Imho, that rifle needs a brake

Where did the rest of my post disappear to ?
We need to explore the lighter monometal bullets more. Perhaps this coming winter I can get with it. As I'm packing away all my loading gear for our move north in a few weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
RIP, are you warming to the .458 WinRuger? If you load it longCOL and use the Win throat, could it be considered a modern homage to the Win Mag, or would it be counted disloyal to your first love?
I am still ambivalent as heck about the .458 WinRuger.
Funny thing is that any of my .458 WIN rifles could be converted to .458 WinRuger
by just running my .395 Ruger reamer (with proper pilot) into the chamber.
Rusty McGee did it once, he might agree to do it again.
If I ever resolve the ambivalence, a purpose-made reamer and custom dies will be needed.
Until then I will keep building .458 WIN LongCOL rifles.
You're the only person I know who has actually chambered a rifle for the .458 Ruger. I only mocked it up years ago using QuickDesign and QL and found out that it should potentially yield 100 fps more than the Win Mag at the same COL. It sure is a good-looking cartridge, but is it worth it to clean up a chamber and get the assorted dies, etc for 100 fps?

To the nearest 0.1 grain of water in case capacity, it is written:
.458 Winchester Magnum, 2.500" brass: 95.0 grains
.458/.416 Ruger, 2.580" brass: 105.1 grains
.458 Lott 2.800" brass: 107.5 grains
Each extra 0.25" of COL will add 10.4 grains of water capacity to any of them:
A .458" diameter cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water per inch of length.
Some .458 WIN LongCOL loads will effectively beat the .458 Lott in case capacity by about 5 grains of water.
Add to that the throat effects on pressure relief, with throat also being how the LongCOL is possible,
and it is easy to see how a .458 WIN LongCOL beats a SAAMI .458 Lott.
I remain ambivalent about the .458 WinRuger.


I do think you're right about the Ruger case having enough shoulder. All you've done is move the 0.02" Win Mag belt up the case to form a shoulder, and if twenty thousandths headspaces at the back side, 27 thousandths should work at the front with a sharp enough shoulder.

A purpose made reamer for the .458 WinRuger would specify a shoulder diameter to neck-1 diameter difference of 0.030", 15 thou per side.
and a shoulder semi-angle of 30 degrees (cone angle of 60 degrees).
If a thirty-thirty shoulder ain't adequate,
then I'll eat ground crow made into a meat loaf,
with ketchup, mustard and brown sugar topping added for the last 10 minutes of oven baking.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
It ain't a Bergstutzen, but my Bockbüchsflinte, 12 ga. over 7X65R SE vom Hofe (7mm/9.3X74R) has an full length insert barrel in 6X52R Bretschneider (6mm/5.6X52R) and an extra Bockdoppelbüchse set of barrels in 9.3X74R. That combined with my Bockdoppelbüchse in .450 C&W (.450/.375 H&H Flanged Magnum) makes a pretty good two gun battery. Or you could combine it with my .500 NE Bockdoppelbüchse with extra Bockdoppelflinte set of barrels in 12 gauge.

Bill,

Momma is getting better,
I want to see your new .500 NE "Bockdoppelbuchse" sometime after I have studied up on the German nomenclature.
I still can't type the oomlau or whatever you call it.
Did they teach you that German rifle stuff in grad school?

Rip ...

CTF,

Glad to see your typing fingers have not frozen off.



Rip ...

upside down look at the laser pointer may be good for the first 100 yds

so far it's been a challenge to get it to stay in mount more en 2-3 shots

we added one pound to the stock today shot it a bit and will add about one more pound to top it of at a very comfortable 11 pounds and 500 grains of bullet running along at a nominal 2,150 fps

going to keep this one under the seat in the pickup

Bells & whistles!
LED flashlights & lasers.
Perfect on a .458 WIN truckgun or Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly PH rifle.
See SUCCESSFUL HUNTER May-June 2009, pp. 10-11, "Don't Get Left in the Dark" by Phil Shoemaker.
Phil embedded a 4-inch piece of Picatinny rail under the barrel, half inside, half sticking out in front of the forend tip.
I gotta do some of those,
and use it for the front sling attachment too.
Lots of lights and lasers come with Weaver style mounts for AR-15 and handgun
Some for handguns are tiny and light enough that they might stay on the rifle and be good for 25-50 yards.
Your 3-ring circus there is a big one, good to 100 yards at night?
Meanwhile, Phil is heading for Africa with Ol'Ugly, the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
It ain't a Bergstutzen, but my Bockbüchsflinte, 12 ga. over 7X65R SE vom Hofe (7mm/9.3X74R) has an full length insert barrel in 6X52R Bretschneider (6mm/5.6X52R) and an extra Bockdoppelbüchse set of barrels in 9.3X74R. That combined with my Bockdoppelbüchse in .450 C&W (.450/.375 H&H Flanged Magnum) makes a pretty good two gun battery. Or you could combine it with my .500 NE Bockdoppelbüchse with extra Bockdoppelflinte set of barrels in 12 gauge.

