Here is the wrong way to fire-form .410/.404 JRNE,
using a brand new Norma .404 JRNE case necked down to .410,
a 210-grain .410-caliber pistol bullet
an F215 primer
a medium pressure charge of fast powder like H4198 (about 50,000 psi)
and a Ruger No. 1 factory rifle for .450/.400 NE 3-Inch:

It worked beautifully until the third shot:

I think the firing pin blow drove the case over the Ruger No.1 extractor and deeper into the chamber than proper, the very weak shoulder wedging deeper into the chamber neck.
Yet the round fired right on time as the cartridge was moving forward, allowing a stretch in two directions, snapping off the brand new, Norma case head as you see.

Something extruded out around the primer pocket.
Is that primer cup "foil" or brass?
The rifle's breech face and chamber were not visibly damaged.
Maybe the ignition was delayed and something akin to a "detonation" instead of a controlled burn?

The rifle that the fire-formed brass is used in is a CZ 550 Magnum, with the better-stopping Mauser Claw extractor.
But I did not have that rifle when I started fire-forming its brass,
hence the Ruger No.1 in .400 S. Jeffery aka .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.
The CZ chamber matches the .400 S. Jeffery except for a 1/8" shorter chamber neck due to the shorter .404 Jeffery case.
Hence no headspacing on the Case mouth in the Ruger No.1 either.

I could probably get away with the "wrong method" of fire-forming in the CZ 550 Magnum, if headspace is maintained by the extractor.
But I would not risk it.
Necking up the .404 Jeffery to .458 and then necking it down to .410 (as shown initially above, for a double shoulder fire-forming load)
works even in a Ruger No.1, with bullets or Cream-O'-Wheat.

I guess that the .410/.404 JRNE with weak-angled (7*35') though broad shoulder, is as close as I will ever get to headspacing on an extractor, in the CZ 550 Magnum.

This does suggest that use of the .404 Jeffery in anything but a MAUSER M98, Winchester M70, or CZ 550 Magnum, Dakota 76, etc.,
any action with non-claw extractor, might be a bad idea.
A pushfeed or Ruger No.1:
This is the only weakness of the .404 Jeffery cartridge I can think of,
the weak-angled (8*30') and not so broad shoulder, might drive deeper into the chamber if not stopped by the extractor.

Take your pick,
.404 Jeffery "Perfection"
or .458 WIN PERFECTION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Here is the wrong way to fire-form .410/.404 JRNE,
using a brand new Norma .404 JRNE case necked down to .410,
a 210-grain .410-caliber pistol bullet
an F215 primer
a medium pressure charge of fast powder like H4198 (about 50,000 psi)
and a Ruger No. 1 factory rifle for .450/.400 NE 3-Inch:

Giraffe necks.
I don't care if the 404 was a favorite caliber in the past. That neck is not a good design. Surely something better could be done for a 3.4" magazine. H m m m . . .

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

The SAAMI .458 Lott is doomed.

Long live the .458 Ruger.

I prefer .458 WIN,
even above the .458/.416 Ruger-Winchester-Throated.
A 3.6" COL with the .458 WIN in a Winchester M70 is really quite enough.
It removes all the fussiness of having to trim the .458 Lott brass shorter to make some .458 bullets fit the box.
And 3.6" COL with those same bullets in the .458 WIN allows the .458 WIN to beat the .458 Lott in any pressure/velocity contest with 450-gr to 600-grain bullets.
The only possible advantage for the SAAMI .458 Lott is with lightest bullets,
and the .458 WIN does pretty good with those too, even inside of 3.4" COL.

True that a .458/.416 Ruger-WT will allow loss of more snot and enamel on both ends of the rifle,
at a minor cost of more crowded magazine stack,
and it can also be used in a 3.4", 3.6", or 3.8" magazine box.
However, the .458 WIN knocks snot and enamel plenty good, on both ends of the rifle, as Alf has vouched.

Rip ...

Though that 530 grains of lead has a round instead of hexagonal cross-section,
and has an Alexander "The Greatest" Henry twist.
That's a wrap.

Since Alex Henry pioneered the .450 Boxer-Henry cartridge, that makes him a great boxer.
Hence the "Muhammad Ali" aka "Cassius Clay" nickname.
Gotta let him have something if John Rigby is Chuck Norris.
Hey, if both were in their prime, who wins a Celebrity Death Match, Muhammad Ali or Chuck Norris?

“That dog just don’t hunt.”

If Ali wanted to win, he’d have to sic a cobra on Chuck like Jake the Snake did to Randy Savage. But, as we all know, a king cobra once bit Chuck Norris and after three days of unendurable agony…

The cobra died.

https://www.quora.com/If-Muham...-fight-who-would-win

Rip ...

Maybe a fine-point Sharpie mark on the bullets to line the patch up for wrapping "height?"

