to nearest fps.
INSIGNIFICANT.

FACT: The SAAMI Velocity and Pressure data you show:

.458 Lott:
500-grain bullet *** 62,500 psi *** 2,150 fps: The SAAMI recommended velocity (15' instrumental) for the use of ammunition producers at the time of manufacture.

.458 Winchester Magnum:
500-grain bullet *** 60,000 psi *** 2,240 fps recommended by the secondary manufacturing standard and only *** 2,025 fps by primary manufacturing standard
15' instrumental velocities.

Add about 10 fps to get MV:
2250 fps for the .458 WIN, 2160 fps for the .458 Lott.

FACT: With a bullet long enough to allow 3.600" COL in the .458 WIN,
and there are many,
the .458 WIN can deliver slightly higher velocity AND slightly lower pressure than the .458 Lott loaded with same bullet also at 3.600" COL.
Or load them both to the same 62,500 psi MAP and the .458 WIN at 3.6" COL definitively wins the velocity event.
That may require using more powder in the .458 WIN than possible in the .458 Lott, but by increasing it's COL to 3.600",
it has effectively increased its case capacity to same case capacity as a .458 Lott with 2.8" maximum length brass and SAAMI 3.600" maximum COL.
The tight tolerances of the .458 Lott chamber make the 2.8" brass length less safe than using the maximum 2.5" brass length in a .458 WIN chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
ANSI Z299.4-2015 test barrels compared for the 458 Lott and 458 WM. Note the 458 Lott barrel twist rate is 1:10 whereas the 458 WM barrel is 1:14. Much greater frictional loss with the faster twist barrel affecting velocity and pressure negatively.

The larger case capacity of the 458 Lott provides higher muzzle velocities when an equal comparison is made against the 458 WM. As in the case of 500gr Doubletap ammo used in test rifles having the same 24" barrel length and 1:14 twist rate (CZ550). Fact : the 458 Lott because of its greater case capacity has a 200 fps muzzle speed advantage over the 458 WM with a 500gr bullet.

BULLSCAT !

Nice graphics.
Thank you for supporting THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
4sixteen, that's a good point about barrel twist differences ...

Let us not cry over the spilled milk of 6 fps lost or 150 psi gained by handicapping of a .458 Lott with 1:10" twist.

Given: proven SAAMI .458 Win Mag 500 grain loads can move out at 2200 fps;

Jawohl, and better: 2250 fps at 60,000 psi and 3.340" max COL, according to SAAMI, with a 24" long, 1:14" twist barrel.

Compare that to the .458 Lott: 2160 fps at 62,500 psi and 3.600" max COL, according to SAAMI, with a 24" long, 1:10" twist barrel.

Jack's wildcat was ruined by SAAMI !
His favorite for building the original .458 Lott was a BRNO ZKK-602 according to Ross Seyfried.
I hope Ross was not just making that up.
If true, rifles like Jack Built could be called .458 W-W Supers nowadays.

I need to get a 24"-long, 1:10"-twist, .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" barrel.
With that "handicap" the .458 WIN would Whip the .458 Lott with same barrel.
Whip it good !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott owners are only getting the same velocities that up to date 458 Winchester users are getting but are unaware of it ?

According to ballisticians at Hornady, when loaded to equal pressures the Lott only generated 60 fps higher velocities.

Hell, even I can throw a 500 gr bullet 60 fps!

The entire thread summed up in one statement!

Shootacow ... are you paying attention?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott owners are only getting the same velocities that up to date 458 Winchester users are getting but are unaware of it ?

According to ballisticians at Hornady, when loaded to equal pressures the Lott only generated 60 fps higher velocities.

Hell, even I can throw a 500 gr bullet 60 fps!

The entire thread summed up in one statement!

Shootacow ... are you paying attention?

