Copy that. Splitting frog hairs...point being, a similar bullet diameter of the more common 458. Makes me want to hunt with a super high SD hard cast 458 at Mach 1.16.
I wish I had some of his ammo to measure and retronostalgize.

I too can now roll them about like a Victorian era English girl, but I use water to wet the patches, not spit.

A ready-made patching board is a bamboo cutting board from Walmart, yes I am a smelly Walmart Person and would love to let Peter Strok get a nose full of me:



The factory groove around the board is straight on the long sides, about 0.25" wide and 0.080" deep.
I have a "custom clipboard"
that needs a 1/8" wide and 1/8" deep grove:

I have a swaging setup to make these .458” (patched) bullets of whatever weight I may desire.
However, I am using very soft lead as I cracked my core die with alloyed lead.
Still, even a soft bullet will punch a nice hole in any game animal in North America.

I'm making 450gr slicks right now but can swage some heavier ones if either of you want to try some in your 458s.

HOLY HIGH RAG CONTENT!
Huvius, is that 9-pound onion skin paper?
Those are as good as any girl could do, British or American, I reckon.
I aspire to such perfection.

They say the old Sharps and Remington rifles that decimated the buffalo mostly used bullets that were sub-bore caliber and paper-patched up to only about bore diameter,
or only + 0.0005" greater than bore.
Some of those Old Reliables had shallow rifling maybe only 0.002" deep in the grooves instead of the modern 0.004" usual for jacketed bullets.
The shallow rifling would be easier to fill by obturation of hardened lead bullets.
It would be easy on the paper jackets too,
IIRC, papers could be wrapped left-hand twist and used in right-hand twist barrels,
and the paper patches would be shed nearly whole at the muzzle.
Deeper rifling and matching twist direction of paper and rifling shreds the paper into muzzle confetti, so they say.

Then there was Selous with his elephant & rhino killing .461 Gibbs with paper-patched hard and heavies.
No doubt it would handle anything in North America.

I am about to make some muzzle confetti with Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger using the 530-grain pure lead slicks.
I might have to find some Lyman #2 alloy bullets for paper patching after that.
Selous must have been using heat-treated wheel weights or bullets with some small amount of arsenic in them.

Rip ...

Music to my eyes from Paul Matthews, THE PAPER JACKET, pp. 23-24:

"This business of bullet diameter and shape is something that the average shooter usually doesn't consider until it is too late.
A few years ago I purchased a Ruger No. 1 chambered for the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge.
The chamber for this rifle is cut in accordance with SAAMI standards and is just about as perfect a production chamber as there is for cast bullets,
whether they are grooved lubricated or paper patched.
The .458's throat has a taper of slightly less than half a degree beginning at the end of the chamber and extending up the barrel for a bit better than one inch.

"I bought this rifle with the idea of using it with black powder, and it is superbly accurate when used in that manner.
But when I first loaded a handful of cartridges with 90 grains of FFFg behind a 500-grain plus paper patched bullet and hustled off to the range,
I failed to take into account the problem of black powder fouling. Obviously, with a clean barrel the first cartridge chambered with no problem,
but the second cartridge wouldn't chamber within 1/4 inch! (This was with bullets having an unpatched diameter of .450 inch.)

"Later I used a duplex load in this rifle consisting of 72 grains of FFg and 12 grains of SR-4759 with a 565-grain paper patched bullet
having an unpatched diameter of .450 inch. This load was quite accurate and gave no chambering problems at all."

Refer to Wall Winfer's handloading tips for the British Single Shot Rifles.
Duplex loading is highly recommended with paper patch bullets.
Fifty shots with no cleaning of barrel was claimed by someone, if not Winfer.
The black powder fouling is greatly reduced, and the paper patch prevents lead fouling plus removes the minor BP fouling.
Winfer reccomended using 12.5% to 15% of the original Fg weight in grains weight of SR-4759.
For the .450 BPE 3-1/4", 12.5% of 120 gr FG = 15 grains of SR-4759 starter charge.
Each grain of SR-4759 replaces 3 grains of Fg.
Thus the charge becomes 120 - (3 x 15) = 75 gr of FG plus the 15 gr of SR-4759.
Use a tissue or newspaper single-layer "wad" between the SR-4759 starter and the Fg, to prevent mixing.
Caution if using finer grades of BP, like FFg and FFFg.
Goex Fg is good stuff according to Winfer.

