Rip ...

thats where I thought you were headed w box length once I slowed and tried to get a measurement off one of the other zastavas here in the rifle room


we are going to build the swift bottom to standard short box spec.s

just measured the 798 remington zastava its a 3.4

so I do not know which 98 box we will order up from swift but will report it asp

More, much more, to come, but first a bit from memory lane.
This surely illustrates the way seating the bullet of a .458 WIN out by just a tenth of an inch can make a big difference, just like it does in the .400 Whelen-B:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


I keep forgetting stuff.



From a previous thread about "400 Whelen-B Proof Loads, don't try this at home":

RL-17 72.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2289 fps

VARGET 67.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2313 fps

H4895 67.0 grains + 400-grain Woodleigh RNSN >>> MV = 2391 fps

Witnessed by Rusty McGee who said: "Physics does not allow it."

Fool Physics once, shame on me, fool Physics twice, shame on me again ...

The Woodleigh loads required emergency re-seating after arrival at the range,
because the original 3.550" C.O.L. of the compressed, non-crimped loads had grown too long for the bolt to close.
They were re-seated to 3.450",
then fired quickly before they re-grew.
They need a second cannelure on the bullets and a crimp before the next outing.

My RL-17 lot did slower, lower pressure than QuickLOAD predicted.
My Varget lot did just a little faster than QuickLOAD predicted.
My H4895 lot did a lot faster and obviously higher pressure than QuickLOAD predicted.



That was the 4th shot of a planned 10-shot string when the primer fell out:



Decreasing the seating depth from 3.550" to 3.450" really jacks up the pressure in my 400 Whelen-B.

3.550" COL prediction by QuickLOAD: 2276 fps and 60,336 PSI



3.450" COL prediction by QuickLOAD: 2313 fps and 66,665 PSI, ACTUAL: 2391 fps and probably over 75,000 PSI, 25" barrel.



Take any QuickLOAD results, mine or yours, with a grain of saltpeter.

Rip ...

I guarantee this thread will not end like GAME OF THRONES did last night:

Damn... that was funny.
I was hoping Ygritte would be somehow be brought back to life. Wrong redhead! that one has too many heads! No bumping broomsticks

For The MISSION:

Yesterday's results: (corrected to MV)
Conditions: Chrony @ 15'; Temp = 7C*/45*F; Sunny; Wind: 35KM NW (blowing toward target)
Rifle: Ruger Tropical in .458 Win Mag; 24"
Cases: Win (used)
Primers:WLRM

500gr Hornady RN: 76 grs A2230 = 2297 fps/5857 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.48" - seated deeper than previously. A2230 is very fine ball powder leaving too much "air space at 3.56") Max load.
500gr Hornady RN: 76 grs A2230 = 2284 fps/5791 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.48")

480 DGX: 83 grs H335 = 2264 fps/5462 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.55"; no case expansion and little increase in MV over 82 grs.)

450 TSX: 84 H335 = 2349 fps/5513 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.68"; case expansion the same as for 82 grs - well below max. MV increase only 59 fps for 2 grs extra H335)
450 TSX: 77grs A2230 (1 gr more than last test) = 2357 fps/5550 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.68"; max load. Increase 31 fps.)

405 Rem: 75 grs RL-15 = 2054 fps/3794 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.25" - this was to match .45-70 in a Marlin 22" - which it did.)

350 Hor RN: 75 grs RL-15 = 2021 fps/3174 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.25" - this also was for an equivalent .45-70 Marlin 22". It was.)

480 DGX : 67 grs RL-15 = 1810 fps/3491 ft-lbs (COL @ 3.52" - this was to match a reduced load in my former Ruger .45-70 LT. It came very close.)

Eye surgery was done two weeks ago with great vision improvement. I used the Lead Sled for all of these shots. Felt recoil almost nil.

