quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I wonder if there is any real reason for
the 300 gr TTSX 458 Win reloading data to be reduced
from the 300 gr TSX ?

I think they did that because the TTSX 300-grainer
is a longer bullet than the TSX 300-grainer,
yet they loaded it to a shorter COL,
just an artifact of where the multiple grooves/cannelures
ended up with the two different bullet constructions,
and their need to make them fit the SAAMI COL.
And was Barnes doing pressure tests?
They sure don't show it if they did.
That 300-grain TTSX if loaded just a little longer,
yet still fitting the 3.4" magazine,
is right at home at +2700 fps
in a 24"-barreled .458 Win.
Same should apply to that CEB that 4sixteen is showing above.

Rip ...

I used the Pac-Nor barrel weight calculator.
No.4 sporter contour in .458 caliber is 0.25 lbs
lighter than same contour in .395 caliber.
So, my 7.0-pound .395 H&H rebarreled to .458 Win.
might weigh 6.75 lbs dry.
That would be with a 23" barrel on a Pre-64 M70 action
with a Brown Precision Pounder stock,
QRW bases 8x40-ed and J-B Welded,
Lyman receiver sight, and NECG banded front sight
with hood and gold patridge/sourdough.

Rip ...

R ya gonna put a muzzle brake on it Ron ?

CTF,

That is a great idea.
A muzzle brake might bring the weight up to 7 lbs.
Also might turn that 23" barrel into 25" overall length,
and be useful for benchrest testing.
Alderella does not need the brake.
Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

RIP; how come no barrel mounted sling attachment ? Keeps the muzzle end from banging into and getting hung up on limbs and stuff when walking thru the brush.

Learned that trick from looking at pictures of rifles in Ross Seyfried articles almost 30 years ago.
It finally sunk in, and I quit doing barrel band sling bases.
The .358 STA never got the treatment because it is small bore unlikely to bite my hand, but it wouldn't hurt to do that one two.
The Brockman forend tip sling base is overkill,
using 4 screws in the barrel channel. I have those on a couple of rifles.

Alderella's simple forend tip stud (above)does have a nut on it, and is J-B Welded to the endoskeleton of the HS Precision stock.
It is secure.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Plus, they look cool

Having a barrel band stud just to look cool is kind of metrosexual.

Rip ...

i really like the explanation for that tool on the stock. i think i will do one on my mine. you are the second person i know talking about it.

I just got back from Eagle, Idaho, been posting from my cellphone for the past week.
Saw the Boise, Idaho Cabela's Gun Library.
Nothing left of the Elmer Keith "Museum" but a statue of him standing between some idealized elephant tusks,
and a pair of tusks flanking the entrance to the Gun Library, said to be Elmer Keith's tusks, his elephant's tusks, not those from his own mouth.
He was a "big little man" and carried a cigar well, and shot anything well,
including the .458 Win., which he thought was a fine cartridge,
regardless of what his protege Ross Seyfried believed.
Hopefully Ross will find enlightenment, akin to a religious conversion.

Speaking of conversions: Woodelle Whitworth was on the operating table when I checked on her today,
about to have chamber reassignment surgery,
from .458 Win. to .458 WinRuger.
Sort of like gender reassignment.
Poor thing.

Rip ...

Anybody ever shoot paper-patched bullets in the .458 Win.?
Just for plinking and squirrels and such, I wonder if .452" caliber handgun bullets could be patched to work in the usual .459"-diameter groove of the .458 Win.?
Just 2 more replies needed to finish off this page.

Rip ...

No bidding wars over this one, a PUSHFEEDER.
That is as sad as a Ted Williams model from Sears & Roebuck getting a $100 deduction versus the equivalent Winchester branded model of the same gun.


Lot 1059: First Champlin-Haskins Keith Grade Rifle SN 1, .458 Win Mag.
(Sold for $5,015.00)
The First Champlin-Haskins Keith Grade Rifle SN 1, in .458 Win Mag. (The Elmer Keith Estate Collection). Photo courtesy of James D. Julia Auctioneers, Fairfield, Maine, www.jamesdjulia.com.

Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/his...ction/#ixzz5N4ZEs25A

Rip ...

A pair of tusks and a big-little statue are all that is left in Boise.
The Californians are taking over!
This guy is NOT a Californian, but he did tell me a great joke about a Californian's interaction with a police officer in Boise:









Rip ...

From my Elmer Keith "Museum" tour guide, a long-time Idaho resident:

A Boise, Idaho police patrolman observed a car with California plates rolling through three consecutive stop signs.
So the police officer pulled the car over, blue lights flashing.
He spoke to the driver and asked why he had not been obeying the stop signs.
The driver said "I looked both ways and nothing was coming, and I slowed down at each stop sign. What is wrong with that?"
The police officer asked for license and registration and returned to his patrol car to run the usual checks, then returned to the California driver's car window, and asked him to step out of the car.
The California driver protested again, "Nothing was coming from either direction. What is wrong with just slowing down at a stop sign?"
"Sir, step out of the car, please" said the officer.
The Californian sighed and complied, opening his car door and stepping out.