So, if 12 grains of SR-4759 is equivalent to 36 grains of black powder,
36 gr of BP-equivalent + 72 gr FFg = 108 gr BP eqivalent.
Matthews' duplexed BP .458 WIN load was equivalent to a Quigleyesque .45-108-565 Sharps BP load.

Rip ...

Or just use some AA-5744 and call it good for beginner paper-patched-bullet trial in a Ruger No. 1 chambered for .45-100-2.6-Inch Sharps Winchester Throat.
A duplexed-BP load, like with the Paul Matthews load, is next.

Rip ...

From Lyman's 50th Ed.:

Now, for THE MISSION, we home in on the one powder and bullet that all three of these "Nitro-For-Black-Powder" cartridges share in the Lyman data:

Can I beat Quigley with the .45-100 SWT?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
HOLY HIGH RAG CONTENT!
Huvius, is that 9-pound onion skin paper?
Those are as good as any girl could do, British or American, I reckon.
I aspire to such perfection.

Yes it is!
This particular paper is Kimberly Clark Neenah Onion Skin - Cockle finish 25% cotton.
Its typewriter paper from probably the '50s.
Getting quite hard to find these days. Old typing paper is one thing I always ask about at garage/estate sales.
Have to admit, I picked these three from a batch of 20 I rolled. Most weren't quite as nice...

very nice bullets

well done

Aye, Huvius does good work.

The loads for the .45-100 SWT will of course transpose directly into the ballistic twin .458 WIN.
Barrel twist rate (1:20" versus 1:14") is the only complicating factor, that might make one or the other better with a particular bullet at a specified velocity.

The available reloading data by Lyman that is most applicable is the Quigley cartridge:



Just as .458 Lott loads are starting loads for the .458 WIN LongCOL,
so are the .45-110 2-7/8" loads usable as starting loads for the .45-100 SWT.
But instead of loading to the same MAP in the former, bolt-action cartridges,
the modern single-shot can be loaded to double the pressures of the Lyman data.

About 50,000 psi seems a comfortable level for decent work with the .45-100 SWT.
530-grainers at about 1900 to 2000 fps from a 22"-barreled, 7.25-pound rifle should do a good job of knocking snot and enamel on both ends of the rifle.

When comparing 30"-barrel velocities to 22"-barrel velocities, using fast powders such as AA-5744 and H4198 with the 530-grainer,
QuickLOAD indicates a velocity change of about 12 fps per inch over that 8" range.
Less than 100 fps will be lost in going from 30" to 22".
Using a medium-fast powder like H4895 results in about 14 fps per inch change over that eight inch range, only a little over 100 fps change.
That is very similar to the 15 fps per inch average change for a .458 WIN from 20" to 28" barrel length,
about 10 fps per inch above 24" length,
and about 20 fps per inch below 24" length.

Assuming a COL of 3.697" in the .45-100 SWT with 530-grain PP bullet:

AA-5744 52.0 grains (71% fill, no filler) >>> 22" MV = 1888 fps // 30" MV = 1985 fps <<< 50,503 PSI

H4198 59.3 grains (81% fill, use filler) >>> 22" MV = 1902 fps // 30" MV = 2000 fps <<< 50,433 PSI

H4895 73.0 grains (96% fill, no filler required) >>> 22" MV = 1998 fps // 30" MV = 2108 fps <<< 50,458 PSI

Of course QuickLOAD does not make allowances for throat,
except to warn that a load with bullet touching the lands when chambered will add 8000 PSI to start pressure.
Should be interesting to see how close the actual chrono data is to the predicted in this case,
the Starline .45-2.6" case.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

This particular paper is Kimberly Clark Neenah Onion Skin - Cockle finish 25% cotton.
Its typewriter paper from probably the '50s.

Must be the cockle finish that is the trick.

Paul Matthews has stated that velocities up to 2200 fps are good with paper-patched bullets.

"QuickLOAD" says these two loads in the .45-100 SWT with 22" barrel should stay safely below that limit with the 530-grainer:

COL: 3.797"
ReLoder-17 charge = 85.9 grains (100% fill) >>> 2187 fps <<< 60,000 PSI

COL: 3.697"
ReLoder-17 charge = 83.1 grains (101% fill) >>> 2164 fps <<< 60,000 PSI

That would probably knock more than enough snot and enamel off of my end of the rifle.
Not just for kicks, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

"QuickLOAD ON Paper" ballistics for the .458 WIN LongCOL with this 530-grain paper patched bullet tops out with RL-17:

.458 WIN LongCol with MAP 62,500 PSI
COL = 3.597"
25" barrel length
ReLoder-17 charge = 82.7 grains (103% fill) >>> 2228 fps <<< 62,409 PSI

Uh-oh, too fast, so back off to this:

ReLoder-17 charge = 81.0 grains (101% fill) >>> 2188 fps <<< 58,325 PSI

There. That might keep the .458 WIN LongCOL below 2200 fps with the 530-grainer.
But, of course, QuickLOAD is not very reliable for throating effects.