For smokeless loads: The patched diameter is supposed to be about .459" for use in a .458 WIN or .45-100 SWT.

The soft lead bullet bumps up (not as much as with black powder) to press the paper into the rifling grooves,
and the paper patch separates from the lead on leaving the barrel, hopefully.

BP loads: Need a different "slick" of smaller than bore diameter for the greater bump-up of BP.

Rip ...

Rip ...

Excerpt for book review purposes.
Book review: Excellent book.



Rip ...

Above "Patching Board" drawing is from page 88 of Paul Matthews' book from Wolfe.

Pp. 1-2 of the book includes a couple of quotes from John "Pondoro" Taylor and Frederick Courteney Selous.

Taylor about the .450 Black Powder Express:

"I killed elephant, rhino and buffalo with the 365-gr. hardened lead bullet, and lion with the soft bullet of the same weight from both of these rifles. -- The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtedly the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been devised. It invariably mushrooms perfectly and never breaks up."

Taylor's "soft lead bullet" was not pure lead, just not as hardened as his "hardened lead bullet." They were both paper-patched.
Selous used paper-patched bullets in his rifle too:

Selous about his ".450-bore" shooting paper-patched bullets:

"With my .450 bore rifle by Gibbs of Bristol, I have killed ten elephants, using of course the long, solid, hardened bullet of 540 grains and a powder charge of only 75 grains. -- As I was very weak (fever) I was afraid the weight of my ten bore rifle would be too much for me, so I decided to see what I could do with my little .450 bore Metford. I used cartridges loaded with 75 grains of powder and long, pointed, toughened 540 grain bullets."



Above, Frederick Courtenay Selous with his Westley-Richards made Farquharson rifle. (Picture courtesy theexplorer.com).

Below, Original Gibbs-Farquharson target rifle with heavy Metford barrel chambered for the 461 Gibbs No. 2. (Picture courtesy hallowellco.com).



Rip ...

quote:

"I killed elephant, rhino and buffalo with the 365-gr. hardened lead bullet, and lion with the soft bullet of the same weight from both of these rifles. -- The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtedly the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been devised. It invariably mushrooms perfectly and never breaks up."

The second half of that quote has been largely forgotten. BHN 12-15 and moderate velocity is a great game getter. The first half of that quote has been called a lie by many whilst talking about the good old 45-70 and DG Hard Mono-metals has warped our perspective on what it takes to work and in fact ignores that the bullets Taylor was talking about were just a different alloyed "Mono-Metal." All's well though; we will just keep on the mission and shoot some PP bullets through the magnificent 458WM and be happy!

Fury01,

That is an interesting perspective.

I guess the hardest lead alloys used with paper-patched BP loads would not "bump up" as much as the softer lead alloys.
So for best performance the hard ones would have to be made about bore diameter and patched up to about groove diameter,
much like shooting any lead-alloy bullet with smokeless powder?

Paul Matthews opined that grease-grooved replaced paper-patched lead-alloy bullets simply because it was cheaper and easier for the ammo factories,
with attitude of "let the shooter learn to scrub the lead out of his barrel if he wants to buy ammo."

Matthews also notes that paper-patched bullets do a great job of cleaning any lead from a fouled bore.

Subsequently, the "metal-patched" bullet replaced any "paper-patched" sporting and military factory ammo still hanging on, because they were machine produced.

All paper-patched bullets for military and sporting uses from 1860's to 1890's were wrapped by hand.
Automation killed the vocation of "Paper-Patcher."

Matthews page 7:
"To the best of my knowledge paper patches were always applied by hand; there was never any machine developed to do the job. Girls and women always did the patching because, it was said, their fingers were more nimble and their saliva, used to wet the patch, adhered to the bullet better than a man's. ( ) Phil Sharpe, on page 104 of his book COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING states:
'At the ammunition plants girls rolled these [patches] on, and many girls were capable of patching 12,000 bullets each per working day.' "

That is heroic beyond a wartime "Rosie the Riveter" during WWII!

The women of late 19th Century England killed the enemy with their spit!

No wonder they subjugated the Scots, who merely used their women's urine to set the dye in their wool for making kilts.

Maybe lead-toxicity of English women and their infants (by moms in the ammunition-factory jobs) "lead" to the fall of the British Empire?
Sad pun intended.
Don't smoke while rolling your own, and wash your hands after you finish with the paper work, y'all.
The job ain't done until the paperwork is done.
Grandma used to keep a Sears & Roebuck catalog in the outhouse for paperwork.

Rip ...