So if I shoot the WinMag while driving 41 mph I’ll get the same velocity

quote:

So if I shoot the WinMag while driving 41 mph I’ll get the same velocity

Sounds like a Texas feral hog hunt to me! Really!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott or 450 Ackley owners load them back to 458 Win ballistics?

I wonder what percentage of 458 Lott owners are only getting the same velocities that up to date 458 Winchester users are getting but are unaware of it ?

According to ballisticians at Hornady, when loaded to equal pressures the Lott only generated 60 fps higher velocities.

Hell, even I can throw a 500 gr bullet 60 fps!

The entire thread summed up in one statement!

Shootacow ... are you paying attention?

NO NO NO !
Too generous to the .458 Lott !

SAAMI recommends that manufacturers of .458 Lott ammunition expect 2150 fps with 500-grainer at 62,500 psi.

SAAMI recommends that manufacturers of .458 WIN ammunition expect 2240 fps with 500-grainer at 60,000 psi.

Those are 5-yard instrumental velocities.

90 fps advantage to the .458 WIN even when it is handicapped by lower MAP and shorter COL.

The 1:10" twist barrel is an insignificant handicap for the .458 Lott.
The big handicap of the .458 Lott-SAAMI is the throat.
Another handicap of the .458 Lott-SAAMI is crowding it into a 0.2" longer magazine box with 0.3" longer brass.

The .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" breaks the chains of the .458 WIN-SAAMI-3.34": MAP and COL
The .458 W-W Super 3.8" breaks the chains of the .458 Lott-SAAMI-3.6": Throat and COL

The only advantage of the .458 W-W Super 3.8" over the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6",
comes with use of very short bullets needing longer brass to grip the bullet,
or very long and pointy bullets needing the extra magazine length.
Their chambers both have the same breech-face-to-land-contact distance.

The .458-Lott-SAAMI is dead.

Now, if we could get shootacow to chime in with a ring of THE MISSION bell,
that would be good for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So if I shoot the WinMag while driving 41 mph I’ll get the same velocity

No.
You need to be driving 61.363636... mph in reverse, straight away from the critter
when you fire your .458 WIN-SAAMI at the vitals
to get the same velocity as the Lott fired from a stand still.
This is not merely Relativity Theory, it is FACT !
Though stunt-shooting worthy that would be, best to just go ahead and accept the extra velocity of the .458 WIN-SAAMI on the ground.
Uneven terrain could throw off your aim from the moving bakkie.
Shot placement is everything.
That extra velocity of the .458 WIN-SAAMI will not be a bad thing with the right bullet.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Sounds like a Texas feral hog hunt to me! Really!

By helicopter or bakkie ?
The .458 WIN-SAAMI NEMO OMEN from a helicopter would be grand for hogs !

Rip ...

RIP, like you, I've been intrigued by the idea of a semi-auto .458 Win rifle. A few years back, I reached out to several companies making belted mag AR platform rifles with the idea of their making a .458 version, and then and since have learned the following:

1) Manufacturers: Nemo Arms (Omen); Falkor Defense (Petra); Noreen Firearms (BN36)

2) None of these manufacturers are willing to make a .458, although Nemo has done a couple just for fun and marketing.

3) Cost of platform: Falkor Petra > Nemo Omen >> Noreen BN36

4) Magazine cart COL: Noreen--3.4"; Nemo--3.5"; Falkor--3.5+"

5) Only Noreen is willing to sell rifle parts rather than just the whole rifle.

6) Depending upon budget, building a .458 Win AR with re-barrel, gas adjustment, mag follower tweaks, and buffer change should be doable. Each platform has its own advantages, and 2 out of 3 would allow LongCOL loads.

7) Maybe with enough interest from some of us, we could get a manufacturer to make a run in .458, or alternatively, we could identify a smith willing to modify one of these platforms and put rifles together.

8) All options are Pricey!

quote:

SAAMI recommends that manufacturers of .458 Lott ammunition expect 2150 fps with 500-grainer at 62,500 psi.

SAAMI recommends that manufacturers of .458 WIN ammunition expect 2240 fps with 500-grainer at 60,000 psi.

There is an applicational mistake or print mistake here somewhere. The physics don't support this. Don't get carried away.

416Tanzan,
You neglect to consider all the physics.
Look beyond mere brass length.
Look deeper, grasshopper, and you may yet come to know
the Four Five Eight.

Rip ...

bcelliott,

Sorry to hear Nemo is not stocking the Omen .458 WIN yet !
That is why my local FFL can't find one.
You have done some advanced research on the AR-458 WIN.
Should make for some great support of THE MISSION.
Much more interesting than a Garand or BAR.

I am getting partial to the idea of a pump-action .458 WIN too.

Rip ...

Lever action 458 win?

Yep, a Browning BLR would be fun too.
And Krieghoff is making their Semprio "in-line repeater"
sort of reverse-pump-action in .300 WIN and .375 Ruger !
All those dang barrel extensions for lock-up complicate things.
Not just a simple re-barrel job I am guessing.
We'll get to those later, for THE MISSION.
Anything but a Blaser R-8 !

Rip ...

I think as long as you can get around 2,050 ft/sec with a 500 grain bullet from a 458 winnie you are good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
I think as long as you can get around 2,050 ft/sec with a 500 grain bullet from a 458 winnie you are good to go.

At that velocity, as Finn Aagaard said, "it will make a bloody big hole in anything."

I rather prefer the standard of 480-grainer at 2150 fps, but not in a 28"-barreled .450 NE double rifle.
I rather prefer a shorter-barreled magazine-repeater rifle.
2150 fps with a 20" barrel or 2250 fps with 25" barrel,
at quite tropical pressures.
I suspect the 480-grain Hydro will blow bloody big holes through anything also.

I do believe both Finn Aagaard and that young whippersnapper Phil Shoemaker were both impressed by the old Barnes X-Bullet 400-grainer.
Finn tested them on artificial media at about 2350 fps from a short barrel, IIRC. I'll go dig up the evidence and post it here:



Some more of Aagaard's work, earlier on, more general data not specific to the 400-gr X-Bullet in the .458 WIN,
also previously posted on this thread,
worth repeating entire article for context:












Phil tested the old 400-gr X-Bullet on big brown bears, at greater than 2200 fps, IIRC, from his 21"-barreled .458 WIN Ol'Ugly.

They did as well or better in depth of penetration and wound volume than any of the conventional 500-grain expanding bullets,
according to Saint Finn.
Phil is not dead yet, can't be called "Saint Phil" just yet, but IIRC he praised the 400-gr X-Bullet too.
Too bad Barnes quit making it.

Using the 350-grain and 450-grain TSX bullets to replace it is OK.
Especially if the 350-grainer can be driven at +2700 fps,
and the 450-grainer at +2400 fps,
easily, in a 24"-barreled .458 WIN LongCOL.

In the BPCR days, a .450-bore with 360-grain lead bullet at 1700 fps was a real humdinger "Express" load.
Just sayin', for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

HA!

I looked at the SAAMI specs for the .45-70 Govt. barrel and it is:
0.456" groove diameter
0.450" bore diameter

I slugged Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger from the breech end and stopped when the slug (.50-cal lead ball)
was 6 inches from breechface, then I tapped it back out with a 7/16" wood dowel.

Groove diameter was 0.457"

I did another slug like that but kept on tapping until it popped out of the muzzle.
No tight or loose spots noted, no increasing force required moving along the barrel.

Groove diameter was 0.457" this time, at muzzle and at 6" from breech.

This makes more sense.

My 0.456" measurement at the muzzle previously was a "misunderestimation."
This time, the barrel was thoroughly cleaned, de-greased with GunScrubber,
lightly lubricated with BreakFree-CLP on a patch,
and patched dry with 3 dry patches on a bristle brush.