On Friday of this week, my friend, Ken, and I will take his metal detector to try and locate bullets that passed through the media in the fall of 2017. They would include a 480 DGX, a 350 TSX, a 330 Banded and a 400 Buster. Will let you know results. They were fired from my Ruger #1 45-70 LR.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Great to hear surgery went well.
Great load data.
Those RL-15 loads to duplicate .45-70 hot loads are interesting.
My experience with RL-7 at those velocities with 405-grainers: It would disassemble my Marlin 1895 .45-70 in short order.

Great article on bear behavior for your latest blog entry.

www.bigbores.ca

I have seen a +600-pound black bear taken in Prince William Sound area of Alaska.
Hell! I was there! Crawling on my belly behind the guide and his son who shot it at a bait in the wilderness, close to Columbia Glacier.

I have heard that black bears get over 800 pounds in North Carolina, big as a griz.

The black bear kills more people than any other bear, eh?

AA-2230 is compact, energetic, and has good ThermoBallisticIndependence (TBI) according to its makers (since reformulation in 2016),
and according to stradling's tests.

That makes it perfect for the heavy monometal copper and brass bullets, allowing the .458 WIN LongCOL to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott, at same pressures.


My 83-year-old mother is getting well enough to cut me some slack on the old-lady-sitting chores.
I doubt she will ever want to go shooting with me though.
Even with a Lead Sled.

Rip ...

The title of this book is perfect for the beginnings of the .458 Winchester Magnum:



Especially the subtitle:

Back of jacket:





Another huge book, too big to get one page on the scanner:

Inside jacket flaps.
Front:



Back:



423 pages.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

Great to hear surgery went well.
Great load data.
Those RL-7 loads to duplicate .45-70 hot loads would disassemble a Marlin 1895 .45-70 in short order.

Great article on bear behavior for your latest blog entry.

www.bigbores.ca

I have seen a +600-pound black bear taken in Prince William Sound area of Alaska.
Hell! I was there! Crawling on my belly behind the guide and his son who shot it at a bait in the wilderness, close to Columbia Glacier.

I have heard that black bears get over 800 pounds in North Carolina, big as a griz.

The black bear kills more people than any other bear, eh?

AA-2230 is compact, energetic, and has good ThermoBallisticIndependence (TBI) according to its makers (since reformulation in 2016),
and according to stradling's tests.

That makes it perfect for the heavy monometal copper and brass bullets, allowing the .458 WIN LongCOL to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott, at same pressures.


My 83-year-old mother is getting well enough to cut me some slack on the old-lady-sitting chores.
I doubt she will ever want to go shooting with me though.
Even with a Lead Sled.

Rip ...

RIP;

The reduced loads above were done with RL-15 knowing a 90% load would be safe and slow. They worked out fine coming very close to my former loads in Marlins using, of course, a faster powder like AA2015. The Marlin loads were safe giving about 2100 fps from the 405 Rem at 2.61" COL in a 22". The 480 DGX was only previously fired in my former CZ550 and #1 Ruger .45-70 LT. A reduced load for the latter was fired in a series of tests in November 2017 that included the 480 DGX at 1780. That was nearly a three shot single hole at 100 prior to its test when it went completely through the media. Will be looking for it tomorrow using the metal detector, as mentioned. I was impressed. Recoil of the load that was fired a couple of days ago included a greater charge of powder, since the .458 has greater capacity than the .45-70 case, but was still very mild.

Thanks for your comments about bears. The largest that I'm aware of that every came regularly to one of my baits was at least 600 lbs. But it got shot by hound hunters close by. Field dressed it weighed 568 lbs. It was hitting my bait at night, but the hounds got it moving in daylight.

Yes, black bears will live near habitation, especially with agricultural crops like corn and oats. That's why there are so many giant black bruins in North Carolina.

Thanks for best wishes. As well to you sir.

Yesterday I bought a fresh 1-lb can of H4895. Want to give that a try. Will report if that's of any interest.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca (New blog next week on black bears, God permitting.)