The Mighty Nimrod
A Life of Frederick Courteney Selous, African Hunter and Adventurer 1851-1917
by Stephen Taylor, Collins, 1989, H/b, 312pp, b/w photos.



http://rhodesia.nl/nimrod.htm

He cured his flinch with a small-bore .450 S. Rigby aka .450 NE: THERAPEUTIC .458 WIN BALLISTICS

Rifle of Teddy Roosevelt's hunter, Frederick Selous, aims high at Bonhams

During his hunting life he tried a variety of calibres, but eventually conceded to his biographer, J.G. Millais, that he would have been better off sticking with two calibres; one such as the .256 Mannlicher for small game, and a .450 Rigby or equivalent for heavy or dangerous game.



https://www.justcollecting.com...aims-high-at-bonhams

Rip ...

Fredrick Courtney Selous, DSO.

He real Chuck Norris. That is my favorite hunter, biography.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:



Above, Frederick Courtenay Selous with his Westley-Richards made Farquharson rifle. (Picture courtesy theexplorer.com).

I don't know why The Explora claims this to be a Westley as it is clearly a full rib barreled Jeffery Farquharson.

RIP, I am so pleased that you are exploring the wonders of the BPE rifles of Alex Henry and George Gibbs!
I've loaded paper patched bullets in my, ummmm, 458 Lott for quite a while and they are quite enjoyable.
Don't worry so much about your patching. Ever look at original Remington or Sharps bullets?
Their patchwork wasn't exactly perfection...

I would say Matthews laid it out pretty well. Though I too passed over paper patching, that doesn’t mean I don’t understand it. It means I took the easy path with groove and lube. It, patching, is a careful process for a careful shooter. Matching size to bore and get it started straight into same, you have a great projectile. Match hardness, and toughness, to speed and target, you can indeed put anything on the ground rather nicely. Your Ruger #1 should let you do all of that nicely and we can see a picture of you next fall with game on the ground. One thing I think we have learned beyond those of yon year is that a flat point beats a pointed or most often even a rounded point hands down. Many have written the science of all that better Than i so I’ll leave it as “settled science” here.
Onward goes the mission Sir.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Fredrick Courtney Selous, DSO.

He real Chuck Norris. That is my favorite hunter, biography.

But of course! Selous, the most famous African Hunter of all time is the Chuck Norris of African hunters.

https://sportingclassicsdaily....elous-walking-stick/

John Rigby though,
for his mastery of rifle building,
for his own world-class shooting at 1000-yard targets with muzzle loaders and breech loaders,
for supervising the transition of the .303 from BP to Cordite,
for creating the Nitro Express class of cartridges with his .450 S. Rigby double rifle out of Henry's .450 BP 3.25" single shot original,
(even if W. Jackman Jeffery might have highjacked the technology by industrial espionage and beat him to the Nitro express class
with the .400 S. Jeffery only months earlier, due to his being a Farquharson that survived proof first time around,
instead of the fifth time for the Rigby double of twin thin tubes that needed new, super steel by Rigby development),
for getting Mauser to start building Magnum Mausers at his behest,
for creating the .416 Rigby in 1911, ahead of the .375 H&H of 1912,
etc., etc.
That surely makes him the master-mixed-martial-artist of riflery, another sort of Chuck Norris.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I don't know why The Explora claims this to be a Westley as it is clearly a full rib barreled Jeffery Farquharson.

Huvius,
With your expertise in these matters, I do not doubt that.
Simon Clode at The Explora admits to not knowing everything.
Here is the article about when he blew it, lucky for someone else, on recognizing a Selous rifle at an auction in Las Vegas:

https://www.theexplora.com/we-...he-selous-425-rifle/



I am still working my way through the first 6 volumes of Wal Winfer, then continuing on with three Donald Dallas opuses/opi/opera, and a few other
wonderful historical volumes by others. I might be able to comment when I get finished with that.


RIP, I am so pleased that you are exploring the wonders of the BPE rifles of Alex Henry and George Gibbs!

Winfer Vol. 1: Alexander Henry
Winfer Vol. 2: George Gibbs

I've loaded paper patched bullets in my, ummmm, 458 Lott for quite a while and they are quite enjoyable.

Good to hear.

Don't worry so much about your patching. Ever look at original Remington or Sharps bullets?
Their patchwork wasn't exactly perfection...

So, a lot of buffalo, humans, and target boards suffered from the spit of American ladies too.
Might have been men doing the paper-patch spit-rolling at the Sharps and Remington ammo factories if they were that sloppy.
Tobacco juice?

Rip

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I would say Matthews laid it out pretty well. Though I too passed over paper patching, that doesn’t mean I don’t understand it. It means I took the easy path with groove and lube. It, patching, is a careful process for a careful shooter ...

Yep, just like the ammo factories, the easier way.
Paper-patching bullets is kind of fussy, but interesting, shooter-experience-wise, to give it a try, finally, after years of procrastination,
for THE MISSION, a good way to illustrate the historical road to perfection of the .458 WIN.
It took almost precisely one century from muzzle-loader perfection to .458 WIN PERFECTION.
I will probably revert quickly to the other monometals.
Heck I am even too lazy to put up with greasing the grooves.
All my grease-groove bullets will eventually become powder-coat painted bullets,
or laziest of all, just use the copper and brass monometals.