Bill,

Momma is getting better,
I want to see your new .500 NE "Bockdoppelbuchse" sometime after I have studied up on the German nomenclature.
I still can't type the oomlau or whatever you call it.
Did they teach you that German rifle stuff in grad school?

Rip ...

Lacking a response from xausa, RIP, may I suggest that if you can't type an umlaut, steal one, as I have just done. if that's too much trouble, just type an e after the letter you want it on.

An exception, I understand, is the Swiss word Müesli - they like it both ways

sambarman338,

Thanks for the spelling lesson.

Now I shall pretend that I am working up some loads for Selous, with paper-patched 530-grainers in the .45-100 Sharps WT.
Starting off with something to mimic the .461 Gibbs might bring a chuckle to the Happy Hunting Ground.

Rip ...

RIP,

We have the Umlaut in English, too, we just spell it differently: instead of Maus-Mäuse, Mann-Männer we say mouse-mice, man-men. And no, I didn't pick up my firearms vocabulary in grad school. Most of it originated in books like Lampel-Marholdt Waffen Lexikon.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for your continuing efforts to teach me to type in German.
It is hopeless.
I might have been 99th percentile in math and science, before Sometimer's Disease set in,
but in linguistics and musical ability,
once an ass, always an ass.

I am dropping all pretense of italics and umlaut usage with German words.
The French may still get italics since it sounds so funny.
I did have two years of Classical Latin, reading, writing, and enough pronunciation to know it is very different from Church Latin.
"Veni, vidi, vicci" should be pronounced:
"Waynee, widdee, wickee" sort of German like.
not
"Veenee, viddee, veechee" which is too Italian-like for my pronunciation tendencies.

Just before moving on to page 131, Merkel's Bergstutzen:

https://www.merkel-die-jagd.de...double-rifles/bs-b4/

And the Krieghoff Bergstutzen:

https://www.krieghoff.de/jagdw...ltra-20-bergstutzen/

The 6.5x68R Schuler is about 18% bigger in case capacity than the .256 Selous N.E. 3-Inch.

Rip ...

A Memorial Day 25-Shot Salute for the "Tomb of the Known Master Sergeant" ...

Red coating
White paper
Blued steel

RIP
Is there any coating that you could put on the mold that would hold up to a pour and then bond with the lead bullet? That would be interesting and maybe look pretty cool.
Also... what do you Think about putting thin strips of copper tubing where the driving bands are in the mold so that when you cast it it will have bands of copper to engage the rifling and the rest would be lead. For example, three eights inch tubing has an outside diameter of 1/2 inch so if you had a mold for your 500 Smith and Wesson you could put copper driving bands in there that would perfectly fit those bullets. The rest of the bullet could be a bore rider design with either a gas check on the back end or another piece of tubing. Old large diameter munitions I’ve seen were steel with a few copper bands to engage the rifling and seal the gases and this would be pretty much the same. Benefits? Higher velocities and less fouling.

boom stick,
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.
I am going to have to think about your homemade bullet technology a bit before making a bigger fool of myself.

Back to topic:

The difference in firing these in a 1:20" twist .45-100 Sharps WT versus a .458 WIN with 1:14" twist should be interesting.

The .458 WIN loads with same bullets would be done the same way except COL would come out 0.1" shorter with the 2.5" brass instead of 2.6" brass, of course.

My next 25-shot salute will be done with the .458 WIN and same bullets and AA-5744.

Regarding modern hunting loads with state-of-the-art bullets and powders, the .458 WIN has been proven supreme, the Chuck Norris of cartridges.

Previuous cast bullet tests in my 1:14"-twist .458 WIN showed best results when velocity was kept down to not much over 1400 fps,
with plain-base, powder-coat painted, hard alloy (Linotype) 487-grain "Government" bullet (Lyman mould for 500-grain RN of softer lead alloy),
sized LARGE at .461".
COL with that bullet was OK from 3.375" to 3.500",
take your pick:



The latest lead bullet loads in the .45-100 Sharps WT, ballistic twin of the .458 WIN,
ought to run from about 1500 fps to 1900 fps,
by SWAG.
Accuracy?
An extra paper wrap to bring diameter up to 0.461"?

Rip ...

I think some shells were cast then a copper driving band attached.

Perhaps fewer wide bands or a single shank jacket may be better with a crimped front band.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Red coating
White paper
Blued steel

I believe the tune goes:

. . . rednecks, white socks and blue-ribbon beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3iVHxP8FQ

boom stick,

I admire your industriousness in making plans for me to develop artillery-style projectiles,
but right now I would rather stick to paper and lead,
or powder-coat paint and lead alloy,
or maybe ...

Hey, how about if I push a .458" bullet through a .452" Lee sizer and paper patch that?
Vary the paper thickness so the two-wrap will make the bullet from .459" to .461" diameter.
Or powder-coat a .452" bullet to get it up to .453",
then wrap it same as my slicks above,
ought to come out about .460" diameter, maybe even .461" diameter?

Hard alloy, powder-coat painted AND paper-patched to .461" diameter, might allow high velocity and little fouling.
Might clean the barrel with each shot.

