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RIP; That makes sense. I did not consider too much tin affecting heat treating. As I have a bunch of wheel weights I will be using them up. But, if I stumble upon some better components to make alloy from I'll snag them. Bob, At first I couldn't figure out how you were getting that much powder in the case. Once you listed the lengths it all made good sense. Thank you for posting your results. That is impressive results with the 300 gr TSX. !! That will blow a 4" diameter hole completely thru a bear. It's actually quite amazing. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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If you wheel weights are old then they are likely a great alloy for casting and heat treating. You can get from 12 to maybe 18 bhn. Perfect for hunting. Cast them to fit and find a load. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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I'll be using Hornady brass and F215 and/or WLRM primers, and all of my loads are crimped, even the jacketed ones, even if I have to make a new cannelure with the CH4D Canntool.  Rip ... | |||
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CTF and Fury01, Yep, the old clip-on wheel weights are "golden." I got started late at casting and got some of the new trash in my melting pot out of ignorance. Produced all kinds of rainbow colors floating on the top of the pot. I have bought supposedly good WW ingots at a gunshow, got 30 pounds of that in one score, saving it for something special. Rip ... | |||
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BaxterB, Thanks for getting Bob to sort out the COLs. Rip ... | |||
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Reduced loads:  | |||
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A work-up to heavier loads:  Rip ... | |||
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Just to clarify a couple of things: The 500gr Speer GS is longer than the 500gr Hornady by 0.055" which explains why their COL was longer than the 500gr Hornady loads by that amount since both were seated to the same depth. Not crimping the loads: I usually use the Lee Crimp die, even for crimping into the TSX bullets. It doesn't make much of an impression on the tough bullets, but when some of those kind have been "pulled" for one reason or another, I do see an "imprint" at where the Lee crimp die made an impression. On softer bullets (pure copper and pure lead), there is a definite, but slight, groove made. I wanted to see if not crimping any of the bullets affected start pressure. It didn't appear to. I use RCBS dies that leave the necks of .458 brass very tight when seating any bullet. And I never use the die for belling the mouth of the cases. These are excellent dies, and the seating die suits pointed bullets, RN or flat tip... they all go in straight. The case has a good grip on the shank of the bullets. For a hunting load in a magazine rifle, I'd want either a cannelure to crimp into, or a compressed load (or both). I believe it is in Bob Hagel's book, "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter", where he claimed, after much testing, that he never found a cannelure to be necessary IF neck tension was adequate and the load was slightly compressed. And, as we know, he was shooting some heavy loads most of the time. My experience generally confirms that. However, for one reason or another (such as a ball powder in the .458), the load may NOT be 100% load density, or more, so one must have a good crimp in a magazine rifle, for the obvious reasons. But, I've satisfied myself, at least to this point, that crimping of the loads I've developed for the Ruger #1 in .458 doesn't necessarily add a higher starting pressure, or a more consistent one. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Bob, Gotcha. Makes total good sense. I use RCBS .458 WIN dies too, and Lee, and Redding, and Hornady. All have their uses, but to simplify, yes, RCBS full set and a Lee Factory Crimp die. Add appropriate seater plug for any pointy bullets, and you are the Master of the .458 WIN. Or it has mastered you. I do not have to bell or flare the case mouths either, as long as I stay away from the paper-patched bullets. I am setting aside cases for BP and paper-patch only, and will keep them properly annealed. Not gonna overwork the necks of my smokeless brass. | |||