The policeman then commenced to beating the Californian with his baton.
The Californian screamed "Stop! Stop!"
The policeman replied as the beating continued:
"Do you want me to stop or just slow down?"

Good thing Elmer never saw what has happened to Idaho,
or what happened to the Elmer Keith Museum,
or how little his .458 Win. rifle went for at auction.

Rip ...

True story that the previous post brought to mind:
A woman friend of my grandmother was driving and came to a stop sign. She almost but not quite stopped. the policeman stopped her and noted that at the stop sign she didn't stop.

Lady: But officer, I paused.

Officer: Well, you didn't pause long enough.
and then wrote out the ticket.


Considering how some things are going, it's probably a good thing that a lot of won't be around in several more years. Near as I can tell, eternal life is way over-rated, at least on this planet.

Good one, Ray.
The "California Rolling Stop Story" may be true also, just embellished a bit for the punch line, or the "clubbing line."

There are now reports of herds of feral goats wandering Boise, Idaho and the Treasure Valley area.
They are trashing the gardens and flower beds.
Must be Californian pet goats that got loose.

It suddenly dawned on me that the shortened H&H case for the .458 Win. was a revamping of the .425 Westley Richards.
All of the benefits of the short action application with none of the magazine-contraption complications.
The only reason for the severely rebated rim of the .425 WR was for use of 8x57mm Mauser stripper clips.
That was a plumb metrosexual, fashion-conscious move on the part of Leslie Taylor. Total screw-up of an otherwise excellent cartridge, the .425 WR,
not worth the complications.

Yes, the .425 WR was "The First Short Magnum" circa 1908, in reactionary competition with the 404 Jeffery circa 1905.
Then came the .458 Win. circa 1956.
The .458 Winchester "Short" Magnum ate the cake and still has the cake, the +5000 ft-lb, bigger bore, Short Magnum Cake.
Thanks be to the Winchester engineer who gave the LAW throat to the .458 Win.
Makes me wonder how the .425 WR was throated originally???

Rip ...

This suggests that the base of the .425 WR throat was as wide as neck-1, 0.4550".
That is 4.6% greater than bullet diameter of 0.435".
The base of the .458 Win. throat is 0.4690" while the reamer neck-1 is 0.4847".
The .458 Win. throat base diameter is only 2.4% greater than a 0.458" bullet.
SAAMI spec for the jacketed bullet is 0.459" maximum diameter.
At maximum bullet diameter, and minimum reamer diameter,
the start of the Leade-only-Acute-angled-Wide-based throat is only 2.2% greater than bullet diameter.
That is a tighter throat than the .425 WR had, by a factor of 2.
That is how the .425 WR could achieve so much with such a small case: The LAW throat increases effective case capacity like magic.
And I never heard any complaints about .425 WR accuracy.
Sumbuddy who know of such?

Rip ...

So the .425 WR is the Granddaddy to the .458 Win.
in more ways that just being a "Short Magnum" that works in an 8x57mm M98 or .30-06 M70 action.
A book review of GUN DIGEST 1981 is long overdue.
That contains an article by Jack Lott called

THE FIRST SHORT MAGNUM: THE 425 WESTLEY RICHARDS MAGNUM

Rip ...

Bravo, RIP! You found the historical precedent for the .458 Winchester throat you've been looking for! Wonder if there are any others?

bcelliott,

Thank you, thank you very much!
And in Afrikaans: Donkey, buy a donkey!

.425 WR leade angle: 0*30'00"
.458 Win. leade angle: 0*29'30"

About half a degree for both.

Rip ...

Perhaps some company should start making throating reamers with this basic design element for just about every caliber. I think my .300 Win Mag could really benefit with heavy bullets to start, especially if I lengthened my M70 box to 3.6".

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Perhaps some company should start making throating reamers with this basic design element for just about every caliber. I think my .300 Win Mag could really benefit with heavy bullets to start, especially if I lengthened my M70 box to 3.6".

Excellent idea.
I used to think a throat like on the .375 Wby was ideal for anything:
PSFB of one-half to just under one caliber length (about .370" long for .375-caliber) and only 0.0006" over caliber diameter, with a 1*05'20" leade angle.

Now I would just put a 0*29'30" leade-only throat on anything, and make it start on the case-mouth chamfer of the chamber at +2.2% diameter of bullet.

What both of those throats have in common is a not-so-abrupt leade angle.
The cone-angle of the leade is about 1 to 2 degrees for both.
The .375 Wby has about a 2-degree cone-angle per CIP.
The .425 WR has a 1-degree cone-angle on the leade, according to the Clymer reamer drawing on my 2003 printout from their website.
There is no CIP or SAAMI homologation on the .425 WR.
Rounded to the nearest minute of angle, the .458 Win. is also 1-degree cone-angle on the leade, per SAAMI and CIP.