Rip ...

I find it quite astonishing that Selous, a man with great in period notoriety and fame, was so little photographed.
Surely, every organized safari or event he was associated with from 1890 on must have been photographed to some extent.
So far, I have seen only four photos of Selous with a rifle and each one with a different rifle.

The three posted above (one with his H&H Woodward and Kori Bustards, one with his muzzle loader, the one with what I believe to be a Jeffery and this one which looks much like a late Gibbs Farquharson are all I know of.

Great!
Now we have all four known photos of Selous with his rifles on one page of THE MISSION.




Gemsbok-horn walking stick:



After that 4-bore he decided that a .256 and a .450 bore were all he really needed.

Rip ...

I get a lot of satisfaction knowing that one of the most famous African big game hunters used a single shot 450

Interestingly, the .256 in the video isn't the rifle leaning against the Oxcart in the photo.
The .256 is unique in that it has a very long block unlike any other Holland Woodward I've ever seen.
Selous ordered three falling block rifles from H&H.
The .256, a 303 which he sent back to be rebarreled to .375 2-1/2" and then another 375 2-1/2" chambered rifle.
The rifle leaning against the cart is believed to be the 303.
Also interesting is that he ordered a number of George Gibbs rifles (unfortunately, Gibbs' records were largely lost in the German bombing of Bristol).
Very likely, the .450 mentioned is a 461 Gibbs Farquharson. For some reason, one of his rifles was stamped "450EX" and he often referred to his Gibbs as a 450 but it was actually a 461 No.2.
Winfer mentions other 461s stamped as 450s but mine isn't and there aren't many sporters around to compare.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I get a lot of satisfaction knowing that one of the most famous African big game hunters used a single shot 450

Amen Brother!

Is that the crease of an old scar below Selous' right cheek?
From the broken stock of his double-charged 4-bore incident?
No wonder he happily switched to .256 and .450.
Flinch cured!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
... Very likely, the .450 mentioned is a 461 Gibbs Farquharson. For some reason, one of his rifles was stamped "450EX" and he often referred to his Gibbs as a 450 but it was actually a 461 No.2.
Winfer mentions other 461s stamped as 450s but mine isn't and there aren't many sporters around to compare.

Indubitably.
The .461 Gibbses used .461-caliber bullets (paper-patched), according to the link from boom stick.
The .458 WIN max spec jacketed bullet is .459-caliber.
Maybe the bore diameter of the .461 Gibbs No. 1 and No. 2 was indeed .450" diameter with deep rifling?
Or it might be 0.452" in bore diameter if rifling depth same as .458 WIN?
Whatever, it is mighty close to a true .450-bore like the .458 WIN, eh?

Rip ...

.450’s - .461’s paper patched bullets and bore diameters.
Interestingly enough my two .450 Express’ (.450 3 1/4”) an 1872 Rigby DR and an 1877 A. Henry DR are both .465” in the grooves.
The Henry of course has 7 groove Henry rifling, the Rigby has Metford style 8 groove with very shallow rifling. Both are naturally from the paper patch era.
Bores on both are about .455”

The 461s have a bore diameter of .461" and a groove of around .470" most all with Metford rifling.
There's a lot of misinformation on that wikipedia page.
The 461 No.1 was introduced probably around 1875, maybe a bit earlier.
The first Gibbs made Farquharsons were chambered in 461 No.1 and recently a W.R. 1869 patent rifle came to light chambered in 461 No.1 with a Metford barrel which I personally think was a ML barrel fit to the action by Gibbs. It is known that Gibbs was developing his 461 cartridge before the Farquharson partnership came to be.
Also, I have no idea where the idea of nitro for black loadings for these cartridges came from. I've never seen any reference to that anywhere and I very much doubt that a smokeless load for an original 461 would work at all well.
These rifles were chambered to allow a maximum bullet diameter of .461" so only a stout load of black powder would bump up a bullet to fill the grooves. A smokeless load would likely just blow the bullet down the bore without engaging the rifling much.

A .470” .349 SD hardened cast bullet at 1300 FPS. That is what Selous was hunting with. I’m sure your 2.6” case can duplicate that RIP.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A .470” .349 SD hardened cast bullet at 1300 FPS. That is what Selous was hunting with. I’m sure your 2.6” case can duplicate that RIP.

Oh yeah! It will beat that.
But was not Selous using a .461"-diameter paper-patched bullet as Huvius says?
If hardened lead, apparently the fast kick of BP burn/explosion is enough to bump them up to fill the grooves with paper and lead,
paper cleaning the bore with each shot.

Thanks to Redstone and Huvius for the actual Olde Rifle bore's and grooves.
Clears that up.

Rip ...