Rip ...

The Donald Dallas book ALEXANDER HENRY Rifle Maker took 9 days to cross the pond to my home.
It is a treasure trove. A HUGE book, with a blue-ribbon book marker bound in the spine.
No. 570 in a limited edition of 750 copies.
Autographed to me "With best wishes" by the author, signed on 5th May 2019.
Then another signature below that date looks like a "Richard Brown" ? ...
Oh, yes, the great-great grandson of Alexander Henry,
astutely aware of his famous ancestor.
Talk about a research assistant!
Likely the source of "family photos" and more!
Yep, there is more than one photo of Alexander Henry.

Donald Dallas did a great job on this book.
A Boxer-Henry .450-bore straight taper cartridge started off about 1865
and was refined into the .458 WIN.
That was the .450 Boxer-Henry straight-taper cartridge by Alexander "Muhammad Ali" Henry.

Rip ...

Top corner of jacket back flap:

The book is so huge it will not fit a full page on the scanner:

Jacket front flap, two images spliced together:

Jacket back flap bottom corner:

The puzzle solved: Picture was made in 1870, inscribed to commemorate events of 1859.

This is the same guy, when a bit younger, as seen on page 239 of the 328-page Donald Dallas masterpiece,
ALEXANDER HENRY Rifle Maker
wearing just a few of his shooting contest medals:


Joseph Whitworth
Alexander Henry
John Rigby
James A. Watts
Them, they were giants.
And upon their shoulders the .458 Winchester Magnum was built.
It took only about a century to perfect,
starting with a muzzleloader in 1852, there arrived a shooting .458 WIN in 1955, tested by General Hatcher in November of that year.
Commercially released in mid 1956, and the rest is history too.

Rip ...

This thread has not "jumped the shark."
THE MISSION is only just now getting started.

Rip ...

starting the next 458 on a zastava left hand action

it will be a J.P. Smithson PH special



first shot

the doner rifle

Bravo!

Very interesting!

Does it have a 3.4" box now, like on the factory .458 WIN or .30-06 Whitworth?

Or is it starting off with a 3.6" box, like on a factory .375 H&H Whitworth?

If the former, it could be made very special indeed by having Mr. Smithson open it up for .458 WIN LongCOL Sinister-Handed, with a 3.6" box length:
All the charm of a SAAMI .458 WIN and capable of more muzzle whump than a SAAMI .458 Lott when needed for chest-beating purposes.

Rip ...

Written by Jack Lott in 1971, THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, January & February 1972,
about the time he dreamed up the .458 Lott:
"Why Magazine Big-Bore Rifles are Best"

Here lies praise for the .458 WIN, .450 Watts Magnum, and .450 Ackley Magnum, before the .458 Lott me-too.
Also there is condemnation of .425 WR and .500 Jeffery rim rebates,
and calling of BS on John Taylor's claim of weak magazine springs in the .425 WR rifles by WR,
i.e., failure to recognize the real problem: rim rebate.
Here lies a claim that F. C. Selous disliked double rifles (probably especially the .425 WR DR).
Recall that the Selous .425 WR bolt-action rifle "discovered" at an auction in Las Vegas was one without the spring-loaded, rear-of-magazine, feed-rail side-fingers:
Not a "Best Quality" WR .425 WR.
That might explain why Selous put away the .425 WR bolt action in favor of the .256-bore plus .450-bore rifles.

Rip ...

Rip-- its in the shop now-- so will need to measure it to see--

factory box and safety will be replaced w swift bottom medal and a custom belly pan, cut here in the shop to get it to 5 down one up

even the barrel will be changed out and the trigger

then the safety is to be a granite mountain shroud safety-- left hand

just the 98 action and bolt

bolt handle may even be cut off and replaced

stradling,

Cutting to the chase:
Are you going to limit it to SAAMI COL in a 3.4" box?
Is this your rifle or a rifle for a less learned rifleman?
There is no correct answer, it is all good for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

For THE MISSION: