Interesting article.

The 45 Dupee looks a lot like the cartridge Blaser introduced, the 45 Blaser. It never caught on though.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Prior to the 458 Winchester was there any wildcat that was similar, that is, 2.5" belted case and 458 bullets.

James Watts said it was his .450 Watts Short that Winchester copied.
The Cal Pappas book is the only source I know of regarding that. The .450 Watts Magnum 2.85" of 1949 was shortened to 2.5" case length in the early 1950's according to James Watts,

The 270 Wby was Roy's first cab off the rank

Circa 1945?

and of course much earlier was the 275 H&H, so people had been playing with a 2.5" version of H&H belted case well before the 458.

OK

Obviously someone, somewhere, cut the 375 back and blew it out and necked it up but was there a wildcat with a name?

There was the "450 Barnes-Johnson Express" by Fred N. Barnes in the early 1950's.
He made bullets for James Watts and probably did his blown-out 2.5" and his blown-out 2.83" case, the .450 Barnes Supreme, after inspiration by Watts.
A 1958 advertising pamphlet/catalog "BARNES - - Custom Made Bullets and Precision Built Big Game Rifles" said this:
450-B-J Express
The most powerful of the B-J Line. Shoots a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 f.s. Works perfectly in any standard length action.
Rifles chambered for this cartridge will also shoot the new .458 Winchester factory cartridge.
While this is a so-called improved version of the .458 Winchester we chambered the .450 B-J several years before Winchester added the .458 to their line.
An extra recoil lug should be used on the 404 and the 450 to prevent splitting the stock from recoil.

It would seem a logical wilcat would have been a 2.5" version of the 450 Ackley Improved, so like a 458 Winchester Improved.

More from that 1958 pamphlet:
THE B-J EXPRESS LINE
Experts agree that the famous B-J Express Line of big-game cartridges is the best and most efficient of the shortened Magnum cartridges from 7mm to .450.
The case is identical in length and diameter of body in all calibers. All cases shown actual size. Body length is 2.125", shoulder angle is 35 degrees with .500" diameter.
I have a partial pdf of that pamphlet, missing the pictures.

Why was the 458 Winchester given such a long freebore? Was it to match a powder Winchester wanted to use. I think I read somewhere (many many many years ago ) that it was to reduce recoil.

No, it was just a stroke of Genius, no doubt coming through a seance in which the ghost of Oliver F. Winchester manifested and gave the instructions.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
The 45 Dupee looks a lot like the cartridge Blaser introduced, the 45 Blaser. It never caught on though.

Of course not, with the "Blaser" in its name, it was doomed.

Rip ...

Here is that first hit at 100 yards with the .458 Winchester Magnum Flanged,
a 487-grain Linotype bullet at about 1650 fps MV,
fired offhand with no sights and no forearm on the Ruger No.1, just point and shoot:



That is a very pleasant load.

Rip

Of all the possible slight variations of the .458 Win Mag, the one that most intrigues me is the .450 B-J Express (maybe because, as per Mike McGuire, it is logical?). As RIP pointed out above, it pre-dated the Winchester cartridge, but is something like an improved version of it. I once saw a drawing of the B-J Express case dimensions, so I know the drawing below is close to it, though not exact...My neck length is somewhat arbitrary. This improved .458 picks up about 5 grains of powder (right at 100 grains capacity), and rudimentary QL calculation comparisons holding all variables the same seem to indicate that 60-80 fps above the Winchester at the same pressures is attainable--more of a performance gain than the 450 Ackley has over the Lott. Alternately, reducing the pressures for tropical loads without losing Win Mag performance would be easy. The improved case is interesting because it looks like it has two belts--one 20 thousandths at the shoulder, and the other at the normal belt. I'd be tempted to run a reamer into my Win chamber if I could find one. FWIW for THE MISSION...

Look in good guys. I don't have any time to devote to the thread. But I get email updates once in a while.