Maybe simply powder-coat paint the cup-based, lead slicks and paper-patch them up to .460" or .461"?
White-collared Red Death.
The possibilities are many.

Rip ...

416Tanzan,

I never heard that song before, thanks for the cultural enrichment.
I gotta get out more often.

Just remembered I never slugged the barrel of Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger, the former .45/70 Govt, now a .45-100 Sharps WT. Will do.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

I never heard that song before, thanks for the cultural enrichment.
I gotta get out more often.

Just remembered I never slugged the barrel of Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger, the former .45/70 Govt, now a .45-100 Sharps WT. Will do.

Rip ...

Wow, and you're from Kaintuk!

I'd recommend picking up a PBR: before this memorial weekend before slugging your barrel. It may not be the best beer, but it's drinkable and a part of Americana, beer and song. Hey, pombe (unfiltered African local brew) is drinkable, too, tasty but different.

416Tanzan,

I cannot explain it, not knowing about that 1973 hit.
I do know all about PBR, would always ask for it at the local pub, until I found this:



Shiner Bock!

Rip ...

The factory Ruger No.1 .45-70 Government that was re-chambered to .45-100 SWT was slugged.
Groove diameter = 0.459"
8-groove, 1:20" twist.
Barrel length 22".

SAAMI spec for the .45-70 Govt is for .450" bore diameter minimum, and .456" groove diameter minimum.
Throat is a very short and abrupt leade-only affair.
Brass maximum length is 2.105" from breech face, neck diameter is 0.4800" maximum at end of brass.
Chamber minimum length is 2.1099" from breech face, and chamber minimum diameter is 0.4812" at start of bevel down to leade,
on a 12*45' angle (that is semi-angle, so 25*30* cone angle) from there on through the leade.
Leade diameter is specified at a distance of 2.1458" minimum from breech face: 0.465" minimum.
This leade tapers down to bore diameter of 0.450" minimum at a distance of 2.1789" from breech face.

So the SAAMI .45-70 Government throat is like a forcing cone that is short and abrupt.
Going from .4812" diameter at end of chamber to .450" bore diameter over a distance of 0.069".
SHORT THROAT!

Bob Mitchel re-chambered his .45-70 Government to ".45-70 Long Throat" abbreviated: .45-70 LT.
He will have to explain how this was done.

If I did the .45-70 Government with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum Throat,
I would call it the ".45-70 Government Deep Throat" abbreviated: .45-70 GDP

Rip ...

It is easy to see how the .45-70 LT could get close to SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum Ballistics:

It is also easy to see how the .45-70 SWT can deliver a 500-grain TSX at +2300 fps.

And this is much more fun for shooter,
a sure thing for accurate 487-grainer at 1400 fps:



I need to speed that load up and see how fast it can go with suitable accuracy.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Copy that. Splitting frog hairs...point being, a similar bullet diameter of the more common 458. Makes me want to hunt with a super high SD hard cast 458 at Mach 1.16.
I wish I had some of his ammo to measure and retronostalgize.

Funny I didn't think of it, but if you really want to tap into the spirit of Selous with a .450 bore cartridge, look no further than the 500/450 No.2 Musket cartridge!
It's very much a twin to the Gibbs 461 No.1 cartridge but utilizing a slightly smaller diameter bullet.
These cases, made from 50-90 Sharps brass will be loaded with black and the .459" 480gr paper patched bullet for my 1881 W.R. match rifle.
A modernized smokeless version in a rechambered Ruger No.1 would be the hot ticket!

https://www.tapatalk.com/group...-2-musket-t5053.html

Pretty sweet idea.
I wonder how strong that brass is?

Well, since the chamber will be cut to this cartridge, one could use the rim thickness of the 470 or 500 Nitro Express and form these from that brass.
You would lose some volume as the base would be much thicker than the original BP cases but that would be little concern as I am thinking it would exceed the volume of the 45/70 by some margin.
The 500/450 No.3 Nitro Express!

boom stick,

Dam, son, you question the strength of Starline .50-90 brass?
How would you like to have this kid's name?



Starline brass is great stuff.

Thanks for the link on the .500/.450 No.2 Musket.
The chamber drawing shows a "forcing cone throat,"
leade only, starting at 0.486" diameter and reducing to .450" bore diameter over a run of 0.617".
Meant for paper-patched bullets with that throating.

Rip ...

Jim Bell made some 470 NE "solid" bullets with copper drive bands attached to a nickle-plated steel jacket of great thickness, with a lead core exposed at the base.
Complex.
Ought to warm the cockles of boom stick's heart.
The sectioned B.E.L.L. case below is the same one shown previously, above.



I want not for any other flanged 450-bore than the .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throat 2.6-Inch.
However, after shooting the 22"-barreled, 7.25-pound Ruger No.1, hopefully tomorrow, I might want a longer barreled and heavier one.

Until then, I should stick to .461 Gibbs #1 and .450 #2 Musket ballistics:
480-grain bullet with 76 grains of BP for 1300 fps.
500-grain bullet with 52 grains of IMR-3031 for 1500 fps.

Rip ...