In regard to paper patches, RIP, have you ever used rice-paper cigarette papers, probably well-known in the western states at least these days ? I met an old mate at the range shooting his Martini .577/.450 and he told me cigarette papers were the bee's knees.

sambarman338,

I have heard of that somewhere along the way, for rolling your own bullets.
I will check it out.

I have found sanity with duplexed BP and paper-patched bullets.
Getting a cloud of smoke blown into my face by a headwind makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
I love the smell of black powder in the morning.

I saved these for last today, first five shots of paper-patch-BP in the .45-100 SWT, the.458 WIN twin, 50-yard target:

Last 5 shots today:

That is a starting point for this paper-patch-BP beginner.

I was also happy to find a faster load with the powder-coat-painted, plain-base "Government Red Death" bullet.
This one has potential:

The one smokeless round that would not chamber was later found to have not been properly taper crimped before the roll crimp.
All of the brass was opened up as for the paper-patch seating, and I messed up the one that would not chamber when seating and crimping a PCP-PB,
grooved bullet.
Fixed it when I got home by running it into a seater/crimper die with the bullet seating plug removed.

Rip ...

I might one day reach the velocity with accuracy that Fury01 gets with his smokeless loads, like with AA-2015, etc.
For sure, I will never shoot soft-lead, paper-patched bullets with smokeless powder again.
BP smoking is fun.
Once again, my paper-patched-smokeless loads patterned poorly today.

I will get that 545-gr .461 Gibbs "Money" mould for muzzle loader, from BACo, when available.
I will shoot it as a "hard cast" in the .458 WIN twins,
with powder-coat paint, sized to .461".
I will also try sizing that same bullet down to .451" and paper-patch-duplex-BP it.

And here is that interesting SAECO mould #020 for experiments in the .458 WIN twins:

The Paul Matthews load for the .458 WIN with duplexed BP is a good one for paper-patch bullet,
like the 530-grain slick from BACo.
Matthews used it with a 565-grain .450" bullet (diameter before paper-patching).
Matthews says you can size down your grease-grooved bullets for paper-patching.
I trust what he writes.

That SAECO #020 was found in the "Encyclopedia of Bullet Casting" article, by Kenneth Walters, in GUN DIGEST, 64th Ed., 2010.
He says that SAECO #020 mould produces a bullet of pure lead that weighs 561 grains, with 0.458" diameter and 1.319" length, requiring twist of 1:20".
No mention of why he would cast in pure lead for a gas check design,
unless he was paper-patch-BP-ing?

Indeed, the duplex loads shoot clean in the barrel, and still make warm and fuzzy smoke clouds.
No one would ever know it wasn't pure BP.
They say our BP nowadays is not as good as it was in olden times.
Gotta duplex to make up for it.

Rip ...

Lawrence brand Magnum Shot, best I can glean on approximate analysis, for number 7-1/2 shot:
93 to 94% lead
5 to 6% Antimony
0.5 to 1.25% Arsenic

I am going to assume 94/5/1.
Add a half pound of 50:50 (lead/tin) solder to 10 pounds of Lawrence Magnum Shot,
voila!
My new alloy for experiments:
91.90% lead
4.76% antimony
2.38% tin
0.95% arsenic.
Adds up to 99.99%, due to rounding error.
That is more certain than anything I can surmise about clip-on wheel weights.
Should be good for poison slinging.

Rip ...

Progress! On towards the past monometal giant killers Sir!

Fury01,

Thank you Kind Sir, for supporting THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Progress! On towards the past monometal giant killers Sir!

Them that were giants and giant killers:

F. C. Selous with his hardened 540-grainer paper-patched over BP to 1400 fps, he slew the elephant with that!

American Buffalo Hunters did long-range work on one-ton critters with identical ballistics.

They all would appreciate a .458 WIN as capable of what they needed doing, and more.
A good use for smokeless powder.

I am hot to trot on the 540-grain FN-GC trail accompanied by the spirit of Selous, even if not with BP.
In the .458 WIN LongCOL loaded to just 3.500" COL,
it should be possible to get the 540-grainer over 2200 fps,
with pressures less than the MAP of a SAAMI .458 Lott.

