quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Woodleigh did GOOD on the 480-gr RNSP designed specifically for the SAAMI .458 WIN:



Benchmark looks very good here for a SAAMI load.

AA-2230 and/or AA-2460 ought to perk up the 480-grain Hydro load in the .458 WIN LongCOL.
Might perk up a SAAMI 480-gr RNSN load too,
though the Woodleigh data is plenty promising.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Perhaps for dinosaur (thinking Brit nomenclature here), the one-inch Gatling might be the go. Strangely, until seeing this reference, I'd thought the Gatling fired something like the .45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
.416/450-gr SD = 0.371
.458/550-gr SD = 0.375

Surely no higher SD than that is warranted.
The longer bullets are inherently less stable than the shorter ones at any given spin rate.
The heavier ones go slower and spin slower, from a given twist rate.
So you need to up the velocity or twist rate with the heavies,
might take a more specialized "Gun for Dinosaur"
than the SAAMI standard .458 WIN specs of the NEMO OMEN.

I am thinking Woodleigh's heaviest .458 HSS might be the optimum for the terrible lizards, using a SAAMI .458 WIN: 480-grainer.

.458/480-gr SD = 0.327
That is a little better than a 404 Jeffery with 400-grainer.
.423/400-gr SD = 0.319

The best penetration I have seen on game was with a .500 A2, impact velocity being in the 2300 to 2400 fps range, for the GSC FN,
Texas Heart Shot exited throat of bison. DRT.
A second shot after he was dead, and stretched out on the ground, into the other butt cheek, for bullet testing purposes, also exited throat:
.510/570-gr SD = 0.313

The best penetration I have seen on the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo was with the S&H .395/330-gr FN brass solid, impact about 2800 fps:
.395/330-gr SD = 0.302

Seems like there might be more than one way to penetrate a dinosaur than with high SD alone.
Proper nose shape of brass solid, 2400 fps MV,
and greater than 0.3 SD might be adequate.

Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized (brass) Solids are offered in these weights for the .458: 480, 450, 400, and 325 grains
I laughed when I saw that last one in the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual.

Top loads with the .458 WIN LongCOL could surely beat anything that the Woodleigh manual shows for the .458 Lott.
They only give data for the 400-gr and 450-gr HSS ("HYDRO") in the .458 Lott:

.458/480-gr SD = 0.327

.458/450-gr SD = 0.306 ... 2480 fps with 85.0 grains (compressed) of Hodgdon Benchmark (same as ADI Bench Mark 2)

.458/400-gr SD = 0.272 ... 2570 fps with 87.0 grains (compressed) of H4895 (same as AR2206H)

.458/325-gr SD = 0.221

No barrel length was specified for the above, assume the usual 24", like they said for the test barrel of the 450 Rigby Rimless.

Big boo-boo found on page 240 of the .458 Lott section of the Woodleigh manual:
Case capacity of the .458 Lott IS NOT 144 grains of water,
and case capacity of the .450 Ackley IS NOT 148 grains.
The .460 Weatherby ain't that big!

I suspect the .458 WIN LongCOL could get 2400 fps with the 480-grain HYDRO in a 24" barrel.
That might be a best compromise for a bolt-action GUN FOR DINOSAUR.

So we need a DINOSAUR BULLET TRAP for testing purposes.
And go see what Doc M said about the Woodleigh HYDRO penetration in his test media ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Surely sambarman338 will have sense enough to load a .410/400-grain Hydro in his ".400 S. Jeffery" Heym double rifle
next time he goes after water buffalo.

Here is some amazing performance on Bubalis bubalis:
Entered horn base/skull and scrambled brain
Exited skull
Re-entered neck and smashed spine
Exited southward from rear flank of north-facing buffalo:

.375/300-grain Hydro from .378 Weatherby at 2850 fps MV



Can't wait to get some steel-tipped Hydros (+/- plastic, feed-assisting helmets) for the dazzling, high-velocity .458 WIN LongCOL.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Surely sambarman338 will have sense enough to load a .410/400-grain Hydro in his ".400 S. Jeffery" Heym double rifle
next time he goes after water buffalo.

Here is some amazing performance on Bubalis bubalis:
Entered horn base/skull and scrambled brain
Exited skull
Re-entered neck and smashed spine
Exited southward from rear flank of north-facing buffalo:

.375/300-grain Hydro from .378 Weatherby at 2850 fps MV



Can't wait to get some steel-tipped Hydros (+/- plastic, feed-assisting helmets) for the dazzling, high-velocity .458 WIN LongCOL.

Rip ...

I do have some Hydros loaded up for the 338WM, RIP, and they would probably work on buffalo as long as you don't have to follow them into the mimosa.

Whether to use them in the db is another issue I haven't thought much about. When I was a boy (as my dear old father used to say), monos were thought not to be good for doubles. However, some (even H&H) seem to opine that FMP bullets can cause trouble, too - so who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A testimonial to a small-caliber, low-SD, low-velocity Hydro:



It was a .375/235-gr Hydro at 1800 fps MV from a .375 WCF, as from a Winchester ".375 Big Bore" lever action.
Impacted water buffalo at 30 yards, at base of neck, frontal chest shot, passed through heart, basically DRT,
Hydro recovered in rear end of buffalo.
That is the exit hole on the heart above.
Wow!
That is almost as good as a .45-70 with 430-grain Punch solid bullet at 1800 fps.

Just imagine what a .458/480-grain Hydro at 2150 to 2400 fps from a .458 WIN would do!
Line'em up and we will try to get three water buffalo with one shot.
On purpose this time.
Just to see if it can be done reliably instead of by accident.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I've still got some of those 235-grain Hydros, RIP, and might have another go at loading them.

I asked Geoff McDonald what loads worked several years ago and he said his monos could be used with the same ones listed for conventional bullets.

As I recall I had trouble getting enough powder behind them within the 94's action length to become excited using RL-7 but, if 1800fps is enough, they might even do for sambar.

Want to do some stunt shootin', eh?
For close-range brush bustin' Sambar, the Hydro is good, according to Graeme Wright.
Wright-O.

At least at that speed they might print somewhere near the 250-grain Winchesters I sight in for.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The 577/450 Martini Henry was one of the earliest wildcats.
CIP standardized (homologated) it in 1984.

My latest wildcat is the 577/.458 Martini Henry Winchester Throated.
Hey! It has case capacity about identical to the .450 Rigby Rimless,
that upstart "me too" that followed after the .450 Dakota,
which was a "me-too" to the 460 Wby, with belt removed.
And so-on, and so-on ... Watts ... Buhmiller ... Barnes ... Ackley ...



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


Alf begins his simple, desultory Philippic with the "shame" emoji.

The 458 Win like it or not, was primarily (and likely will always be) a cartridge associated with DG hunting ! That was it’s intent and it’s purpose.

AMEN!

It was promoted and advertised as such complete with little buffalo symbols and it gained reputation and disrepute in some circles in this realm!

Any disrepute arose from botched-batch factory ammo, easily corrected.
The fact that botched-batch happened at all speaks volumes on the success of the .458 WIN.
The demand for it was so great that the factory could not keep up and some fool took short cuts in QA
to meet his quotas for the bean counters.
Thereafter, any disrepute for the .458 WIN came from a cabal of maledictors conspiring to promote their own agendas.
It was as simple as many makers (corporate and wildcatter) wanting to sell more guns and ammo to get a piece of that Winchester pie.
That is my conspiracy theory, and I am sticking to it.

Not a mouse gun, nor a Deerslayer or a long. Range plinker.

But of course the highly flexible .458 WIN performs all those roles with aplomb.
The handloader can make the .458 WIN sing opera and tap dance too.

It’s reputation ( or disrepute) was and will likely for ever be linked to the 500 gr RN FMJ and a 510 gr RNSP loaded to a full caliber length bullet seating depth !

Alf, I like the way you leave a space before and after your exclamation points ! You make way too much of getting a full caliber-length of neck gripping the bullet ! The .510-caliber .500 Jeffery has a neck length, at best, of 8.33mm or 0.328" with maximum brass length !
That is only 0.318" with brass at "proper trim" !
And you think the .500 Jeffery is just swell, eh ?
If we allow the .458 WIN LongCOL proportionally the same as the .500 Jeffery,
then the seating depth of the .458-caliber bullet, for a flat base bullet,
is (0.318"/0.510")x(0.458") = 0.286" or 7.26mm !
Shazam ! That is about the shallowest I would ever seat a .458-caliber, absolutely flat-based bullet.
When I seat a 500-gr TSX to COL of 3.780" there is a seating depth of 0.383".
That beats the .500 Jeffery all to heck !
Firmly crimped, rolled into that last groove-cannelure, over a full case of powder, that load is secure.
That is also about as long as you can go with it in the SAAMI .458 WIN chamber, to stay off the lands.
That is impossible in the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber. NO GO there !
That is a perfect functional length in the approximately 3.85" magazine length of the CZ 550 Magnum and Dakota M76 African.
That COL also is capable of bughole accuracy at 2250 fps MV in the .458 WIN in my rifle.
Accuracy was almost as good at 2342 fps MV, from that 24-7/8" long barrel.

Many have tried to undo the reputation, deserved or not !

Definitely undeserved of the "nay-sayers" attempts at undoing the sterling reputation of the .458 WIN.
Like I said, the "nay-saying" is due to personal and corporate agendas.

I have literally a library of papers , writings, clippings , books and more than a earful of stories , tales , fables and hearsay that surrounds the 458!

Yep, me too, all taken with a grain of saltpeter.

Someone who knows someone who heard from another that such and such shot a elephant and the bullet actually stuck in its head.... you could reach out and pluck it with a plier ! That off course after the angry beast turned the favorite tracker to a smear of blood in the dust !

And then off course sitting around the fire, someone pulls a bullet with a plier and has to dig the clumped and caked powder from the case with one of those long white acacia thorns.
Yes sat through a few of those!

More botched-batch factory ammo horror tales.
If that is all they have to cry about, dismiss it with a roll of the eyes.

Dunno every single one I ever pulled from those very first WW loads the ball powder seemed just fine, never seen ball powder clump ever ! , flake yes, extruded yes! ball never ! ballbearings don’t clump !

Hooray ! Making some sense now.
The botched batch may have been gooey ball powder ! And more !

Not a 480 gr or a 400 gr or heaven forbid a 350 gr bullet !

500 gr was the norm because in this bullet weight it met the criteria as set forth by those who wrote “the rules” for the hunting of DG !

Wrong. 480-grain FMJ weight for a .458-caliber bullet was the ideal, at 2150 fps.
Earliest claims for it were at 2200 fps, but at what barrel length of double rifle?
500-grain FMJ at 2125 fps was the transmutation to .470 NE in 1907.
Even the .500/.465 NE of H&H used a 480-grain bullet of .468" diameter and 2150 fps.
The 577/450 MH ruled the Empire with a 480-grain paper-patched lead bullet at 1350 fps.
Alexander Henry ruled early target shooting with same 480-grain paper-patched lead bullet.
And so on & et cetera ... the 480-grainer at 2150 to 2200 fps is how it should have been from the start
with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Going with 500 and 510-gr bullets was for marketing purposes.

For many those who used this cartridge on a daily basis there was not the option of reloading , it was illegal so factory was the only way to go! 500 gr FMJ and 510 RNSP!

A statement of historical truth at last.

You are definitely not the first person to load “long COL” !

Finn Aagaard taught me about it back in the 1980's.

The question begs why ? Why did so many before see the need to go “long COL”.

The answer is quite simple and you have taken .. what 150 odd pages to prove the point exactly?

That when loaded to original spec with the powders available at the time the case capacity of the 458 win fell short to even duplicate its advertised velocities!

Despite the 1955-1956 lab reports from H.P. White, by way of General Hatcher, to the contrary ! Alf persists in misunderestimation of the .458 WIN !
Alf: SHAME ON YOU !

Point is so what ?

So Watts and So Lott and SO WIN is what !
The throating of the .458 WIN is how it is done, Alf.
Whether at 3.340" COL and less than 60,000 psi (SAAMI MAP for the .458 WIN) or at 3.780" COL and up to 62,500 psi like is allowed by SAAMI for the .458 Lott MAP, or anything in between.
That's what.
Strangely enough CIP does allow both the .458 Winchester Magnum and the .458 Lott to use the same higher MAP/Pmax of 4300 bar,
which is about 62,350 psi.
Strangely enough, the CIP chambers for both of those cartridges now match what SAAMI has decreed,
even if they disagree on the pressures allowed.
The .458 WIN is long-throated.
The .458 Lott is short-throated.
American factory ammo could be hotted up considerably at 3.340" COL for the .458 WIN,
if SAAMI allowed them to load the .458 WIN to same pressure as they are allowed to load the .458 Lott.

Because at whatever velocities it went it got the job done!

AMEN!

When Somchem in SA went 458 in their Super range ( came in a 20 pack with 4 smaller 5 round boxes at back with gold embossed lettering ) they could not duplicate the original claims put forth by WW not if they were to use a 500 gr bullet! They had to go lighter on the bullet and even then barely made the grade !

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... it hit me with "the cold sudden fury of a divine messenger" (as Jimbo said) that if we have to do all that to prevent bending scopes or getting the reticle out of centre, what is the point of constantly centred reticles for any serious purpose?

We can only pray that a divine messenger will bring the cold sudden fury of truth to ALF.

I have always preferred steel scopes or German dural ones with thick tubes and stout rails

First monoplane fighter of WWI was made of duralumin in 1918
(aluminum/aluminium with about 4% copper and lesser amounts of manganese and magnesium, it hardens with age): Junker D1 pictured above.

and wonder how strong one-inch aluminum ones can really be. But when the concept is unpacked, a 'constantly centred' scope with the reticle clicked away from the centre is just the optical equivalent of a bent scope, anyway. Even the old Pecar Champion, whose makers eschewed floating the erector set, is guilty of this optical distortion if not mounted straight.

quote:

Thereafter, any disrepute for the .458 WIN came from a cabal of maledictors conspiring to promote their own agendas.