Hi Bob,

I replaced the stock on mine with a Hogue stock (with the complete aluminium bedding chassis) and with Leupold mounts/ rings and Leupold 1.5-4x scope, it weighs spot on 4kg.

Like I've mentioned before, I've owned 3 Zastava's before - 2 of them .458's and everyone of them have fed perfectly from the mag and ejected with no problem from the box. Just great rifles...

It isn't a CZ sized action/ magazine so loading long isn't an option - but I'm not fussed. I'm happy with the traditional 480gn Woodleigh RNSP at an easy 2150fps. There is a nice hint of romance and tradition about that load.
If I was ever to win Tattslotto and could afford to hunt elephant, I would load up the Woodleigh Hydro for an equally easy 2200fps and have the absolute hunt of a lifetime!

Thanks Russ, that was an excellent description. And a 480 at 2150 should be plenty for anything. What powder and how much, if you don't mind sharing.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

If I had one of the Zastava "M70" M98 .458 WIN rifles, I too could be very happy with 480-grainers at 2150 to 2200 fps.
One can even do 2300 fps at 3.340" COL with the 480-grainers,
but that would kick a bit much in such a light and lively rifle.
An iphone photo of the laptop screen, from Tradeex of Canada web site:



Rip ...

The remnant of the painted 480-ish grainers, until another batch gets painted,
and the last 32 pieces of a batch of WW brass, being fired for the third time, to be annealed after this:

Gonna give the old grease-grooved Berry's .459"/409-gr (includes weight of blue lube) FN "Hardcast" another try.
This time in the .458"-grooved, 23"-long barrel of Marcella.
That is a .001" tighter barreled .458 Win than I tried them in last time.
Slapped harder on the back end of the bullet this time too.
I bought a 500-count box of them, long ago, still have over 400 of them.
Rip ...

Why bother with a reduced-velocity 510-grain load in the .458 WIN ?
Low recoil, using smaller charge weight of faster burning powder.
You get 500 fps slower velocity at 7000 psi higher pressure.

Recall:
8-pound rifle: 78.7 ft-lbs/ 25.2 fps
9-pound rifle: 69.9 ft-lbs/ 22.4 fps
10-pound rifle: 62.9 ft-lbs/ 20.1 fps
Call that the "Classic .450 Nitro Express" level of recoil in a 10-pounder, field ready.
The classic .450 Special Rigby of 1897 (first NE double rifle ever) did 2200 fps with 480-grainer, 70 grains Cordite, and longish barrels.
Recoil is exactly the same for a 500-gr bullet at 2140 fps using 72 grains of slower burning powder.

Reduced load: 510-gr bullet, 1640 fps, 45 grains powder
10-pound rifle: 34.8 ft-lbs/ 14.97 fps .............................. Almost half the KE of kick, and slower kick too, a gentle push.

Maybe the 480-gr bullet will go 100 fps faster with same powder charge, and gentler recoil ?

Reduced load: 480-gr bullet, 1740 fps, 45 grains powder
10-pound rifle: 34.8 ft-lbs/ 14.95 fps .............................. Same KE of kick, only 0.02 fps slower, not much gentler !

Reduced load: 410-gr bullet, 1940 fps, 45 grains powder
10-pound rifle: 30.9 ft-lbs/ 14.11 fps .............................. A plinking load,
but more powerful than the Elmer Keith .45-70 Govt. hunting load, a 400-grainer at 1800 fps.

I will be shooting more and more 400-grainers in my .458 WIN.
Anywhere from 1800 fps to 2500 fps from the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, depending on the bullet.

Rip ...

Something else that the .458 WIN is better at than the .458 Lott,
low-recoil loads.
So it beats the .458 Lott on both the low end and the top end.