CTF,

How is the house construction coming along?
Got a green roof yet?
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

Rip ...

bcelliott,

Thanks for the drawing of the .450 B-J Express. Excellent.
I cannot remember if any pictures of the B-J Express lineup were posted when we discussed it last.
I might have to do a search of this thread. Alzheimers might be setting in.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Of all the possible slight variations of the .458 Win Mag, the one that most intrigues me is the .450 B-J Express (maybe because, as per Mike McGuire, it is logical?). As RIP pointed out above, it pre-dated the Winchester cartridge, ...

2 or 3 years before 1956 would satisfy Frank N. Barnes claim of having it out "years" before the .458 WIN.
And 2 or 3 years, or less, after the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949 would also be satisfied by that claim.

... but is something like an improved version of it. I once saw a drawing of the B-J Express case dimensions, so I know the drawing below is close to it,

Surely very close.

though not exact...My neck length is somewhat arbitrary. This improved .458 picks up about 5 grains of powder (right at 100 grains capacity),

The same 5 grains of powder capacity can be added to the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.
by seating the bullet to only 0.120" longer COL, for any given bullet.

and rudimentary QL calculation comparisons holding all variables the same seem to indicate that 60-80 fps above the Winchester at the same pressures is attainable--more of a performance gain than the 450 Ackley has over the Lott.

Remember that QuickLOAD is worthless in dealing with throats. In any comparison of the .458 WIN with conventionally throated, larger capacity cases,
the latter are going to come up short.

Alternately, reducing the pressures for tropical loads without losing Win Mag performance would be easy.

Nowadays, 2200 fps with 500-grainer from a 24" barrel at 60,000 psi is actualized with the new powders.
That is all that was claimed for the .450 B-J Express in a 22" barrel at what pressure, with what throating, we do not know.
Truly .450 NE equivalent loads with 480-grain bullets in the .458 WIN
are going to be closer to 50,000 psi than 60,000 psi.
How high the pressure required for that velocity (2150 fps)
will depend on barrel chosen between 20" and 24" long.
That is THE NEW TROPICAL with a bolt action.
From my partial copy of the pamphlet/catalog here is the claim:

.458 B-J Express, 22" barrel
(note they called it ".458 B-J Express," as well as ".458 Winchester Imp." in the load data,
same data for two different cartridge names, three if you include the .450 B-J Express)
500-grain bullet ... 78.0 grains "4320" ... 2200 fps
No COL listed.
I'll get a scan of the 4 pages of that advertising that I have, if I have not done it already on this thread.
Alzheimers!


The improved case is interesting because it looks like it has two belts--one 20 thousandths at the shoulder, and the other at the normal belt. I'd be tempted to run a reamer into my Win chamber if I could find one. FWIW for THE MISSION...

More later on why the .458 Winchester Magnum Improved is not so cool as the .458 Winchester Magnum Unimproved.

Rip ...

Page 56 of this thread is where we did this before:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...691088242#9691088242

Some highlights from that page:







Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

More later on why the .458 Winchester Magnum Improved is not so cool as the .458 Winchester Magnum Unimproved.

Rip ...

I'm always looking for reasons why I don't need to do extra work to improve something if it doesn't need improving.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
To continue the book review of THE GUN DIGEST 6th edition-1952, here is an historic excerpt (pages 172- 177)
Winchester's "Forgotten" Cartridges, 1866-1900 by Paul Foster.
If you cannot read through the Winchester logo obscuring the print,
HOLD YOUR HORSES until I get some detail/magnified views to follow the whole page scans:

...

Might be easier to read through the Winchester Horseman logo with these:

Gun Digest was ahead of its time, RIP, in anticipating modern desk-top publishers and throwing out the first rule of typography: when printing over graphics or reversing the type, use bold face.

Sorry, but even when the type was blown up, I could not read some of the most important words. I don't suppose you could transcribe the lines or paras beneath the darkest bits?

My RCBS Cartridge Designer algorithm suggests that the .450 BJE is about 9.3% bigger than the .458 WIN.
If the .458 WIN has about 95 grains of H2O gross
then the .450 BJE has about 103.8 grains of H2O.
That is at least generous to the .450 BJE, not a "misunderestimation."
If true, to equal the .450 BJE net case capacity with a suitable bullet,
the .458 WIN has to have COL lengthened from 3.340" to 3.551".
Add 0.221" to SAAMI max COL. It is that easy.
This is regardless of any throating differences, assumes both are throated same.

3.551" COL works great in a Winchester M70 with +3.6" box.
One of my factory-opened Whitworth Mausers has a +3.7" box length.
They really should have stopped at +3.6".
Just goes to show that +3.6" is easy with a standard M98.
Routinely done with a standard M70 with blocked box, just unblock the box at the rear.

That tiny little shoulder of about 0.0095" step at 35* angle per side is nowhere near as effective as the belt step of 0.0095" at 90* angle.
The 19-thou" Neck-1 to shoulder diameter difference will add up in a staggered stack magazine.
It will change the feeding mechanics and magazine capacity to a small degree,
but not so much as with the .458 WinRuger.
I prefer the devil I know.
Anything the SAAMI .458 Lott can do, the .458 WIN LongCOL can do better.
Just use the same length action as needed for the red-faced .458 Lott.
Keep the .458 WIN in chains with a mere +3.4" box, and it still beats the .450 NE ballistics, no sweat.

The Barnes "450 Magnum" is of the "Barnes Supreme Line."
Barnes claimed 2400 fps for 500-grainer from a 24" barrel.
They also called it the .450 Barnes Supreme.
I have one of those with a 22" barrel and never loaded it past about 2200 fps.
It should be same with a 450 Ackley, equally exaggerated in the lore.

I notice that the .416 Barnes Supreme is not listed in the 1958 "brochure." It must have come along after 1958?
I have one of those too, acquired just months before the .416 Remington hit the streets.

I also noticed the loading data for the .35 Brown-Whelen, a regular offering by Barnes in 1958. Yep, I have one of those too.
I never got the wild ballistics everyone claimed for that one either.

Not so for the .458 WIN, it never disappoints.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
My RCBS Cartridge Designer algorithm suggests that the .450 BJE is about 9.3% bigger than the .458 WIN.
If the .458 WIN has about 95 grains of H2O gross
then the .450 BJE has about 103.8 grains of H2O.
That is at least generous to the .450 BJE, not a "misunderestimation.".
If true, to equal the .450 BJE net case capacity with a suitable bullet,
the .458 WIN has to have COL lengthened from 3.340" to 3.551".
Add 0.221" to SAAMI max COL. It is that easy.
This is regardless of any throating differences, assumes both are throated same.

3.551" COL works great in a Winchester M70 with +3.6" box.
One of my factory-opened Whitworth Mausers has a +3.7" box length.
They really should have stopped at +3.6".
Just goes to show that +3.6" is easy with a standard M98.
Routinely done with a standard M70 with blocked box, just unblock the box at the rear.

That tiny little shoulder of about 0.0095" step at 35* angle per side is nowhere near as effective as the belt step of 0.0095" at 90* angle.
The 19-thou" Neck-1 to shoulder diameter difference will add up in a staggered stack magazine.
It will change the feeding mechanics and magazine capacity to a small degree,
but not so much as with the .458 WinRuger.
I prefer the devil I know.
Anything the SAAMI .458 Lott can do, the .458 WIN LongCOL can do better.
Just use the same length action as needed for the red-faced .458 Lott.
Keep the .458 WIN in chains with a mere +3.4" box, and it still beats the .450 NE ballistics, no sweat.

The Barnes "450 Magnum" is of the "Barnes Supreme Line."
Barnes claimed 2400 fps for 500-grainer from a 24" barrel.
They also called it the .450 Barnes Supreme.
I have one of those with a 22" barrel and never loaded it past about 2200 fps.
It should be same with a 450 Ackley, equally exaggerated in the lore.