There is no choke bore (like they used to do on military 577/450 Martini-Henry rifles).
Goldie must be .450"/.457" all the way.
If the minimum groove spec is 0.456" per SAAMI,
making it 0.001" over minimum is in spec.

Just like about every .458 WIN barrel out there is .459" in the grooves instead of the minimum 0.458".

For cast bullets: If .461" works well in a .459"-grooved .458 WIN,
then .459" ought to do for a .457"-grooved .45-100 2.6" Sharps-WT.


Rip ...

About SAAMI saying the .458 WIN does 2240 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle with 24"-long barrel of 1:14" twist, at 60,000 psi:

This must have been done as a recognition of the defunct Hornady Heavy Magnum load for the SAAMI .458 WIN.

Strange thing is why they included 2025 fps for 500-grainer in same .458 WIN-SAAMI test barrel.

Not surprising: .458 Lott 500-grainer does 2150 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle with 24"-long barrel of 1:10" twist,
at 62,500 psi.

Rip ...

quote:

About SAAMI saying the .458 WIN does 2240 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle with 24"-long barrel of 1:14" twist, at 60,000 psi:

This must have been done as a recognition of the defunct Hornady Heavy Magnum load for the SAAMI .458 WIN.

Strange thing is why they included 2025 fps for 500-grainer in same .458 WIN-SAAMI test barrel.

As mentioned, I do not trust or accept those figures as the full story. I like the 458, whether Win or Lott or Rigby, but not unreported apples and oranges in the cake mixes.

An apples-to-apples comparison between factory and handload performance in the SAAMI Lott and both SAAMI and LongCol Win Mag in the same barrel lengths and twist would be a fun study. Two CZs could be used, or better yet, begin with a CZ chambered in the Lott, complete all shooting with all Lott loads restricted to 3.6" COLs, and then re-throat for the Win Mag and shoot the Win Mag loads in that chamber. This could be the first time a direct comparison for this purpose has been done in this reverse manner. Or, maybe not... Perhaps RIP has already signed that guest book and left?

Anyway, I'm having trouble believing the comedy of errors that is represented by the history of the .458 Lott. First, Lott made his case length too long for the magazine length, even though he initially used the better throat of the Win Mag. Then, SAAMI saboteurs shortened and messed up the throat. Finally, a faster barrel twist was added to further raise pressures and limit cartridge potential.
Meanwhile, the genius of the .458 Win Mag design was realized from the beginning design and execution, and in this thread its potential is continuing to be validated.

Report on shooting the 300 TSX as promised.

I was at the range 1/2 hr later than usual (due to daylight arriving later) but still with plenty of time to get everything organized before start-shooting time at 9:30 am. Today I took three rifles: the Ruger Tropical in .458 Win Mag, the Tikka in 9.3 x 62 and my CZ455 in .22LR.

First up was the Ruger in .458, the forearm resting on a Hornady all-purpose front rest with a 25 lb bag of shot on top. The forearm was resting on the shot bag. The rear was the front rest of a plastic pair used for light rifle shooting. (The one in the pic presented by RIP of the Ruger with the new butt stock on our kitchen counter.) I was wearing a thick folded towel under my jacket with a PAST magnum recoil pad outside my jacket. I've used that setup with my former Ruger .45-70 LT. But I didn't wear the guard for my middle finger of my shooting hand as I normally did with the .45-70 LT. So that finger got wacked on the knuckle each time I squeezed the trigger! Will correct that in future shooting at the range.

Bullet: 300gr TSX (crimped into bottom groove at 3.32" COL.)
Powder: 73 grains H4198
WLRM primer
Remington brass
Average corrected MV from 5 shots = 2687 fps/4809 ft-lbs. My goal was +/- 2700 fps. Given it was a dark cool day, that was close enough to the goal.

I had cleaned the barrel, and the new stock had been installed, so I didn't know where the first shot might land. It had previously been sighted for the 470gr hardcast, so I thought that the 300gr TSX would be shooting much higher. As it turned out though, it shot close enough to where it was sighted that I didn't bother making any sight adjustments until all 5 were fired.