Some low recoil loads for straight SAAMI .458 WIN,
24" barrels for all,
COL shorter than 3.340" for all,
pressures less than SAAMI MAP for all,
from three different reloading manuals:

Speer 400-gr FNSP 3.125" COL
IMR-SR-4759: 26.0 grains >>> 1262 fps
............. 30.0 grains >>> 1445 fps
H4198: 60.0 grains >>> 2107 fps
....... 64.0 grains >>> 2231 fps

Swift 400-gr SP 3.220" COL
H4198: 61.0 grains >>> 2197 fps (44,000 CUP)
....... 67.0 grains >>> 2323 fps (51,000 CUP)
H322: 68.5 grains >>> 2211 fps (36,500 CUP)
...... 76.0 grains >>> 2407 fps (51,000 CUP)

405-gr FN cast bullet 3.000" COL
AA-5744: 45.9 grains >>> 1909 fps
......... 51.0 grains >>> 2170 fps (59,708 psi)

400-gr Barnes Original SSSP 3.140" COL
AA-2015: 68.4 grains >>> 2172 fps
......... 76.0 grains >>> 2468 fps (57,584 psi)
AA-2230: 72.0 grains >>> 2162 fps
......... 80.0 grains >>> 2457 fps (53,690 psi)
AA-2460: 72.0 grains >>> 2158 fps
......... 80.0 grains >>> 2452 fps (52,746 psi)

The Lottite comedians should put those numbers in their recoil calculators and smoke the Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Thanks Russ, that was an excellent description. And a 480 at 2150 should be plenty for anything. What powder and how much, if you don't mind sharing.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

No worries, my pleasure.

Firstly I just want to say Happy Easter and God Bless!

The pic that RIP posted of the Zastava looked identical to the one I've got.


I've posted this pic just recently but here's what it looks like now... 4kg all up!



And here's what my hand-loaded 480gn Woodleigh looks like. Sexy...



And here's what that exact hand-load does to a small Fallow deer at 150mtrs...



My hand-load is as follows;

Winchester Case
Woodleigh 480gn RNSP
74gn of AR2206H (H4895)
CCI Mag primer
@2150fps (chronographed by me)

This is just a fantastic load. Never had a pressure problem, cloverleafs 3 shots at 50m and little compression.
The bullet just sits nice and snug on the powder... just perfect.

But there is another load that should prove at least as good and that is;

Winchester case
480 gn Woodleigh RNSP
74gn AR2208 (Varget)
CCI Mag primer
@ estimated velocity 2150fps

With 450-500gn projectiles these 2 powders it seems can be substituted for one another.
Same powder and same powder charge for the same velocity - but AR2208 (Varget) does it at slightly lower pressure.
For example, the 2 loads I mentioned above should have the same MV but the Varget load has approx 2200cup less pressure.

Here's the link for the ADI site. They have some good load data for the .458
They also have a powder conversion chart to convert Aussie powders to their American equivalent..

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/...8-winchester-magnum/

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

FOR THE MOST WORTHY OF MISSIONS!!!

Russ

BBM,
Shame on you - Beating up on that poor little Fallow deer with that big old bullet?
My grandson shoots them with his 7mm-08. Also hogs, other deer, etc.
Fallow deer and Axis are common on Texas exotic ranches and therefore some escape to free range.

Just joking about the big bore on wee animals.
I took my first Blackbuck with a 300 grain bullet from my 45-90 - way overkill, but it was a good trophy that jumped up when I was hunting other game. Good to eat too. Better than Fallow and as good as Axis, IMHO. Red deer and elk are favorites of my family.

Your .458 mag would be good for Nilgai, especially big old Blue Bulls.

Happy Easter to ONE and ALL!

For and excellent true Easter message (not about bunnies and chocolate) Google:

"The Answer is Easter" by Rick Warren - youtube

You will be blessed!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Melvin,
Was your rife / Barrel a drop in fit in the Houge Stock?

Great handload recipe for the 480-grainers by badboymelvin.
The Woodleigh Weldcore is a bit rough on the hamburger recovery percentage, however.
Fist-sized exit wound comparison with the 400-gr monometal at +2500 fps MV on a running deer at 150 yards:



Also a mite rough on the hamburger, whether 480-grainer or 400-grainer.
A good excuse for "reduced" loads in the .458 WIN,
harkening back to the perfect deer rifle of the 19th century, the .450 BPE, the small bore of its time.
A time when rifles were rifles, men were men, and the deer were tasty as ever.

Rip ...

badboymelvin's link to ADI load data shows that Hodgdon and ADI are sharing data as well as using the same powders made by ADI, surprise, surprise:

Sub-400-gr bullets above,
continuing with the .458 WIN loads for 400- to 510-grainers below,
"SFT SP" standing for Swift A-Frame (400-gr and 450-gr).
One may interpolate precisely between the 450-gr Swift and 500-gr Hornady JRN to get a load for jacketed 480-grainer at 3.340" COL:

Interesting that the only load in the entirety of the data that reaches maximum pressure of 53,000 CUP
is with the old 510-gr Winchester SP,
2100 fps from 24" barrel,
72.5 grains IMR-4895, not compressed.
And that bullet is .457" diameter !
SAAMI spec is to maximum jacketed bullet diameter of .459",
and minimum groove diameter for barrel being .458".

Conclusions:

The .457"/ 510-grain SP from Winchester is mighty peculiar.

Hodgdon/ADI "Extreme" powders are generally to be preferred over the old IMR.

The only Accurate Arms/ Western Powders propellants that can beat them with 400-grain and heavier bullets are AA-2230 and AA-2460, in the .458 WIN.
Western Powders touts them as temperature insensitive, like the Hodgdon/ADI Extreme propellants, since 2016 reformulation.

H4198 is fast enough for even the .458/250-gr bullets.

Less sticky and faster bullets than the Swift A-frame do exist,
but even they can yield higher velocity at lower pressure by loading to longer COL than shown above.
Higher velocity still is possible if loaded to same higher pressure as the .458 Lott, 62,500 psi instead of 60,000 psi/53,000 CUP,
like Bob & Ron's loads, like Ben & Jerry's ice cream.

Rip ...

Those Woodleigh bullets seem to work on everything. I remember reading many years ago that Geoff McDonald tested them on goat and red roos and buffalo and if they worked on both then they were OK.

Mike,
I just acquired the last 4 boxes of the
Woodleigh 400-gr PP SN that Huntington's
had in stock.
2000 fps for deer, 2500 fps for bear and buffalo.
I also just got the Accurate Molds
46-410M mould that should make a hardball bullet of similar
weight and length with gas check and powder-coat paint.
All will work through a .30-06-length magazine.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Melvin,
Was your rife / Barrel a drop in fit in the Houge Stock?

Yes mate, it was.
You do have to modify the safety (you need to grind off the part that locks the bolt handle down) but that’s a simple job.
Otherwise it drops straight in.

Cheers,

Russ

Rip ...

It's interesting so many people just think of the 500 grainer in the 458. That would be like everyone thinking of just the 220 grains in 30/06 or 250 grains in the 338.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
It's interesting so many people just think of the 500 grainer in the 458. That would be like everyone thinking of just the 220 grains in 30/06 or 250 grains in the 338.

This is a good point--it was the way I always thought about it until I got my own .458 and began actually thinking about how I could best use the cartridge where I was. Perhaps 500 grains just sounds so big and mighty?

Good point indeed !
Mike has noted how pleasant and effective a .458/ 400-grain soft point is at 2000 fps on roo and deer.
I am suspecting that a .458"/ 400-gr Woodleigh HYDRO at 2500 fps would be equally pleasant and effective on elephant brains.
Why use anything else but 400-grainers in a .458 WIN ?
A brass FN of .458"/ 400 grains is non-deforming at 2500 fps in any game.
A shorter solid is more stable in straight-line penetration than a longer solid.
Momentum of a 400-grainer at 2500 fps is trifling less than the heavier bullets at classic .450 NE ballistics,
but the Kinetic Energy of the 400-grainer is significantly more.
Why would the 400-grainer not do anything needing to be done ?
Definitely more fun to shoot a 400-grainer in a .458 WIN.



Rip ...

badboymelvin's 480-grain Woodleigh certainly deserves honor, here at THE MISSION.
480-grainer at 2150 fps is the true-classic .450 NE ballistics which the .458 WIN does so easily at 3.340" COL.
I have yet to finish up with some handloads for that bullet weight, next up whenever I get to a range,
public or private during the Covid-19 shutdown.

Sectional density drives expansion for any given velocity.
To limit expansion at higher velocity in a bonded-core/cup&core bullet of desired caliber,
make it lighter.
Further modifications such as the Protected Point of Woodleigh will strengthen the bullet further, for controlled expansion.
Pancaking at higher velocity will be limited by these two design factors.
This allows the higher impact velocity allowable with the 400-grainer (2500 fps) versus the 480-grainer (2200 fps).



Rip ...

Thanks RIP for all that work and commentary.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I don't know how many of you know Dan Schindler of Paragon School of Sporting Inc., but he is a Master Instructor in shotgun sports, as well as in rifle. He and I have corresponded for over a decade. More recently we've been discussing "medium bore" rifles, my current blog theme.

About a decade ago he was reading my "stuff" on the .458 Win Mag and had decided to take his to Alaska for a trophy black bear hunt. We discussed bullets and loads. Because of injury to his shoulder, he decided to use a "light load". Against my advice he chose the 265gr Cutting Edge Raptor, and was sure it would do the job. I wasn't so sure. Nonetheless, his load moved the 265 gr at 2650 fps. Despite it's poor BC, he flattened a 6'- 11" blackie with a single shot at 90 yards. His guide said it was dead before it hit the ground. He was right and I was to learn a lesson of how flexible a .458 WIN could really be. I think a monolithic 250gr at about 2700 - 2800 fps might be my next load for a bear! Recoil would only be about 28 ft-lbs from my rifle.

RIP has been promoting that, thanks RIP.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Has anyone tried Winchester 748 powder with the 500gr jacketed bullet? That data from Hodgdon looks awful soft. It doesn't say compressed at 73.0gr. and the pressure is pretty low.

quote:

Originally posted by admiral:
Has anyone tried Winchester 748 powder with the 500gr jacketed bullet? That data from Hodgdon looks awful soft. It doesn't say compressed at 73.0gr. and the pressure is pretty low.

I did back in the 1970s. Forget the load but full case with 500 grain Hornady.

I got good velocity with 4198 and Reloader 7 with 500 grain Hornady.

70 grains of an Australian powder (AR2201) which was just like 3031 did right on 2100 with 400 grain Speer and a bit under 2100 with 500 Hornady and 22" barrel. 70 grains of 4064 was right on 2000 with 400 grain Speer and just a touch under 2100 with 500 grain Hornady.

I never did much with 500 grainers because when I owned 458s which were two M70 Suoer Grades and Ruger No 1 I also had 460 Mark Vs.

quote:

Originally posted by admiral:
Has anyone tried Winchester 748 powder with the 500gr jacketed bullet? That data from Hodgdon looks awful soft. It doesn't say compressed at 73.0gr. and the pressure is pretty low.

In September, 2009, I did a test of six powders considered suitable for the .458 Win Mag firing the 500gr Hornady. They were specifically held to SAAMI COL at 3.34", and about max loads. The powders were: WW748, H335, AA2460, IMR4320, Varget and IMR4064. (I didn't do H4895 because I'd already tried it, and AA2230 wasn't available at the time of the test.

H335 and AA2460 were about equal and best. WW748 was the worst performer with a charge of 83 grains.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

This also should be added to the above:

In Jan/2010, I did an additional test at SAAMI COL of 3.34", from my 25" CZ550.

This time using 79 and 80 grs of H335, and 78 and 79 grs of H4895. Same Win brass and WLRM primers. Temp was 20F and -7C.

The H335 loads didn't record, but should have been about 2250 fps and 2275 fps.

The H4895 loads did record (for reasons unexplained): 78 grs @ 2247 fps and 79 grs at 2266 fps, corrected to MV.

On June 11/19, from my current #1 Ruger, I loaded 81 grs and 82 grs of H4895 under the 500 Speer seated at 3.625" and they gave:
81 grs = 2297 fps corrected to MV; and 82 grs = 2312 fps. I consider 81 grs to be best at that COL from my 24" Ruger.
Temp was +21C/70F.

For analysis by those who like to review data.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
This also should be added to the above:

In Jan/2010, I did an additional test at SAAMI COL of 3.34", from my 25" CZ550.

This time using 79 and 80 grs of H335, and 78 and 79 grs of H4895. Same Win brass and WLRM primers. Temp was 20F and -7C.

The H335 loads didn't record, but should have been about 2250 fps and 2275 fps.

The H4895 loads did record (for reasons unexplained): 78 grs @ 2247 fps and 78 grs at 2266 fps, corrected to MV.

On June 11/19, from my current #1 Ruger, I loaded 81 grs and 82 grs of H4895 under the 500 Speer seated at 3.625" and they gave:
81 grs = 2297 fps corrected to MV; and 82 grs = 2312 fps. I consider 81 grs to be best at that COL from my 24" Ruger.
Temp was +21C/70F.

For analysis by those who like to review data.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Those COL of 3.34 loads with H4895 would be pretty compressed?

With Reloader 7 which I found good and also used it in 222 and 223. I can't remember which way for sure, but Re 7 acted faster burning and I think it was in the 222/223 and in the 458 it acted a fair bit slower than 4198.

With the 400 grain Speer while I got top accuracy at 2000 and 2100 with 70 grains of 4064 and 3031 if I went to 2000 f/s with 4198, while pressure was fine accuracy was terrible and the bullets appeared to be coming apart. Those M70 Super Grades had what looked like very deep and sharp rifling and I think with 4198 the 400 Speers hit the rifling going faster. Maybe harder initial accaration as well.

Bob loads 500-grainers in the .458 WIN to longer COL than allowed in the SAAMI .458 Lott and gets velocities only dreamed of by the Lottites.
Makes perfect sense.

Mike implies we should use powders a mite slower than IMR-4198 in the .458 WIN for thin-jacketed 400-grain bullets meant for .45-70 velocities,
when we want them to go 2000-2100 fps MV.
I'll buy that too.

Winchester 748 powder:
I gave up on that in my .30-30 WCF reloading days when I found it very disappointing. Much slower than claimed and not even with good accuracy.
I took my last can of it out to the backyard and lit a match to a pile of it.
And there were rumors that a bad lot of W748 was the powder that clumped in the .458 WIN, causing squib loads.
That put me off of ball powders altogether for a while.
Then I discovered the Accurate Arms powders.




Only then do I move on to the 400-gr jacketed, monometal and cast bullets and 250-gr monometals,
for light-recoiling varmint loads.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
This also should be added to the above:

In Jan/2010, I did an additional test at SAAMI COL of 3.34", from my 25" CZ550.

This time using 79 and 80 grs of H335, and 78 and 79 grs of H4895. Same Win brass and WLRM primers. Temp was 20F and -7C.

The H335 loads didn't record, but should have been about 2250 fps and 2275 fps.

The H4895 loads did record (for reasons unexplained): 78 grs @ 2247 fps and 79 grs at 2266 fps, corrected to MV.

On June 11/19, from my current #1 Ruger, I loaded 81 grs and 82 grs of H4895 under the 500 Speer seated at 3.625" and they gave:
81 grs = 2297 fps corrected to MV; and 82 grs = 2312 fps. I consider 81 grs to be best at that COL from my 24" Ruger.
Temp was +21C/70F.

For analysis by those who like to review data.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Mike;

Regarding compressed loads: From experience I've learned that some stick powders can be compressed by 110% load density without problems. Some more and some less. That depends on the powder, the size of granules and burn rate. And burn rate depends on load density, primer and cartridge. The suggested burn rate changes under different conditions.

No, I've never found that 78 and 79 grains of H4895 is adversely compressed at 3.34" COL. But you must know your powder. I didn't start with loads like that. They were worked up. But I also started with H4895 in my first .458 Win Mag under the 500 Hornady -- a Ruger 77 with the tang safety and 22" barrel. That was a long time ago and not the same powder it is today (now made in your land).

In checking recent manuals, it's quite common to see some loads compressed up to 116% load density. Obviously, those are slower powders than "normal" for such cartridges - often seen in "magnums".

Over 40 years ago, when I started handloading a .30-06, I visited a shop where handloads for the .30-06 was being discussed. One gentleman behind the counter, older than I by several years, bluntly stated, "You can load as much IMR 4350 as possible into a .30-06 case, use a credit card to level it at the mouth, cram in a 180gr bullet and you're go to go." I didn't exactly try that, but he made his point nevertheless.

A corresponding friend of mine in Ohio has made several African Safaris. He also had been a US nation champion in long range (600 and 1000 yds) shooting of the military .30-06. He told me on a few occasions that he practised basically what the gentleman behind the counter told me in regard to the .30-06 and 180gr bullets; except that in the military rifles 173 gr was used.

I "overload" my 9.3 x 62 with a powder equivalent to the 4350s, except it's double base with more nitro. It is compressed to 109% density, and I get results that compare favorably with the 9.3 x 64 Brenneke factory load. It also exceeds CIP pressure and COL.

"Isn't that dangerous!" some will pontificate. No, at least not in the past ten years!

KNOW YOUR POWDER! and KNOW YOURSELF!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

I have certainly used plenty of compressed loads with stick powder but always prefered to avoid it in big bores. However, it is just a personal preference. Obviously seating a 264 bullet a 1/4" into the powder of a 264 is a different deal to seating a 458 bullet a further 1/4" into the powder of a 458.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Bob,

I have certainly used plenty of compressed loads with stick powder but always prefered to avoid it in big bores. However, it is just a personal preference. Obviously seating a 264 bullet a 1/4" into the powder of a 264 is a different deal to seating a 458 bullet a further 1/4" into the powder of a 458.

True.

But I'm speaking of particular powders, not just any powder. However that was a one and done trial using H4895. The hunting load with H4895 was developed on June 30/08. That was 80 grs H4895 at 2286 (corrected to MV) at 3.53" COL. That was in my CZ550.

At 3.53" COL it was compressed by 2/100" (0.020").

My present "hunting load" for the 500gr Speer GS is 81 grs H4895 at about 2300 fps. COL is 3.625" in the Ruger #1. That leaves 0.050" (5/100") empty space in my Hornady brass. Not only not compressed, but the powder is loose in the case. I could easily have done that in my CZ550, but in reality now in my #1 Ruger.

But I'll not be loading 78 - 79 grs H4895 under a 500gr at 3.34" COL. Yes, too much compression, though the case (WW) wasn't bulged or manifested any differences in chambering or extraction of the fired case. Instead, I used 78 grs H335 (no compression)at 3.34" COL for a test. My "hunting load", however, was 80 grs of H335 at 3.53" COL for 2249 fps in WW brass, WLRM primers, and temp +20C. That was not close to a compressed load. However, I needed to load 83 grs of H335 at that COL so the base of the 500 Hornady would be resting on the powder, with a Lee crimp to keep others in the long box from being pushed further into the case under recoil. I single loaded them. A cannelure tool would have fit the situation. Or, a bullet with multiple grooves such as NF. The main reason I seated the bullets long in the CZ was because of the long box and "freebore".

Regards,

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:


My present "hunting load" for the 500gr Speer GS is 81 grs H4895 at about 2300 fps. COL is 3.625" in the Ruger #1.

Bob,

Is that the Ruger 1 on top of your website. A good site by the way, I have looked at it plenty of times.