Rip ...

That Clymer reamer for ".425 Westley Richards-Full"
maybe more FOOL than FULL.
It cannot be for the .435-caliber bullet:



Ah, well, it still might be the case that the .458 Win. got its throat patterned after the .425 WR which worked miracles with a limited case capacity and short COL.
The .425 Westley Richards Magnum was the first "Short Magnum."
Makes sense that Winchester engineering might look to it for a throating pattern for the .458 Win.
I hope someone with an original WR .425 WRM can check their throat and let us know if it is a long one.

I posted this on the .425 WR thread also.

Rip ...

Excerpts for book review purposes of the GUN DIGEST 1981, also illustrates the charm of a "short magnum" adequate for any DG situation,
like the .458 Win.:

One of Selous' comments stated that the .425 WR "... is a very powerful weapon and very accurate."

Book Review: GUN DIGEST 1981 is a fine book.

Rip ...

ALF,

Very interesting indeed, that Schuler's rebated cartridges were not housed in rifles with the spring-loaded magazine side-clips.

The only practical reason for the severe rebate on the .425 WRM was to allow it to use the 8x57mm speed-loader stripper-clips?

If the .425 WRM had used the .404 Jeffery rim diameter, it would have been excellent without the side clips.

I sure would like to find the original chamber drawings for the .425 WRM.
I have a hunch it had a 0*30'00" leade-only throat much like the .458 Win.
That is why the .425 WRM could perform out of proportion to its size.
Selous was impressed with its power and accuracy.
Just like a .458 Win.

Rip ...

A fire-formed case from the .458 Win.Ruger:



This was done by simply firing a Hornady .416 Ruger factory load in the rechambered Whitworth.
Brass length was maintained by this method.
If you just neck up a .416 Ruger, it shortens from 2.580" to -2.570".

Two cases were fire-formed to .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 WinRuger:

Brass length = 2.585"
Rim diameter = 0.5300"
Base diameter = 0.5305"
Shoulder diameter = 0.515"
Neck diameter = 0.485"
This cartridge has a 30-degree/30-thou "30/30" shoulder, more than adequate.

And the rifle that shoots it has a .458 Win. throat!

Rip ...

The rifle has the standard Mauser box with integral front wall that will not be dented by bullet noses in recoil.
A cross bolt was hidden in the forearm behind the factory-barrel secondary recoil lug, bedded in Steel-Bed epoxy.
A cross bolt was hidden between the magazine well and trigger well.
Timney trigger set at 2.75 lbs, breaks like a glass whisker.
Warne Maxima steel bases were 8x40-ed, and will be J-B Welded if they are not already.

A .395 Ruger Max reamer was used to do the chamber body, getting rid of the factory-ringed sides and belt recess of the "Cal. 458 Win." chamber.
A .458 Lott reamer was used to extend the .458 Win. neck to 2.590" minimum/2.600" maximum length.
The original .458 Win. leade-only throat was preserved, unchanged.
It will be effectively shortened by only 0.080" due to the brass extending to 2.580" instead of 2.500".

Rip ...

This used to be Woodelle Whitworth the .458 Win.:



Now she wants to be called "Woodie" the .458 WinRuger!

Yes, I am afraid she has gone transgender on me now.
She says she always felt like a male trapped in a female body!
And now she is bragging about getting rid of the stodgy old belt and having a fashionably sharp shoulder and short neck.
She is a fashion-conscious transgender "man" now!
Plumb metrosexual!
I suppose next thing HE wants is to have HIS barrel bobbed to 20 inches!
No way!

Rip ...

Alas, Woodie is no longer a .458 Win.
If I had my druthers she/he would have stayed that way.

Woodie only holds 2 in the magazine with the fatter cartridges.
A drop floor plate to add just 0.1" of depth would do nicely.
Woodie says it will give him a pot-belly look, just like me, not a pregnant look!

Or ... for the .425 WRM look:

MAUSER 98 TRENCH MAGAZINE

https://www.corwin-arms.com/pr...98-trench-magazine-2

... or ...
Mauser 98 Large Ring Magnum DBM

http://www.cdiprecisiongunworks.com/

Or:
http://sunnyhillgunparts.com/98mau.html
Or:
http://customgunandrifle.com/products/floorplates


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A fire-formed case from the .458 Win.Ruger:



This was done by simply firing a Hornady .416 Ruger factory load in the rechambered Whitworth.
Brass length was maintained by this method.
If you just neck up a .416 Ruger, it shortens from 2.580" to -2.570".

Two cases were fire-formed to .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 WinRuger:

Brass length = 2.585"
Rim diameter = 0.5300"
Base diameter = 0.5305"
Shoulder diameter = 0.515"
Neck diameter = 0.485"
This cartridge has a 30-degree/30-thou "30/30" shoulder, more than adequate.

And the rifle that shoots it has a .458 Win. throat!

Rip ...

You've done it! Congratuations on a nice looking cartridge.