Bob,

A brain fart on my part about mixing up RL-7 and RL-15, which I fixed above, to this:

Those RL-15 loads to duplicate .45-70 hot loads are interesting.
My experience with RL-7 at those velocities with 405-grainers: It would disassemble my Marlin 1895 .45-70 in short order.

Hope you find those 480-grain DGX.

Rip ...

A favorite quote:



To be continued.

Rip ...

The genius of Whitworth, Henry, Rigby, and Watts plus inspirations from H&H, WR, and BSA blazed the trail
across a century and across a pond to perfection of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

BSA should have gone bigger in bore than .40 and way heavier than the .408/250-grain varmint bullet they seem to have chosen.

Here is a 1974 GUN DIGEST article that should be of interest to any riflecrank:

Interesting features on the BSA-sporterized Pattern 14 Enfield rifle:

Dual pop-up peeps for 200 yards and 400 yards with windage adjustment (the open leaves both fold down on the barrel).
That is a great use for the recess on the rear bridge after the ears are milled off.

Forend tip sling swivel eye instead of barrel band stud.

Short, slender forearm, yet with a palm-swell.

Action that would be perfect for a .458 WIN LongCOL.

No doubt, making the .40 BSA case length 2.8"
(while the more successful .26 BSA and .33 BSA were 2.4")
was bad ju-ju, just like for the .458 Lott.
The .40-cal/250-grain bullet of varmint-grenade construction at 2850 fps did not help the .40 BSA either.
Winchester took note.

Thank's to stradling for pointing out this inspirational influence on Winchester Arms Company,
for THE MISSION.
Despite any pooh-poohing by Alf, it cannot be denied.

Rip ...

ah, yes! The precursor to the 400 Karamojo!

it is a bsa 23

BSA Model 1923 (aka BSA M23 rifle)
chambered in .33 BSA and .26 BSA,
but in 1921, was the .40 BSA rifle flop a Model 1921?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
ah, yes! The precursor to the 400 Karamojo!

boom stick was smart enough to use a 400-gr bullet.

Rip ...

I quite like the shape of that BSA's stock, except for the lesion beneath the tangent sights.

Such were the problems with deep etching photos in the old days. I once deep-etched a picture of a rifle reviewed in the magazine I worked on, cutting red film to fit over the outline. Trouble was a sliver of red was lost just beneath the barrel at the fore end, making it look as though a chip of wood was missing after the long exposure.

The pictures of the BSA cartridges have a family resemblance to the 264 WM, 338 WM and 416 Rem.
the primary difference that I see is that modern rifles and powders produce increased velocities in those newer cartridges.

A person could do a lot worse than a 264WM, 338WM and (non-belt substitute) 416Ruger.


Thanks for the history.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I quite like the shape of that BSA's stock, except for the lesion beneath the tangent sights.

Such were the problems with deep etching photos in the old days. I once deep-etched a picture of a rifle reviewed in the magazine I worked on, cutting red film to fit over the outline. Trouble was a sliver of red was lost just beneath the barrel at the fore end, making it look as though a chip of wood was missing after the long exposure.

Ah Ha! The forearm "palm swell" is a forearm "palm pimple" caused by a photographic pimple?
There are some other lesser blemishes in the photos.
Lance that boil, eh?

The "Boil Sucker" was the earliest of Medical Practitioners.
The second oldest profession.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The pictures of the BSA cartridges have a family resemblance to the 264 WM, 338 WM and 416 Rem.
the primary difference that I see is that modern rifles and powders produce increased velocities in those newer cartridges.

A person could do a lot worse than a 264WM, 338WM and (non-belt substitute) 416Ruger.


Thanks for the history.

416Tanzan,

You're contributions to THE MISSION are most welcome.
F. C. Selous could have done it all with a .264 Ripmoor and a .458 WinRuger,
if he had to.
He probably would have been happier with a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .458 WIN LongCOL.