I have the SAECO 540-grain FN-GC and the BACO 545-grain "Money" moulds on the way to me.
The former for Selous-style shooting,
the latter for Quigley-style shooting, in the .458 WIN.

I am pretty sure the loaded ammo will eject from a short-boxed .458 WIN, if the COL is kept down to 3.500" for the FN-GC,
maybe 3.540" for the aerodynamic "Money" bullet.

I'll switch back and forth between the .45-100 SWT and the .458 WIN LongCOL.
The muzzle brake on the latter will be appreciated for load development.

Real progress will be a 540 or 545 grainer at up to 2200 fps in a 25" (1:14" twist) barrel with smokeless and hard alloy.
That would nicely complement nostalgic 1400 fps BP loads from a 22"-long 1:20" twist.

And I need to shoot some of the old .458 WIN handloads in the shorter and slower twist barrel to see how they compare ...

Rip ...

A .458 WIN with 3.6" magazine box length should be ideal for the 540-545-gr cast bullet loads.
Those bullets are about the same length as the traditional jacketed .458/500-grainers.

Poor ol' red-faced .458 Lott, born with a box too short for its brass, poor baby!
Then it had its throat circumcised by SAAMI.
That is about as bad as female genital mutilation!

A .458 Lott is best for short, light, pointy bullets,
and for shooting SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum ammo in a pinch.

Rip ...

While waiting for the moulds, I am going to prevent flinching by re-trying my most accurate 300-gr TTSX load from the earlier .458 WIN shootin' here.
Will load the same amount of H4198 as used in the .458 WIN into the .45-100 SWT.
COL will be 0.1" longer for the taller, skinnier, fraternal twin.
Also a 0.070" thickness of card wads will sit on top of the powder, in order to make the case capacities of the twins identical.

The difference between a 24-7/8" length, 1:14"-twist, .459" groove diameter barrel
versus
the 22", 1:20"-twist, .459" groove diameter barrel
should be entertaining.

Anything for THE MISSION.
It will be 461 pages in honor of Fred "Chuck Norris" Selous.
Yep, I heard that is what F. C. Selous's initials stand for.

My apologies for interrupting interesting nostalgic matters for my present world as of yesterday:

But, for The MISSION:

A fresh can of H4895 and the 500gr Hornady RN:

History; but not ancient, from January 7, 2010, temp: -7C/20F; SAAMI @ 3.34"; 78 grns H4895 = 2247 fps (corrected to MV); 79 grns H4895 = 2266 fps (corrected) - from my 25" CZ550

Current (as of June 11, 2019): 81 grns (from a fresh can) H4895, 500gr Hor. RN @ COL 3.56" = 2309 fps/5919 ft-lbs (corrected avg.) Loads fired from the Ruger #1 in .458 WM, 24".
Ambient conditions: +12C/54F* starting. Elevation: 900 ft., bright sun.

That's the most I've seen from any .458 WM to date using the 500gr Hornady. Have some 500 Speer GS. Plan to give them a try with same load.

81 grns is also the max load in volume, regardless of bullet wt.

Shot some other loads but will refrain from giving data now.

Loads not shot for accuracy, but looked promising, nonetheless.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

The same load behind the 480 DGX (a very good bullet in my view) = 2326 fps/5766 ft-lbs (corrected to MV).

Bob,

Great timing! Then H4895 is the powder I choose for the "modern" 540-grain FN-GC of 92/5/2/1 alloy with powder-coat paint.
I'll save the paper-patching and nostalgia for the Sharps replicas.
Any of those .45-70 Government Sharps can easily become a .45-100 SWT, .458 WIN twin.

I forsee a shoot-off with AA-2230, AA-2460 (both claim good ThermoBallistic Independence) and H4895.
H4895 is a proven performer with excellent TBI and speedier than predicted by my QuickLOAD version, when used with 400-grainers in the .400 Whelen.

The little .45-100 SWT Ruger No.1 will be sweet with 300-grain TTSX at about 2600 fps with H4198.
Flinch prevention training.

Then back to the .458 WIN LongCOL CZ 550 Magnum, for the H4895 shootoff
with 540-grainers at no more than 2200 fps.
I have to keep it down for cast-bullet accuracy, fingers crossed.

I went up to 83.0 grains of AA-2230 with the 500-grain Barnes TSX at 3.785" COL >>> 2342 fps corrected to MV, 5-yard instrumental was 2332 fps, 24-7/8" CZ barrel.
Naked bullets, no hBN.

Sadly I have neglected to try to do that with H4895.
I shall amend that neglect. Thanks for the reminder.

And thanks for the erudite discussion of bear behavior at your blog.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP;

I have some meetings today, so may not get to respond today, but will do so within the next 48 at least -- maybe before.

Some additional thoughts on H4895 and H335.

Have a good day!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

RIP, years ago NEI had a simple cast bullet design that featured a small ring towards the end of the nose that was designed to support a bullet in chambers with long throats. In 458 the bullet designs were designated 458-525-GC-DD and 458-440-GC-DD.

It might be a useful design feature to centralize and support the bullet in the cavernous 458 throat.

Bob,
Thanks for turning the page to 133.
Will look forward to more on H4895 and H335.

Rip ...

JFE,
I had never noted that dual diameter nose with a thin band near the point of the bullet.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Alas, NEI was gone, last time I tried to order one of their moulds.
That might be a good design feature to incorporate in a custom design for the .458 WIN for loading cast bullets to SAAMI COL, especially.

For a walk down memory lane, see scans of page 12 of the old NEI catalog, below,
noting how I milk this for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Here is the one I would love to powder-coat paint and try in the .458 WIN LongCOL:



Or one of these, especially the one in the middle that almost has a ring on its nose:



I did get the SAECO #020 FN-GC "540"-grainer mould.
Arrived in the mail today.
Trusting that it casts in pure lead at .458" and 561 grains,
I am hoping the hard alloy with gas check and powder-coat paint will be around .460"-461" and 545-550 grains.
If that is not the cat's meow, then I am waiting on the Buffalo Arms .461 Gibbs muzzleloader mould to try in the .458 WIN.
If that does not work as fine as frog hair, then I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Rip ...

Night before last I melted 25 lbs of No. 7-1/2 shot (Lawrence Brand Magnum Shot) along with 1.25 lbs of 50:50 solder.
That's 20 parts shot to 1 part solder by weight,
or 5 pounds of shot plus 4 ounces of solder.
Fluxed with Marvelux (boric acid).
Last night I turned about 8.5 pounds of those ingots into 111 bullets.
I flubbed one double pour of the 2-cavity mould.
The rest look shootable.

I de-greased the Saeco mould with carburetor cleaner and flamed it with a Bic butane lighter for soot prep of the mould cavities.
Then the mould sat on the top of the pot until 11 lbs of ingots were all melted,
fluxed with one little birthday-cake candle,
and all ladle dipping and pouring took place at 650 to 700 degrees F.
I let the mould cool for 30 to 60 seconds before cracking it open and dropping the bullets into water.



Yes, having two moulds going at once would be wise time management, for making same-alloy bullets of two different types.

The sprue holes of the double-cavity Saeco mould #020 were not centered on the base of the bullets.
However the mould fills excellently,
maybe that off-centeredness helps with the filling?
Hopefully it does not cause any eccentricity issue or affect accuracy.

A random 10-bullet sample had average weight of 532.3 grains, with standard deviation of 0.4 grains.
I'll weigh them all.



Lyman and Hornady gas checks both weighed 8.2 grains.
Add 1 more grain for the powder-coat paint,
and bullet weight will be about 541.5 grains in this alloy, "92/5/2/1."
It should be heat-treat-hardenable, like wheel weights.
Diameter as cast is 0.461".
Length without the gas check is 1.320",
with the gas check installed, bullet length is ~1.345".

Rip ...

I would say you are at the starting gate of success with smokeless Rip.

Fury01,
Buy a donkey!
I will start off with H4895 loads for the .458 WIN LongCOL.
54 of the 111 bullets cast were within 1.0 grain of 532.3 grains, as-cast weight.
37 of 111 were heavier,
20 of 111 were lighter.
I might be getting the hang of this.

That BACo .461 Gibbs mould might be even better.


Rip ...

Dropping into tap water after the second coat of powder showed no ill effects on the Harbor Freight Red,
so I was emboldened to try higher heat for longer, and a cooler quenching.
H4895 loads for these.

Rip ...

Put 5 grains of Dacron on top of that 4895 and you’ll have a 548 in a 458. The symmetry of it all.
Double heat treated; that bullet would be tough enough to break both shoulders and keep on going. Tough is way better hard when you talk cast on big game.

Fury01,
Thanks for the numerologic suggestion,
but I will not be needing to finesse it that much.
The PCP double paint job adds about 2.7 grains of red, polymer coating to each bullet.
The GC adds about 8.2 grains of gilding metal to each bullet.
High tech that either Selous or Quigley would surely have been envious of,
not to mention the smokeless powder.
Looks like after PCP and GC my three groups of sorted bullets will be approximately as so, all within +/- 1 grain within each bracket:
lightweights 541 grains
middleweights 543 grains
heavyweights 545 grains

Now that I know the water drop does not hurt the powder-coat, I have simplified to only two heats.
The bullets were dropped from mould into water for stage zero hardness.

Heat #1: The usual powder coat painting, 15 minutes at 400*F then air-cooled.
This softens water-dropped Linotype bullets by 2 or 3 BHN, most likely does the same to "92/5/2/1 Alloy."
The painted bullets are then run through the .460" Lee sizer.

Heat #2: For the second powder-coat painting, 30 minutes at 475*F in convection oven/"fast bake" setting,
then dropped into a 5-gallon bucket of water iced to about 50*F.
Hardening sets in then, I hope.

Then the easy second push through the .460" sizer is mostly to install the gas check, working the bands so little must surely not soften them.
It is mainly just to polish the powder-coat paint on the bands.
They end up 0.461" diameter.
Either that is the actual size of the nominal .460" Lee sizer die, or there is 0.001" of spring-back.

I will test the water-dropped, as-cast bullet, and the heat-treated one, with whatever hardness testers on hand, for what they are worth,
and watch them over time to see if the hardness fades.

Rip ...

I think that a 4gr differential between the lights and the heavies will be unnoticed in the shooting.
Particularly when talking a less than 1% variance of a 540gr+ projectile.
They will certainly be thumpers, that’s for sure!

Huvius,

Thanks for that suggestion of a useful standard.
I can cull out the 10 lightest of the lightweights and call the remaining batch 544-grainers, +/- 2.0 grains.
Doing that gets me 101 bullets out of 111 cast.
Pretty good for my first-time try of this "92/5/2/1" alloy and a Saeco 2-cavity mould.

Hardness testing for water-dropped naked bullets versus the powder-coat-painted, gas-checked, heat treated bullets:

LBT: 18 BHN versus 20 BHN
Lee: 19 BHN versus 21 BHN

IMHO, it is a success.
Some hardening achieved after the softening that comes with the usual method of powder-coat-painting.
Almost as hard as water-dropped Linotype, but heavier, and surely tougher, not so brittle.
And the alloy casts well, even for a klutz like me.
Will see how fast they can go with useful accuracy in the .458 WIN LongCOL.

Rip ...

Here are some of the lightweight culls, sacrificed for dummies and hardness testing:



Once again the .458 Lott eats the dust of the .458 WIN LongCOL.
I admit that the Lott brass is only 2.780" long,
once-fired factory brass that comes from the factory short,
so they can fit the .458 Lott loads within the SAAMI COL.
Even if the Lott brass is allowed to grow to 2.800", the longest COL with this cast bullet crimped on the only possible groove for the Lott
is 3.520",
to stay within SAAMI COL of 3.600".
The .458 WIN versatility using 2.500" brass, wins again,
even when limited to 3.600" COL.

Rip ...

I am standing in line for
a honey-do so I might as well
kill some time for THE MISSION.
Loads coming up will be the
.45-100 SWT ballistic twin with
300-grain TTSX with H4198, 3.500" COL
and
544-grain FN-GC-PCP-HT with H4895, COL.

Starting loads in Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger
and working up from there with
Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ with brake.

Rip ...

Rip;
Sounds like your hiking right along !
Nice to have an alloy that casts well. And I'm thankful you are putting this info online. This coming winter I want to start casting for the Spruce King and my 416 Rem mag.
I was thinking of trying 40% linotype (unless I can find some foundrytype) . 55% clip on ww and 5%tin

CTF,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

Tin will make pretty bullets, but 2% to 3% is enough for that.
Antimony at 5% to 6% is enough for hardness.
Arsenic 0.5% to 1% (some say as low as 0.25%) is reportedly the catalyst to maximize hardening of the lead-antimony alloy.
Too much tin will impair the heat-treat hardening, they say also.

Thus, I have come to desire "92/5/2/1" alloy.
I recommend a simple recipe now: 10 pounds of Lawrence Magnum Shot (shot size 7-1/2) plus a half pound of 50:50 solder (lead & tin).
Should be more consistent and closer to "92/5/2/1" from batch to batch
than depending on wheel weights of unknown analysis.
Adding 2% tin to wheel weights might do the same thing,
and that was the recipe Ross Seyfried used a lot, IIRC, mostly for handcannon bullets.
But with wheel weights, it is more of an "unknown."

Some say wheel-weights can be heat-treat hardened to greater than 30 BHN.
I can only say that my "92/5/2/1" alloy will harden a wee bit with heating to 475*F for a half hour followed by a quench in cool water.

Rip ...

RIP;

Again my apologies for adding the mundane to a fine thread on cast bullets for .458-caliber.

But several years ago, I met a man at our range who was making his own cast bullets in .430 and .458 for his .44 Rem and .45-70. He invited me to give the .458s a try. I did, and was so impressed I purchased a bunch from him at 465gr. Later, I bought a couple more boxes in 465 and 470gr. I asked him to make them a bit harder for my use at about 1900 fps from my Marlin Classic (22") and NEF single-shot. I flattened a nice bear with one shot from the NEF. MV was 1900 +/-. They had grease grooves and a GC. Very accurate from either the Marlin or NEF at MOA. A little faster from the Marlin at 1939 fps. H335 was used in each. He later retired from Hydro Ontario (Nuclear Div.) and took 3000 lbs of lead ingots with him that were rejects at the plant. They gave them to him when he moved back to Saskatchewan and started a business: MT Chambers Supply. I must contact him to find out his formula.

Mundane stuff: 2 days ago at the range firing some 500gr Speer GS, 480 DGX, 450 TSX, etc. Powders were H4895, AA2230, H335, RL-15, H4198 and AA1680.

82 grns H4895 = 2312 fps (500 Speer) Absolute max in volume, lightly compressed. Remington brass (nearly new)
77 grns AA2230 = 2311 fps (500 Speer) a bit too hot, but safe. Remington brass.
84 grns H335 = 2403 fps (450 AF) Same as previous test using Win brass. 85 grns actually was slower by about 50 fps.
79 grns AA2230 = 2402 fps (450 TSX) first time to pass 2400 with the 450 TSX. Max. Rem brass
82 grns H4895 = 2353 fps/5900 ft-lbs (480 DGX) Rem brass. Best yet with that bullet. Phil Shoemaker recently killed a monster Cape buff with a 500 DGX using "Ole Ugly". One and done.

The next two are VERY interesting:

400gr Barnes X-Bullet (Original) over 78 grns H4198 = 2590 fps/5957 ft-lbs at MV, over 3800 ft-lbs at 300 yds and nearly 2800 ft-lbs at 500 yards. It shoots as flat as a .308 Win firing a 180gr. Its BC is .457, or thereabouts according to Barnes. I still have a few. I wish they still made it. COL was 3.61". Phil Shoemaker loved that bullet and lamented its loss.

300gr TSX over 83 grns AA1680 = 2856 fps. Seated to bottom cannelure. Not max, and I think 2900 fps might be safe. But it looses speed quickly.

The last two (400 and 300) were the result of very careful calculations.

Rem brass and WLRM primers used throughout. MVs corrected to muzzle. None of the bullets were crimped, including the TSX's.

For THE MISSION.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob, what are your oals? Thx.

Baxter B.

500 Speer at from 3.60" to 3.625"
450 AF @ 3.53"
480 DGX @ 3.585
450 TSX @ 3.68"
405 Rem @ 3.256" (Reduced load at 2085 fps)
400 X @ 3.61"
300 TSX @ 3.327"

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

As edited above: none were crimped, not even the TSX's. But I usually employ a Lee Crimp Die. Still, being a single shot, crimping is sort of an un-needed luxury. Never has there been a problem with any of my single-shots.