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As to the wheel weight thing. I've only had a few casting sessions myself so far. What I've done is . Get a pail of wheel weights from a tire shop. Sit down with several empty coffee cans and a pair of dykes, wire cutters. Every weight that goes into the keeper cans gets a good squeeze with the dykes. If they cut into the weight , I toss them in with the keepers. If all they are hard to get any kind of depth of cut in. I toss them in the rejects can. Those are the zinc ones. Then the synthetic and steel ones get to be easy to spot. They also end up in the landfill. I was really paranoid of wasting a good pot of lead with a zinc weight so I took the time . I've gotten so I can spot most of the zinc , steel and synthetic weights without the dyke test. But I still sort them 1 at a time. I get a kick out of making boolits for cheap. I guess its from shooting lots of 416, 458 and 510 dia premium bullets at a buck or 2 a piece. I need to get with the program and order some powder coating supplies. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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For comparative purposes and interest's sake, on behalf of those whose .458 magazine may only allow SAAMI COL @ 3.34", here are some results from Sept./'09 through my CZ550 with a 25" barrel. This was done with the purpose of demonstrating that the .458 Win is no slouch, when handloaded, at 3.34" COL. All are from the 500gr Hornady RN Interloc; WW brass and WLRM primers; corrected to MV: 78 grns H335 = 2204 fps (I expected 2200). Note at the time: "mild" 80 grns AA2460 = 2206 fps (2200 expected). Note : "mild" 78 grns IMR4320 = 2161 fps (2140 expected). Note: "normal" 78 grns Varget = 2154 fps (2175 expected). Note: "normal" 83 grns W748 = 2076 fps (2200 expected). Note: "mild"- I was very surprised with that result. But it helped me understand why factory Win ammo gave such poor results from a 22"; often less than 2000 fps. I was unable to obtain a can of AA2230 until 2010. The Hodgdon manual (No.27) gives this result from 75.5 grns H335 from a 24" barrel and the 500gr Hor RN: = 2163 fps @ 50,300 cup. 50,300 cup is (according to Accurate Arms Powder manual) = 59,354 psi. If we grant the .458 Winchester the same psi as the Lott at 62,500 psi, then "mild" for my load in September, 2009, was a just comment. I welcome any comments here or at www.4570fan@Gmail.com Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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CTF, Ironic that you taught me about hBN, and now I can make some suggestions to you about PCP. Good and cheap: Harbor Freight Red powder-coat paint Airsoft plastic BBs (black, 0.25 gram) a one-pint plastic container of recycle-class 5, with a tightly closing lid, rescued from the trash a silicone cookie baking tray from Target or Walmart (they are good to 450*F only) Any questions? Rip ... a metal baking sheet to go under | |||
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Thanks for more great data, for THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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 I'm sure I will have several questions. Planning on starting this winter. Gotta move and build a house this summer. Actually. Logging and milling the lumber now. Gotta move and build next and have it buttoned up by freeze up. Busy busy busy. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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   [url=https://ibb.co/mHdqrbL] Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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 Gotta do it the Alaskan way ya know Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Alaska: America’s strategic reserve of self reliance. Much respect. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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That house-building sounds interesting, CTF. When I can't sleep I sometimes imagine myself building a log cabin. Sorry to have neglected this forum for the past couple of weeks, being in the Northern Territory trying to shoot buffalo. Finally got one but had to shoot at something beyond 100 yards (the 1/10th" bead seemed to cover most of the critter so I suspect distances can be deceptive on the flats sometimes). My host said I had blood coming out of its nose but I have to thank my mate for opening up with a .416 - maybe If I'd got that 458 WM I missed out on and put a scope on it ... | |||
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Irons a cool. But an optic makes things easier. . 1/10" , that's a pretty big bead. One thing Ill say about doing a house the way I am. Will sure show a guy his weaknesses. Or his age . But. I've always planned on doing it this way. Fall, limb and buck the timber. Log it, Mill all the dimensional lumber. Build our home from the ground up. When it is complete. The whole place will be sent free. So that's a blessing. Just a lotta work. Back to the 458 Win mag. If this was where I used to live. The Spruce King would be in a open top gun rack . On the handle bars of the 4 wheeler. Being in the Interior. I'm wearing my shortened barrel 480 SRH. As a side note question, ? What works good for scrubbing lead out of barrels? I managed to lead up the 480's barrel and haven't got it all out yet. Its being stubborn. Thanks. Mission Support ! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Sambarman; what were you shooting buffalo with ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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CTF, Congrats on the construction project. Hope it looks like a Cabela's with a green metal roof. I just had 163 feet of 8' tall cedar plank fence installed along one side of my back yard. I might finish the rest of the yard myself. Building a wall to make my back yard great again. Then of course I need a log cabin in the middle of it, with a green metal roof. 200 square feet of ground floor per building is all that code allows in my backyard, so I might need two of them, with lofts, and green metal roofs, of course. Some leading in your 480 SRH barrel, eh? Shooter's Choice "Lead Remover" or Shooter's choice "MC #7 Firearms Bore Cleaner" on patches and on a tight-fitting phosphor/bronze/copper bristle brush: Wet patch x 2 Wet brush x 10 back and forth strokes Wet patch x 3 Dry patch. Inspect bore. Repeat above if any lead streaks remain. Powder-coat-painting of cast lead bullets greatly reduces lead-fouling of the bore. I need to try some of my .476/525-grain FN-GC Red Death bullets in my 480 RBH. Subsonic with that bullet would be fun. | |||
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sambarman338, Congrats to you too, on success at water buffalo. Ol' Bubalis bubalis does have a tendency to bleed from the nose when mortally wounded by a chest shot. Your rifle was the 450/400 NE 3" DR from Heym, eh? Good as that rifle is, yes, iron sights with a huge bead at long range is a bit annoying for a hunter and the buffalo. You annoyed that buffalo very thoroughly. Well done. My first on a farm in KY just stopped in its tracks and bled from the nose after a 460 Weatherby 500gr RNSP (old factory load) exploded in its lungs at 25 yards. I had to get my .375 H&H featherweight from my gunbearer, Lemuel, and shoot it in the neck to get it to go down. Second one I shot at a game farm in Tennessee with a .416 Rigby at 150 yards. It proceeded to walk in tight circles until I walked up to within 50 yards to shoot it again. If you do not break big bone or spine or brain with that first shot, they will generally require some more shooting before they will go down, whatever the caliber. Rip ... | |||
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I was using my Heym 88PH (the funeral grade) in .450/.400, bought because it was the only calibre Heym had on hand when I was headed for Africa 10 years ago. The cartridge was the Hornady 400-grain DGS tropical load. I was using the solids because their softs seemed to open up a bit quick in a couple of scrub cattle-beasts I'd shot earlier in the trip. I've just put a mike on that bead and it is within a thou of 1/10th inch. It also has a spherical back edge that may have flared in the late afternoon sun from my left (risking shooting off laterally). You may be right, though - it is a large bead, at least compared with the one on my Miroku M86, which has a flat-face of only 0.065". My companions estimated the distance to be 100 yards yet that would indicate a bead coverage of only 10 inches on a critter, which I believe was facing me, about a yard wide. Perhaps because of flaring on the brass, the impression I got was that the bead covered at least two-thirds of the buff's width. As a compromise between the apparent distance and that perception, I reckon the buff may have been about 130 yards away, still a long shot with express sights. I was even tempted to flip up the second, U-notch leaf but thought that might be meant for 200 yards. | |||
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RIP; thank you for the cleaning advice . . When I get to Delta I will pickup some of that cleaning fluid . The stuff I have on hand works good on copper but not so good on lead. This winter I would like to know more about that Mega bullet ! Wow, I never heard of one that big ! Sambarman; One of the big reasons I prefer an optic is the sun. It is always rather low in the sky as I'm at a relatively high latitude. Seems to always be a shadow on one side of the bead or other. Had that forcefully proven to myself trying to figure out why my shooting was so far off one bright sunny day . When the day before ( raining steadily I had been spot on. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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CTF, Yep, noticed Wipe-Out was no good with lead too. And side-sun rays do play havoc with iron sights! Here is a styling suggestion for your new abode:     Did I say green metal roofs make a house into a lovely home? Rip ... | |||
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http://www.cartridgecollector.net/content/home http://www.cartridgecollector....58-winchester-magnum Headstamps said to be prototype .458 WIN: "3 Prototype loadings for the 458 Win Mag. The 2 no h/s variations are both early Winchester"     Rip ... | |||