I notice that the .416 Barnes Supreme is not listed in the 1958 "brochure." It must have come along after 1958?
I have one of those too, acquired just months before the .416 Remington hit the streets.

I also noticed the loading data for the .35 Brown-Whelen, a regular offering by Barnes in 1958. Yep, I have one of those too.
I never got the wild ballistics everyone claimed for that one either.

Not so for the .458 WIN, it never disappoints.

Rip ...

I just wanted to reiterate this line, RIP,
"...Keep the .458 WIN in chains with a mere +3.4" box, and it still beats the .450 NE ballistics, no sweat"
but a whole new bit of your post following that line, somehow invisible in your original, came out.

Now, mysteriously, your original post has updated. Did anyone else have a short version of that original?

Paul, that is because I was ruminating and still editing my bloviation, still typing same time as you. Real time.
You can fix it if you like, or don't.
The more replies the merrier for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Paul, that is because I was ruminating and still editing my bloviation, still typing same time as you. Real time.
You can fix it if you like, or don't.
The more replies the merrier for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

I should understand that, RIP, since I do it all the time.

Yep, this is all that matters:

Keep the .458 WIN in chains with a mere +3.4" box, and it still beats the .450 NE ballistics, no sweat.

Rip ...

Do I recall it is simply a certain number of posts, not the size of each, that makes up a chapter?

In case you've overlooked it, I posted one seeking clarity on the early days of Winchester. I was really enjoying that stuff but couldn't read some of it.

Paul,
I will get out the DVD and read it off one computer, best I can, and type it onto another computer.
That is a very important page.
It got printed to paper in the original book, with 1957 Technology for the 1958 edition.
Then it aged for close to 60 years.
Then someone scanned the page to a pdf file and it got processed into the 3-Disc set for 1944 to 2015, 69 editions of GUN DIGEST in 71 years.
Then I printed that page onto new paper.
Then I scanned it to a jpeg file and uploaded it here.
I am sure some of the legibility has been lost in translation, and it probably wasn't that good to start with. BLACK ON BLACK!
If there was ever a color or shade difference in the overprint versus the print, it got lost in a black & white pdf.

My earliest paper copy of GUN DIGEST is the
15th Anniversary 1961 GUN DIGEST Deluxe Edition

It is all black and white except for a sepia-tone and white section at the back, which is a reproduction of the 1893-95 Mauser Catalog.

I will also look at the disc to see if sepia comes off as grey in the pdf.
Maybe there was a sepia overprint and black print.
Apologies.
I will sort it out, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Oh, yes, any post of even a single emoji or punctuation mark counts as one of the 40 replies needed to turn the page of the thread.
I will add three more replies with the "one-photo-per-reply" technique to demonstrate this,
for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Excerpts for book review of THE PERFECT SHOT FOR DINOSAURS, by Phil Massaro, follow below: Front and back covers and one special page from this handy pocket-sized field guide.

Book review: Great book. Funny too.

Just one of 192 pages, and I forgot to include the fold-in flaps of the covers.
I'll fix that and milk this cow for two more replies.
The special one, page 114:



Rip ...

Looking at that stuff about the .450BJE, it has occurred to me to ask: is the 458WM generally chambered with any more care to prevent excess headspace than other magnums, since there's no shoulder for the handloader to work on, or would that compromise reliability "in a tight spot"?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Looking at that stuff about the .450BJE, it has occurred to me to ask: is the 458WM generally chambered with any more care to prevent excess headspace than other magnums, since there's no shoulder for the handloader to work on, or would that compromise reliability "in a tight spot"?

No more caution is necessary than for any H&H-belted cartridge.
The H&H belt is fully competent in headspacing function.
A little slop is good for combat function.
The throat of the .458 Winchester Magnum cures all ills.

The .450 BJE shoulder is essentially nonfunctional. It relies upon the belt for headspacing.
It would be awful without the belt.

Rip ...

Paul,

Here it is, also edited into previous page of THE MISSION, at start of original scans of the article:




Rip ...