We might come up with numerous .256-plus-.450-bore "Selous' Choice" combos, eh?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The pictures of the BSA cartridges have a family resemblance to the 264 WM, 338 WM and 416 Rem.
the primary difference that I see is that modern rifles and powders produce increased velocities in those newer cartridges.

A person could do a lot worse than a 264WM, 338WM and (non-belt substitute) 416Ruger.


Thanks for the history.

416Tanzan,

You're contributions to THE MISSION are most welcome.
F. C. Selous could have done it all with a .264 Ripmoor and a .458 WinRuger,
if he had to.
He probably would have been happier with a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .458 WIN LongCOL.

We might come up with numerous .256-plus-.450-bore "Selous' Choice" combos, eh?

Rip ...

My current version of this is my 6.5x55 with my .458 Win. But if hunting the world, I would also add my 9.3x62. This trio also has a certain symmetry: .26 cal, .36 cal, and (almost) .46 cal.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
My current version of this is my 6.5x55 with my .458 Win. But if hunting the world, I would also add my 9.3x62. This trio also has a certain symmetry: .26 cal, .36 cal, and (almost) .46 cal.

I like that 26, 36, 46 numerology.
Definitely a plan for the three-rifle battery.

Rip ...

Selous was a simple guy, like Chuck Norris is simple, simply bad-ass.
He could make do with only two:

Rip ...

Uh-oh, a Winchester M70 Classic .416 RemMag donor rifle is perfect for 3+1 capacity with the .458 WinRuger.
Bolt closes easily over 3 down, even has room to CRF a 4th round off the top of the box,
or just drop the 4th round directly into the chamber, M70-style, and close the bolt.
The .458 WinRuger really needs to be done in a 3.6" magazine length.
Its 2.580" brass length crowds a 3.4" box length almost as badly as a .458 Lott with 2.800" brass length crowds a 3.6" box length.

However, a Duane Wiebe M98 Mauser drop box with a barely +3.5" inside-box length (it is about 3.501")
could be used on the Mk X Whitworth .458 WinRuger, requiring her action to be opened up only about 0.1".
The 2.580" brass length in a 3.5" box length is better than a 2.8" brass length in a 3.6" box length.
Dang that .458 Lott! It sure crowds a 3.6" magazine box with bullet nose.



That is not Buzz Charlton above. It is Borat.
The SAAMI .458 Lott is like a beach bum, Borat style.
Like trying to cram his cup plus two peanuts and a Vienna sausage beanie-weanie into a mankini.
The .458 Lott Mankini.

Rip ...

RIP, those two-cartridge photos you just posted are just begging to be made into an over/under rifle combo. Or perhaps a drilling with two .458s and one 6.5?

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
RIP, those two-cartridge photos you just posted are just begging to be made into an over/under rifle combo. Or perhaps a drilling with two .458s and one 6.5?

Hey! John T. Amber had Dr. Kortz of Elko Arms in Brussels, Belgium make a Bergstutzen, "Mountain Rifle," O/U double rifle.
.22 Hornet top barrel and .375 H&H lower barrel.
And it weighed only 7 pounds!

Kortz was a wildcatter too, had a .459 Elsa K Super Magnum with 3.300" brass, rimmed and straight taper:
Really just a .450 NE with a thicker rim and 0.050" longer brass,
pending 3.5" brass ...
Also a .375 EKSM on same case necked down for .375 bullet.

Selous did not care for double rifles,
probably because he never tried an O/U .256-bore/.450-bore.

An offering to Selous, Cartridge Combo Number Three:
A .264/9.3x74R over a .45-100 Sharps-WT.
That would get the spirit of 26/36/46 into one O/U rifle.

If Selous could get accustomed to that, then maybe a drilling for Selous Combo Number Four, 26/36/46-bores, three barrels, all rifled, for a
"One-Gun Selous Combo":

6.5x53R (.256 Mannlicher)
9.3x72R
.45-100 Sharps WT

I feel a new dummy cartridge coming on, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

The "Boil Sucker" was the earliest of Medical Practitioners.
The second oldest profession.

Rip ...

Somehow that reminds of a joke, and worries me that I can't remember how it goes.

sambarman338,

See, on this thread we can sling about anything at the .458 WIN wall and make it stick.

The .458 WinRuger has a better shoulder than the 10.75x68mm Mauser.

I really don't see why the .458/.416 Ruger could not become a SAAMI homologated cartridge.
Here is the chance for a SAAMI .458 WinRuger with LongCOL spec from the get-go.
Make it anything from 3.580" to 3.600" COL.
Wildcatters could still load it to 3.780" COL just for kicks.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

An offering to Selous, Cartridge Combo Number Three:
A .264/9.3x74R over a .45-100 Sharps-WT.
That would get the spirit of 26/36/46 into one O/U rifle.

If Selous could get accustomed to that, then maybe a drilling for Selous Combo Number Four, 26/36/46-bores, three barrels, all rifled, for a
"One-Gun Selous Combo":

6.5x53R (.256 Mannlicher)
9.3x72R
.45-100 Sharps WT

I feel a new dummy cartridge coming on, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Love it!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

See, on this thread we can sling about anything at the .458 WIN wall and make it stick.

The .458 WinRuger has a better shoulder than the 10.75x68mm Mauser.

I really don't see why the .458/.416 Ruger could not become a SAAMI homologated cartridge.
Here is the chance for a SAAMI .458 WinRuger with LongCOL spec from the get-go.
Make it anything from 3.580" to 3.600" COL.
Wildcatters could still load it to 3.780" COL just for kicks.

Rip ...

RIP, are you warming to the .458 WinRuger? If you load it longCOL and use the Win throat, could it be considered a modern homage to the Win Mag, or would it be counted disloyal to your first love?

You're the only person I know who has actually chambered a rifle for the .458 Ruger. I only mocked it up years ago using QuickDesign and QL and found out that it should potentially yield 100 fps more than the Win Mag at the same COL. It sure is a good-looking cartridge, but is it worth it to clean up a chamber and get the assorted dies, etc for 100 fps?

I do think you're right about the Ruger case having enough shoulder. All you've done is move the 0.02" Win Mag belt up the case to form a shoulder, and if twenty thousandths headspaces at the back side, 27 thousandths should work at the front with a sharp enough shoulder.

It ain't a Bergstutzen, but my Bockbüchsflinte, 16 ga. over 7X75R SE vom Hofe (7mm/9.3X74R) has an full length insert barrel in 6X52R Bretschneider (6mm/5.6X52R) and an extra Bockdoppelbüchse set of barrels in 9.3X74R. That combined with my Bockdoppelbüchse in .450 C&W (.450/.375 H&H Flanged Magnum) makes a pretty good two gun battery. Or you could combine it with my .500 NE Bockdoppelbüchse with extra Bockdoppelflinte set of barrels in 12 gauge.

This is the BSA .458 win mag we started with

it is now a up and running gun

curly maple stock

nine pounds

peep sight and irons-- augmented with an under barrel laser sight in deep green all 3 co witnessed


it is a-- none down and one up the tube--the rest in your fist bolt action rifle ''arrangement''

Joe P Smithsonian opened up the throat to standard reamer dimensions so it will feed a barnes pointy [hung out a bit long], a hornady any thing, a cutting edge everything and even a woodleigh 550 hard - or say the big heavy lead cast stuff we viewed on youtube a few pages back


shot it in yesterday with standard 500 grain solids and softs 71.5 grains of 2230 accurate powder magnum rifle primer 23 1/2 inch barrel
- thing kicks like a mule-

it is to be the pickup gun for dangerous jackrabbits - the kind we have out here in utah will get the best off you if ya were to ever let one get on top

picture forthcoming

you might think of it as ''the Johnny Cash's Cadillac'' of 458's -- we quite like it