The first 2 were really making their own adjustments for the cleaning and installing of a new stock. After that the remaining 3 went into 1.4", which, all things considered, was a successful outing. I then made scope corrections to put that group of three about 1" high at 100 yards = a 150 yard zero. That, of course, will be confirmed before I hunt.

I also fired 3 of a hunting load from my 9.3 x 62. This was the same load used to take my last bear in 2015. the 250gr Nos AB. I only had to move poi an inch left at +1.5" Three into 1-inch.

The MV of the two distinct rifles and loads were similar: 2656 fps for the 250gr from the 9.3 x 62 vs 2687 fps from the 300gr/.458".

The Tikka is lighter by a couple of pounds, and the bullet is a 250 vs a 300 from the .458 - which has slightly less recoil due to the weight differential and Mag-na-ports.

Just some points of interest for the curious.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

About SAAMI saying the .458 WIN does 2240 fps at 15 feet from the muzzle with 24"-long barrel of 1:14" twist, at 60,000 psi:

This must have been done as a recognition of the defunct Hornady Heavy Magnum load for the SAAMI .458 WIN.

Strange thing is why they included 2025 fps for 500-grainer in same .458 WIN-SAAMI test barrel.

As mentioned, I do not trust or accept those figures as the full story. I like the 458, whether Win or Lott or Rigby, but not unreported apples and oranges in the cake mixes.

But hey, I got a dog in this fight.
Maybe there is a .458 Lott saboteur at SAAMI.
Karma.
After all the sabotage of the .458 WIN ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
An apples-to-apples comparison between factory and handload performance in the SAAMI Lott and both SAAMI and LongCol Win Mag in the same barrel lengths and twist would be a fun study. Two CZs could be used, or better yet, begin with a CZ chambered in the Lott, complete all shooting with all Lott loads restricted to 3.6" COLs, and then re-throat for the Win Mag and shoot the Win Mag loads in that chamber. This could be the first time a direct comparison for this purpose has been done in this reverse manner. Or, maybe not... Perhaps RIP has already signed that guest book and left?

We all know how it would turn out. Now don't we?

Anyway, I'm having trouble believing the comedy of errors that is represented by the history of the .458 Lott.

THANKS FOR SUMMARIZING SO WELL.

First, Lott made his case length too long for the magazine length, even though he initially used the better throat of the Win Mag.

Jack was just doing what was easy with the brass length. Fire-form a .375 H&H and you come up short, best to trim and unifom to 2.800".
Jack used BRNO ZKK-602 rifles later on.
It was SAAMI that slapped the 3.6" COL on it.

Then, SAAMI saboteurs shortened and messed up the throat.

That is the most profound bit of damage to the .458 Lott, making it no longer like the wildcat.

Finally, a faster barrel twist was added to further raise pressures and limit cartridge potential.

Really not significant for pressure and velocity changes: -6 fps and +150 psi.
The 1:10" twist might be better for the long monometals, a specialist twist, worse for the cast lead.
Overall not as desirable as a 1:14" twist.

Meanwhile, the genius of the .458 Win Mag design was realized from the beginning design and execution, and in this thread its potential is continuing to be validated.

Thanks, bcelliott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Bullet: 300gr TSX (crimped into bottom groove at 3.32" COL.)
Powder: 73 grains H4198
WLRM primer
Remington brass
Average corrected MV from 5 shots = 2687 fps/4809 ft-lbs. My goal was +/- 2700 fps. Given it was a dark cool day, that was close enough to the goal.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Thanks for that SAAMI-compliant load, for THE MISSION, Bob.
I enjoyed your latest blog. I do keep up with it.
Good luck on the hunt.
I am still piddling about getting ready for deer hunting.
Always more fun with a .458 WIN.
One of these days I'll go after the bear and buffalo again,
with a .458 WIN.

Rip ...