I was curious so I looked up the bloke who started this thread, Tanoose, he last posted on AR at 21 November 2017 23:17, that would be Sydney Australia time.

For the Mission;
In 1993 our family was watching Jurassic Park and I leaned over and said to my wife, "give me my 458 and I'll stack all the TRex's you want in the yard."
I wasn't until my son born years later and grew a bit, watching it on TV in our home, that I had someone who could understand, laugh and Hi Five me when I made the same comment. In a full Frontal Charge, when they open their mouth and roar... 500 grains of solid right to the confluence of spine and walnut brain baby.

Fury01,
I believe you would be better off with your .458 WIN than the guy toting a 15-pound 600 NE DR.
For sure if you hit what you are aiming for and use the correct bullet.
Penetration will be much better with the .458 WIN than with the lumbering .620-cal/900-grainer at 1950 fps from 28"-long barrels!
Antique .600 NE rifles with 24" barrels have been known to shoot to regulation at barely 1800 fps
for the supposedly "110-gr Cordite/900-gr Bullet" regulation.
The flatter the nose of those old RN-FMJ solids, the better for staying on course.

Only thing I can think of to improve on your light and handy .458 WIN is maybe a 3-barrel rifle that fires 3 shots at once
to triangulate on the "foramen magnum shot" you are talking about.

Maybe a rifle that could do a 3-round burst from a single barrel and is shorter and lighter than that .600 double rifle?

Thus we revive the "Gun for Dinosaur" schtick, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Thanks for the new text, RIP. I've read it twice and must now go back to continue the story.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks for the new text, RIP. I've read it twice and must now go back to continue the story.

My pleasure, Paul. Any of your further comments on the article would be appreciated, for THE MISSION.

Ha! The 3-shot burst of photos got us to page 151 of THE MISSION,
and sambarman338 was caught in the triangulation.

The Nemo Omen .458 WIN may be merely a semi-auto,
but for dinosaur hunting, the selective fire option should be considered by the manufacturer.
Good selling point.
Or just keep pulling that trigger until the dinosaur goes down.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I was curious so I looked up the bloke who started this thread, Tanoose, he last posted on AR at 21 November 2017 23:17, that would be Sydney Australia time.

Reading your post, Mike, I had a look back, too, and realised that my answer to Ray Atkinson's post also went right back there.

The only explanation I can think of is that because my son reformated my computer recently, AR was suddenly new to it and, when I hit the icon, it opened at the first page rather than the last one.

So, the reason Ray has not replied to my post is probably because he hasn't looked in here for ages.

Sorry about that.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks for the new text, RIP. I've read it twice and must now go back to continue the story.

My pleasure, Paul. Any of your further comments on the article would be appreciated, for THE MISSION.

Ha! The 3-shot burst of photos got us to page 151 of THE MISSION,
and sambarman338 was caught in the triangulation.

The Nemo Omen .458 WIN may be merely a semi-auto,
but for dinosaur hunting, the selective fire option should be considered by the manufacturer.
Good selling point.
Or just keep pulling that trigger until the dinosaur goes down.

Rip ...

I think that for dinosaur "fear-lizards' you need the highest SD possible and flat-nose solids.
So .416 at 450 grains is probably a good option, or maybe a 575-600grn in .458.
But do we need a minimum 8+ feet of penetration for the current geo-age?

416Tanzan,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
.416/450-gr SD = 0.371
.458/550-gr SD = 0.375

Surely no higher SD than that is warranted.
The longer bullets are inherently less stable than the shorter ones at any given spin rate.
The heavier ones go slower and spin slower, from a given twist rate.
So you need to up the velocity or twist rate with the heavies,
might take a more specialized "Gun for Dinosaur"
than the SAAMI standard .458 WIN specs of the NEMO OMEN.

I am thinking Woodleigh's heaviest .458 HSS might be the optimum for the terrible lizards, using a SAAMI .458 WIN: 480-grainer.