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Delta is farm/ranch country. And since I really like them I will probably go with a Gambrel roof. Next year the house will get Skyline(Snap Lock ) green metal roofing. This year it will get green rolled roofing. Gotta keep everything in balance. Woodshed will get brown metal roof first year. Actually it will be half woodshed and half equipment shed/lumber drying shed. I'll be able to mill lumber through out the winter. This years camp house will become guest cottage when the house house is finished. Lots of lumber needed, hence the sawmill. Thanks for posting up the pics. I see the A-Square versions there. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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What's the story regarding the exploding bullet at the bottom? Would it just be a primer? | |||
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sambarman338, Yep, just a primer in the nose of a hollow point:  Good news. AA-2460 78.0 grains with the 543-grain FN-GC-PCP-HT gave 2265 fps from the 25" Shilen barrel of Bobbarrella today. That is 5-yard instrumental velocity. 75.0 grains of AA-2460 gave 2190 fps (average for 3 -shots) so it ought to be right about 2200 fps MV. And it was most accurate. Almost a cloverleaf. It has potential.  Velocity with H4895 78.0 grains was 2212 fps instrumental, 3-shot average. Accuracy not as good. 2200 fps and decent accuracy is a winner with a cast bullet. More later after chores. I'll milk this some more, for THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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Looks nice, RIP, and would be even prettier with a primer in the nose. | |||
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 Shredded card wads flying behind the bullet do confuse a chronograph. The 45-100 SWT was aborted today. It will just have to be about 2 grains bigger than the .458 WIN and use a wee bit more powder to compensate. I will have to pull the ones loaded with cardboard wads. Rip ... | |||
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No need to pull those Rip. Surely you have an old stump that needs shot. AA 2460 sounds like a good choice. Amazing that the under sized 458wm case can throw a 540+ grain bullet at 2200 FPS. Who knew? "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Fury01, Yep, who'd a thunk it!  You did tell me that cast bullets could be made to shoot in the .458 WIN, thanks. That AA-2460 load of 75.0 grains was only an 89% volumetric fill at that LongCOL of 3.600". Nice, rounded primers, no pressure signs. (75.0 grains of H4895 is a 99% fill). Due to its size and nose shape, the bullet was almost touching the lands. I might be able to shorten the COL to 3.340" and get same velocity with less powder. Accuracy might get better too, if I wasn't shooting with a 1-4x24mm scope with a 2-MOA illuminated dot reticle. My best load was equivalent to 1.7 MOA for three shots at 50 yards, with a dot bigger than the group, so I am hopeful. I also did not make use of the set-trigger function on the CZ, Bobbarrella, which I will do next time. For THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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My excuse for not quibbling about accuracy with cast bullets, yet:  | |||
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That is the scope that Cold Trigger Finger recommended. It is like a headsup display in a jet fighter. And the reticle still illuminates.  Clicks are precise and 350 MOA windage and elevation is there. Better than any iron sight. You will be hard pressed to find a clearer and quicker 2-MOA combat shooter scope.  The 3-9x40 Nikon shotgun scope and set-trigger use will surely shrink the groups. Rip ... | |||
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What I am making excuses for, is that this was my best 3-shot group yesterday:  The fouling shot went high, the next two were trying to get together, and lower, 2160 fps average for 3 shots. The second 3 shots were at higher instrumental velocity (2190 fps) and shot to lower POI still. There are those that refuse to believe the faster bullet may shoot lower, but it may happen. Same POA, no scope adjustment. Rip ... | |||
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That looks beautiful RIP ! Doesn't protrude aft of the cocking piece by much . How do you like the scope overall? How is the eye box ? I like how it sets on the CZ using the Seyfried Schick bases !! How is the eye relief on 4 power ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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A whippy barrel may start shooting higher with the next step up in charge, and then shoot lower again as the charge is increased further. Then maybe jump up to a different elevation plateau and maybe show windage changing as the powder charge increases further, etc. Accuracy nodes and barrel harmonics/vibrations/sinusoids in addition to barrel time of the bullet and barrel rise from recoil impulse? | |||
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