Recall that the Hydro meplat diameter is 0.337".

Rip ...

Rip ...

The .458/480-grain X-TSX: SOFT or SOLID?
Well, it has a hollow point, and the hole depth is about 0.350" remaining
of the original that was about 0.560" deep, about 1/8" (0.125") diameter,
skived internally to fracture into 4 petals.
Surely that makes it legal to hunt with where solids are not allowed.
Ditto the Hydro.
Might have similar performance on game.

Rip ...

Correct groove diameters:

Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger:


Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger:


I just need to size the cast bullets .461" for Bobbee and .459" for Goldie.

7.25-pound Bobbie can fire any jacketed-bullet .458 WIN load transposed to the 2.6" flanged case with 0.1" longer COL than in the .458 WIN.
However, I fear some of the heavier ones might split her stock or my shoulder.

11.5-pound Goldie with tight grooves might better have her jacketed-bullet loads tailored specifically for her.
Best to stick with cast bullet loads in Goldie at Selous-Quigley levels.
Any loads developed there can be transposed to the .458 WIN by loading them 0.1" shorter in the 2.5" belted case.
FUN ! For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Speaking of fun for THE MISSION, here is a bit of it, thanks to member JFE, referring to a thread at another forum, started in 2016:

Of historical interest only, this is presented here because of alleged identification of a "Winchester Ballistics R&D Engineer"
named Walter Engel who claimed to have been involved in the creation of the .458 Winchester Magnum:

https://www.shootersforum.com/...e-458-wm-africa.html

The final word on the historical failure of the .458 WM in Africa

Quote

In the latest issue of the South African magazine Man / Magnum the very knowledgeable gun writer/PH/ DG control official Gregor Woods relates the contents of a copy of a letter he long ago got from Walter Engel who was the ballistic engineer at Winchester at the time of the conception of the .458 WM. This caliber was never intended to even BE at the top end of DG hunting calibres, but was a cost saving effort by Winchester to have all their rifles with one, standard length action, from the .222 to the .458, the Magnum calibres also including the .338, .300 and .264.

Engelsś original letter was sent to Jeff Cooper who earlier had scathing complaints in a piece he published about the failures he experienced in Africa with the .458 WM on Cape buffalo (Cooper immediately started working on what became the .460 Guns & Ammo - in fact I had occasion to shoot this very rifle). The intent of the letter to Cooper was to explain that the marketing section at Winchester spinned this new calibre above what its capability ever could be, and also to explain the reasons for the low velocities (1,500 ft/sec) of factory ammunition.

Two things become apparent from this explanation by Engels:

1). The commercial powders at the time (IMR 4064 and IMR 4320) were chemically of very poor consistency - quite apart from the fact that the case volume was grossly inadequate for the amount of powder needed, which resulted in the well documented compression into a virtual tablet of the powder inside the case, the powder in fact weeped acid during storage and never ignited fully.

2). Only the base of the bullet held by the case mouth was of calibre diameter and the front end beyond the case mouth reduced to .450¨ for some or other reason. Many many batches of factory ammunition that made their way to Africa were found to be of .450¨ diameter for the full length of the bullet, so these never touched the rifling and thus never stabilised. Hunters shot bullets that not even penetrated the skin of a buffalo or elephant - not only due to a muzzle velocity if at best 1,500 ft/sec, but which were totally unstable, tumbling when leaving the muzzle.

Some ammunition manufacturers quietly reduced the powder capacity to prevent this compression which did nothing better than to keep muzzle velocities in the 1,700 ft.sec range, still with inadequate stability.

Immediately after the many, many failures to penetrate even the skin of a buffalo the improvement of the .458 was attempted: Cooper´s .460 Guns&Ammo, the .460 Weatherby Magnum, the .458 Lott (after this gentleman was gored by a buffalo in Africa shot with a .458 WM), the .450 Watts, the .450 Ackley Magnum, and a few years ago the .458 3¨ Express developed in South Africa.

Apart from the two .460s the object of all these were not to get much higher velocities but to attain the original published figure of 2,150 ft/sec without compressing the powder.

There still is no USA factory ammunition for the .458WM that exceeds 2,000 ft/sec in this calibre with 500gr bullets, but handloaders with South African powders are quite certain of at least 2,050 ft/sec from a 24” commercial barrel.

In closing, maybe Walter Engel, Winchesterś R&D ballistics engineer at the time should have the last word, quoted from his letter to Jeff Cooper: ¨At no time was the .458 designed to be the ultimate big bore magnum calibre. It was more the result of cost saving..¨ He concluded that ¨sales people … have exaggerated its performance… but hype and spin is part of their world¨.

Pity these folks still do that everywhere you meet them. In the case of the .458WM that caused good folks to get killed and a large number injured.

End Quote

As far as I am concerned, the only interesting concept here is that the .458 WIN was not originally meant to be a DG cartridge for African use !
Well, it sure turned out to be one, more successful than any other.
Puzzling is that Gregor Woods thought Somchem powders were the best available in the .458 WIN.
Maybe just the best that he could get, or just some South African home cooking of the news.
All the rest is old hat and explained by industrial malpractice and a conspiracy (puposeful) against the .458 Winchester Magnum
to promote other agendas.

The final word my ass.

Rip ...

Anybody ever own a Jimmy Carter era Ford v8? If so does that define the Ford v8 before or after those Emissions and fuel standards disasters?
We owned a 1965 ford galaxy with a 390 in it. At over 100,000 miles of mostly gravel road driving it would still run 120 mph in just over 1/4 mile. Got 20 mpg it whole life. The folks with new fords belched smoke, would not run and got 12-14 mpg. Same engine.
Today the 458wm is a great, efficient hammer of anything you want to shoot. Easy to load, easy to shoot and simply gets the job done. This thread has buried any logical doubt. That is The Mission.

Phil
I would love to hear more about your son’s 35 whelen and ammo. I looked up the Buffalo Bore ammo and it appears it’s a Barnes 225 tsx? I have a bit of experience either the Whelen and the original 225 X bullet at 2750-2825 FPS. Maybe a put a post in the Alaska forum?
Best regards

Fury01,
Thanks for the double ring of THE MISSION bell.

The most damnable whining of the .458 WIN denial is claiming PH and client morbidity and mortality that was worse than the toll of malaria.
No substance to it.
Just hearsay.
Where are the case reports?
Let us have them.
If any are true, they are due to faulty factory ammo, bad components or processes of incompetence,
or plain bad marksmanship.

I will debunk one of the earliest and most famous, AGAIN ! For emphasis.
That of Jack Lott in 1959.

In THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN of January 1972, Jack Lott did the preparation for his soon to be announced re-invention of the wheel (.458 Lott)
in his article "Why Magazine Big-Bore Rifles Are Best Part I."
The February 1972 TAR carried the "Part II" conclusion.

"... Inevitably, some wildcatters took the .375 H & H case and developed elephant cartridges such as the .450 Watts and the .450 Ackley Magnum.

That is like saying some people did something on 9-11-2001 !

These cartridges used Barnes copper tubing-jacketed soft nose and solid bullets that will not shatter and gave maximum penetration of heavy game ...
Some of the early U.S. .450 Magnums were shaky things when made by gunsmiths who had never built up anything bigger than a .300 Magnum ...
Winchester apparently was watching all this activity, which received ample coverage in shooting publications ...

Thus Jack obscures the 1949 origin of the .450 WATTS MAGNUM, and the back and forth between James Watts and Winchester Arms
that began in 1946,
not acted upon until 1955, by Winchester Arms.

Then Jack tells of his gut-shooting a cape buffalo in Mozambique in 1959, using the .458 Winchester Magnum.

... Sometimes it isn't possible to avoid injury to a guide or the client ...

To be continued.