.458/480-gr SD = 0.327
That is a little better than a 404 Jeffery with 400-grainer.
.423/400-gr SD = 0.319

The best penetration I have seen on game was with a .500 A2, impact velocity being in the 2300 to 2400 fps range, for the GSC FN,
Texas Heart Shot exited throat of bison. DRT.
A second shot after he was dead, and stretched out on the ground, into the other butt cheek, for bullet testing purposes, also exited throat:
.510/570-gr SD = 0.313

The best penetration I have seen on the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo was with the S&H .395/330-gr FN brass solid, impact about 2800 fps:
.395/330-gr SD = 0.302

Seems like there might be more than one way to penetrate a dinosaur than with high SD alone.
Proper nose shape of brass solid, 2400 fps MV,
and greater than 0.3 SD might be adequate.

Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized (brass) Solids are offered in these weights for the .458: 480, 450, 400, and 325 grains
I laughed when I saw that last one in the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual.

Top loads with the .458 WIN LongCOL could surely beat anything that the Woodleigh manual shows for the .458 Lott.
They only give data for the 400-gr and 450-gr HSS ("HYDRO") in the .458 Lott:

.458/480-gr SD = 0.327

.458/450-gr SD = 0.306 ... 2480 fps with 85.0 grains (compressed) of Hodgdon Benchmark (same as ADI Bench Mark 2)

.458/400-gr SD = 0.272 ... 2570 fps with 87.0 grains (compressed) of H4895 (same as AR2206H)

.458/325-gr SD = 0.221

No barrel length was specified for the above, assume the usual 24", like they said for the test barrel of the 450 Rigby Rimless.

Big boo-boo found on page 240 of the .458 Lott section of the Woodleigh manual:
Case capacity of the .458 Lott IS NOT 144 grains of water,
and case capacity of the .450 Ackley IS NOT 148 grains.
The .460 Weatherby ain't that big!

I suspect the .458 WIN LongCOL could get 2400 fps with the 480-grain HYDRO in a 24" barrel.
That might be a best compromise for a bolt-action GUN FOR DINOSAUR.

So we need a DINOSAUR BULLET TRAP for testing purposes.
And go see what Doc M said about the Woodleigh HYDRO penetration in his test media ...

Rip ...

Uh-oh.





.458/450-gr Woodleigh HYDRO brass compared to North Fork .458/450-gr FPS copper: North Fork wins for penetration.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/2861098911/p/86

The Woodleigh HYDRO was more like a Cup-Point,
less penetration than with the North Fork FPS.
Still a great CUP POINT type performance
from the Woodleigh HYDRO.

The .458/480-grain HYDRO shot right through a feral camel bull with a geyser of blood erupting from the entrance wound, and a big, ragged exit hole,
according to Geoff McDonald's 2007 first outing of the bullet with a 450 Ackley.
Soon after the .458/480-gr HYDRO exited a cow buffalo on a raking shot.
Then a north-bound mature bull buffalo was given the double tap in the south end with the .416/400-gr HYDRO. Both bullets were found embedded in the bones at base of neck.
Maybe Geoff was using Dave Lindner's .416 Rigby on that hunt with Lindner along, providing further testing.
That is on page 17 of the Woodleigh manual.

Moving on to CEB brass FN bullets then, my plan all along for dinosaur, and THE MISSION ...

Rip ...

Brass Safari Solids: 450-gr on left, 500-grain on right are only options from CEB advisable for dinosaur hunting with a .458:




I have to trim the .458 WIN brass down to 2.485" length to use the 450-gr CEB bullet to full potential.
That is kind of a mess, but not as bad as what you get into with many other bullets in the .458 Lott:
0.3" longer brass in a 0.2" longer magazine box.



Dang! That funny band arrangement leaves little option for COL. Never did like that about those CEB Safari Solids.
I like the Woodleigh Hydros much better in regard to picking your COL.
They are still in the running for dinosaur bullets.

Rip ...